Why the criticism of Bose? - Page 10 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #271 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 10:36 PM
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Yeah, Bose has no doubt been successful, but the flint-stone arrow was also successful, even though its ability to bring down an animal isn't greater than a sharpened stick and take twenty times as much time to make (see mythbusters ). People weren't born with the tools for dissecting truth from fact, only the willingness to try to put time and effort into what we are convinced is better than the alternative.
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post #272 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Someone definitely drank the(marketing) kool-aid. I needed a good laugh. I wonder if people go back and read their old posts once they learn the truth. Maybe after hearing how much better a decent $1000 system sounds than Bose that misses half the audible frequencies. Despite evidence posted to illustrate why the sound quality is poor, and that the design of the product is poor(single driver "speakers" with no tweeter, bass modules that are peaky, don't play low enough, and don't play high enough to crossover smoothly to the poor quality speakers).

Sadly, one can put together a $7-$800 system that would run circles around the Bose multi thousand dollar lifestyle systems. The system would even use small bookshelf speakers with good WAF and higher quality components(i.e. quality driver, tweeters, crossovers, solid cabs not made of plastic).

Bose has been successful, there is no doubt about it. Their home theater/cube speakers/acoustimass module systems are what typically are frowned upon by those who know you can get much better for much less. The problem for those that realize this is that Bose seems to advertise, and quite effectively, good sound quality. The truth is, the sound is better than TV speakers, which is I believe what many peoples basis of comparison is, but fairly poor compared to even the most modest real sound system. They have developed a cult like following based largely on ignorance with a consumer base who has been brain washed by advertising.
If you read the post you quoted out of context you'd see the poster was not referring to the lifestyle systems; he was referring to other products that have gotten some good comments in this thread- e.g. noise-cancelling headphones, bluetooth speakers, IEM's, etc. I personally have no idea how good the components are in these, but your comments are not relevant to the post you quoted. Do you have any 1st hand knowledge of what kind of components are used in the Bose products the post spoke about?
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post #273 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post
If you read the post you quoted out of context you'd see the poster was not referring to the lifestyle systems; he was referring to other products that have gotten some good comments in this thread- e.g. noise-cancelling headphones, bluetooth speakers, IEM's, etc. I personally have no idea how good the components are in these, but your comments are not relevant to the post you quoted. Do you have any 1st hand knowledge of what kind of components are used in the Bose products the post spoke about?
No I specifically am addressing their speaker systems as I believe that is what most people dislike about Bose. This is the "Speakers" forum after all. Perhaps their bluetooth gadgets and such are fine....I don't think anyone expects accurate sound quality out of those...they are just convenience items.
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post #274 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 11:10 PM
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No I specifically am addressing their speaker systems as I believe that is what most people dislike about Bose. This is the "Speakers" forum after all. Perhaps their bluetooth gadgets and such are fine....I don't think anyone expects accurate sound quality out of those...they are just convenience items.
Yes, it was rather obvious what you were addressing and I'm well aware of what forum we're in, but you seemed to not only miss the gist of the post you quoted, but also the post where I replied to you.

No one has stated that Bose lifestyle systems use quality components. Whereas many have previously stated what you posted. We all know those systems are far from accurate and not hi-fi at all and others have posted about the cheapness of the components those systems use.

But when you quote a post out of context using only the last line that says Bose does use quality components in products other than the lifestyle systems, and then go on to argue against that using lifestyle systems as your example, can you not see how that argument is flawed? Which is why I asked if you had any knowledge about the components used in those other products, as that would actually be relevant to the post you quoted.
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post #275 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
No question Bose has invested substantial sums in engineering and patents of their speaker systems and their lawyers protect and defend against any who try to copy their designs: and remember the Consumers Report article where they gave a negative review of the 901: Bose sued CR...and won

and thanks to Bose they also spawned quite an industry of competitors who designed arguably better speakers at lower costs

just my opinion: nothing wrong with Bose: but there are competitor's products that may be as good, or better...
Actually, they lost.
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post #276 of 496 Old 07-05-2015, 11:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Someone definitely drank the(marketing) kool-aid. I needed a good laugh. I wonder if people go back and read their old posts once they learn the truth. Maybe after hearing how much better a decent $1000 system sounds than Bose that misses half the audible frequencies. Despite evidence posted to illustrate why the sound quality is poor, and that the design of the product is poor(single driver "speakers" with no tweeter, bass modules that are peaky, don't play low enough, and don't play high enough to crossover smoothly to the poor quality speakers).

Sadly, one can put together a $7-$800 system that would run circles around the Bose multi thousand dollar lifestyle systems. The system would even use small bookshelf speakers with good WAF and higher quality components(i.e. quality driver, tweeters, crossovers, solid cabs not made of plastic).

Bose has been successful, there is no doubt about it. Their home theater/cube speakers/acoustimass module systems are what typically are frowned upon by those who know you can get much better for much less. The problem for those that realize this is that Bose seems to advertise, and quite effectively, good sound quality. The truth is, the sound is better than TV speakers, which is I believe what many peoples basis of comparison is, but fairly poor compared to even the most modest real sound system. They have developed a cult like following based largely on ignorance with a consumer base who has been brain washed by advertising.
If you're going to bother to post, you should at least bother to comprehend what you're responding too. You take one sentence out of context and then blather on against an argument I was not making. Why don't we start with what I actually said:

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I do doubt this oft repeated claim that Bose doesn't spend on quality components today, that's just bias and speculation, where is the rash of early Bose failures? The customer base clamouring for a refund? A class action law suit?

None of this is happening because Bose has good quality. Mostly its the folk who don't own any Bose who are claiming they don't use quality components.
I am not arguing that Bose has excellent sound quality, that would be stupid. They are a mass market product, plug and play, simple products for the most part. If one now reads what I did say you can easily see I'm talking about Bose not making products that are failing, falling apart or with a high return rate. Perhaps you can provide proof of the class action lawsuits, or the consumer protection agencies downgrading Bose for high failure/return rates. Please provide actual LINKS for this proof.

And I can't believe someone is using the old "brainwashed by advertising" argument. I will repeat myself again. If it was so easy to ramp up sales with an advertising campaign, then EVERYONE would be following suit, and watching the sales roll in. So there has to be something more to it than a mass conspiracy brainwashing campaign.
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post #277 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
If you're going to bother to post, you should at least bother to comprehend what you're responding too. You take one sentence out of context and then blather on against an argument I was not making. Why don't we start with what I actually said:



I am not arguing that Bose has excellent sound quality, that would be stupid. They are a mass market product, plug and play, simple products for the most part. If one now reads what I did say you can easily see I'm talking about Bose not making products that are failing, falling apart or with a high return rate. Perhaps you can provide proof of the class action lawsuits, or the consumer protection agencies downgrading Bose for high failure/return rates. Please provide actual LINKS for this proof.

And I can't believe someone is using the old "brainwashed by advertising" argument. I will repeat myself again. If it was so easy to ramp up sales with an advertising campaign, then EVERYONE would be following suit, and watching the sales roll in. So there has to be something more to it than a mass conspiracy brainwashing campaign.
Your attempt at a rebuttal is ridiculous. The poor quality of Bose, in particular their speaker systems, has little to do with longevity or failure rates. So your request for links regarding failure rates or lawsuits has nothing to do with anything. The poor quality of Bose refers to the poor sound quality that results from low quality components. I am sorry you don't comprehend this distinction. We can of course resort to your logic. Please provide links to support the notion that Bose uses high quality components which result in good quality sound.

Again, to clear up your confusion, this thread is posted in the Speakers forum and entitled "Why the Hate for Bose." Now go ahead and try really hard again to win some sort of argument on the internet I guess. Congrats if you feel like you win.
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post #278 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 12:45 AM
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So there has to be something more to it than a mass conspiracy brainwashing campaign.
Sound that is better than the TV speakers(what most of their customer base is comparing them to)combined with the biggest advertising machine in the industry and a high price convinces the uninformed that Bose is the best. I have seen it quite a few times with coworkers. They are completely unwilling to accept the possibility that Bose is in fact not the pinnacle of audio sound quality.
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post #279 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 01:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Sound that is better than the TV speakers(what most of their customer base is comparing them to)combined with the biggest advertising machine in the industry and a high price convinces the uninformed that Bose is the best. I have seen it quite a few times with coworkers. They are completely unwilling to accept the possibility that Bose is in fact not the pinnacle of audio sound quality.
You just can't afford a Apple/Bose.
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post #280 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 01:49 AM
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You just can't afford a Apple/Bose.
Dang, you caught me. Although we do have a handful of Apple products in the house, as my wife is in fact an Apple fanatic(i.e. Ipad, Iphone6+, Mac Book Pro, Apple TV, Apple watch enroute for birthday). Does this mean we can't be friends anymore?
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post #281 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
Yeah, Bose has no doubt been successful, but the flint-stone arrow was also successful, even though its ability to bring down an animal isn't greater than a sharpened stick and take twenty times as much time to make (see mythbusters ). People weren't born with the tools for dissecting truth from fact, only the willingness to try to put time and effort into what we are convinced is better than the alternative.
I saw that Myth Busters, they missed the point (pun intended). A sharpened stick can easily fall out of the animal, the arrow head is difficult to remove and on exit will cause more tissue damage. They never tested that.

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post #282 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 01:29 PM
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Here's a reason to criticize Bose. This measurement is from my Mazda 6 with the Bose system. There is no equalizer, but this is the measured response with the bass turned all the way down.



Pretty good from 300 on up, but reasonably high volumes lead to distortion and vibration in the doors. Nothing I can do about it.
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post #283 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 03:28 PM
 
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Here's a reason to criticize Bose. This measurement is from my Mazda 6 with the Bose system. There is no equalizer, but this is the measured response with the bass turned all the way down.


That's what happens when you don't take cabin gain into consideration. The kind of response only a brain dead teenager could love.
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post #284 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 05:34 PM
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Here's a reason to criticize Bose. This measurement is from my Mazda 6 with the Bose system. There is no equalizer, but this is the measured response with the bass turned all the way down.



Pretty good from 300 on up, but reasonably high volumes lead to distortion and vibration in the doors. Nothing I can do about it.
That looks pretty bad. Though it surely doesn't fit w/ the "no highs, no lows."

Certainly a fair criticism of Bose, but also a criticism of Mazda.
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post #285 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 05:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
No I specifically am addressing their speaker systems as I believe that is what most people dislike about Bose. This is the "Speakers" forum after all. Perhaps their bluetooth gadgets and such are fine....I don't think anyone expects accurate sound quality out of those...they are just convenience items.
FWIW I tend to ignore ,opionions ,incoherent rants , beliefs or whatever I read in forums from whomever never owned or repaired a Bose prioduct (s) or specific Bose product in these discusuions ..OTOH I made an exception here and I don't know why
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post #286 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 05:41 PM
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I was asked what the BEST ipod/all-in-one sound thing was last week

BEST? OK, the Behringer iNuke Boom is the BEST! Hands down, no BS...the best.


The lady laughed when she saw the beast...but it would be a pain to stuff in her purse. We agreed if we won the lottery, that 900 pound boomer would be the ultimate garage boom box.

She ended up getting the UE Mini Boom for her laying in bed watching movies on her tablet system.
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post #287 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 05:44 PM
 
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That looks pretty bad. Though it surely doesn't fit w/ the "no highs, no lows."

Certainly a fair criticism of Bose, but also a criticism of Mazda.
I never thought their automotive stuff was all that in fact after listening to quite a few of the OEM Bose systems I thinkthey are overhyped as compared to a good custom aftermarket or other premuim OEM options from other brands .

OTOH what can you do in a noisy unit body Mazda outside of loud anyway ?


I specifically delined the Bose options in my last 2 new GMC trucks whereas my 99 Dodge Ram sport truck had a factory Infinity system option that was I more than pleased with .

OTOH the GMC I have now came with might not have the custom aftermarket system short of a maybe adding a sub and sub amp instead of everthing that it came stock being replaced if it came with somerthing equal to that Infinity that was in the Dodge

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post #288 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 06:23 PM
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I bought my vehicle from a coworker, the stock Bose was replaced with Polk Audio/Alpine

He told me the "Bosectomy" was a pain but worth the effort. His hobby was studio mixing so was very particular about sound equipment.

The Bose 901 I fixed years ago ran $14 for a replacement 4.5 inch full range. I'd say the driver quality was on par with a Kenwood or Sanyo rack type system speaker driver. Had a pair of Bose 101 speakers (single 4.5 inch full range in a plastic box) they were given to me so I used them at work for background music. They had an annoying buzz as the thin plastic created problem which we solved with plumber's putty. They eventually were filed in the circular file when a pair of proper bookshelf speakers appeared one day.

So for you lovers of plastic speakers, plumber's putty works well for the odd buzz. The putty can also be used on PA horns and stamped steel frame speakers to prevent ringing and in car audio to dampen vibration.
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post #289 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 07:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Your attempt at a rebuttal is ridiculous. The poor quality of Bose, in particular their speaker systems, has little to do with longevity or failure rates. So your request for links regarding failure rates or lawsuits has nothing to do with anything. The poor quality of Bose refers to the poor sound quality that results from low quality components. I am sorry you don't comprehend this distinction. We can of course resort to your logic. Please provide links to support the notion that Bose uses high quality components which result in good quality sound.

Again, to clear up your confusion, this thread is posted in the Speakers forum and entitled "Why the Hate for Bose." Now go ahead and try really hard again to win some sort of argument on the internet I guess. Congrats if you feel like you win.
It's baffling that you are so unable to understand simple points I made.

I am not arguing that Bose has good sound quality. I am saying that the products' build quality is good, not that the sound quality is good. They are not built to be hi fidelity. They are built to be mass market. They last well. Take your time.

Their headphones do have good sound quality, however.

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I never thought their automotive stuff was all that in fact after listening to quite a few of the OEM Bose systems I thinkthey are overhyped as compared to a good custom aftermarket or other premuim OEM options from other brands .

OTOH what can you do in a noisy unit body Mazda outside of loud anyway ?


I specifically delined the Bose options in my last 2 new GMC trucks whereas my 99 Dodge Ram sport truck had a factory Infinity system option that was I more than pleased with .

OTOH the GMC I have now came with might not have the custom aftermarket system short of a maybe adding a sub and sub amp instead of everthing that it came stock being replaced if it came with somerthing equal to that Infinity that was in the Dodge
I actually bought a Bose aftermarket car system based on the 901 back in '81- when Bose was still good imo. 2 direct radiating 5 1/4's for the front, 2 5 1/4's w/ a deep grill that contained an angled, rotating piece for directing the sound for the rear and an eq/processor to hook into the head unit, just like the 901's. I really liked the sound and got a lot of compliments on it. Def not too much bass, but some solid low-end. Very spacious sound. Again, probably not to everyone's liking, but I enjoyed it. Not a ton of options back then for cars and most didn't go for aftermarket.

I was installing car stereos back in early 70's; my 1st system was an 8-track! Had the venerable Jensen 6X9 coaxials that lasted through 3-4 head units. That 1st 8-track was an under-dash mount and got ripped-off.
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post #291 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 08:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Sound that is better than the TV speakers(what most of their customer base is comparing them to)combined with the biggest advertising machine in the industry and a high price convinces the uninformed that Bose is the best. I have seen it quite a few times with coworkers. They are completely unwilling to accept the possibility that Bose is in fact not the pinnacle of audio sound quality.
I'm not interested in your opinions based on what your co-workers say. You're flat out saying that Bose's advertising machine, coupled with a high price convinces people that Bose is "the best", whatever that is. Total nonsense. Prove it with data or you're just another uninformed consumer with an ax to grind.
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post #292 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 08:19 PM
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Their headphones do have good sound quality, however.
I haven't heard them but have no reason to believe this may not be true. I have seen evidence that their small blue-tooth speakers sound good for what they are.

Also, I gave you a like on one of your posts, and officially proclaim you the winner of the internet. Congratulations!!!!!!
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post #293 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 08:26 PM
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I'm not interested in your opinions based on what your co-workers say. You're flat out saying that Bose's advertising machine, coupled with a high price convinces people that Bose is "the best", whatever that is. Total nonsense. Prove it with data or you're just another uninformed consumer with an ax to grind.
Any reasonably intelligent human can form reasonably accurate conclusions without quoting scientific studies.

Does Bose use high quality components in their speaker systems? No.
Do Bose speaker systems offer good sound quality compared to comparably or lower priced speaker systems? No.
Do other manufacturers use higher quality components with better sound quality for less money? Yes.
Does Bose spend more money on advertising than all other audio companies combined? Yes.
Do many uninformed consumers believe that Bose offers some of the highest sound quality availabe? Yes.
Can we therefore draw a reasonable conclusion that Bose's reputation for excellent sound quality stems more from advertising effectiveness rather than actual sound quality? Yes
This is easily demonstrated by either measurements or double blind listening tests(which reveal otherwise).

Logic. So simple, even a caveman can do it.

Ok, feel free to proceed with your attempts to win at the internet.
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post #294 of 496 Old 07-06-2015, 09:10 PM
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post #295 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 12:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I'm not interested in your opinions based on what your co-workers say. You're flat out saying that Bose's advertising machine, coupled with a high price convinces people that Bose is "the best", whatever that is. Total nonsense. Prove it with data or you're just another uninformed consumer with an ax to grind.
It's called marketing. There are many companies that have a huge marketing campaign. Apple is another.

Ask a customer why brand Apple/Bose is the best and they'll come out with the marketing spiel, rather than own informed opinion. Most people who buy Bose or Apple is they don't know any better. Bose/Apple is best...but can't say why. I then use the "well can you replace Bose speakers with something else, keeping the Bose unit and bass module" or "Can you replace the Bose unit but keeping the speakers and bass module" or "does the bose unit decode DD/DTS/HD audio" you then get a blank face with replies "Bose are great as they expensive"or "you just can't afford Bose" "Bose have patented direct/reflecting" or "Bose offers big sound from little speakers"

Same for Apple they think it's better but can't explain why. Certainly not for the price, customization, standardization, flexibility, or connectivity of the item. Point out competition, they say others copied Apple, despite the others coming up with the innovation. Or when you point out lack of a feature, saying well I don't need that. Until you show them, then they do. ie USB device, copy and paste with no need for crappy itunes, and software you use doesn't crap up your music in stupid file system. lol
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post #296 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 01:09 AM
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On the rationality of humans; We can't pick every breath we take, every point at which we focus our eyes, every itch we don't scratch automatically, for more than a few hours before the concentration fails. What we would consider rational thought is as automated as the way we scratch our nose, and it is therefore not to be trusted to be acting rationally. Therefore it is wise to avoid arguments contingent on such thinking being possible, let alone common.
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post #297 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 02:47 AM - Thread Starter
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On the rationality of humans; We can't pick every breath we take, every point at which we focus our eyes, every itch we don't scratch automatically, for more than a few hours before the concentration fails. What we would consider rational thought is as automated as the way we scratch our nose, and it is therefore not to be trusted to be acting rationally. Therefore it is wise to avoid arguments contingent on such thinking being possible, let alone common.
I like to say humans are not rational beings, rather emotional beings with the capacity to be rational at times.

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post #298 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
It's called marketing. There are many companies that have a huge marketing campaign. Apple is another.

Ask a customer why brand Apple/Bose is the best and they'll come out with the marketing spiel, rather than own informed opinion. Most people who buy Bose or Apple is they don't know any better. Bose/Apple is best...but can't say why. I then use the "well can you replace Bose speakers with something else, keeping the Bose unit and bass module" or "Can you replace the Bose unit but keeping the speakers and bass module" or "does the bose unit decode DD/DTS/HD audio" you then get a blank face with replies "Bose are great as they expensive"or "you just can't afford Bose" "Bose have patented direct/reflecting" or "Bose offers big sound from little speakers"

Same for Apple they think it's better but can't explain why. Certainly not for the price, customization, standardization, flexibility, or connectivity of the item. Point out competition, they say others copied Apple, despite the others coming up with the innovation. Or when you point out lack of a feature, saying well I don't need that. Until you show them, then they do. ie USB device, copy and paste with no need for crappy itunes, and software you use doesn't crap up your music in stupid file system. lol
Your argument is funny, because when you follow it to its conclusion you are actually admitting that the choices you have made on products you purchase are a direct result of marketing, not based on informed opinion. In essence your argument describes youself as being just the same slave to market campaigns as are the Apple/Bose people you rally against (albeit contrarian marketing campaign) .

Why don't you save yourself and everyone else some time and just cut to the chase and concisely say what your logic concludes.

"I like my marketing slave masters better than yours.."

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post #299 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronny31 View Post
On the rationality of humans; We can't pick every breath we take, every point at which we focus our eyes, every itch we don't scratch automatically, for more than a few hours before the concentration fails. What we would consider rational thought is as automated as the way we scratch our nose, and it is therefore not to be trusted to be acting rationally. Therefore it is wise to avoid arguments contingent on such thinking being possible, let alone common.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DE Theater Room View Post
I like to say humans are not rational beings, rather emotional beings with the capacity to be rational at times.
I prefer the line by the female rabbi in Leaves of Grass: "we're all just animals w/ a mind that tricks us into believing we're something more."

Geez- I never knew it got so deep around here after midnight...
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post #300 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 03:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DE Theater Room View Post
Your argument is funny, because when you follow it to its conclusion you are actually admitting that the choices you have made on products you purchase are a direct result of marketing, not based on informed opinion. In essence your argument describes youself as being just the same slave to market campaigns as are the Apple/Bose people you rally against (albeit contrarian marketing campaign) .

Why don't you save yourself and everyone else some time and just cut to the chase and concisely say what your logic concludes.

"I like my marketing slave masters better than yours.."
wrong. I didn't read a magazine telling me what I should buy, I looked at various products made up my own mind, based on requirements I want. ie if my criteria is drag and drop, USB HD device that rules out all Apple MP3 players. Another criteria is Rockbox support.
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