Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 106 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3151 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 10:26 AM
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^Play around with gain structure may help. I had hiss on my high sensitivity mains with a Crown XLS amp until I got the gains set "correctly" for my situation.
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post #3152 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 12:27 PM
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Feel sorry for @COACH2369 . Frohlich bought JBL 4722n then Coach bought JBL 4722n. Frohlich finally went active on his 4722n and was surprised how much the upper range improved. Quite sure Coach has already been on the phone tracking down a set of Crown amps. LOL!

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post #3153 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 12:59 PM
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^Play around with gain structure may help. I had hiss on my high sensitivity mains with a Crown XLS amp until I got the gains set "correctly" for my situation.
I played with amp gain on the crown and it doesn't change the hiss at all. I was hoping that would be a nice quick fix as well.

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Feel sorry for @COACH2369 . Frohlich bought JBL 4722n then Coach bought JBL 4722n. Frohlich finally went active on his 4722n and was surprised how much the upper range improved. Quite sure Coach has already been on the phone tracking down a set of Crown amps. LOL!
Coach and I have been in constant contact recently. I have been poisoning his mind for the last few weeks
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post #3154 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 01:04 PM
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Feel sorry for @COACH2369 . Frohlich bought JBL 4722n then Coach bought JBL 4722n. Frohlich finally went active on his 4722n and was surprised how much the upper range improved. Quite sure Coach has already been on the phone tracking down a set of Crown amps. LOL!
Actually, it was via email. Who uses the phone these days?

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I played with amp gain on the crown and it doesn't change the hiss at all. I was hoping that would be a nice quick fix as well.



Coach and I have been in constant contact recently. I have been poisoning his mind for the last few weeks
True....
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post #3155 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 01:14 PM
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I played with amp gain on the crown and it doesn't change the hiss at all. I was hoping that would be a nice quick fix as well.
Does reducing the speaker levels in the receiver help any?

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post #3156 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 01:28 PM
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It unfortunately does not. I have played with the amp gain , the master volume on my 8802 and the individual level control in my 8802 and it doesn't change one bit...always the same volume hiss. I believe it is heavily related to speakers naturally high sensitivity and that taking them active makes the sensitivity even higher because the external crossover is removed from the chain.
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post #3157 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 01:34 PM
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I played with amp gain on the crown and it doesn't change the hiss at all. I was hoping that would be a nice quick fix as well.
Bummer, seems a mixed bag on noise issues. Some have the problem and some dont. Lots of potential variables.

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post #3158 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 01:39 PM
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It unfortunately does not. I have played with the amp gain , the master volume on my 8802 and the individual level control in my 8802 and it doesn't change one bit...always the same volume hiss. I believe it is heavily related to speakers naturally high sensitivity and that taking them active makes the sensitivity even higher because the external crossover is removed from the chain.
What about going into the DSP and lowering the level there? Is that an option?

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post #3159 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:08 PM
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It unfortunately does not. I have played with the amp gain , the master volume on my 8802 and the individual level control in my 8802 and it doesn't change one bit...always the same volume hiss. I believe it is heavily related to speakers naturally high sensitivity and that taking them active makes the sensitivity even higher because the external crossover is removed from the chain.
Don't most guys running active throw resistors on their CD's to knock down the hiss? You lose sensitivity but you'd certainly have enough power to make up for it with those amps.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post22841820
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post #3160 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:09 PM
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Try a lower noise xlr cable if you don't have one, worked for me.
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post #3161 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:10 PM
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Don't most guys running active throw resistors on their CD's to knock down the hiss? You'd certainly still have enough power with those amps.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post22841820

Off topic, how does the JBL seos compare to the eminence?
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post #3162 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
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Don't most guys running active throw resistors on their CD's to knock down the hiss? You lose sensitivity but you'd certainly have enough power to make up for it with those amps.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post22841820
Thank you for the suggestion. I am not familiar with that process so I will have to read up on how that is executed.

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Try a lower noise xlr cable if you don't have one, worked for me.
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you have a specific brand you use. I ordered my hosa xlr from amazon so I would think that would already be a pretty reputable build quality.
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post #3163 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:28 PM
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Don't most guys running active throw resistors on their CD's to knock down the hiss? You lose sensitivity but you'd certainly have enough power to make up for it with those amps.
That's what I would do in this case. Plenty of amp power and resistors should cause no degradation of sound.

It's easy to have the gain structure incorrect too though. Good suggestion above.

If you hear the hiss with only speakers connected to amp and nothing connected to the amp on the input side then the amp is the cause of the noise (noise floor is just too high). Padding the compression driver will lower the noise floor an equal amount.

When I ran my BMS 118db 1w/1m sensitive comp drivers off my CT-875 amplifier I was able to turn down the input gain enough to make it livable (Crown CT amps are very quiet amps - best ones I've owned). However I wish I ran some resistors also to bring the noise down even more. Had plenty of power in the amplifier.

Someone else ran some tests in another amp thread here and determined that the DSP inside the amplifiers (inuke in the case of his testing) added a lot of noise. He bypassed the dsp by wiring directly to the amp boards and the noise was significantly reduced (or so he claimed). Although you lose the dsp. Point being the dsp circuitry added a lot of noise to the signal.

Also in another JBL thread it was mentioned that the M2 compression driver is 24ohm (IIRC) and it was done that way on purpose to reduce the noise from the crown amps designed to go with that system. The 4367 which uses a passive crossover has an 8-ohm version of the same compression driver. Just food for thought.

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post #3164 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 02:38 PM
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Thank you for the suggestion. I am not familiar with that process so I will have to read up on how that is executed.



Thanks for the suggestion. Do you have a specific brand you use. I ordered my hosa xlr from amazon so I would think that would already be a pretty reputable build quality.

I have hosa, monoprice, and canare and like the canare best. Mogami is really good but more expensive. If you have noise with them the amp has a too high of a noise floor for your speakers.

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post #3165 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 07:06 PM
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I have hosa, monoprice, and canare and like the canare best. Mogami is really good but more expensive. If you have noise with them the amp has a too high of a noise floor for your speakers.

Thank you. I just ordered one Canare Quad XLR cable from Amazon. Just a fun experiment to see if it changes anything. I am guessing this is amp induced hiss and not some sort of interference being picked up by the XLR cable itself but who knows. Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised.
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post #3166 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 07:12 PM
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You could also try taking a wire with bare ends and touch to the case of your receiver (back) and to the case of the amp (back) to see if that alleviates the hiss any. Could also try a cheater plug that removes the ground just to rule that out as well. Just some random things to try that wouldn't cost much and would help to narrow the issue down if it is any sort of ground loop issue.

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post #3167 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 07:32 PM
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In the past I always had a slight hum from my speakers and the quietest was always a receiver which never had a 3 prong plug. I had a Sherbourn processor and a sunfire amp using balanced cables and it was as quiet as my receivers. I am using the Inuke amps now which has a much higher noise floor than my sunfire and with monoprice XLR cables to the Marantz I have a slight hiss at the cd, the Canare star quad cables have zero noise and the lowest background to date. So either the cables helped, the Marantz is unbelievable, or the Inuke has a lower noise floor than I thought. Now I am using 96 dB sensitive speakers so using 112 dB CD's already will be louder. The Mogami XLR cables claim to lower noise by 10-20 dB so it can't hurt. If I had noise with the Canare I would have tried the Mogami as everything helps. I know from experience the dynamics seem a bit more with an active setup. I bet due to the higher sensitivity however if the noise floor rises it will cancel each other out.
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post #3168 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 07:48 PM
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So I must confirm what I have heard from other's here on AVS about running speakers in an active configuration.. Running the 4722 off DSI amps is very nice combo. I just switched yesterday. I was expecting the midbass to really kick it up a notch and that was my expectation going in on where I might notice the difference but I actually think the best characteristic is the HF driver performance. I can tell right away if I like a change/upgrade by how much I am drawn in to wanting to listen to music (I am 99% HT but have a few blue ray concerts I love to watch/hear) and with the DSI amps some of those songs sound fabulous. Very happy I made the move.

My only critique of the change is the hiss I get at idle with no signal playing. Its not ground loop hum...it sound nothing like that. I believe it is probably a combination of the amp and the super high efficiency speaker. It is audible from my chair and can't be heard as soon as content comes on but still one of this things that will nag me going forward
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^Play around with gain structure may help. I had hiss on my high sensitivity mains with a Crown XLS amp until I got the gains set "correctly" for my situation.
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Does reducing the speaker levels in the receiver help any?
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Bummer, seems a mixed bag on noise issues. Some have the problem and some dont. Lots of potential variables.
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You could also try taking a wire with bare ends and touch to the case of your receiver (back) and to the case of the amp (back) to see if that alleviates the hiss any. Could also try a cheater plug that removes the ground just to rule that out as well. Just some random things to try that wouldn't cost much and would help to narrow the issue down if it is any sort of ground loop issue.
I talked about this a couple of months ago when I got my DSi amps running active (temp setup in spare bedroom). It is not a cable, gain structure or anything else. It's simply the noise floor DIRECTLY to the 110db+ sensitive compression driver. LTD02 looked into it and advised me to purchase autoformers from Bob Crites speakers. I think it was $35 for one so chump change for our systems Anyway we can get them in -3db, -6db, -9db, -12db increments and I think he said they go directly inline just before the CD. We will be attenuating just the CD as we don't want to attenuate the woofer section. I honestly don't know how it all works and John will probably respond to this issue again I imagine.

Technically we lose a little headroom from our HF section/compression driver but it's pointless because none of us will ever use half of it's SPL capabilities.

I checked everything and it does make noise with simply the amp plugged in to the speaker and nothing else. I will probably go the route of just attenuating the CD...

@LTD02 , I can't remember...How exactly is it connected? I imagine inline on both positive and negative sides so I assume it has two terminal connections on each side of the auto former? Can you confirm the exact model again and I will order

http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html

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post #3169 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 07:58 PM
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As far as the active performance of the DSi amp running the Harmon developed 4722 Bi-amp preset is does have SQ impact. The upper end is extended a bit more and gives a nice touch IMO, I like it more than passive. But if one simply wants that they can use any form of PEQ to try and achieve this. Active does have it's superior performance to passive in every way but maybe one could argue it's mostly inaudible? I don't claim to know all the "why's" on why it's better and honestly when pursuing my LCR/amp future config I was personally drawn by the fact these amps were made for these speakers with Harman researched presets. It is a plug and play approach if you want to set and forget it with the 4722 preset. But if you download Audio Architect you have more control over the speaker than passive in active.

I am sure when it comes time to dial everything in I will have more praise for the setup. But even now I have no regrets. Yep these speakers never need more than an AVR to power them but most of us that buy these, JTR, Seaton, DIYSG speakers, Danley's, etc we usually buy or have more powerful amps so why not these? The noise issue is easily overcome and we get absolute control over the mains.

I will order the autoformers and be the test dummy Just need to confirm the exact ones to get again...
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post #3170 of 7396 Old 01-26-2016, 09:28 PM
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When you lower the cd sensitivity with auto formers you are basically turning it into a biamped passive speaker. Having separate power will not matter because all the power goes to the woofers anyways as the CD uses very little. IMHO you lose all the advantages of active padding down the CD. I bet if you do that it will sound no different than with JBLs network which pads down the CD!
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post #3171 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 07:15 AM
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Like I said I don't know to claim the why...Can you get specific why it is negative to do this? Why is it becoming "essentially a biamped passive speaker?"

And since we agree it sounds better active what exactly is going on with the CD in active vs. passive? It would seem the CD is "set free" a tad more with it's upper end sweetness.

One of my room goals is to get back from the speakers as far as I can, like 12ft at least...
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post #3172 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 08:43 AM
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I am not sure why but the differences are sensitivity and if you pad that down more than the set crossovers in the amp then it loses sensitivity. When people say upper end I would like to see the differences in measurements. The speaker will extend to 18khz either way based on the components used. Unless the crossover in the network screws something up the differences become sensitivity once again. The 4722N measures very well with the network so again, sensitivity which helps with dynamics.
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I am not sure why but the differences are sensitivity and if you pad that down more than the set crossovers in the amp then it loses sensitivity. When people say upper end I would like to see the differences in measurements. The speaker will extend to 18khz either way based on the components used. Unless the crossover in the network screws something up the differences become sensitivity once again. The 4722N measures very well with the network so again, sensitivity which helps with dynamics.
If I had to guess I would say it's something different in the 6-10khz range with the 4722 preset but I don't claim to have trained ears
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post #3174 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 08:51 AM
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But doesn't the Crown DSi amps DSP control the crossovers, EQ filters, delay, output limiting,etc... So wouldn't most of those variables still be controlled by the DSi DSP regardless whether or not not you pad the HF?
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post #3175 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 08:53 AM
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When you lower the cd sensitivity with auto formers you are basically turning it into a biamped passive speaker. Having separate power will not matter because all the power goes to the woofers anyways as the CD uses very little. IMHO you lose all the advantages of active padding down the CD. I bet if you do that it will sound no different than with JBLs network which pads down the CD!
Not true. A simple pad on the CD doesn't go near as far as a true passive crossover that deals with many more things than just attenuation. Yes, every crossover pads the top end to match up with the bottom, but where a passive has issues that are improved on by going active are all in the area of phase shift/time alignment etc that is negatively effected. A pad would not do any of this, and good crossovers don't have huge issues with this in the first place.

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post #3176 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 08:54 AM
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But doesn't the Crown DSi amps DSP control the crossovers, EQ filters, delay, output limiting,etc... So wouldn't most of those variables still be controlled by the DSi DSP regardless whether or not not you pad the HF?
That's where Im thinkin, you pad the cd, well now you aren't going to have a flat FR anymore, you would have to compensate for it by cranking the gain in the amp on whichever channel the CD is hooked up to. You can't just pad and leave everything else as-is.
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post #3177 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 08:56 AM
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the advantage of the autoformer approach is that it effectively raises the impedance of the c.d. instead of padding it down as would happen with a resistor. as a result, there isn't really any excess power that is lost to heat (but this may not be significant in a home setting). therefore, at least in theory, there are no effects other than to reduce the voltage sensitivity. so...same sound, less noise.


the active mode has different settings for the crossover slopes as well as different eq and that is probably where there is the largest advantage. there isn't a whole lot published on active vs. passive but i posted results of a study a while ago showing clarity was improved with active, at least in the test cited. there were also some subjective comments made by one of the lead designers at Harman that switching from a passive to active system yield a tighter bass response, but that was on a speaker with a big inductor on the woofer, so not terribly surprising.


the autoformers that we discussed were the model 3636, which allows for 1-12db of attenuation in 1db steps. i confirmed with bob the problem, the theory for the solution, and the model of autoformer. that said, i'm not aware of anyone who has actually put them on the 4722 (2432) c.d.
http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html

jbl has a mini-crossover to pad down the c.d. on their flagship m2 for the same purpose.
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That's where Im thinkin, you pad the cd, well now you aren't going to have a flat FR anymore, you would have to compensate for it by cranking the gain in the amp on whichever channel the CD is hooked up to. You can't just pad and leave everything else as-is.

that's right. each db of padding requires that the level in the amp on the cd to be increased by a db to keep the response the same.


essentially headroom is being traded for a lower noise floor. with a 109db 1w1m c.d. and 500 watts of power or whatever the dsi amp is there is so much headroom that will never be used that trading off some for a lower noise floor is a 'good trade'--something that will never be noticed is lost for something that is obvious gained.
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post #3179 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
That's where Im thinkin, you pad the cd, well now you aren't going to have a flat FR anymore, you would have to compensate for it by cranking the gain in the amp on whichever channel the CD is hooked up to. You can't just pad and leave everything else as-is.
Was thinking the same thing. If you pad the HF then anything above the crossover (HF driver) would be down as many DB as the pad dictates and would have to be manually adjusted for.

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the advantage of the autoformer approach is that it effectively raises the impedance of the c.d. instead of padding it down as would happen with a resistor. as a result, there isn't really any excess power that is lost to heat (but this may not be significant in a home setting). therefore, at least in theory, there are no effects other than to reduce the voltage sensitivity. so...same sound, less noise.


the active mode has different settings for the crossover slopes as well as different eq and that is probably where there is the largest advantage. there isn't a whole lot published on active vs. passive but i posted results of a study a while ago showing clarity was improved with active, at least in the test cited. there were also some subjective comments made by one of the lead designers at Harman that switching from a passive to active system yield a tighter bass response, but that was on a speaker with a big inductor on the woofer, so not terribly surprising.


the autoformers that we discussed were the model 3636, which allows for 1-12db of attenuation in 1db steps. i confirmed with bob the problem, the theory for the solution, and the model of autoformer. that said, i'm not aware of anyone who has actually put them on the 4722 (2432) c.d.
http://www.critesspeakers.com/autotransformers.html

jbl has a mini-crossover to pad down the c.d. on their flagship m2 for the same purpose.
Thank you, you are a wealth of knowledge
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post #3180 of 7396 Old 01-27-2016, 09:04 AM
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Beast, that is what I was trying to say, the DSP in the crown has all the EQ and crossovers built in to be flat and individually powered so adding a pad to lower the top end will screw that up. If LTD02 is right then the autoformer may work as long as it does not mess with the response of the DSP.
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