Just purchased a pair of JBL 4722n speakers. - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1981 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 12:21 PM
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Yeah, not sure about the wiring being backwards. I wish I had more room in my wall for 4722's, my 3622n's were great too. I took basic measurements of them in room and they went deep!









Here was the subs response from this setup






Building the room, speakers, and subs.

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post #1982 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I don't disagree with some of the things you say, but I do believe speakers are about application and you could match either speaker better or worse to a specific application. You kind of throw a blanket over them both which isn't quite fair, because although you might be right in a certain circumstance you could likely be wrong in another.
So no more comments about a perfect speaker...yes?

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post #1983 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 01:12 PM
 
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So no more comments about a perfect speaker...yes?
If you can demonstrate a technically more accurate (better) speaker I'll buy you dinner.
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post #1984 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
If you can demonstrate a technically more accurate (better) speaker I'll buy you dinner.
Read what you said again, there is no perfect speaker, it depends on the application. Stop being such a fan boy of the M2, I agree it is a very nice speaker but it isn't the best speaker in the world as such a thing doesn't exist.

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post #1985 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 03:04 PM
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Just to confirm something very important about these speakers. The 4722s sound fantastic during the Buckeye's game last night and when Braxton did that spin move, it sounded like it happened right in my man cave...about 10 feet in front of me. If you listen carefully you can hear him say "I'm baaaccckkk" about half way through that jock dropping move..probably can't hear it on a lesser speaker
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post #1986 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
So to be sure the question list goes as is. Add anything if anyone wants me to ask and I will add it in.

1. I see the 4722 running active advertises as a 630hz crossover. Does JBL have a guide to set this up properly per JBL specs?

2. How do I wire up woofer and CD sections of the 4722 when running active from Crown DSi amp?

3. Can we all get a free set of surrounds since we all have bought so much gear from you lately?

I am really interested to find out what jbl have to say about the crossover numbers. i am not sure why the preset would set the crossover at 800hz but the specs listed at 630hz. Maybe only the 4722 can run it at 630hz and not the N version? Or maybe we have to create our own custom preset to accommodate for skipping the built in crossover since they don't even have a preset for the regular 4722.
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post #1987 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspen0220 View Post
Or maybe we have to create our own custom preset to accommodate for skipping the built in crossover since they don't even have a preset for the regular 4722.
Huh? Look at post #1993 .....
The 4722 is the same speaker as the 4722N, just eliminates the network. Same speaker drivers in both.
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post #1988 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrager View Post
Huh? Look at post #1993 .....
The 4722 is the same speaker as the 4722N, just eliminates the network. Same speaker drivers in both.
I'm just speculating what the answer might be. Assuming you buy the 4722, you still have to load the 4722n preset, which will set the xo to 800hz and not the 630hz as listed. DSI amp doesn't have a preset for 4722 which is weird as they should have a preset for the 4722, the one without the network, and not the 4722n, the one with the network. Feel like we might have to create our own preset to run these speakers active. And again, in just speculating. Let us wait and see what jbl has to say.
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post #1989 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspen0220 View Post
I'm just speculating what the answer might be. Assuming you buy the 4722, you still have to load the 4722n preset, which will set the xo to 800hz and not the 630hz as listed. DSI amp doesn't have a preset for 4722 which is weird as they should have a preset for the 4722, the one without the network, and not the 4722n, the one with the network. Feel like we might have to create our own preset to run these speakers active. And again, in just speculating. Let us wait and see what jbl has to say.
I don't think there's any kind of preset which assumes you're using the network. Bypassing the network is child's play. The network is external and completely optional. Turning a 4722n into a 4722 is just a matter of how you run the wiring (outside the box). As I mentioned in my previous post, crossing the CD lower than 760-780hz will result in distortion around XO frequency (a friend of mine tried that already a long time ago). I doubt JBL are going to recommend active xover much lower than 780hz.. but we'll see soon enough I guess
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post #1990 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 04:33 PM
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This thread blew up while I was at the lake this past weekend..

On a side note, for those of you that purchased your JBL's through Full Compass did you get your new catalog today? That company doesn't mess around when they send out a catalog.
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post #1991 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
Floor reflection shredding resides particularly on lower mid. Subwoofers can´t climb that high to lend their helping paw.




Ok, you have studied things in practise "quite much". Very good.

Floor cratered single woofer -reproduced low mid may make midrange "sound better" (which is VERY subjective), although meter-technically quite probably worse. As strict meter man, I would just choose flattest response giving option, and not trying to judge by listening at all. Highly suspect that smoothness winner in real world M2 vs. 4722 -duel in room would be... 4722.

In my opinion 4722 is still only quite smallish two-way loudpspeaker, not needing particular long acoustical band/radiation -summing distance. 6 - 7 feet and upwards is enough for it, I would say. Its bigger (line source resembling) 3-way ScreenArray -brethren are different kind, though. Of course this directive big speakers resolution may be too much from 6-7 feet, if listener is not used to that kind of headphone -kind level of resolution from loudspeaker.



My general point taking part to this conversation was, that 4722 has serious advantage in its ankle holster, too. M2 is not sovereign, granted winner againts it at all, as many of you price tag worshipper -guys seem to think. Our (HT) applications M2 is actually the one which more likely gets its ass kicked by 4722.
It doesn´t hurt either that 4722N is so much cheaper and fully usable in passive mode without dedicated DSP-amps, too. Even headphone output of mobile phone could drive this sensitive speaker to quite hefty levels, so can virtually every AVR on a market.
True, but the floor bounce first cancellation happens in my room and listening position at about at nearly 600 Hz, above schroeder, not in that "low mid' zone you're talking about. But there's no doubt the dual woofer is definitely a positive thing and an advantage. But how does that wall cratered dual woofer deal with the even more significant cancellation off the back wall? Eliminating floor bounce cancellation is a great design goal, but there is a lot more to SQ than eliminating floor bounce, particularly since it is so dependent on circumstance.

If you really want to give the M2 a hard time you should be pointing to a cardioid speaker design as truly superior. I think this design is revolutionary and although I'll have to listen first, once they come out with a big brother to this http://www.kiiaudio.com/en/ my beloved M2's could be in trouble...
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post #1992 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
True, but the floor bounce first cancellation happens in my room and listening position at about at nearly 600 Hz, above schroeder, not in that "low mid' zone you're talking about. But there's no doubt the dual woofer is definitely a positive thing and an advantage. But how does that wall cratered dual woofer deal with the even more significant cancellation off the back wall? Eliminating floor bounce cancellation is a great design goal, but there is a lot more to SQ than eliminating floor bounce, particularly since it is so dependent on circumstance.
It depends on listeners seating heigh, radiators height from floor and listening distance. Here is online calculator:

https://mehlau.net/audio/floorbounce/


Well, 600 Hz is in my books low mid region. Those verbal descriptions of audio bands are not very accurate science...

Dual woofer adds vertical radiation pattern control, wall reflections are out of its means to handle. But isn´t enhanced reflection reduction capability against one major reflecting surface better, than no enhanced reflection reduction capability at all, isn´t it. Floor is always there, and it is most difficult surface to dampen acoustically. It is very beneficial if loudspeaker can handle that vertical problem-direction by its own means as far as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
If you really want to give the M2 a hard time you should be pointing to a cardioid speaker design as truly superior. I think this design is revolutionary and although I'll have to listen first, once they come out with a big brother to this http://www.kiiaudio.com/en/ my beloved M2's could be in trouble...
Yes, cardioid is maybe the most beneficial radiation pattern if acoustical treatments are not allowed. In regular living room, that is. But benefit diminishes if room CAN be heavily treated; as is the case in AVS -members custom install hardcore home theaters. Anyway, here is extremely capable german cardioid-speakers:

http://www.me-geithain.de/index.php/...ve-loudspeaker
http://www.me-geithain.de/index.php/...ve-loudspeaker

True cardioid bass, fully active, "coaxial" driver arrangement. Bigger ones will give M2 extreme run for their money...
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post #1993 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
True, but the floor bounce first cancellation happens in my room and listening position at about at nearly 600 Hz, above schroeder, not in that "low mid' zone you're talking about. But there's no doubt the dual woofer is definitely a positive thing and an advantage. But how does that wall cratered dual woofer deal with the even more significant cancellation off the back wall? Eliminating floor bounce cancellation is a great design goal, but there is a lot more to SQ than eliminating floor bounce, particularly since it is so dependent on circumstance.

If you really want to give the M2 a hard time you should be pointing to a cardioid speaker design as truly superior. I think this design is revolutionary and although I'll have to listen first, once they come out with a big brother to this http://www.kiiaudio.com/en/ my beloved M2's could be in trouble...
Interesting. So they are advertising baffle wall effectiveness without a baffle wall!
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post #1994 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
It depends on listeners seating heigh, radiators height from floor and listening distance. Here is online calculator:

https://mehlau.net/audio/floorbounce/


Well, 600 Hz is in my books low mid region. Those verbal descriptions of audio bands are not very accurate science...

Dual woofer adds vertical radiation pattern control, wall reflections are out of its means to handle. But isn´t enhanced reflection reduction capability against one major reflecting surface better, than no enhanced reflection reduction capability at all, isn´t it. Floor is always there, and it is most difficult surface to dampen acoustically. It is very beneficial if loudspeaker can handle that vertical problem-direction by its own means as far as possible.



Yes, cardioid is maybe the most beneficial radiation pattern if acoustical treatments are not allowed. In regular living room, that is. But benefit diminishes if room CAN be heavily treated; as is the case in AVS -members custom install hardcore home theaters. Anyway, here is extremely capable german cardioid-speakers:

http://www.me-geithain.de/index.php/...ve-loudspeaker
http://www.me-geithain.de/index.php/...ve-loudspeaker

True cardioid bass, fully active, "coaxial" driver arrangement. Bigger ones will give M2 extreme run for their money...
True, less cancellation equals more better . The 4722's rock for sure and I have no doubt they sound excellent. But I wouldn't write the M2's off entirely because of floor bounce(although it's ok if you do ) And besides, thick carpet and good foam padding has an NRC of around .70 at 600 Hz, not a bad attenuation . Thanks for the calculator link but how do you think I came up with the 600Hz number? I'm just an enthusiast and rely on tools like that to actually figure stuff out for me .

I would love to see the step response of those geithains and some more extensive measurements then are on their site, but they sure do look nice and I bet sound fantastic. The step response of those Kii's are exceptional and very good FR too. They have a NJ dealer, I think I'm going to try to have a listen if I can.
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post #1995 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Interesting. So they are advertising baffle wall effectiveness without a baffle wall!
Yeah, very cool, and functional, design! Maintains directivity down to 40 Hz . I need more output though, so will need to wait for the big brother to arrive.

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post #1996 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
But I wouldn't write the M2's off entirely because of floor bounce...
Those were just defensive counter writings for some very misleadingly dismissive writings of you guys, according which while 4722 may be pretty decent, it is just cheap ***** compared to M2´s über-kind-$$$$$$ -awesomeness. Super expensive drivers and five digit price tag... must be superior speaker.

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post #1997 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:00 PM
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I forbid you from listening to Kiis until you have your LSR708s going.

Life is Lambertian
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post #1998 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yeah, very cool, and functional, design! Maintains directivity down to 40 Hz . I need more output though, so will need to wait for the big brother to arrive.
I don't understand yet, need to read more, how on a scientific level how they do that. I plan on a full on quality, stout baffle wall. So I will reap those benefits

For the floor I pan on mega thick carpeting with extra padding as well. I have been in media/theater rooms that have extra thick padding and it's nice!
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post #1999 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:21 PM
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I forbid you from listening to Kiis until you have your LSR708s going.
I would love to play with several models, just don't have that kind of coin. Building a full on theater with what I plan is my whole wad
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post #2000 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
Those were just defensive counter writings for some very misleadingly dismissive writings of you guys, according which while 4722 may be pretty decent, it is just cheap ***** compared to M2´s über-kind-$$$$$$ -awesomeness. Super expensive drivers and five digit price tag... must be superior speaker.
Hey, no problem, as long as you don't insult my mother we're all good . But you won't find a negative thing I've ever said about the 4722's in my posts
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post #2001 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:29 PM
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I forbid you from listening to Kiis until you have your LSR708s going.
Ha! Yeah, I'm looking forward to hearing them myself . Besides, that's just my audio illness raising it's ugly head talking about the Kii's...
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post #2002 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 07:55 PM
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just in case polarity is still an open issue:

jbl speakers had the convention of "red is negative" for a long time. then the world changed and their installed base along with some other developments made simply switching over to "red is positive" problematic. hence the whole problem...


for those interested in history or a list of speakers and their conventions:
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachm...eN1V12C_v5.pdf


the 2432 is a "positive system".
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/The...es/4722-HF.pdf

now, for the confusion. :-) because of the crossover slopes employed and driver spacing, the cd needs to be inverted (reverse polarity) BUT THIS IS ALREADY DONE IN THE SOFTWARE.


I have circled the polarity indicator for the cd in the software.





and regardless of what jbl claims, imho, the acoustic crossover of these is around 775hz. even with a 2db level increase in the cd, the 48db/oct filter will be down about 14db by 630hz and that is on top of the natural rolloff of the driver. (the shelf filter on the c.d. is flat from about 2khz down, so has no effect below that point, so it isn't pushing the crossover point around.)
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post #2003 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by sladi75 View Post
Those were just defensive counter writings for some very misleadingly dismissive writings of you guys, according which while 4722 may be pretty decent, it is just cheap ***** compared to M2´s über-kind-$$$$$$ -awesomeness. Super expensive drivers and five digit price tag... must be superior speaker.
i missed that post. can you point me to who made that argument?
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post #2004 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Aspen0220 View Post
I'm just speculating what the answer might be. Assuming you buy the 4722, you still have to load the 4722n preset, which will set the xo to 800hz and not the 630hz as listed. DSI amp doesn't have a preset for 4722 which is weird as they should have a preset for the 4722, the one without the network, and not the 4722n, the one with the network. Feel like we might have to create our own preset to run these speakers active. And again, in just speculating. Let us wait and see what jbl has to say.

what are you asking? the active feature of the amps is providing the duties of the passive crossover network, plus very minor eq adjustments. in the active speaker, there is no passive network--just the dsi amp hooked directly to the drivers.


setting a "passive 4722N" in the dsi amplifier would do nothing more than those minor equalizations. any eq can be used for that, you wouldn't need a dsi amp, but if you wanted to use the 4722 eq settings, you could do that (just disable all the other 4722 settings except for the equalization tab; just be careful that you actually get them all or you will have a speaker zoo)

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post #2005 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:00 PM
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@LTD02 so then I connect the + from the DSi amp to where the passive had it's + connected. Why the CD would need to have reversed polarity is over my head. I attempted to read some polarity/phase stuff but I would need a 101 course to get started lol. One definition said its for a second signal to arrive at a different time which kinda makes sense but how it relates to everything else is well...
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post #2006 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
@LTD02 so then I connect the + from the DSi amp to where the passive had it's + connected. Why the CD would need to have reversed polarity is over my head. I attempted to read some polarity/phase stuff but I would need a 101 course to get started lol. One definition said its for a second signal to arrive at a different time which kinda makes sense but how it relates to everything else is well...

on the backcap, there should be polarity markings (highlighted in the circles). since the 2432 is a "positive device", you want to hook the "+" on the driver to the "+" on the amp and the "-" on the driver to the "-" on the amp.


and...MAKE SURE THAT YOU ATTACH THE CD TO THE CORRECT CHANNEL ON THE AMP OR YOU COULD BLOW IT UP. not yelling, just emphasizing. (the jbl audioarchitect software that i have with the dsi settings indicate channel 2 is the cd, this can be seen clearly in #2059 and others where i have posted the 4722 settings. I'm not sure if there is a situation where it would or could be reversed. just be sure to doublecheck.)


edit: page 12 of the manual also shows channel 2 going to the HF section in the example describing hookup.


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post #2007 of 7616 Old 09-08-2015, 09:42 PM
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having looked over the 265h-2 drivers, they appear to be "positive devices" as well (red being positive).


the terminal assembly maintains polarity. the red leads connect to the red "+" terminal and the black leads connect to the "-" terminal.


so just like the cd. red "+" on the terminal cup to the "+" on the amp. black "-" on the terminal cup to "-" on the amp.




be sure to double check this with jbl, but at least we have a second source to confirm whatever the tech says.
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post #2008 of 7616 Old 09-09-2015, 04:43 AM
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I checked the LF with a 9 volt battery to confirm cone motion. Can't do that with the CD though...
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post #2009 of 7616 Old 09-09-2015, 06:07 AM
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BTW, that response of the 3622 was with an 80hz crossover.
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post #2010 of 7616 Old 09-09-2015, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i missed that post. can you point me to who made that argument?
It reads between lines all around this thread when ever M2 is mentioned and price tag worshipping begins. "Because $$$$$-driver and dual decker D2-diaphragm 0,01% distortion -improvement, let´s forget everything else..."
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