Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 46 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1351 of 7499 Old 08-02-2015, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Let me poise a question to my JBL brethren. I have 4722's across the front in L/C/R. For the rears, I am thinking either two more 4722's in a 5.2 setup or (4) 3677 in a 7.2 setup. I have heard the 3677 personally and although they aren't in the league of the 4722 they are still incredibly dynamic speakers. I am thinking Dirac can EQ them to being pretty close especially considering they will be in the back portion of the room, which is 30' long. So do I go for an exact match with (2) surrounds or go with (4) that are close. As much as I like a perfect match, I think (4) 3677 could make a killer rear sound stage. Thoughts?
Cinemas do t use them for surrounds. You would want s bit more vertical dispersion. Surrounds should be 2' above your head at 90 or 110 degree. If you want big Inwould go with the surround JBL just came out with. Thing looks mean and it's very sensitive as well. 8530 or something?
the read channels won't ever need that much of a speaker but, I like excess. so if you can make the placement work correctly go 4722.
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post #1352 of 7499 Old 08-02-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
With Atmos/DTS:X, they have brought the surrounds down to the floor. I will be using SCS 8 for the ceiling. I may just use SCS 8 for all rear/up channels but I have gotten used to having large surrounds and the 8" woofer will seem thin.

Sounds like you already made your decision.
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post #1353 of 7499 Old 08-02-2015, 02:44 PM
 
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Thin how ? Extension ?
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post #1354 of 7499 Old 08-02-2015, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Let me poise a question to my JBL brethren. I have 4722's across the front in L/C/R. For the rears, I am thinking either two more 4722's in a 5.2 setup or (4) 3677 in a 7.2 setup. I have heard the 3677 personally and although they aren't in the league of the 4722 they are still incredibly dynamic speakers. I am thinking Dirac can EQ them to being pretty close especially considering they will be in the back portion of the room, which is 30' long. So do I go for an exact match with (2) surrounds or go with (4) that are close. As much as I like a perfect match, I think (4) 3677 could make a killer rear sound stage. Thoughts?
If possible always go with matching speakers for all channels. Their soundstage is seamless for HT and multichannel music with high quality matching speakers is a downright soul moving experience.

I've heard numerous surround sound setups and just throwing left overs or inferior designs in the surrounding channels cheapens and diminishes the surround experience.
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post #1355 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 04:38 AM
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Talking

Hi

A question for you smart guys, what are the minimum distance from the JBL 4722N to the mlp, I'm asking because I will only have 11 -12 feet, so can I get the most out of the 4722N or do I have settle for the 3677 or 3252?

Looking forward to your replays

Best Regards

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post #1356 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 05:02 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
If possible always go with matching speakers for all channels. Their soundstage is seamless for HT and multichannel music with high quality matching speakers is a downright soul moving experience.

I've heard numerous surround sound setups and just throwing left overs or inferior designs in the surrounding channels cheapens and diminishes the surround experience.
I don't think it matters. It's more important to match the speaker to application. If you need to mix brands or use a different model to maximize that it's ok.

In this case the 4722 is 50 degrees vertical with 30 down and 20 up. Then it's 90 degrees wide. That's usable for a front stage.

For a surround you wouldn't want the same thing. His choice of SCS8 was intelligent, becuase it's 120 degrees.

Speakers are about application.
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post #1357 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 05:30 AM
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Thank you, for the quick replay

BR

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post #1358 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
With Atmos/DTS:X, they have brought the surrounds down to the floor. I will be using SCS 8 for the ceiling. I may just use SCS 8 for all rear/up channels but I have gotten used to having large surrounds and the 8" woofer will seem thin.
I would look at 9320: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...0#.Vb9t1pNVhBc A 12" mid for surround should keep up fine for surround. Since they are angled down, you would mount them a little higher than ear level. Coverage is 120 degrees wide and 60 degrees vertical, so careful height placement is needed. -3db point is 50hz.

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post #1359 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 06:58 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I don't think it matters. It's more important to match the speaker to application. If you need to mix brands or use a different model to maximize that it's ok.

In this case the 4722 is 50 degrees vertical with 30 down and 20 up. Then it's 90 degrees wide. That's usable for a front stage.

For a surround you wouldn't want the same thing. His choice of SCS8 was intelligent, becuase it's 120 degrees.

Speakers are about application.
Most people have never heard a setup of all matching speakers. Especially a setup of large speakers around the room. Small surrounds which simply "keep up" don't compare. People always doubt me on this because they have never heard it. Spec sheets will not tell the story on this.

I've heard a atmos display this year. It does not compare to what I've experienced in a setup with matching speakers. Not even close. All the knowledge on this website yet no one except for cs snow has ever tried what I'm saying before simply dismissing it.

A setup of five matching speakers like the 4722ns will fill a large space, pressurize a large space, and give a truly immersive multichannel music experience that leftover hosh posh speakers and inferior design surrounds will never match be they hung up high, placed at a special specific angle, or otherwise.
LTD02, MKtheater, moosifee and 1 others like this.

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post #1360 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Most people have never heard a setup of all matching speakers. Especially a setup of large speakers around the room. Small surrounds which simply "keep up" don't compare. People always doubt me on this because they have never heard it. Spec sheets will not tell the story on this.

I've heard a atmos display this year. It does not compare to what I've experienced in a setup with matching speakers. Not even close. All the knowledge on this website yet no one except for cs snow has ever tried what I'm saying before simply dismissing it.

A setup of five matching speakers like the 4722ns will fill a large space, pressurize a large space, and give a truly immersive multichannel music experience that leftover hosh posh speakers and inferior design surrounds will never match be they hung up high, placed at a special specific angle, or otherwise.

I agree, I have 9 matching speakers now.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #1361 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Most people have never heard a setup of all matching speakers. Especially a setup of large speakers around the room. Small surrounds which simply "keep up" don't compare. People always doubt me on this because they have never heard it. Spec sheets will not tell the story on this.

I've heard a atmos display this year. It does not compare to what I've experienced in a setup with matching speakers. Not even close. All the knowledge on this website yet no one except for cs snow has ever tried what I'm saying before simply dismissing it.

A setup of five matching speakers like the 4722ns will fill a large space, pressurize a large space, and give a truly immersive multichannel music experience that leftover hosh posh speakers and inferior design surrounds will never match be they hung up high, placed at a special specific angle, or otherwise.

Years ago I used outboard crossovers and ran a sub on all five channels, so that all five channels were nearly full range. Then I also had a dedicated sub. Problem was the subs were small and the f3 on each channel was around 30hz. Means each channel was not truly full range. System worked better with speakers set to small and using a 40/50hz crossover. Now if you had true full range speakers that had an f3 below 20hz, then I think it would be great, but that takes a lot to have that for all five or seven speakers.

I think you are ahead to use speakers that use large drivers, but they only need to cover below 80hz, then cross over to multiple subs. My mains cover down to 40hz. My surrounds use 10" drivers and cover down to 80hz.
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post #1362 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 10:36 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Most people have never heard a setup of all matching speakers. Especially a setup of large speakers around the room. Small surrounds which simply "keep up" don't compare. People always doubt me on this because they have never heard it. Spec sheets will not tell the story on this.

I've heard a atmos display this year. It does not compare to what I've experienced in a setup with matching speakers. Not even close. All the knowledge on this website yet no one except for cs snow has ever tried what I'm saying before simply dismissing it.

A setup of five matching speakers like the 4722ns will fill a large space, pressurize a large space, and give a truly immersive multichannel music experience that leftover hosh posh speakers and inferior design surrounds will never match be they hung up high, placed at a special specific angle, or otherwise.
My comments were more about application, dispersion, directivity index, etc...

Being appropriate to application is the most important. I want different things from overheads than from fronts, and still perhaps different things from surrounds.

SCS8 is appropriate to surrounds and overheads, much more than 4722 so therefore it will work and sound better.

Also- using identical speakers is mostly a myth. You can't timbre match surrounds. They don't sound the same, even using identical speakers, when they are above you or behind you or the side of you- as they do from in front. This has to do with psychoacoustics and how the brain processes sound, and even the shape of the ear. You hear things behind you over above you differently than in front of you. So mix and match surrounds to LCR isn't such a big deal, and likely worth it to get an application specific match up.

If using identical speakers also matches up the application well then sure, but that rarely happens and in that case if it does not abandon the identical aspect is a smart move instead of using an identical speaker that is less ideal.
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post #1363 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 04:32 PM
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I'd have to disagree with not wanting the surrounds to be the same as LCR. Surround channels are full range just like the fronts. They aren't less important. Reminds me of people who use a cheap center to go with much better left and right speakers. 90 or 120 degrees horizontal? As long as you can cover the listening position I wouldn't say 90 is wrong. Of course you can argue movie theaters don't do this (same speakers all around) but in our home theaters if we can do it why not? If done right you would probably prefer it. Music cd's in 4.0,5.0 or 5.1 you really want the same speakers all around to maximize the experience.
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post #1364 of 7499 Old 08-03-2015, 08:31 PM
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Years ago I used outboard crossovers and ran a sub on all five channels, so that all five channels were nearly full range. Then I also had a dedicated sub. Problem was the subs were small and the f3 on each channel was around 30hz. Means each channel was not truly full range. System worked better with speakers set to small and using a 40/50hz crossover. Now if you had true full range speakers that had an f3 below 20hz, then I think it would be great, but that takes a lot to have that for all five or seven speakers.

I think you are ahead to use speakers that use large drivers, but they only need to cover below 80hz, then cross over to multiple subs. My mains cover down to 40hz. My surrounds use 10" drivers and cover down to 80hz.
I am planning something similar. I have 3 old Mirage crossovers (LFX-3 and 2 LFX-2's). I have 2 Danley DTS-10's for nearfield LFE and will have subs at each corner and center. Left rear sub will handle left rear and left side bass, right rear sub same for its area. LCR will have dedicated subs. I could also spread LFE around to the 5 main channel subs.
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post #1365 of 7499 Old 08-04-2015, 04:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Most people have never heard a setup of all matching speakers. Especially a setup of large speakers around the room. Small surrounds which simply "keep up" don't compare. People always doubt me on this because they have never heard it. Spec sheets will not tell the story on this.

I've heard a atmos display this year. It does not compare to what I've experienced in a setup with matching speakers. Not even close. All the knowledge on this website yet no one except for cs snow has ever tried what I'm saying before simply dismissing it.

A setup of five matching speakers like the 4722ns will fill a large space, pressurize a large space, and give a truly immersive multichannel music experience that leftover hosh posh speakers and inferior design surrounds will never match be they hung up high, placed at a special specific angle, or otherwise.

Dispersion. You mentioned envelopment. 120 degrees circular on the SCS8.
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post #1366 of 7499 Old 08-04-2015, 04:48 PM
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5.1 with ~90 degree controlled directivity speakers in the corners can place a phantom image any where in the room--you get good front rear imaging in the same way that you get left right imaging (at least acoustically as that isn't really the way our heads/hearing works). it has been the standard at imax for some time now (they add a center height speaker, but I'm not sure how much use that one actually gets).


they have a movie, that while annoying, actually does a half decent job explaining why such an arrangement is better than the typical "bank of surrounds" approach: https://www.imax.com/about/experience/sound/

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post #1367 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 06:16 AM
 
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5.1 with ~90 degree controlled directivity speakers in the corners can place a phantom image any where in the room--you get good front rear imaging in the same way that you get left right imaging (at least acoustically as that isn't really the way our heads/hearing works). it has been the standard at imax for some time now (they add a center height speaker, but I'm not sure how much use that one actually gets).


they have a movie, that while annoying, actually does a half decent job explaining why such an arrangement is better than the typical "bank of surrounds" approach: https://www.imax.com/about/experience/sound/
We are an IMAX approved design firm There exists a home IMAX program.
It's not cheap.
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post #1368 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 03:08 PM
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We are an IMAX approved design firm There exists a home IMAX program.
It's not cheap.

i'm aware of that. their speaker arrangement for imax home is rather anemic. perhaps it was driven by consumer/installer design preferences.


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post #1369 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 03:13 PM
 
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There is some variation to what you posted, but alas it's off topic.
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post #1370 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 06:33 PM
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There is some variation to what you posted, but alas it's off topic.

yeah, that's just what imax has on their 'imax home' website though.


4722n's in a basic 5.1 would seem to be the superior arrangement. is there any reason why that doesn't work?

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post #1371 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 09:54 PM
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So I got the DSS subs installed but my room required me to have them at about 1/4 out from the walls on each side to get the best room response. I previously had them L/S/C/S/R with the 4722s toed in at the sides of the room but I got a terrible null in the 60hz range. Now I have them S/L/C/R/S. The issue I have now is that all three will have to be practically touching or the screen frame will go down the middle of the L and R speakers. Does anyone have all three behind their screen? The 120" screen is 109.3 " wide and each speaker is 36"wide. I may be able to move the subs to the rear of the room but that will remove and option of running 4722's as surrounds. I guess all of them behind the screen will mimic the theater and keep the sound anchored to the screen.

Edit - I think I am just going to move the subs to the rear and go with smaller surrounds. I think the sound stage is too tight and these 4722s need some space to breath.
Molon_Labe - pay attention to the DSS thread next week for a potential solution to your issues as Coach will have all 3 of his 4722s and his pair of custom Mariana 24s behind a 120" screen. I need some demo subs to ship around to GTGs so we could definitely work out a deal for the 4722 version of the Mariana 24s.

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post #1372 of 7499 Old 08-05-2015, 11:35 PM
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i'm aware of that. their speaker arrangement for imax home is rather anemic. perhaps it was driven by consumer/installer design preferences.


Is that a 7.1 or 5.1 (with side surrounds and rear surrounds playing the same sound in an array)?
AFAIK, IMAX is all about having just a pair of surrounds at the rear corners.
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post #1373 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
My comments were more about application, dispersion, directivity index, etc...

Being appropriate to application is the most important. I want different things from overheads than from fronts, and still perhaps different things from surrounds.

SCS8 is appropriate to surrounds and overheads, much more than 4722 so therefore it will work and sound better.

Also- using identical speakers is mostly a myth. You can't timbre match surrounds. They don't sound the same, even using identical speakers, when they are above you or behind you or the side of you- as they do from in front. This has to do with psychoacoustics and how the brain processes sound, and even the shape of the ear. You hear things behind you over above you differently than in front of you. So mix and match surrounds to LCR isn't such a big deal, and likely worth it to get an application specific match up.

If using identical speakers also matches up the application well then sure, but that rarely happens and in that case if it does not abandon the identical aspect is a smart move instead of using an identical speaker that is less ideal.
I cannot really argue any of your comments. Some things though:
*The SCS8 is not a proper horn speaker (the 8" midwoofer is the "horn") like the 4722 is. Hence I question what it's claimed 120° coverage actually means. Does it really sound the same @ +/-60° as on axis in the way a proper designed horn speaker does?
*In a Atmos setup, the Surrounds are @ listener level (4' according the guidelines), same as LCR, as in the ITU whitepapers (which are more musically oriented than THX) for multichannel surround. This means the limited vertical coverage of the horns in speakers such as the 4722 is not an issue, no more than for LCR duties. Likewise, the 120° vertical coverage of the SCS8 is not needed (it might even cause more unwanted early reflections.
*Last but not least: there's also the matter of proudly ownership of a truly over the top sound system. The 4722 will not sound 3x better, but they are 5x more impressive than the SCS8!

As for ceiling speakers: coaxial speakers like the SCS8 win, period. It's impossible for a 90°x60° horn speaker, big or small, to cover a wide listener area under the various angles needed in Atmos.

It's the room, stupid!
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post #1374 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 03:31 AM
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I cannot really argue any of your comments. Some things though:
*The SCS8 is not a proper horn speaker (the 8" midwoofer is the "horn") like the 4722 is. Hence I question what it's claimed 120° coverage actually means. Does it really sound the same @ +/-60° as on axis in the way a proper designed horn speaker does?
*In a Atmos setup, the Surrounds are @ listener level (4' according the guidelines), same as LCR, as in the ITU whitepapers (which are more musically oriented than THX) for multichannel surround. This means the limited vertical coverage of the horns in speakers such as the 4722 is not an issue, no more than for LCR duties. Likewise, the 120° vertical coverage of the SCS8 is not needed (it might even cause more unwanted early reflections.
*Last but not least: there's also the matter of proudly ownership of a truly over the top sound system. The 4722 will not sound 3x better, but they are 5x more impressive than the SCS8!

As for ceiling speakers: coaxial speakers like the SCS8 win, period. It's impossible for a 90°x60° horn speaker, big or small, to cover a wide listener area under the various angles needed in Atmos.
As an owner of 4722N for L/C/R duty and SCS 8 for Atmos, I can tell you that each is an impressive speaker in their own right for their intended purposes. I did try the SCS 8 as main L/R speakers one day just for fun and while it did "well" for such a small speaker it wasn't even in the same ballpark as the 4722N when used as main L/R speakers. Just my two cents
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post #1375 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 10:49 AM
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Is that a 7.1 or 5.1 (with side surrounds and rear surrounds playing the same sound in an array)?
AFAIK, IMAX is all about having just a pair of surrounds at the rear corners.
looks like a 7.1.

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post #1376 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 06:02 PM
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Give me a call to discuss or shoot me an email. I am all ears.
Here's a quick mockup I did of what we're building for Coach. Goal was to fit within 120" screen without the screen blocking the horns as well as to ensure the horns were in the same plane.


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post #1377 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Also- using identical speakers is mostly a myth. You can't timbre match surrounds. They don't sound the same, even using identical speakers, when they are above you or behind you or the side of you- as they do from in front. This has to do with psychoacoustics and how the brain processes sound, and even the shape of the ear. You hear things behind you over above you differently than in front of you. So mix and match surrounds to LCR isn't such a big deal, and likely worth it to get an application specific match up.

I respectfully disagree based on my subjective experiences. I know that Toole says the sound characteristics are automatically heard differently when they are behind you vs in front of you so it is immaterial because we will hear it differently regardless --- but my experience are that is beneficial and a fortunate situation when possible. For Dolby Digital or DTS based console or PC games it is beneficial as voices and objects pan frequently speaker to speaker with the movement or facing of your character. With mismatched speakers, crossover points are often different and that factor alone can provide for some discombobulating panning in something such as a voice or object movement in gaming (when the subs are run a bit hotter than mains - as is pretty typical in these parts ) . For music with all channel stereo it is also beneficial when all speakers match/sound identical as you walk around the room or face any particular speaker's direction --- IE cleaning up or moving about my theater room with the stereo on. I've had several different systems at this point, and my current all matching speakers have tangible advantages over my previously mismatched, but reasonably capable speakers before them --- especially in the two mentioned situations ---


But I think we find common ground in the point that if you can have matching front three, and matching rear four, that's also perfectly acceptable, and reasonably optimal to save on cost, space, or better integrate differing speaker styles to one's space. For the fixed cinema experience -- looking forward with the rear four speakers behind you matching I'm not sure you would ever notice much difference assuming all seven speakers are equally capable and of similar design.
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(13) JBL CBT 70j-1 | Denon x7200wa | Sherbourn PA 7-350 amplifier | (8) Ultimax 18" sealed subwoofers | (4) iNuke DSP 6000 amplifiers | (4) MB Quart 12" subwoofers mounted direct mounted to Berkline theater chairs BOSS style | Epson 5040UB Projector | Jamestown 144" acoustic transparent 2.35:1 screen w/ Seymour XD fabric

Last edited by Archaea; 08-07-2015 at 09:27 AM. Reason: changed along to alone in the first paragraph.
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post #1378 of 7499 Old 08-06-2015, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Here's a quick mockup I did of what we're building for Coach. Goal was to fit within 120" screen without the screen blocking the horns as well as to ensure the horns were in the same plane.

have you set them up and measured/listened to them that way? the horn is asymmetrical vertically and iirc the forward lobe is tilted down slightly. not sure if that will cause a problem with the speaker/listener geometry in his setup or not.

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post #1379 of 7499 Old 08-07-2015, 03:26 AM
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Here's a quick mockup I did of what we're building for Coach. Goal was to fit within 120" screen without the screen blocking the horns as well as to ensure the horns were in the same plane.

I am looking forward to getting everything setup this weekend and expect the results to be very pleasing.
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post #1380 of 7499 Old 08-07-2015, 05:24 AM
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discombobulating panning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
With mismatched speakers crossover points are often different and that factor along can provide for some discombobulating panning in something such as a voice or object movement in gaming
discombobulating panning

Never heard that tong-breaking expression before, but I know exactly what you mean

Sure, same speakers sound different in different positions, but that even goes for the center vs L/R.

It's the room, stupid!
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