Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 161 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4801 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I can't wait to order three of the waveguides from the 4722 for my Frankenspeaker build. The horn is big, has poor spouse acceptance factor, and is not the latest and greatest design. But it does measure really well and I count performance as most important.
The big horn is great. There aren't that many other horns that I'd want to use. The big waveguide gives good pattern control down to lower frequencies.

Also, I made sure to clean up the inlets of the waveguide, they weren't totally perfect, but are now.

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post #4802 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am seeing a pattern here. The people who actually own the M2 have better manners than the fanboys who dont
Yeah, and the owners/prospective owners of 4722's shouldn't have to tolerate irrelevant posts attempting to undermine them.

(ex JBL 3632 owner)
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post #4803 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The big horn is great. There aren't that many other horns that I'd want to use. The big waveguide gives good pattern control down to lower frequencies.

Also, I made sure to clean up the inlets of the waveguide, they weren't totally perfect, but are now.
Rasp or 120grit sand paper?

Were these just small imperfections that you cleaned up for a smoother exit or transition?

I know my other JBL horns have mold marks that I had gotten rid of with some sand paper. These didnt take much to get rid of them. Although these are smaller plastic waveguides.
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post #4804 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Rasp or 120grit sand paper?

Were these just small imperfections that you cleaned up for a smoother exit or transition?

I know my other JBL horns have mold marks that I had gotten rid of with some sand paper. These didnt take much to get rid of them. Although these are smaller plastic waveguides.
yeah just small casting crap. I used a round file. Dremel with sandpaper might have been quicker, but I didn't want t take the horns off the enclosures. I didnt want little plastic sebits sent flying around my room.
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post #4805 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 07:40 PM
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There are many speakers that play loud!
There are many speakers that sound great!
There are not many speakers that can due both!

I would consider the 4722 as one of them, and the M2. Now that is a considerable gap, I would think JBL has made some in between? No? The 308 and 708 most likely sound awesome but not at cinema reference levels so in the view of the avsers who want reference levels they will not qualify. I owned some awesome sounding Triads that played music beautifully, I then watched some movies on them(5.1) and I blew the tweeter in every one. Quality just went bye bye. Talk about application and yet many use them for HT. Not for me. Now I am not talking the newer Platinums or golds as they would be loud enough. I have blown up surrounds as well so I never agree with people who say any surround would work. I never play above reference and my room is small.
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post #4806 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I am going back to the ignore list before I get an infraction. I apologize to the others for my rant.
I was very surprised that you got those 4722's to work so well as surrounds. I was a real doubter given their proximity to your seating position but there is no substitute like someone actually trying this in the real world. As I recall, it was someone with the smarts at JBL who said it would work.....and yet if you go by the info posted in several places, it really shouldn't. It just goes to show.

I actually have the CD's and horns for the 4722's as well as the dual 165H mids from my 3632's. My cinema was only up for a short while before it had to be dismantled due to changing circumstances.

I am a fan of those mids in the 3632/3732 but I was always a little critical of the HF section in my 3632's. The 3632 HF has the 2418H drivers....hardly a JBL engineering masterpiece.

The thing is, if I do this all over again - and I want to, I likely wouldn't go to the 4722. I would want to keep those 3 ways up front. But I would want to change out the HF driver.

Notnyts work was great because it showed that an improvement can be made with the 2453H-SL drivers. And relatively cheaply too.
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post #4807 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikas View Post
I was very surprised that you got those 4722's to work so well as surrounds. I was a real doubter given their proximity to your seating position but there is no substitute like someone actually trying this in the real world. As I recall, it was someone with the smarts at JBL who said it would work.....and yet if you go by the info posted in several places, it really shouldn't. It just goes to show.

I actually have the CD's and horns for the 4722's as well as the dual 165H mids from my 3632's. My cinema was only up for a short while before it had to be dismantled due to changing circumstances.

I am a fan of those mids in the 3632/3732 but I was always a little critical of the HF section in my 3632's. The 3632 HF has the 2418H drivers....hardly a JBL engineering masterpiece.

The thing is, if I do this all over again - and I want to, I likely wouldn't go to the 4722. I would want to keep those 3 ways up front. But I would want to change out the HF driver.

Notnyts work was great because it showed that an improvement can be made with the 2453H-SL drivers. And relatively cheaply too.
If its not too much to ask, can you let me know when you get it all up and running again?

I dont think mine will be done anytime soon but mine will be a collaboration of parts to make mine fit in my room.
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post #4808 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The waveguide is not going to make up the differences that I heard. Sorry.
...
this one is actually a little tricky. the m2 waveguide is broader (120 deg vs 90 deg) and a design goal was to optimize the consistency of the response as one moves off axis in a little bit different way than constant directivity.


this picture tries to show what is going on (not too successfully to my eye).







what it is trying to show is that the actual response of the waveguide is quite similar not just in shape but in output level across a wide angle. in some ideal theory, the radiation would be uniform in power in all directions.


with a constant directivity horn, such as the 2384 in the 4722, the high frequencies (the blue and the purple) remain roughly the same flattish shape, but lower in output as one moves off axis. that is great. easy on the brain, but identified as reflections, not part of original sound. the strawman speaker on the left shows the blue dips significantly off axis while the purple remains high. that is just a speaker without constant directivity to begin with.


anyway, with a near constant *output* in all directions, the sweet spot is broadened and the imaging is enhanced. in a reverberant room where the listener's brain is trying to integrate all of the reflections along with the direct sound, when the reflections are all of the same shape and amplitude, the brain doesn't try to "reject" some of them while "accepting" others--they all make sense and so all contribute to the image effect.


obviously the larger waveguide in the m2 (compared with the 708 or even the little guys) holds this effect to a lower frequency. just about everybody who owns the m2's or who has heard them in a reverberant room has commented on their ability to image a big soundstage that expands out past the speakers as well as in between them. anecdotal I know, but indicative of the theory actually working.


the measurements that you showed where the larger cd's beat out the m2 cd (d2430k) for low end extension, distortion, and your comments on subjective sound quality are solid (and much appreciated btw), but hitting on different aspects of overall performance than what I suspect Gooddoc was referring to in his comment about the m2 horn.


as for the comment about "refinement", it might be worth noting that adding the second woofer increases output by about 6db. viewing the second woofer as merely an "output" device though may miss some of the benefits. since distortion scales roughly at twice output (i.e. each time output increases by about 3db, thd will increase by about 6db, very roughly speaking), this means that the second woofer could also be viewed as a "refinement" device where for any given spl level, the distortion is reduced by about 12db.


the m2 is designed to be usable almost nearfield though, so a full range second woofer is not practical or desirable.


in the sweet spot in a non-reverberant room, smooth and consistent frequency response with low distortion and minimal power compression is the ante and they both bring that to the table (ironically, the largish open rooms/auditoria where the m2's are frequently demoed may not actually reveal one of their primary advantages). damping the ti phragm (or going whole hog on beryllium) takes the 4722 to the next level and appears to put the two on at least equal footing there or even giving the advantage to the 4722. in a semi-nearfield and/or reverberant room, the m2 with its more uniform power response may provide a better experience. maybe each one brings a little something different to the show and depending on what the application/environment/constraints/budget is one may be a little better than the other.

peace.
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post #4809 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikas View Post
I was very surprised that you got those 4722's to work so well as surrounds. I was a real doubter given their proximity to your seating position but there is no substitute like someone actually trying this in the real world. As I recall, it was someone with the smarts at JBL who said it would work.....and yet if you go by the info posted in several places, it really shouldn't. It just goes to show.

I actually have the CD's and horns for the 4722's as well as the dual 165H mids from my 3632's. My cinema was only up for a short while before it had to be dismantled due to changing circumstances.

I am a fan of those mids in the 3632/3732 but I was always a little critical of the HF section in my 3632's. The 3632 HF has the 2418H drivers....hardly a JBL engineering masterpiece.

The thing is, if I do this all over again - and I want to, I likely wouldn't go to the 4722. I would want to keep those 3 ways up front. But I would want to change out the HF driver.

Notnyts work was great because it showed that an improvement can be made with the 2453H-SL drivers. And relatively cheaply too.
The biggest issue I had with the side surrounds was the sensitivity. Audyssey is limited to a -12 gain setting, which was still too high for the 4722 in close proximity. @frolich was awesome and sent me two attenuaters which solved my problem. Multi-channel music and surround effects sound great even at the close distance. I don't detect any imaging issues. It was Andrew Kapas who is the lead rep on the Pro Cinema Line that told me they would image within the short distance. I am not saying I would recommend sitting 4.5 feet from the L/C/R but they work great for surrounds. @dgage is coming over in a couple of weeks, so it will be nice to get some objective feedback on the room.
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post #4810 of 7396 Old 06-04-2016, 09:58 PM
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Using zero EQ I am curious to see how the 2452-SL with Be sounds compared to the D2 on the M2 horn. Although from a 2384 standpoint I think we found the answer already.

The biggest test for me will be to see how the 2452-SL Be diaphragm sounds compared to the Beyma TPL-150. Means nothing to most but I absolutely love the TPL's even though I wish they could crossover much lower on a 2384 size horn. BUT from what I gather from other's posts it sounds like the Be bridges the gap between the AMT and normal CD. Time will tell.
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post #4811 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 01:12 AM
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2452H-SL with Be will require a different crossover or EQ. 2452H-SL and 2453H-SL are drop in otherwise.
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post #4812 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 07:37 AM
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Hello folks!

So much knowledge and insight being shared on this thread, it's been a great read. I took the plunge and ordered the 4722 waveguides from ProSound (PN #365359-001) and realized the part where the CD is supposed to mount to is missing (see images). Anyone have any thoughts? Did I forget to order something?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!
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post #4813 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 07:47 AM
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http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/The...s/4722N-HF.pdf

I dont see any other attachment for the CD in the pdf. On the pdf you can clearly see the mounting holes for the CD's. Hopefully someone else will chime in that can help.

When looking at the 3722 pdf it looks like that CD is a screw on perhaps. So are you sure you ordered the correct horn?
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/The...es/3722-HF.pdf

It looks like they sent you 365359-002. At least to me.

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post #4814 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 08:08 AM
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Good catch, it really does look like the 365359-002. The box it shipped in references both part numbers but my packing slip/invoice indicates it should have been 365359-001.

After a six week wait time, looks like a possible mixup from their Tijuana warehouse. Going to msg ProSound, thanks chrapladm!
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post #4815 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 08:25 AM
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No problem. Here to help. PLUS from your picture I dont know how anyone is supposed to know which is which. Also a bit scary because if I order from them and get sent the wrong part I will be quite upset. Shipping back and forth from Australia is not cheap.

SO I hope everything works out for you.
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post #4816 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 08:32 AM
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Me too Will keep you posted how this all works out. Thanks again!
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post #4817 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 08:40 AM
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So, check it out guys! I have proof that your speakers are no good and should never used in a in home environment!! Discuss!!!

Wait... what's with all the backlash... maybe you aren't ready to understand how much smarter I am than you?
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post #4818 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 08:51 AM
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LOL, well I only buy according to what people tell me is a good speaker. I never have to look at measured response shapes, time domains or anything else. Carp if it works for you it works for me. Preach preach.
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post #4819 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the measurements that you showed where the larger cd's beat out the m2 cd (d2430k) for low end extension, distortion, and your comments on subjective sound quality are solid (and much appreciated btw), but hitting on different aspects of overall performance than what I suspect Gooddoc was referring to in his comment about the m2 horn.

....in the sweet spot in a non-reverberant room, smooth and consistent frequency response with low distortion and minimal power compression is the ante and they both bring that to the table (ironically, the largish open rooms/auditoria where the m2's are frequently demoed may not actually reveal one of their primary advantages). damping the ti phragm (or going whole hog on beryllium) takes the 4722 to the next level and appears to put the two on at least equal footing there or even giving the advantage to the 4722. in a semi-nearfield and/or reverberant room, the m2 with its more uniform power response may provide a better experience. maybe each one brings a little something different to the show and depending on what the application/environment/constraints/budget is one may be a little better than the other.

peace.
Thanks for the thoughts, as always, much appreciated.

I'd just like to add though, that when referring to the horns, I think it's important to remember the M2 waveguide was literally designed specifically around the D2 CD. From conception and up through the many, many months of horn and crossover iterations tested and refined with not only comprehensive measurements, but extensive blinded listening tests. Everything about that horn is meant to wring every last bit of performance from that CD. As well, JBL engineers are very convinced that the M2 horn reduces distortion and cancellations(meaning introduced by the horn itself) dramatically compared to a horn design like the 4722, which may be the primary reason why the M2 is so appreciated in the critical listening environment of a studio.

I have a lot of respect for what Notnyt has done with the CD testing in the 4722 horn, and I think it is a great thing for 4722 owners. And I also don't doubt that the 4722 with the upgraded drivers is an amazing speaker that, as pointed out by LTD02, may very well be superior to the M2 in certain applications. I think it's awesome actually that a speaker in this price range is being repurposed and modified for awesome SQ and performance. I have no regrets regarding my M2 purchase and I also have absolutely no desire to knock another speaker. I do like discussing measurements and I am fully bought into Toole and Olives research, so that I think can sometimes come off as a fanboy for the M2 since it is really the first flagship speaker to represent the fruits of that research. Discussing their research often seems to come around to the M2 at some point, and I can understand the disgust with that .

Either way, I do not participate in this thread to push the M2 or turn the discussion there, but I am an M2 owner, so I will discuss it when the topic turns to it or it's drivers .
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post #4820 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 10:19 AM
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I have no problems with measurements and such, they don't lie. The biggest problem for me is if you a two people in a room and one prefers the 4722 over the M2 or vice versa do you tell them they are wrong or they don't know what good sound is? Really? The drivers themselves have a distinct tonal quality that some may or may not prefer whether if the speaker is perfectly designed or not. We can't tell them their opinion is wrong because measurements say otherwise. That will be the day I own a better measured speaker that sounds not as good as another because people tell me so. Now, there is a flip side where people are listening to compressed, distorted sound and say their speakers can play reference easily. It is very hard to convince someone what they are hearing is not the recording but a distorted version. Of course this is not the case with the 4722 vs M2. BTW if someone has the ability and prefers the M2 then it is worth it to buy it.
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post #4821 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 10:29 AM
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Just a note, the sound differences weren't tonal in any way when I was comparing. Everything was EQ'd the same and was hard to distinguish. The 4" CDs were just cleaner. You could tell mostly with the transients and when there was a wide dynamic range. For example rim hits, or acoustic guitar. I think the differences are mostly in the time domain, and perhaps the 4" drivers can reproduce the dynamics a little better. The sound is just clearer/cleaner, and even more so with the Be.
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post #4822 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 10:39 AM
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What Doc is saying is that the D2 driver was built for the M2 horn and lets not forget the DSP used in their amps, without both you are not hearing what is intended. The speaker is always greater than the sum of it's parts. I have no doubt the 4 inch CD's can play louder and cleaner, they are 130 dB plus CD's and they can be crossed lower but they will not extend as high. I doubt many here can even pick out when there are frequencies beyond the 4 Inch CD's capabilities, just like low frequencies, the audible range will dominate but at least the lower frequencies create a feel as well.
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post #4823 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I have no problems with measurements and such, they don't lie. The biggest problem for me is if you a two people in a room and one prefers the 4722 over the M2 or vice versa do you tell them they are wrong or they don't know what good sound is? Really? The drivers themselves have a distinct tonal quality that some may or may not prefer whether if the speaker is perfectly designed or not. We can't tell them their opinion is wrong because measurements say otherwise. That will be the day I own a better measured speaker that sounds not as good as another because people tell me so. Now, there is a flip side where people are listening to compressed, distorted sound and say their speakers can play reference easily. It is very hard to convince someone what they are hearing is not the recording but a distorted version. Of course this is not the case with the 4722 vs M2. BTW if someone has the ability and prefers the M2 then it is worth it to buy it.
No doubt Mk! Preference is king. And besides preference, there is value, which is a judgement of preference and cost.
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post #4824 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Just a note, the sound differences weren't tonal in any way when I was comparing. Everything was EQ'd the same and was hard to distinguish. The 4" CDs were just cleaner. You could tell mostly with the transients and when there was a wide dynamic range. For example rim hits, or acoustic guitar. I think the differences are mostly in the time domain, and perhaps the 4" drivers can reproduce the dynamics a little better. The sound is just clearer/cleaner, and even more so with the Be.
I don't doubt what you heard on the 4722 horn, and if I were looking to upgrade a 4722 I wouldn't use the D2. But I think the M2 would compete with whatever you're hearing with the upgraded CD's in the 4722 .

I would love to do a well done blind comparo on the two though. That would be fun. All I'm saying is we need to be comparing designs, not CD's .
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post #4825 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I don't doubt what you heard on the 4722 horn, and if I were looking to upgrade a 4722 I wouldn't use the D2. But I think the M2 would compete with whatever you're hearing with the upgraded CD's in the 4722 .

I would love to do a well done blind comparo on the two though. That would be fun. All I'm saying is we need to be comparing designs, not CD's .
I know you love your M2s, but I honestly don't think so. You need to hear them side by side. This isn't something a waveguide is going to change. I've heard the M2, not in the best of situations admittedly, and obv not side by side. It sounded very good, but I think the high end 4" CDs are where its at. The D2430K sounded quite similar to other 3" CDs I tested, but smoother. It was definitely the best 3" CD I've heard.

I went into the testing with great expectations for the D2430K. I thought it was going to be king. Objective and subjective testing showed otherwise.

Last edited by notnyt; 06-05-2016 at 11:12 AM.
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post #4826 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by N.Yang View Post
Hello folks!

So much knowledge and insight being shared on this thread, it's been a great read. I took the plunge and ordered the 4722 waveguides from ProSound (PN #365359-001) and realized the part where the CD is supposed to mount to is missing (see images). Anyone have any thoughts? Did I forget to order something?

Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

looks like a mixup. the horn on the 3730 uses the 2414 which is a threaded/screw-in compression driver (as compared with a bolt on). the part numbers are the same except for -002 vs -001.







edit: I didn't read far enough forward to see this had been answered already.
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post #4827 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 11:17 AM
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So, check it out guys! I have proof that your speakers are no good and should never used in a in home environment!! Discuss!!!

Wait... what's with all the backlash... maybe you aren't ready to understand how much smarter I am than you?
Hey bud, long time no see. I hope your 215s are still treating you awesome. I do need some help...which douche nozzle are you talking about?
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post #4828 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 12:52 PM
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kind of amusing example of how refinement bears no relationship to refinement. :-) check out the performance of the "IMP--image model projectors" lol.

http://www.avsite.gr/forum/data/atta...6b3a6bd8a8.pdf




Spoiler!
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post #4829 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
kind of amusing example of how refinement bears no relationship to refinement. :-) check out the performance of the "IMP--image model projectors" lol.

http://www.avsite.gr/forum/data/atta...6b3a6bd8a8.pdf




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post #4830 of 7396 Old 06-05-2016, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I know you love your M2s, but I honestly don't think so. You need to hear them side by side. This isn't something a waveguide is going to change. I've heard the M2, not in the best of situations admittedly, and obv not side by side. It sounded very good, but I think the high end 4" CDs are where its at. The D2430K sounded quite similar to other 3" CDs I tested, but smoother. It was definitely the best 3" CD I've heard.

I went into the testing with great expectations for the D2430K. I thought it was going to be king. Objective and subjective testing showed otherwise.
I would love to hear them side by side...blind.

My guess is that those new CD's are not going to make the 4722 measure as good as the M2 spins. And if the M2 spins are still superior, and I was going to bet, I would bet with the research, not your ears. Nothing personal . You could be a 14%'er, how would I know? . The science is strong here, with very high statistical confidence levels, which is why those measurements are no longer just a pet project of Toole and Olive's, but an industry standard.
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