Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 66 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 3273Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1951 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:07 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Ok well more "noobness" here

As I mentioned I am running active obviously as I bought the DSI amps. Long term will be from an Onkyo 5508 preamp as I have also mentioned. It is not here yet and I want to hook it up today to play around and see how it sounds. I have RCA to XLR monoprice cables I cut off the XLR end and put the Phoenix connectors on to insert into the Crown amp. My question here is that there is two input sections for the Phoenix connectors for channel 1 and channel 2. Obviously we are not sending two independent signals. I am sending one signal then using one channel for the HF section and one channel for the LF section. Channel 1 is for the LF section and channel 2 for the HF section as specified in the manual. But the signal I am sending from the Oppo I will use today I imagine I send to Channel 1 of the input section right? I don't imagine it would be channel 2. I'm sure once I select 4722 in the menu the amps realizes we are running active and uses the single signal. Maybe it doesn't matter what channel it goes into?
Balanced should make a huge difference. I have the same Pre/Pro and amps, it was much better when I got over to the balanced interconnection.

Monoprice XLR cables really only belong in the garbage. As soon as I moved away from them and started making my own all my hum and issues went away. If you are cutting the tips off and solder down or crimp down onto some phoenix you should be fine, you can always easily swap or float if needed- but again balanced is so much better.

RCA to XLR bullchit sucks. I run fast from that nonsense. I'll almost literally burn the whole house down and start over rather than deal with that.
Mfusick is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1952 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:09 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Here are a few pics of the beauties. Got the two I had set up in living room for demo moved out to garage and the third unpacked. Going to get them hooked up active to the DSi amps...Doing a bit of mock up actually with taping off where walls will be, then taping off the 2:35 screen size with LCR in actual places they will sit, putting some folding chairs up where I plan on seating. Will see how it goes today.

Anyway, the speaker porn...



BTW ^^^ Very nice.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1953 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,386
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3582 Post(s)
Liked: 4382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm not sure if you were there?

I was twice.

The bass was the best at CEDIA IMO.

Not sure where you got that info, but that is one of the problems with second hand and subjective opinion.
You are using circular logic. You say I can't trust second hand information, yet your defense is also second hand information. The CEDIA thread showed that most thought the JBL demo was poor. I have also read audiophile threads that don't like the M2 either. I haven't heard them but there is a number of negative press threads on the M2. I would love to hear them, but unless I am somewhere where there happens to be a pair on demo, I doubt I will ever get to hear too. However, I honestly think that if I did listen to them and didn't like them you would offer a rebuttal that either I am not a trained listener and appreciate proper audio or the room was bad.

I bought the 4722 on second hand info. The second hand info was heavily slanted toward more that liked them than those that didn't, so I took the gamble. I am glad I did. I also bought David's subs on second hand info. Most of my purchases are on second hand info. Consumer reports, Amazon rankings, etc. Movie reviews, restaurants, and myriads of other items are purchased based on second hand reviews. All that is applicable except when it comes to the M2?

I have never stated that I thought the 4722 was on par with the M2. I have no doubt there are speakers that trounce the 4722. I don't have the disillusion that because I own them they are all that and a bag of chips. I also didn't state I would have expected JBL to choose the 4722 for the demo. The 4722 is at the bottom of the food chain within the JBL Pro Cinema offerings, so I would never expect them to be selected. That would be like sending your ugliest daughter to a modeling/talent search when you have other daughters that are much more attractive.

I like them for what they are. They sound great to my ears and nothing else in the market costing $1150 delivered can come close to equaling them. I would go so far to say that in the $1150 price range, it isn't even a fair fight with the 4722. It would be like putting Barbie in the octagon with Ronda Rousey. However, the M2 is in the $18-$20k where there are very formidable competitors. It doesn't seem to be the speaker of choice in that range. It is what it is.

I am a JBL fan. I owned a set of XPL200 back in the early 90s that were incredible at the time. I just don't subscribe to if it is JBL and it costs a lot then it has to be good. I also understand that I have sound biases. I like a certain sound and maybe that is my problem. Maybe that is the issue with those that have heard the M2 and weren't enamored. Maybe the M2 is a fine dry wine that has to be understood to appreciated. I fully admit I prefer the sweet red that is $8 a bottle while the $1000 bottle of dry makes me make funny faces when I drink it
countryWV likes this.

Last edited by Molon_Labe; 09-08-2015 at 12:46 PM.
Molon_Labe is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1954 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:13 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypez604 View Post
AFAIK if you xover any lower than approx 780hz the CD ain't gonna be very happy about it at higher volume, as in higher distortion around xo freq. I think the 630hz active xo spec is just a number they pulled out of nowhere.
They control the over extension and distortion of the CD with reverse shelf filters and EQ. I can assure you JBL PRO doesn't just pull stuff out of no where. None of the settings in those active presets are by random chance or some arbitrary choice. It's tested. Go look at those testing process videos of how they do stuff, it explains how they do it and why. You can have an 800hz LR4 XO, and then change the effective area of it by boosting EQ above and below, or adding in shelf filters and other DSP. These are hidden in different screens in the software so you'd really have to install the audio architect program to see them clearly on your PC.

Also- even in that they are different screens, so you'd have to pay attention when you see EQ, and where, or when there is a reverse shelf filter that overlaps the XO.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1955 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:21 AM
Senior Member
 
hypez604's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
They control the over extension and distortion of the CD with reverse shelf filters and EQ. I can assure you JBL PRO doesn't just pull stuff out of no where. None of the settings in those active presets are by random chance or some arbitrary choice. It's tested. Go look at those testing process videos of how they do stuff, it explains how they do it and why. You can have an 800hz LR4 XO, and then change the effective area of it by boosting EQ above and below, or adding in shelf filters and other DSP. These are hidden in different screens in the software so you'd really have to install the audio architect program to see them clearly on your PC.

Also- even in that they are different screens, so you'd have to pay attention when you see EQ, and where, or when there is a reverse shelf filter that overlaps the XO.
Did you ever play with a 4722n active XO? What I posted was based on a friend's personal experience with his 4722n's and active XO. He said that running any lower than like 780 or 760 begins to push the CD's too hard around XO point. If you can demonstrate otherwise please do, but saying that there's secret settings to compensate for lower XO doesn't really tell me much. I know that JBL's active xo settings for 4722 are quite complex (relatively speaking) and I did see all of the settings JBL use in all the screens of Architect, those settings were also posted earlier in this thread. Eventually the XO comes out around 800hz to the best of my knowledge when running active using JBL's stock settings.
hypez604 is offline  
post #1956 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:30 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
You are using circular logic. You say I can't trust second hand information, yet your defense is also second hand information. However, I have read the CEDIA thread where except for you and couple others thought the JBL demo was poor. I have also read audiophile threads that don't like the M2 either. Unless I am somewhere where there happens to be a pair on demo, I doubt I will ever get to hear them. However, I honestly think that if I did listen to them and didn't like them you would offer a rebuttal that either I am not a trained listener and appreciate proper audio or the room was bad.

I bought the 4722 on second hand info. The second hand info was heavily slanted toward more liked them than didn't like them, so I took the gamble. I am glad I did. I also bought David's subs on second hand info. Most of my purchases are on second hand info. Consumer reports, Amazon rankings, etc. With that said, I have read more threads/articles that weren't kind/favorable to the M2 vs those that are favorable. This is hard to overlook.
I'm not just saying I thought it was the best subjective, I am telling you the JBL PRO guys told me they measured it across 16 different seats with very minimal variation. I forget the exact details but trust me, it did not suck. And this was even a point of the demo. Those guys have white papers on the subject and a specific way they do it, and while there is perhaps more than one way to skin a cat the bass in that demo by no means was inconsistent or poor.

Anything you heard or read otherwise was just interweb nonsense from someone that doesn't understand. I would question that.

I'm telling you that they specifically told me they choose to use (8) 18" subs and place them like they did to maximize performance exactly opposite of what you are saying. They explained the measurements, and how they did it in the demo a bit- but really just in marketing manner as part of the demo. I later talked with them after the demo on the show floor and they confirmed that for most of the seats the variations was extremely minimal, I think he told me the one bad seat was far left back, or something like that. My subjective opinion was formed before I learned any of that too. It was good, and better than many others I had heard that day. I think it was actually the best I heard of the entire show, exception being Gerry's private listening room at the other hotel. It's hard to compare stuff you heard one day, to the next, etc... but clearly the JBL PRO demo was really good. I also could not locate the surrounds or overheads like I could in many of the other demos. In the Golden Ear demo I could have closed my eyes and pointed to them all. The same for the manufacturers like Pioneer, Onkyo and Denon.

The challenge with ATMOS that is new is how do you minimize seat to seat SPL variation and prevent localization with such low ceilings as you see in many basement or consumer theaters ? It's hard to do! If you do not do it right it totally ruins the effect because the point of 3D sound technology is that they place a 3D sound object into 3D space- so they basically can place a sound somewhere in the room, it doesn't have to be coming from a "channel" anymore. Gone is the concept of channels. Now you only have speakers. But the sounds can appear to come from an area between many speakers, and they technology requires a proper set up to achieve that. If you have one speaker much louder and able to be localized then that intended effect is ruined, or greatly minimized. But again- this is a new area where a lot of normal people probably have not heard a lot of ATMOS demos or understand it well or how it should work- so that is why you see so many people that just spent thousands exclaim how awesome the upgrade is. I'm stoked they are happy, but in a lot of cases I know from the pictures and how they set it up it's not working optimally too. Ignorance is bliss! They don't know, so best not to tell them

One of the most exclamatory endorsements I saw on this forum was from a guy who had a THX Klipsch set up that had dipole speakers for surrounds. Simply put they won't work, you can't run ATMOS effectively with tweeters out of phase on some speakers. So seriously, take what you read with a grain of salt. Amazon reviews and subjective opinions are not always accurate. You should not even take mine too seriously.
Molon_Labe likes this.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1957 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:46 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypez604 View Post
Did you ever play with a 4722n active XO? What I posted was based on a friend's personal experience with his 4722n's and active XO. He said that running any lower than like 780 or 760 begins to push the CD's too hard around XO point. If you can demonstrate otherwise please do, but saying that there's secret settings to compensate for lower XO doesn't really tell me much. I know that JBL's active xo settings for 4722 are quite complex (relatively speaking) and I did see all of the settings JBL use in all the screens of Architect, those settings were also posted earlier in this thread. Eventually the XO comes out around 800hz to the best of my knowledge when running active using JBL's stock settings.
The only thing I did was overwrite the preset with my own custom preset, but I don't have 4722 speakers.

I use the amps for my poor boy edition M2 DIY clones.

I'm just telling you that the preset is specific to work well- it's designed to be flat anechoic and they actually have a 2pi and 4pi measurement and setting available depending on your set up. Sure you could play around with it, or change it- but why ? You can't measure or design as well as JBL PRO and you don't have an air port hanger sized anechoic chamber to measure them in, or a 25 foot crane that spins around the room to measure them off axis on 72 points, so I really disagree with the idea you could make it "better"

Once the design is good- you leave it alone. You can't control room issues by changing DSP. Nor can room correction fix problems like directivity of a speaker, or poor off axis behavior, or seat to seat variation problems. No good can come from it. Leave it be. You will make the directivity worse, or the generaly speaker performance worse if you change things.

That's why DIRAC is kind of false bill of goods. Same for other brands of "room correction". None of them can fix the really important things. If yoru speaker sucks off axis the only solution is a better speaker, or absorb that "bad" sound (which can make the sound small and lack envelopment, or make it seem too dead and too boomy at the same time.) If you want to make it flat for you seat, great- but what about the person sitting next to you? or behind you ? You will always be compromising- in fact DIRAC basically makes that process for compromise easier for you- that's really what it does.

If you treat the problem by using the appropriate speaker or fixing the room/issue with physics then you get better results and less compromises. Those amps have all the ability to tweak forever- the DSP is very powerful. No secondary room correction system is needed IMO, at least on those channels. All you need is a mic and measurement system. But again, if the setting is good and the speaker is good you won't need much. The double 15" woofers already control floor and ceiling bounce more than a single 15" like in the M2- so that is good. And the ceiling height is generally the smallest dimension of a room (it's shorter than length or width) so that will help with things too. Now you just need to treat the room, and place the speaker and the LP's in the right places. Should work well, but is also easier said than done. A perfect speaker in a perfect room theoretically needs ZERO room correction or EQ. A really good speaker, in a really good room probably needs very little to none. A good speaker in a decent room would not need much above the schroeder frequency. As you step down in the level of room design/treatment and speaker quality you need more and more to "fix" things but I think the money is better spent by fixing the speaker or the room in the first place. A system like a DIRAC is excellent- but it's a tool to help you, it's not a solution. It makes it easier to calibrate, take measurements, get a certain sound... etc.. but it's not only solution to get it. That is where a lot of people lack understanding. You can do the same things manually without it, it just takes a little more time and understanding.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1958 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:47 AM
Member
 
sladi75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 17
My five cents to M2 vs. 4722 conversation.

On home theatrical listening distances 4722 has more advantageous dual-woofers basic concept than M2. Takes less damage from always difficult-to-handle floor reflection, that is.
Despite being insanely more expensive, M2 is on underdogs position against its "cheapo" dual woofered brother immediately when exiting from near field: 4722 gets to utilize its better radiation pattern control to minimize that floor bounce. As a result, its takes a lot less floor damage than M2. Compared to this fundamental core-advantage, more expensive drivers etc M2´s $$$ -virtues are literally nothing. M2 is primarily intended for shortish listening distance -environment in control room.
sladi75 is offline  
post #1959 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:03 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspen0220 View Post
I think the crossover is at around 800hz. I always thought that it was lower until I looked into the preset saw that it is set at 800hz+. I asked around on the forum but was told that JBL does some complicated stuff to their settings and I should trust the specs.
That makes sense as the 800hz pink noise I played seemed half CD and half woofer.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1960 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
This!

JBL is different than many. It was backwards on my 2226- so thankfully I just hook up the wires backwards to fix it.
Wait, so was I supposed to hook up things differently on the 4722 CD when connecting active wires to DSi amps? I looked inside the passive crossover and seen they had the striped wire (had a + next to it's connection on the crossover board) running to the right side and plain to left side. I connected + on channel two of DSi amp to the right side that had + from the passive crossover and other left side as negative which also had a symbol next to it inside the passive crossover. The CD sounded fine.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1961 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:09 AM
Deep Sea Sound
 
dgage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 3,615
Mentioned: 225 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1802 Post(s)
Liked: 1729
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Wait, so was I supposed to hook up things differently on the 4722 CD when connecting active wires to DSi amps? I looked inside the passive crossover and seen they had the striped wire (had a + next to it's connection on the crossover board) running to the right side and plain to left side. I connected + on channel two of DSi amp to the right side that had + from the passive crossover and other left side as negative which also had a symbol next to it inside the passive crossover. The CD sounded fine.
Try all of the permutations and take measurements...you'll quickly figure out which way is correct.

CD Woofer
+/- +/-
+/- -/+
-/+ +/-
-/+ -/+

David Gage
Deep Sea Sound
"You don't listen to our subs, you EXPERIENCE them!"
dgage is offline  
post #1962 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:09 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Balanced should make a huge difference. I have the same Pre/Pro and amps, it was much better when I got over to the balanced interconnection.

Monoprice XLR cables really only belong in the garbage. As soon as I moved away from them and started making my own all my hum and issues went away. If you are cutting the tips off and solder down or crimp down onto some phoenix you should be fine, you can always easily swap or float if needed- but again balanced is so much better.

RCA to XLR bullchit sucks. I run fast from that nonsense. I'll almost literally burn the whole house down and start over rather than deal with that.
I am not sure when Mark sent out my 5508. But I hooked up to Oppo player yesterday and it only had minimal amount of noise. It was not a hiss or umm or buzz. Like a faint ocean sound, higher with higher gain on the DSi amp. But like I have said it's all temporary until the 5508 comes.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1963 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:12 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
There is a difference between the XO setting and the effective XO.

I posted about this much earlier in this thread, even included screen shots of the exact XO settings.

Keep in mind the active setting uses shelf filters, reverse shelf filters, and EQ (including EQ on the back side of the XO) so it's not like you can just look at the setting slope and say what it is.

You can do a lot of stuff with active - and JBL does it all.

If you want me to repost the stuff I did before with the settings I could try, but my DSi amps are in storage for my remodel. I think if you went back far enough you'd find the screen shots in this thread.
I remember and can look back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
They control the over extension and distortion of the CD with reverse shelf filters and EQ. I can assure you JBL PRO doesn't just pull stuff out of no where. None of the settings in those active presets are by random chance or some arbitrary choice. It's tested. Go look at those testing process videos of how they do stuff, it explains how they do it and why. You can have an 800hz LR4 XO, and then change the effective area of it by boosting EQ above and below, or adding in shelf filters and other DSP. These are hidden in different screens in the software so you'd really have to install the audio architect program to see them clearly on your PC.

Also- even in that they are different screens, so you'd have to pay attention when you see EQ, and where, or when there is a reverse shelf filter that overlaps the XO.
So then with the info I will look back for does it explain, or does JBL explain how to set up properly for a 630hz crossover? Is it desirable to make the efforts to get that? I assume if they advertise 630 as active they have instructions somewhere how to set that up for optimization right? Call JBL?
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1964 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:14 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
My five cents to M2 vs. 4722 conversation.

On home theatrical listening distances 4722 has more advantageous dual-woofers basic concept than M2. Takes less damage from always difficult-to-handle floor reflection, that is.
Despite being insanely more expensive, M2 is on underdogs position against its "cheapo" dual woofered brother immediately when exiting from near field: 4722 gets to utilize its better radiation pattern control to minimize that floor bounce. As a result, its takes a lot less floor damage than M2. Compared to this fundamental core-advantage, more expensive drivers etc M2´s $$$ -virtues are literally nothing. M2 is primarily intended for shortish listening distance -environment in control room.
I kinds of said this in my post right above yours, but I disagree on the way you present it as always a problem.

It's totally possible to set up or design or treat a room where the problem is not so much a problem.

Also for HT ideally you XO to subwoofers, which you can also located in others places or use them to smooth the response. The problem of a single 15" and room/midbass response is real, but it's not impossible.

I actually did a lot of experimenting with single vs double, even triple 15" - with regards to in room, and outside (driveway) looking at this issue.

Turns out- the single 15" actually sounds the best to me. Measurements are good too.


I tried MTM. I tried double woofers. I even tried triple. I tried speaker upside down on MBM, versus MBM added above it. You name it, I tried it. Measured it. I spend months dragging them outside and measure them too.





My garage looked like a speaker factory for a year



Turns out in the two times I looked at it, the bass response wasn't terrible inside and it sounded better in the midrange.
When I ran the floor MBM, I had the most effective result with a low XO on it, almost using it for baffle step compensation and the very bottom, but keeping it out of the midrange.

I even tried swapping between woofers (TD15 and JBL 2226) and even tried mixing them.

A single 15 can work fine, you just need to set it up right. And the M2 can work from 12 feet back just fine too. The reverse is true, I don't feel like the 4722 would work well at all with a short distance.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1965 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:21 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Wait, so was I supposed to hook up things differently on the 4722 CD when connecting active wires to DSi amps? I looked inside the passive crossover and seen they had the striped wire (had a + next to it's connection on the crossover board) running to the right side and plain to left side. I connected + on channel two of DSi amp to the right side that had + from the passive crossover and other left side as negative which also had a symbol next to it inside the passive crossover. The CD sounded fine.
To make matters more confusing- JBL has swapped back and forth over time. They actually do it right, and have done forever, but the industry changed and so they got stuck in the middle.

@LTD02 had a great post on this subject once, with some information from a harman manual.

I think the real answer depends on the model, and not just the model the the year of manufacture and edition!

Postive is not always red! If that is not enough, sometimes they even use white wires. Da Fuq? haha. You can always test it quickly. Use a 9 volt.

but there must be specific instructions in the manual. If you don't have that, download it.

Lastly, the amp actually flips tweeter polarity. (I know it can't get more confusing right? )

So good luck making sense of it. I could, but my brain is too tired. I use the polarity flip in the amp to fix my own mistake, I wired the woofers wrong inside the box. I just used traditional thinking. Good thing I tested it.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1966 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:25 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgage View Post
Try all of the permutations and take measurements...you'll quickly figure out which way is correct.

CD Woofer
+/- +/-
+/- -/+
-/+ +/-
-/+ -/+
I may just place a call to JBL today. Have several questions. I searched for a bit last night and there is hardly anything on DSi amps running active. Nothing, zilch on the 4722 and just a single homemade video on youtube about audio architect. Thee are some videos from a guy from Harman but they go into networking, the OSI model of packing and unpacking info, how networking works. I don't need all that. I need videos on ow to set up active, use DSP, optimize speakers using all the features the amp has. I am not getting numerous amps in numerous rooms online.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1967 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:26 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
To make matters more confusing- JBL has swapped back and forth over time. They actually do it right, and have done forever, but the industry changed and so they got stuck in the middle.

@LTD02 had a great post on this subject once, with some information from a harman manual.

I think the real answer depends on the model, and not just the model the the year of manufacture and edition!

Postive is not always red! If that is not enough, sometimes they even use white wires. Da Fuq? haha. You can always test it quickly. Use a 9 volt.

but there must be specific instructions in the manual. If you don't have that, download it.

Lastly, the amp actually flips tweeter polarity. (I know it can't get more confusing right? )

So good luck making sense of it. I could, but my brain is too tired. I use the polarity flip in the amp to fix my own mistake, I wired the woofers wrong inside the box. I just used traditional thinking. Good thing I tested it.
Well like I specified I looked inside passive crossover and connected positive (+) from DSi amp to the same connector they had the passive (+) wire in.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1968 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Molon_Labe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,386
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3582 Post(s)
Liked: 4382
Quote:
Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
My five cents to M2 vs. 4722 conversation.

On home theatrical listening distances 4722 has more advantageous dual-woofers basic concept than M2. Takes less damage from always difficult-to-handle floor reflection, that is.
Despite being insanely more expensive, M2 is on underdogs position against its "cheapo" dual woofered brother immediately when exiting from near field: 4722 gets to utilize its better radiation pattern control to minimize that floor bounce. As a result, its takes a lot less floor damage than M2. Compared to this fundamental core-advantage, more expensive drivers etc M2´s $$$ -virtues are literally nothing. M2 is primarily intended for shortish listening distance -environment in control room.
Welcome to the thread. Have you been silently lurking all along?
Mfusick likes this.
Molon_Labe is offline  
post #1969 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:47 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
I remember and can look back.



So then with the info I will look back for does it explain, or does JBL explain how to set up properly for a 630hz crossover? Is it desirable to make the efforts to get that? I assume if they advertise 630 as active they have instructions somewhere how to set that up for optimization right? Call JBL?
Yeah I would just call or email them. They will explain it all in 2 seconds I bet.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1970 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
[QUOTE=Molon_Labe;37124850]@jlpowell84 - Your avatar is sexy /QUOTE]

Thanks! don't one up me with 7 of them!
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1971 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
@jlpowell84 - Your avatar is sexy
@Mfusick - I am running Monoprice XLR on David's subs. What issues am I injecting? I can go with others, but these "appear" to be doing just fine. You got the speakers for the party in the backyard. Where is the pool, cooler, and babes?
The issue is more RCA to XLR, I think normal XLR cables as XLR cables would be fine. There is two ways to wire them internally and for whatever reason the monoprice hummed bad for me. YMMV. I know I was not the only one that had this issue.

The pool is on the other side of those bushes, but this picture was taken back in very early April so no pool weather yet in NE.

The cooler is in the garage. You can totally mix DIY speakers and drinking! Actually it's not a cooler, we have a couple fridges and a frozen drink machine. Come have a margarita!



Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3669.jpg
Views:	505
Size:	273.7 KB
ID:	929754   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3674.jpg
Views:	468
Size:	156.8 KB
ID:	929762  
Molon_Labe likes this.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1972 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 10:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Yeah I would just call or email them. They will explain it all in 2 seconds I bet.
Yea I will use "the Google" to look them up

You know if the woofers were backward it may explain that I did feel the bass was more anemic than it was in my living room. But I just assumed it was the Oppo sending the signal or SBIR off the garage wall or something.

Oh yea, also do you know if running windows on a mac will work for architect? I suppose I will put that on my "ask JBL" list
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1973 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 10:06 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 19,088
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 3084
I am using monoprice xlr to rca but I don't have a choice because my processor is a receiver. Once I find the processor I want I will go all xlr but I don't have any noise issues, my problems came from my metal rack.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
MKtheater is online now  
post #1974 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 10:34 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
So to be sure the question list goes as is. Add anything if anyone wants me to ask and I will add it in.

1. I see the 4722 running active advertises as a 630hz crossover. Does JBL have a guide to set this up properly per JBL specs?

2. How do I wire up woofer and CD sections of the 4722 when running active from Crown DSi amp?

3. Can we all get a free set of surrounds since we all have bought so much gear from you lately?
SeaNile likes this.
jlpowell84 is offline  
post #1975 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 10:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 19,088
Mentioned: 145 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2684 Post(s)
Liked: 3084
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
So to be sure the question list goes as is. Add anything if anyone wants me to ask and I will add it in.

1. I see the 4722 running active advertises as a 630hz crossover. Does JBL have a guide to set this up properly per JBL specs?

2. How do I wire up woofer and CD sections of the 4722 when running active from Crown DSi amp?

3. Can we all get a free set of surrounds since we all have bought so much gear from you lately?

I would think just loading the presets should take care of the speakers performing like intended. As for connections the manual should say which channel to use(crown manual?) You might be able to set this up manually?

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
MKtheater is online now  
post #1976 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 11:03 AM
Member
 
sladi75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I kinds of said this in my post right above yours, but I disagree on the way you present it as always a problem.

It's totally possible to set up or design or treat a room where the problem is not so much a problem.

Also for HT ideally you XO to subwoofers, which you can also located in others places or use them to smooth the response. The problem of a single 15" and room/midbass response is real, but it's not impossible.
Floor reflection shredding resides particularly on lower mid. Subwoofers can´t climb that high to lend their helping paw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Turns out- the single 15" actually sounds the best to me. Measurements are good too.

...

A single 15 can work fine, you just need to set it up right. And the M2 can work from 12 feet back just fine too. The reverse is true, I don't feel like the 4722 would work well at all with a short distance.

Ok, you have studied things in practise "quite much". Very good.

Floor cratered single woofer -reproduced low mid may make midrange "sound better" (which is VERY subjective), although meter-technically quite probably worse. As strict meter man, I would just choose flattest response giving option, and not trying to judge by listening at all. Highly suspect that smoothness winner in real world M2 vs. 4722 -duel in room would be... 4722.

In my opinion 4722 is still only quite smallish two-way loudpspeaker, not needing particular long acoustical band/radiation -summing distance. 6 - 7 feet and upwards is enough for it, I would say. Its bigger (line source resembling) 3-way ScreenArray -brethren are different kind, though. Of course this directive big speakers resolution may be too much from 6-7 feet, if listener is not used to that kind of headphone -kind level of resolution from loudspeaker.



My general point taking part to this conversation was, that 4722 has serious advantage in its ankle holster, too. M2 is not sovereign, granted winner againts it at all, as many of you price tag worshipper -guys seem to think. Our (HT) applications M2 is actually the one which more likely gets its ass kicked by 4722.
It doesn´t hurt either that 4722N is so much cheaper and fully usable in passive mode without dedicated DSP-amps, too. Even headphone output of mobile phone could drive this sensitive speaker to quite hefty levels, so can virtually every AVR on a market.

Last edited by sladi75; 09-08-2015 at 11:06 AM.
sladi75 is offline  
post #1977 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 11:04 AM
Member
 
sladi75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 100 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Welcome to the thread. Have you been silently lurking all along?
Thanks. Yep, been following this thread quite a while on backround.
hypez604 likes this.
sladi75 is offline  
post #1978 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 11:10 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I am using monoprice xlr to rca but I don't have a choice because my processor is a receiver. Once I find the processor I want I will go all xlr but I don't have any noise issues, my problems came from my metal rack.
Mfusick is offline  
post #1979 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 11:17 AM
 
Mfusick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Western MA
Posts: 29,681
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 608 Post(s)
Liked: 2733
Quote:
Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
Floor reflection shredding resides particularly on lower mid. Subwoofers can´t climb that high to lend their helping paw.

Ok, you have studied things in practise "quite much". Very good.

Floor cratered single woofer -reproduced low mid may make midrange "sound better" (which is VERY subjective), although meter-technically quite probably worse. As strict meter man, I would just choose flattest response giving option, and not trying to judge by listening at all. Highly suspect that smoothness winner in real world M2 vs. 4722 -duel in room would be... 4722.

In my opinion 4722 is still only quite smallish two-way loudpspeaker, not needing particular long acoustical band/radiation -summing distance. 6 - 7 feet and upwards is enough for it, I would say. Its bigger (line source resembling) 3-way ScreenArray -brethren are different kind, though. Of course this directive big speakers resolution may be too much from 6-7 feet, if listener is not used to that kind of headphone -kind level of resolution from loudspeaker.

My general point taking part to this conversation was, that 4722 has serious advantage in its ankle holster, too. M2 is not sovereign, granted winner againts it at all, as many of you price tag worshipper -guys seem to think. Our (HT) applications M2 is actually the one which more likely gets its ass kicked by 4722.
It doesn´t hurt either that 4722N is so much cheaper and fully usable in passive mode without dedicated DSP-amps, too. Even headphone output of mobile phone could drive this sensitive speaker to quite hefty levels, so can virtually every AVR on a market.
I don't disagree with some of the things you say, but I do believe speakers are about application and you could match either speaker better or worse to a specific application. You kind of throw a blanket over them both which isn't quite fair, because although you might be right in a certain circumstance you could likely be wrong in another.

It's really too complex to just throw a blanket over.

I doubt most people even understand the issues, but I am impressed you do. Someone that understands what we are talking about should know what they want for what they want to do. The reality is both speakers are great, and could work well.

I have heard both, and I think the M2 is a lot more refined.

My next project DIY is either going to be a synergy horn (active) or something like the M2 and the 4722 had a love child and that love child hit the gym on steroids. The brute of the 4722 on the bottom with the refinement of the M2 on the top. It sucks the parts cost more than a brand new 4722 though...
Mfusick is offline  
post #1980 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 11:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jlpowell84's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Redding CA
Posts: 7,132
Mentioned: 91 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2028 Post(s)
Liked: 1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I would think just loading the presets should take care of the speakers performing like intended. As for connections the manual should say which channel to use(crown manual?) You might be able to set this up manually?
I would agree. But they advertise the active xo at 630hz. I loaded the 4722 presets and playing a 630hz pink noise had zero sound from CD and all from woofer. An 800hz pink noise was pretty balanced between the two and would line up with an 800hz xo. It's not a huge deal to me but I am curious. The wiring I was going to ask because of this mornings comments about them possibly being reversed, or JBL having it backward for some reason.
jlpowell84 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off