Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 65 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1921 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 01:20 PM
 
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I am not going to bothering quoting but here is a few thoughts why I disagree:

First, below the Schroeder frequency the room does dominate, if you want to talk about response below that you need to consider the room or the conversation is pointless. It's physics. Big waves, small rooms- lots of problems. That is why measurements are so much better, they remove that part so you can get a more accurate idea of performance. Reproducing great bass in small rooms has, and probably always will be most troublesome. You don't seem to agree on this premise, and I think it causes much of the other possible disagreement. But I do feel that I am correct about this.

Second, I also agree with your opinion on the M2. If the low end was compromised the subjective opinion would probably not be very good. This makes total sense to me, and it's seen in a lot of research that looked at subjective sound quality ratings compared to measurements. Bass is a big part of the subjective opinion and rating people assign to a loudspeaker, so you need to get it right. But again, it's highly possible that a speaker and speaker designer could actually get the bass right, but the room messes it all up. If that is the case you can't blame the speaker. The measurements of the M2 basically prove it's crazy to not think that actually. So the moral of the story goes back to what I said from the beginning, don't trust subjective opinions, even your own, because they are not accurate. I know this rubs people the wrong way, but it's 100% true.

Third, measurements are very useful on subs too. If the sub is flat anechoic that is a great starting point. It does not mean it will be flat in room, but if it's not flat before the room then you have even bigger problems. Please remember when we say measurements we (at least I do) mean much more than a basic freq response graph that the noobs like to internet drag race with. A frequency response graph is great, but it tells an incomplete picture of sound quality. It has no time domain information, and this aspect is often what controls how accurate a subwoofer is, how fast it is, how tight or punchy it sounds, how boomy or sloppy it might be, etc... It plays a big role in the subjective opinion and non of that information is included in a freq response. Just like when I talk about speaker measurement I do not mean an on axis freq response chart. I mean polar plots, sonograms, directivity index, off axis performance, phase and time data, dispersion behavrior... etc... Those all can help tell you how a speaker will interact with a room. They tell you much more than a basic freq response chart. I believe a lot of the disconnect happens because either (A) people don't understand what comprehensive accurate speaker measurements actually are and assume they are simply a freq response chart, or (B) they don't understand the measurements and how they relate to performance and response in a room. If this understanding is missing, there will be a big disconnect on the rest of things. This is not something most people would just know, or understand either.

Imagine this for a second,

Someone buys your subwoofer and then posts on the forums their opinion, which is not very favorable. The complaint is mainly the bass response and sound quality are not great. You happen to know for a fact it's a great sub, and that perhaps the room and set up are not optimal or there is some obvious problem that is limiting the performance. What do you do? How would you feel ? What is true? Is your sub really junk ? Because the subjective opinion is saying that it is. If you adopt this as ok you'd have to just be ok with the fact that an inaccurate opinion is being given about your product, and believe that correcting it, countering it, explaining why, or educating on reason for such results is wrong and refrain from doing it. That is a tall ask for someone that is passionate on the subject, and also fully educated. If you don't think you would refrain 100% from comment, or attempt at clarification and education, and yield entirely to the idea that the subjective opinion being voiced is valid and accurate and should be representative of expected reality for others, then it's a really hard ask to think or expect the same from someone else. It's extra hard ask to think this when someone knows that the opinion is wrong. I mean this regards to the opinion not being accurate with regards to sound quality and reality for others; I don't mean to suggest opinions are not accurate or valid because I respect everyone right to have and voice an opinion, even if that opinion is flawed. But when it's flawed, I don't see a problem with pointing that out or discussing why it is what it is.



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ing-tests.html

This was a thread about the dishonesty of subjective sighted opinions with regards to sound quality^
It's an expansive topic unto itself, but I find it fascinating. I know a lot of people don't agree with it, which also makes intelligent discussion about the topic troublesome.

FYI dishonest was not a term I coined. I copied it from the author (Sean Olive). The messenger ask not to be shot.
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post #1922 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 01:38 PM
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were you guys running music with content under 25hz? if that was the case and there was no high pass filter on the speaker, the woofer could have been coming undone. i browsed through the dsp settings and didn't see a protective high pass on the woofer section, but can't say for certain that it isn't there.


with a 27hz tuning and about 4 cubic feet in the woofer chamber, the 2216nd woofer will provide a fairly clean 115db around 25hz increasing to about 125db around 80hz on up based on the t/s specs. the t/s specs, klippels, and other measurements are posted at the lansing heritage forum.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...p?33565-2216Nd


for a studio setting, that should be enough for just about anything.

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post #1923 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
@1201 what CD and horn is that?
here is what it says

Each speaker has two JBL 2035H 15" drivers and a massive JBL 2446H compression driver with upgraded German horn.

all thats greek to me
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post #1924 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 03:10 PM
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Any speaker or ported sub can make bad sounds when fed content below tuning (I know everyone posting here knows this...but I decided to post anyway). I've heard bad sounds on the song Bass I Love You on the 215's. Not the long sustained 17hz centered note, but on the quick hitting 8hz note. Turn on the HPF and no more bad sound. Even Luke's DIY Monsters (20 cu ft PER speaker tuned to 25 hz) would make bad sounds if you don't use a HPF and have heavy content below tuning.

David, I wonder if you have a similar mindset to Jonathan. He says that as soon as he hears a speaker make any kind of bad sound he loses interest in it. The last time we were at David Beck's this happened with the JTR 210's setup in his living room. They are tuned to 38hz or something like that and there was NO HPF on them. A song with lots of content below tuning got cranked up very loud and sure enough, bad sounds. Jonathan lost interest. I don't understand that.... throw a HPF on like you are supposed to and voila!! No bad sounds ever.

Also maybe the problem at Asim's was trying to test the limits of the M2 vs multiple Orbit Shifters? That's not a fair fight obviously.
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post #1925 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 03:44 PM
 
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The m2 is perfectly comfortable playing 10+Db over reference for 24 hours continuous, it's been tested.

At a certain point you gotta think enougn is enougn right ?

I mean the M2 is capable of damage your hearing, so realistically do you really need more ?

I can't listen at 115db constant for hours on end, I get fatigue quickly. A movie that loud would be offensive after two hours to me. And the m2 is probably the smoothest and least harsh top end out there. It's way smoother and less harsh than the 4722.

I'm always surprised by the need for more SPL from some.

I'm excessive and love overkill, but honesty it's used like 5 minutes at a time to impress friends. It's not at all a daily need for me.
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post #1926 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 05:56 PM
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Here are my random, completely uneducated, plug and play observations from the M2's and what I am looking to accomplish.

The M2's are by far the best sounding speaker I've ever heard. They give me chills during certain songs. Let's remember we are the outcast of the audiophile crowd with looking for insane SPL with killer bass. So, yes, I do agree that the upper limits of listening volumes the single 15 does not keep with with some other speakers. I'll guess the JTR 215's have more bass due to having more drivers. My Seaton Cat 12's with 2 18" CHT subs take the gold medal for output, especially in the bass dept. Not surprising given the number of drivers, etc.

So, in a more "realistic" setting the M2 for me is one sweet ass speaker that is hard to beat. But, here I am trying to assemble a HT system and having to figure out a budget. I have 2 M2's now and kind of thinking greeting a 3rd, then it hits me....I can buy 3 JBL 4277 with amps for less than 1 M2. OUCH!!!!

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the M2 despite it not being able to reproduce bass that I have grown used to with 8 18" subs. If I was looking at a 2 channel system the M2 would be my choice 100x over. Since I am looking for something to be used a few hours a month, mostly blasting concert DVD/BR along with 8 18" subs I am open to looking at other speakers.

Hard to deny the value of the 4722 and that is the real reason I am more than likely going to buy them. Sure an LCR of M2's would be awesome but damn, that's a lot of $$$$$$ to have just in 3 speakers. Hopefully I can sell my M2's and have enough funds to buy a pre/pro, 3 JBL 4722 w/amps and amps for the subs.

And even if I get the 4722's I would not rule out getting Cat 12 again or the JTR 215. Part of the fun in this hobby for me is changing out equipment and trying new things. Dare I say that once the M2's go I'll be trying to figure out a way to get them again. Crazy, I know...
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post #1927 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
Here are my random, completely uneducated, plug and play observations from the M2's and what I am looking to accomplish.

The M2's are by far the best sounding speaker I've ever heard. They give me chills during certain songs. Let's remember we are the outcast of the audiophile crowd with looking for insane SPL with killer bass. So, yes, I do agree that the upper limits of listening volumes the single 15 does not keep with with some other speakers. I'll guess the JTR 215's have more bass due to having more drivers. My Seaton Cat 12's with 2 18" CHT subs take the gold medal for output, especially in the bass dept. Not surprising given the number of drivers, etc.

So, in a more "realistic" setting the M2 for me is one sweet ass speaker that is hard to beat. But, here I am trying to assemble a HT system and having to figure out a budget. I have 2 M2's now and kind of thinking greeting a 3rd, then it hits me....I can buy 3 JBL 4277 with amps for less than 1 M2. OUCH!!!!

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the M2 despite it not being able to reproduce bass that I have grown used to with 8 18" subs. If I was looking at a 2 channel system the M2 would be my choice 100x over. Since I am looking for something to be used a few hours a month, mostly blasting concert DVD/BR along with 8 18" subs I am open to looking at other speakers.

Hard to deny the value of the 4722 and that is the real reason I am more than likely going to buy them. Sure an LCR of M2's would be awesome but damn, that's a lot of $$$$$$ to have just in 3 speakers. Hopefully I can sell my M2's and have enough funds to buy a pre/pro, 3 JBL 4722 w/amps and amps for the subs.

And even if I get the 4722's I would not rule out getting Cat 12 again or the JTR 215. Part of the fun in this hobby for me is changing out equipment and trying new things. Dare I say that once the M2's go I'll be trying to figure out a way to get them again. Crazy, I know...
You want to trade?
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post #1928 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
Here are my random, completely uneducated, plug and play observations from the M2's and what I am looking to accomplish.

The M2's are by far the best sounding speaker I've ever heard. They give me chills during certain songs. Let's remember we are the outcast of the audiophile crowd with looking for insane SPL with killer bass. So, yes, I do agree that the upper limits of listening volumes the single 15 does not keep with with some other speakers. I'll guess the JTR 215's have more bass due to having more drivers. My Seaton Cat 12's with 2 18" CHT subs take the gold medal for output, especially in the bass dept. Not surprising given the number of drivers, etc.

So, in a more "realistic" setting the M2 for me is one sweet ass speaker that is hard to beat. But, here I am trying to assemble a HT system and having to figure out a budget. I have 2 M2's now and kind of thinking greeting a 3rd, then it hits me....I can buy 3 JBL 4277 with amps for less than 1 M2. OUCH!!!!

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the M2 despite it not being able to reproduce bass that I have grown used to with 8 18" subs. If I was looking at a 2 channel system the M2 would be my choice 100x over. Since I am looking for something to be used a few hours a month, mostly blasting concert DVD/BR along with 8 18" subs I am open to looking at other speakers.

Hard to deny the value of the 4722 and that is the real reason I am more than likely going to buy them. Sure an LCR of M2's would be awesome but damn, that's a lot of $$$$$$ to have just in 3 speakers. Hopefully I can sell my M2's and have enough funds to buy a pre/pro, 3 JBL 4722 w/amps and amps for the subs.

And even if I get the 4722's I would not rule out getting Cat 12 again or the JTR 215. Part of the fun in this hobby for me is changing out equipment and trying new things. Dare I say that once the M2's go I'll be trying to figure out a way to get them again. Crazy, I know...
Honestly the 4722's and DSI amps can be had for not much. DSI 1000's are currently quoted at $499, DSI 2000 was $749 I believe but I will never use all of the 1000's headroom. 4722 we all know the current "deal." So you can get LCR with DSI 1000's for right at 5k. For a Preamp you want XLR to run balanced with the 4722 and if you want Atmos with XLR you will pay thousands. My advice is to keep the M2's for a 2 channel listening room where you kick back with a drink and listen to some music. Snag the LCR with amps and build from there.
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post #1929 of 7616 Old 09-06-2015, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
Here are my random, completely uneducated, plug and play observations from the M2's and what I am looking to accomplish.

The M2's are by far the best sounding speaker I've ever heard. They give me chills during certain songs. Let's remember we are the outcast of the audiophile crowd with looking for insane SPL with killer bass. So, yes, I do agree that the upper limits of listening volumes the single 15 does not keep with with some other speakers. I'll guess the JTR 215's have more bass due to having more drivers. My Seaton Cat 12's with 2 18" CHT subs take the gold medal for output, especially in the bass dept. Not surprising given the number of drivers, etc.

So, in a more "realistic" setting the M2 for me is one sweet ass speaker that is hard to beat. But, here I am trying to assemble a HT system and having to figure out a budget. I have 2 M2's now and kind of thinking greeting a 3rd, then it hits me....I can buy 3 JBL 4277 with amps for less than 1 M2. OUCH!!!!

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the M2 despite it not being able to reproduce bass that I have grown used to with 8 18" subs. If I was looking at a 2 channel system the M2 would be my choice 100x over. Since I am looking for something to be used a few hours a month, mostly blasting concert DVD/BR along with 8 18" subs I am open to looking at other speakers.

Hard to deny the value of the 4722 and that is the real reason I am more than likely going to buy them. Sure an LCR of M2's would be awesome but damn, that's a lot of $$$$$$ to have just in 3 speakers. Hopefully I can sell my M2's and have enough funds to buy a pre/pro, 3 JBL 4722 w/amps and amps for the subs.

And even if I get the 4722's I would not rule out getting Cat 12 again or the JTR 215. Part of the fun in this hobby for me is changing out equipment and trying new things. Dare I say that once the M2's go I'll be trying to figure out a way to get them again. Crazy, I know...
Totally understand why you would choose to go with the 4722's. If I were doing a dedicated theater for movies I wouldn't go with M2's either. I think I already said as much in one of my PM's to you. But if it were a dual space as my music room and HT, then I would put M2's up front.
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post #1930 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 05:29 AM
 
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I'd trade 4722 for m2 I'll throw in my DSi amps too.
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post #1931 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 06:57 AM
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To me the M2 can go very loud, just not under it's tune. Since most of us are bass crazies it would be nice to have these speakers sealed crossing over to the bass arrays, any speakers for that matter.
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Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #1932 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If the M2 isn't a wise choice for HT, does anyone want to speculate why JBL chose them for the Atmos demo at CEDIA? If it was to showcase theater, why did't they go with a Pro Cinema product? Many people did criticize the bass and mid bass of the room and it seems to line up with what everyone is saying about the single 15 of the M2. The room apparently was loud while the M2 isn't designed/intended to be played loud. Seems odd.
Everyone doesn't say they're not a wise choice for HT. Crossed over to subs they have clean output well above reference.
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post #1933 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 09:15 AM
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Everyone doesn't say they're not a wise choice for HT. Crossed over to subs they have clean output well above reference.
Are you kidding me Gooddoc? I suggest a HPF last night and you basically said I should be in the loony bin. What the heck do you think you include when integrating the subs?

I stand by the fact I heard the single 15" woofer in the M2 become uncomposed and unhappy when pushed real hard running full range. It doesn't have the output capability of the 4722...I'm sure because of different design criteria, which is perfectly understandable. But as I said, I know a set of JTR 215RTs were returned because they made noises below 20Hz when pushed hard and the owner thought they were full range and was unhappy. The JBL M2 would go plenty loud for me when playing full range but for some with some music, I'm sure the M2s wouldn't be the perfect speaker.

So full range at over reference, I don't think the M2 would be the perfect speaker for everyone with all music.

Full range at reference or below, I could see the M2 living up to its considerable reputation.

For HT with a stout sub system, I could see it being phenomenal as well.

This is spirited discussion and I would love to have it in person with the majority of people I've met on AVS including Gooddoc and mfusick. The people on AVS have been phenomenal and I'm grateful for the friends I've made here.
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post #1934 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 10:53 AM
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Here are a few pics of the beauties. Got the two I had set up in living room for demo moved out to garage and the third unpacked. Going to get them hooked up active to the DSi amps...Doing a bit of mock up actually with taping off where walls will be, then taping off the 2:35 screen size with LCR in actual places they will sit, putting some folding chairs up where I plan on seating. Will see how it goes today.

Anyway, the speaker porn...


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post #1935 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 11:16 AM
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That 3rd picture makes me want to pause, crank the volume an extra 30dB, and then hit play to see what the cat does.

Life is Lambertian
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post #1936 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 11:38 AM
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Ok well more "noobness" here

As I mentioned I am running active obviously as I bought the DSI amps. Long term will be from an Onkyo 5508 preamp as I have also mentioned. It is not here yet and I want to hook it up today to play around and see how it sounds. I have RCA to XLR monoprice cables I cut off the XLR end and put the Phoenix connectors on to insert into the Crown amp. My question here is that there is two input sections for the Phoenix connectors for channel 1 and channel 2. Obviously we are not sending two independent signals. I am sending one signal then using one channel for the HF section and one channel for the LF section. Channel 1 is for the LF section and channel 2 for the HF section as specified in the manual. But the signal I am sending from the Oppo I will use today I imagine I send to Channel 1 of the input section right? I don't imagine it would be channel 2. I'm sure once I select 4722 in the menu the amps realizes we are running active and uses the single signal. Maybe it doesn't matter what channel it goes into?
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post #1937 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 12:39 PM
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It just got real son...
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post #1938 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 01:36 PM
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Are you kidding me Gooddoc? I suggest a HPF last night and you basically said I should be in the loony bin. What the heck do you think you include when integrating the subs?

I stand by the fact I heard the single 15" woofer in the M2 become uncomposed and unhappy when pushed real hard running full range. It doesn't have the output capability of the 4722...I'm sure because of different design criteria, which is perfectly understandable. But as I said, I know a set of JTR 215RTs were returned because they made noises below 20Hz when pushed hard and the owner thought they were full range and was unhappy. The JBL M2 would go plenty loud for me when playing full range but for some with some music, I'm sure the M2s wouldn't be the perfect speaker.

So full range at over reference, I don't think the M2 would be the perfect speaker for everyone with all music.

Full range at reference or below, I could see the M2 living up to its considerable reputation.

For HT with a stout sub system, I could see it being phenomenal as well.

This is spirited discussion and I would love to have it in person with the majority of people I've met on AVS including Gooddoc and mfusick. The people on AVS have been phenomenal and I'm grateful for the friends I've made here.
Ditto. Most of us spend an unhealthy amount of time on these forums with our A/V obsession, and just like I get annoyed and argue a bit with my family at times, it's inevitable here too . But typically we all settle down and realize either we weren't exactly in the right, or even if we are you just let it go and let it be water under the bridge. No sweat man, discussions sometimes get a bit heated, but I respect most on these forums, particularly on threads like this, and sometimes we might not agree. I don't hold a personal grudge over things like that.

Having said that , I was simply pointing out that the presence or absence of an HPF does not define whether a speaker is full range, the port tune does that. And I consider any speaker that can do 20Hz-20kHz in room to be full range. It's a simple matter of 30 sec. to place an HPF if content dictates it. I've never needed it in my room, so I haven't bothered. And yes, there is an HPF when using subs, but that is typically referred to as a crossover when it's combined with an LPF .

And yes, like all speakers, the M2 has an SPL limit and a port tune that has to be contended with because it's a ported design, so you're right, it's not the perfect speaker for everyone. But I think you're the only one that has referred to it as a "perfect" speaker unless I missed a post somewhere. It has received outstanding accolades and has some of the best engineering ever applied to a speaker design for its application IMO, but don't confuse that with it being "perfect" or that the design is suitable for any audio application.

It's just a very well designed speaker with oustanding measurements. It won't be everyone's preference or right for any application outside the studio market, where it was designed to be. I want a speaker that plays cleanly louder than I can handle with outstanding dynamics, is objectively accurate, and that I subjectively like the sound. The M2 does all those things for me, so from a personal perspective it is perfect for me, but it is not a "perfect" speaker(whatever that means) for everyone or every application.

But the only reason I dove into the conversation was that I thought you were attributing the issues you heard to some design flaw of the M2 when the measurements don't support it. The ported nature of the design, and it's inherent issues below tune, are not a flaw. When there is an issue, one needs to turn to measurements to figure out whats going on and then conclusions can be drawn. You know this since it's what you did to confirm your JTR issues. When you're talking bass issues, where it's a fact that the room has a massive influence, and the measurements of the speaker or sub don't explain the issue, then the room needs to be looked at. This really has nothing to do specifically with the M2. I would say that for any speaker if the measurements simply didn't correlate and an overwhelming number of respected industry professionals and users haven't heard the issue.

The thing is with the GTG is that 95% of the listening was done well within the clean performance envelope of the M2, regardless of whether an HPF was in place. So I'll be honest and say I'm not sure what you were hearing as "bad noises" throughout all of that, but I didn't hear it. I heard massive amounts of ringing and a pretty clear room mode or two down low that was all really impacting the SQ, but no bad noises. There were a couple songs with very deep bass that were cranked that definitely could have used an HPF in place, but that was the only time I could understand you hearing an issue below port tune. And I don't doubt you did, it just doesn't explain the rest of the time.

But it doesn't really matter and I don't think you're a liar or making it all up, I'm only discussing this from the "why" part of it as mfusick likes to say . You don't have to like the M2 at all, or anyone else, and that's ok. I have some speaker pride like many here do, but it's just a speaker and I respect personal preference. But it can sometimes come across as fanboyism when it really isn't ALL fanboyism , but some science too.
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post #1939 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 07:01 PM
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Well The trio has been out in the garage/soon to be theater have been cycling pink noise between them for hours. Getting some break in

I did do a little listening and plan to do more tonight. First off I claim same as @carp , I am terrible at descriptive adjectives when trying to describe sound. I can surely tell the upper end is a bit more pronounced. As in when a singer uses the letter "S" or other similar frequencies occur it just has more presence. I know thats terrible description. It is nice for sure and gives a nicer top end for sure. I asked my wife if she noticed anything without suggesting anything and I quote her, "It sounds crisper." After a few questions she was describing the same thing to me as the shimmery, airy, upper end. But it wasn't a huge difference, minor but surely noticeable.

A couple other observations. I thought the crossover running active was 630hz. I can confirm this is not the case. In fact it was around 850hz I am pretty sure. Once I get windows running and get the software downloaded it will be simple enough to mange. But I have a "audio tool kit" dvd from a friend that has a lot of sine waves and pink noises on it at many different frequencies. It happened to have a 630hz pink noise and I can say 100% the CD had zero sound coming out, it was all woofers. The next up was 800hz and it was about half and half I would say between woofer and CD. At 900hz it was all CD. Anyway...

Can anyone confirm the passive crossover frequency? Is active simply a matter of setting it with the Harmon software? @Mfusick
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post #1940 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 07:11 PM
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jpowell84:

Not that I am completely familiar with this model JBL Pro speaker, but the on the page below it list that the crossover for the 4722 is 630Hz and the 4722N is 800Hz.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...n#.Ve5Ccp1Viko

Can you post a picture showing how they are connected with the speaker wire?

On a side note would you mind PM'ing me information about where you got your speakers, amps and who you worked with. I am getting ready to upgrade my home theater and these are at the top of my list. I am also very interested in what you learned about the different models of JBL Pro speakers for surrounds along with any pricing that you could share with me.

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post #1941 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rkeeney View Post
jpowell84:

Not that I am completely familiar with this model JBL Pro speaker, but the on the page below it list that the crossover for the 4722 is 630Hz and the 4722N is 800Hz.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...n#.Ve5Ccp1Viko

Can you post a picture showing how they are connected with the speaker wire?

On a side note would you mind PM'ing me information about where you got your speakers, amps and who you worked with. I am getting ready to upgrade my home theater and these are at the top of my list. I am also very interested in what you learned about the different models of JBL Pro speakers for surrounds along with any pricing that you could share with me.

Thanks,
RKeeney
Yeah I will pass that info along via PM. I totally forgot that was listed which is funny considering I went to that page like 50 times the las few months! As far as pics it would be several. I can assure you that + & - on channel 2 of all three amps are connected to + & - of each CD. And all channel 1's are connected to all three LF sections. I triple checked wiring as I was doing it. I thought I was right about it should be 630hz running active. All the passive wires are unused. So there is no confusion on anything connected wrong, I will even quadruple check real quick.

I wonder if I am supposed to select another setting? Again I don't have the Harman software up and running yet, just using the little screen on the amps. but as my pic showed 4722 is selected.

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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Well The trio has been out in the garage/soon to be theater have been cycling pink noise between them for hours. Getting some break in

I did do a little listening and plan to do more tonight. First off I claim same as @carp , I am terrible at descriptive adjectives when trying to describe sound. I can surely tell the upper end is a bit more pronounced. As in when a singer uses the letter "S" or other similar frequencies occur it just has more presence. I know thats terrible description. It is nice for sure and gives a nicer top end for sure. I asked my wife if she noticed anything without suggesting anything and I quote her, "It sounds crisper." After a few questions she was describing the same thing to me as the shimmery, airy, upper end. But it wasn't a huge difference, minor but surely noticeable.

A couple other observations. I thought the crossover running active was 630hz. I can confirm this is not the case. In fact it was around 850hz I am pretty sure. Once I get windows running and get the software downloaded it will be simple enough to mange. But I have a "audio tool kit" dvd from a friend that has a lot of sine waves and pink noises on it at many different frequencies. It happened to have a 630hz pink noise and I can say 100% the CD had zero sound coming out, it was all woofers. The next up was 800hz and it was about half and half I would say between woofer and CD. At 900hz it was all CD. Anyway...

Can anyone confirm the passive crossover frequency? Is active simply a matter of setting it with the Harmon software? @Mfusick
AFAIK if you xover any lower than approx 780hz the CD ain't gonna be very happy about it at higher volume, as in higher distortion around xo freq. I think the 630hz active xo spec is just a number they pulled out of nowhere.
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post #1943 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 08:50 PM
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@Gooddoc - I was responding to a post where mfusick basically said the M2 was a perfect speaker. Knowing I heard the 15" on the M2 unhappy with a loss of composure when at spirited volumes, I jumped in and said it wasn't a perfect speaker. And I was tired and communicated poorly. We both know JBL has many models with dual 15" drivers that would handle the spirited listening but a design decision was likely made to go with a single 15" to focus on a more accurate speaker. That makes complete sense but as there is no perfect speaker, I was just pointing out to people that it probably isn't the perfect speaker for full-range spirited listening with all music. Again, I should have communicated that better initially. And part of my thinking on that was knowing that someone returned a pair of JTR 215RTs because they made noises when pushed REALLY HARD when run full range. For me, I think the JBL M2 with a solid sub system would be more than enough speaker for me...but I doubt I'd ever buy them, even if I could afford them.


I wish we had heard the JBL M2 in its full glory at more reasonable volume levels because I agree that I really haven't heard the JBL M2.
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post #1944 of 7616 Old 09-07-2015, 09:51 PM
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That 3rd picture makes me want to pause, crank the volume an extra 30dB, and then hit play to see what the cat does.
I have tried with him but he seems oblivious to loud speakers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypez604 View Post
AFAIK if you xover any lower than approx 780hz the CD ain't gonna be very happy about it at higher volume, as in higher distortion around xo freq. I think the 630hz active xo spec is just a number they pulled out of nowhere.
Huh, first I heard of that. As long as it's happy I guess it's good to go! I just thought it was 630.
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post #1945 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 05:11 AM
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With the 2432, does positive go to red or black from amp to CD. I know with my 2450-SLs, it is positive to black.

You should call Harmon (JBL Pro) to clarify the xover question. I'd like to know too. I have never adjusted mine in the DSis.

Here's my new configuration with the baffle wall being constructed. I hope I won't miss the DTS-10 too much.
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post #1946 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Well The trio has been out in the garage/soon to be theater have been cycling pink noise between them for hours. Getting some break in

I did do a little listening and plan to do more tonight. First off I claim same as @carp , I am terrible at descriptive adjectives when trying to describe sound. I can surely tell the upper end is a bit more pronounced. As in when a singer uses the letter "S" or other similar frequencies occur it just has more presence. I know thats terrible description. It is nice for sure and gives a nicer top end for sure. I asked my wife if she noticed anything without suggesting anything and I quote her, "It sounds crisper." After a few questions she was describing the same thing to me as the shimmery, airy, upper end. But it wasn't a huge difference, minor but surely noticeable.

A couple other observations. I thought the crossover running active was 630hz. I can confirm this is not the case. In fact it was around 850hz I am pretty sure. Once I get windows running and get the software downloaded it will be simple enough to mange. But I have a "audio tool kit" dvd from a friend that has a lot of sine waves and pink noises on it at many different frequencies. It happened to have a 630hz pink noise and I can say 100% the CD had zero sound coming out, it was all woofers. The next up was 800hz and it was about half and half I would say between woofer and

Can anyone confirm the passive crossover frequency? Is active simply a matter of setting it with the Harmon software? @Mfusick
I think the crossover is at around 800hz. I always thought that it was lower until I looked into the preset saw that it is set at 800hz+. I asked around on the forum but was told that JBL does some complicated stuff to their settings and I should trust the specs.
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post #1947 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
If the M2 isn't a wise choice for HT, does anyone want to speculate why JBL chose them for the Atmos demo at CEDIA? If it was to showcase theater, why did't they go with a Pro Cinema product? Many people did criticize the bass and mid bass of the room and it seems to line up with what everyone is saying about the single 15 of the M2. The room apparently was loud while the M2 isn't designed/intended to be played loud. Seems odd.
I'm not sure if you were there?

I was twice.

The bass was the best at CEDIA IMO.

They used (8) 18" subs, and it was not for output. It was for seat to seat variation management, and using their system the variation seat to seat (a lot of seats too) was +/-1db.

Not sure where you got that info, but that is one of the problems with second hand and subjective opinion. I know this for a fact because I talked to the guys there who measured it and set it up. He even explained why in the demo.

They also used a lot more overheads. A LOT MORE. because that is one of the tricks you can use to avoid the localization problems and minimize SPL variation seat to seat for surrounds and overheads.

I thought that the demo was oustanding. M2 included.

And they choose the M2 because they play plenty loud, but work better (more favorably with room interaction) in that set up (at least they felt that way). I suspect they also wanted to showcase their product they were most proud about, and since M2 was much new than something like a 4722 that was designed back in 1996.

Why would the M2 not be a good choice for theater? It's used in professional mixing FYI. It's top SPL is comfortable well above reference too. One of the advantages of a great speaker like M2 that has a nice wide pattern and excellent directivity is that you are opened up and free to use a variety of different room treatments, which can provide superior sound and add in that illusive "sparkle" in the room. You can't get that with a narrow pattern speaker, and absorb panels. You can of coarse use the same treatment approach with something like an M2, but personally I would not. The main advantage of that speaker is you can bring in and use all that great energy and use alternative room treatments.

At one of the last GTG we did we compared a variety of speaker types (all good stuff) and used some of the HAA tracks that test for envelopment and I think a lot of the attendees were shocked at the results. The test was informal, but it was enlightening. We used a ribbon based tower speaker, a JTR (horn) , a MTM soft dome based DIY I made, some FUSION 8 (horn). I think a lot of people thought the bigger speaker would sound "bigger" but actually it was the opposite. The JTR was the smallest sounding, with the sound clearly focused in front of you, shrunken almost into a smaller oval of origination. It has decent focus, but poor envelopment. It was clearly great sounding, loudest, most dynamic etc... everyone agreed on that part. We had to pad it down quite a bit to even try to level match it to the ribbon or MTM bookshelf. Obviously the higher efficiency was clear. But the ribbon sounded bigger than the FUSION 8 and the JTR, because it had a wider axis horizontal. But it was limited very much in the vertical, and this was obvious to everyone when we stood up and sat back down, you could literally take yourself out of the direct sound. I don't remember the specifics of that ribbon- but I know the technology is generally really limited in the vertical- sometimes only 20 degrees or so. 120x20 would be really wide, but make sure you stay seated! You won't get as much from the floor and ceiling reflections on the top end, and that was also noticable. The soft dome sounded the best. It was also the most enveloping. The speaker would not be well suited to HT because of bass response and output, it was not very efficient. The parts were modest- A $20 dayton soft dome and two 4" woofers. It was sealed. All speakers ran with (3) Seaton subs so bass response was mostly the same, with all speakers XO as well at 80hz. In this set up the small speaker was not particularly disadvantaged like it might be in a 2.0 set up- but the point was to judge the full sound and judge envelopment and sound stage. The soft dome had the biggest sound- you could clearly hear the sound coming from the side, above, even behind you.

The best track we used for this test was Pink Floyd song "TIME" where the clocks all ring like crazy in the begin of the song. With a system with great envelopment you'll get a sense of reflections and sound all around you- with some clocks clearly farther away, closer, to the side, etc... and you'll hear room clues from the recording and your own room that kind of puts you in the middle of the sound. The soft dome with the small woofers had a great off axis, as do most small speaker designs with dome tweets, so it was a pretty obvious difference between the JTR horn (which is much more narrow and pattern controlled) and the soft dome. If you followed the logic of most AVS people you would have thought the opposite- but again this is an area where a lot of people don't know or don't actually have training.

Our friend Bob who attends often actually supplied the test disc and suggested the test (he had taken the HAA audio calibration class, as well as many more similar classes) HAA link #1 info HAA SECOND LINK FOR INFO.


Here is a picture I had on my phone from the event (sorry I did not really take many)



Room was untreated basically. A normal room, with a area rug and hard wood floors, standard construction painted sheet rock, ceiling (with skylights) and some windows with light curtains on one wall. This was not some special room. The host has been working on treating the room to further improve the sound quality, but I point this out because I don't want some people to think it was a special circumstance that would not play out in ordinary rooms.

So,

Circle back to the topic at hand- the M2 really has a lot of the advantages of smaller speaker, or wider speakers, but in a bigger package able to deliver better dynamics. They have something like 10,000 watts powering them too so dynamic ability certainly isn't a problem- each woofer and each tweeter get's it's own channel of power dedicated from a Crown Itech amp. You are able to do more things in your room design or room treatments with a speaker as excellent as the M2 because of how excellent it performs. The sweet spot is wider thanks to that waveguide, which is also something I assume JBL pro considered in their multi seat multi row room. You get a different first reflection point, and you get a favorable room interaction thanks to great off axis performance.

That said, the 4722 is an excellent speaker, and it's 90 wide (pretty good IMO), very dynamic, and the directivity index looks pretty good for it. It's better than most I have seen in this class. It's not the final word in refinement, which is something the M2 would hold a serious advantage about, but it does sound good. It can work in a lot of designs and rooms, (assuming you can fit these beasts !). But it's not an M2. There is a lot more reasons why the M2 is almost 10x the price, but this conversation needs to end some place, might as well stop here.
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post #1948 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:44 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrager View Post
With the 2432, does positive go to red or black from amp to CD. I know with my 2450-SLs, it is positive to black.

You should call Harmon (JBL Pro) to clarify the xover question. I'd like to know too. I have never adjusted mine in the DSis.

Here's my new configuration with the baffle wall being constructed. I hope I won't miss the DTS-10 too much.
This!

JBL is different than many. It was backwards on my 2226- so thankfully I just hook up the wires backwards to fix it.
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post #1949 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:57 AM
 
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This is spirited discussion and I would love to have it in person with the majority of people I've met on AVS including Gooddoc and mfusick. The people on AVS have been phenomenal and I'm grateful for the friends I've made here.
Nice comment!

I am also grateful for the friendships I have made here. I have met some genuinely excellent people, and developed some genuinely amazing friendships. It's very fun to talk about things you are passionate about with others that share the same interests. I can't do that with my normal friends and family, they just play at a level where we don't match up.

I'd actually contribute a lot of my knowledge and experiences to these friendships, you can learn a lot from other's just talking about stuff. I almost never use the telephone. I hate it. But I do talk about theaters and audio and things with a variety of people, including many AVS friends often. It's the only time I actually like to use the phone.

One last comment, "spirited discussion" is something that is only on the forum. It's not like that in real life. It's much more respectful, fun, valuable, and enlightening in real life. Gone is the concept of argument, and newly presented is the ability to understand each other better with face to face interaction. I don't think a discussion is ever spirited in real life, I think perhaps people can be passionate or get excited but I find it's just generally easier to convey true meaning in real life or conversation. Humans are very sensitive to facial expressions, tone of voice, the way things are said- that convey additional meaning.

You can say the same sentence in two ways, one way making someone laugh, the other pissing them off. You can't tell which is which with text only communication online, emails and text messages. So the person communicating has limited ability to control how it's going to be received. The reason for "spirited discussion" is because many people (like me!) are not very sensitive or empathetic and are not great communicators. [at least this is what my wife tells me constantly]. But they are passionate about the subject, so almost all of the thought process is about the topic at hand, not necessarily about human beings or feelings. This can cause trouble in places that only use text, especially for people that are perhaps more sensitive. I can honestly say in tens of thousands of posts over more than decade I'm rarely if ever offended by others; I think I am just not sensitive and have a thick skin. Half the time I laugh how crazy things can get. The same can't be said in reverse, my communication style seems to only work for others like me and it's a personal flaw of mine that I fail to consider people that are not so alike me. I think these kind of things lead to "spirited discussion" on a place like a forum, but they are totally absent in real life or a GTG event. I know I've never so much as even got close to an argument or disagreement at such an event. Oddly, half the time I bit my tongue or walk away. I should probably do that more around here. Real life is more fun- and it should be.
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post #1950 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

A couple other observations. I thought the crossover running active was 630hz. I can confirm this is not the case. In fact it was around 850hz I am pretty sure. Once I get windows running and get the software downloaded it will be simple enough to mange. But I have a "audio tool kit" dvd from a friend that has a lot of sine waves and pink noises on it at many different frequencies. It happened to have a 630hz pink noise and I can say 100% the CD had zero sound coming out, it was all woofers. The next up was 800hz and it was about half and half I would say between woofer and CD. At 900hz it was all CD. Anyway...

Can anyone confirm the passive crossover frequency? Is active simply a matter of setting it with the Harmon software? @Mfusick
There is a difference between the XO setting and the effective XO.

I posted about this much earlier in this thread, even included screen shots of the exact XO settings.

Keep in mind the active setting uses shelf filters, reverse shelf filters, and EQ (including EQ on the back side of the XO) so it's not like you can just look at the setting slope and say what it is.

You can do a lot of stuff with active - and JBL does it all.

If you want me to repost the stuff I did before with the settings I could try, but my DSi amps are in storage for my remodel. I think if you went back far enough you'd find the screen shots in this thread.
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