Why the criticism of Bose? - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 496 Old 07-07-2015, 08:38 PM
 
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FWIW a Prominent spaeker builder designer on one of the popular forums (maybe here ?) once refered to speaker specification sheets as lie sheets and he wasn't joking . He was debunking some comon measurements,methodologies specifically , and specs and describing how they could do that in thier labratory in detail also and how some mis leading specs. can come out


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post #332 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 03:06 AM
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dsrussell said: "...People enjoy music on just about any piece of equipment and most people never listen critically, but love music playing in the background, or in their cars or on the radio..."

I agree. Most people I know do not care about audiophile approved gear. I recommend better audio stuff to friends all the time. But I do not criticize them if they buy and actually enjoy Bose products.

My girlfriend does not listen critically. She likes her Bose Wave radio very much. The advertising convinced her to buy it. It was very convenient and compact. Her only complaint is that it has too much bass.

She was thrilled when I gave her a pair of Bose 301 Mark IV speakers a few months ago.
The 301s sounded better than I expected, especially when powered by the hundred watt per channel Yamaha receiver I also gave her. The receiver was $20 from the Salvation Army. The 301s like lots of power.

A friend had given me the Bose 301 speakers after buying a pair of small Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers that I had recommended. She wanted new speakers to complement her new tv.
My friend loves the Pioneer speakers. She was surprised at how much better the Pioneers were than the Bose 301s.

My girlfriend loves her Bose 301 speakers because they are better than her Wave radio. Better for movies than the tv speakers. Big sound. Strong mid bass. She trusts the brand name Bose. Besides, they were free.

My brother does not listen critically either. He likes his cube Bose Acoustimass system very much. He prefers the Bose speakers to his television speakers. His Bose system makes him happy. I would not pay any money for them.

Should I tell my brother that he wasted his money on overpriced speakers when he enjoys them so much?
Should I tell my girlfriend that her Bose speakers are not accurate when she enjoys them so much?

They both have listened to my Acoustat electrostatic speakers. They acknowledge that the Acoustats are better, much better.
But they enjoy their Bose systems, and more importantly, they have no desire to spend money trading up. Bose makes them happy.
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post #333 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 05:06 AM
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Well, the dilemma is...they can "trade down", in terms of dollars and still get an improvement in SQ (as you mention with the Bose 301 to AJ Pioneer speakers example).

Of course no one should go out of their way to tell someone who owns and likes a Bose system that their system doesn't perform well, in terms of output and FR measurements. However, this is a science-audio forum and while we all discuss what we like, we also discuss things like electronic crossovers, freq response measurements, spl levels, driver limitations, cabinet design, etc. In some of those discussions, Bose doesn't fair so well...
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post #334 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by discopaul View Post
They always sounded midrangey to me, and never sounded like actual live music. Just gimmicky. My experience is more with Khorns, Magnepans, B&W, and Infinity.
>>>>>Gimmicky? But a lot of people bought bose than any other high end audio products, why?
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post #335 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 06:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
>>>>>Gimmicky? But a lot of people bought bose than any other high end audio products, why?
Lack of research.
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post #336 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by noelm View Post
dsrussell said: "...People enjoy music on just about any piece of equipment and most people never listen critically, but love music playing in the background, or in their cars or on the radio..."

I agree. Most people I know do not care about audiophile approved gear. I recommend better audio stuff to friends all the time. But I do not criticize them if they buy and actually enjoy Bose products.

My girlfriend does not listen critically. She likes her Bose Wave radio very much. The advertising convinced her to buy it. It was very convenient and compact. Her only complaint is that it has too much bass.

She was thrilled when I gave her a pair of Bose 301 Mark IV speakers a few months ago.
The 301s sounded better than I expected, especially when powered by the hundred watt per channel Yamaha receiver I also gave her. The receiver was $20 from the Salvation Army. The 301s like lots of power.

A friend had given me the Bose 301 speakers after buying a pair of small Andrew Jones designed Pioneer speakers that I had recommended. She wanted new speakers to complement her new tv.
My friend loves the Pioneer speakers. She was surprised at how much better the Pioneers were than the Bose 301s.

My girlfriend loves her Bose 301 speakers because they are better than her Wave radio. Better for movies than the tv speakers. Big sound. Strong mid bass. She trusts the brand name Bose. Besides, they were free.

My brother does not listen critically either. He likes his cube Bose Acoustimass system very much. He prefers the Bose speakers to his television speakers. His Bose system makes him happy. I would not pay any money for them.

Should I tell my brother that he wasted his money on overpriced speakers when he enjoys them so much?
Should I tell my girlfriend that her Bose speakers are not accurate when she enjoys them so much?

They both have listened to my Acoustat electrostatic speakers. They acknowledge that the Acoustats are better, much better.
But they enjoy their Bose systems, and more importantly, they have no desire to spend money trading up. Bose makes them happy.
That's correct! its a matter of choice, what you hear is right for you then, go for it if you can afford.
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post #337 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
Lack of research.
A lot of research already, tell me what you know and I will answer you.
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
A lot of research already, tell me what you know and I will answer you.
I'm stating Bose customers do not do any research. They are usually wowed by instore demos and purchase the Bose products without going online and seeing what other products are available at the same price point.
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post #339 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
-Lots of companies sell small "form factor" speakers with small drivers. Those will be limited in their ability to produce a decent range or volume. Bose further "complicates" by having no tweeter. Last but not least, many Bose systems uses the bass module, which is upper midbass only and CANNOT be confused with even a crappy subwoofer...however, most companies who produce limited small form factor speakers are cheaper than Bose and sound as good or better (especially if they have a tweeter).
-Bose DOES NOT use expensive drivers in their speakers.
-Bose advertises a lot of junk science- Twidller technology, Truespace signal processing and etc, etc, that has no basis in science for any audio improvements.
-Bose refuses to allow professional publications to do reviews, assumable becuase they know they won't make Bose look good. I was told by one Bose rep, when I simply asked what size and configuration of drivers were in the Bose Cinemate soundbar "why does it matter, as long as it sounds good"!

In a nut shell, the bang doesn't equal the buck...
It was Bose who actually started the idea of making very small cubes speaker system, then followed by Cambridge, and so on.... The idea was to make if possible an invisible speaker system while filling it with sounds everywhere in your living room. And they're abled to achieved it. I think all high end audio manufacturers showcase their technology in their ads right? This should be normal for any marketing. I think this Bose made strategy not to allow their products to be compared to other high end products because their approach to sound reproduction is different. For example, they want to fill your living room with sounds, and its true they achieved it, you will hear the same sounds almost anywhere in the room. But this could give poor results in terms of accuracies.
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post #340 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:08 AM
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Love how all the "experts" bash one brand vs. another but in the same breath they listen to 99% of their music as garbage MP3 format or streamed online low quality music. Whats lost in all of this is the fact that sadly all of our music content has been compacted into formats that lose the fidelity and depth of the true music. Thank you Apple for compacting a 80MB .wav song into 80kb and selling it to the masses as an alternative.
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post #341 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
I'm stating Bose customers do not do any research. They are usually wowed by instore demos and purchase the Bose products without going online and seeing what other products are available at the same price point.
If Bose can make a nice demo rooms to persuade the consumers, why other high end audio manufacturers cannot? After all this is business. You need to sell your product, right.
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post #342 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by DE Theater Room View Post
I read a lot of statements saying that Bose speakers are inferior for their price and their popularity is only due to marketing, but I haven't read a concise account of their audio shortcomings.

My questions are what are their product's audio profile, what are the shortcomings, and how do these shortcomings compare to other products in their price point?

Thanks.
I consider Bose speakers like Apple products. If you drank the cool aid then you believe their products are better than the competition. When in reality they are overpriced garbage. Give me a high end custom built PC, Android Phone and B & W speakers over Bose and Apple products any day of the week.

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post #343 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Transmaniacon View Post
No highs, no lows, must be Bose.


Correct. But the problem here they have High Sales!
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post #344 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Integration View Post
Blose

Even more disturbing is that per dealer agreement they MUST be kept separated from the other components or at least that was a requirement.


Translation-If you compare our speakers we lose


Many times it said, Bose lose in comparison to others. But still they got lot of sales.
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post #345 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Montucky View Post
While I won't TOTALLY bash Bose, because they do make some pretty enjoyable consumer products like their little bluetooth speaker, I will say that on the home theater front, I can't support them due to the extremely poor value they offer when compared to other products.

Even the dirt cheap Monoprice 5.1 speaker set absolutely smokes the microcube speaker packages that Bose sells for much, much more.

What they HAVE succeeded in is total brand recognition. Everybody knows the name. They've become the Apple of the audio world, except with even less value. As an installer, it just makes me sick to see the amount of Bose products that I do around town. Not because it's Bose necessarily, but rather because I know the customer got totally ripped off and I could have set them up with something far superior for a fraction of the cost. I look out for my customers like that.

The sad truth is that people overwhelmingly are easily persuaded by good marketing, which is something that Bose is exceedingly good at.
If the truth is that "people are easily persuaded by good marketing" why other manufacturers cannot replicate that? This is business.
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post #346 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DE Theater Room View Post
Excellent reading! Thanks for sharing that as it was the kind of explanation that I was looking for!


The problem with the link site does not have a room for responses of comments to write from the readers that would be fairer.
I think the site is fixed. Comments and responses are not allowed.
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post #347 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dukedallas2005 View Post
Whats lost in all of this is the fact that sadly all of our music content has been compacted into formats that lose the fidelity and depth of the true music. Thank you Apple for compacting a 80MB .wav song into 80kb and selling it to the masses as an alternative.
As much as I do not care for the lowly bitrates used on itunes, thankfully that cheeky ratio is not accurate.
Ironically, your example is more representative of Bose and the majority of their products. Inferior quality that is widely perceived as Hi-Fi.

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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
If Bose can make a nice demo rooms to persuade the consumers, why other high end audio manufacturers cannot? After all this is business. You need to sell your product, right.
It is extremely disingenuous to create a room that is specially treated to maximize the few positives of the product as well compensate greatly for its faults, such as additional electronics not sold in the package, while claiming that the product will produce similar results in any customers home.

Then with conventional retail spaces paying for a controlled demo station that prevents reasonable comparisons with other audio components because it will reveal that the emperor has no clothes is clearly a prudent business decision when that product has such poor performance.

Yet it can be loud!!! In a petite package.

Now the fellow who irrationally hates Apple, their products are not garbage and perform quite well, unlike Bose, but I will agree that the products are typically overpriced in comparison to similar products offered by others.

Best regards,
KvE
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post #348 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DE Theater Room View Post
I can certainly understand if they are marketing their "sound," which appears to be high dB output at the 2 kHz -4 kHz (on the low end) and 12khz -15 kHz (on the high end), and using cheap speakers to produce that. One thing seems for sure is they do produce a unique sound and it is very plesent to many people.
Yes that's correct. But one thing I cannot understand that many said in the internet blog and forums, that Bose uses very cheap paper cone and plastic boxes in their acoustimass. But if you see today a lot of bose acoustimass that have been bought 20years ago is still very much alive today (like the one from my uncle, the first bose acoustimass model). If it is made of cheap materials in construction, it should easily wear out, right, but its not the case. If you go around stores that selling used audio equipments, you cannot easily find that of Bose. If there is it can easily be sold out because many people are looking for it. Also i think lot of bose owners were keeping it with them for long, I have friends from 2 families which they owned acoustimass since 9 years ago and they are still using it until now.


For audio purists, they cannot appreciate the bose speakers due to its poor results when making audio measurements as compared to others.

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post #349 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by NuSoardGraphite View Post
This, times a billion.


Although to be fair, that article was written in 2004, and perhaps after all the criticism, Bose has improved their designs since then, but the damage to their reputation has been done and once cemented, is very difficult to undo.
Though, that article was written in 2004 (which doesn't allow written responses from the readers), Bose has made acoustimass system since late 80's I think. But until now, many of those early made acosutimasses are still alive and kicking today. This will contradict the claim of that article that bose uses cheap papercone speakers and plastic cubes. That article is not right.
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post #350 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dukedallas2005 View Post
Love how all the "experts" bash one brand vs. another but in the same breath they listen to 99% of their music as garbage MP3 format or streamed online low quality music. Whats lost in all of this is the fact that sadly all of our music content has been compacted into formats that lose the fidelity and depth of the true music. Thank you Apple for compacting a 80MB .wav song into 80kb and selling it to the masses as an alternative.
Probably not true for this audience, thankfully.


i myself have about 500G of FLAC files that are my primary music source. I do have some 320kps mp3s from back in the day when I would rip my CDs to my Creative Labs Jukebox. Some of them play pretty well, actually.
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post #351 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
Yes that's correct. But one thing I cannot understand that many said in the internet blog and forums, that Bose uses very cheap paper cone and plastic boxes in their acoustimass. But if you see today a lot of bose acoustimass that have been bought 20years ago is still very much alive today (like the one from my uncle, the first bose acoustimass model). If it is made of cheap materials in construction, it should easily wear out, right, but its not the case. If you go around stores that selling used audio equipments, you cannot easily find that of Bose. If there is it can easily be sold out because many people are looking for it. Also i think lot of bose owners were keeping it with them for long, I have friends from 2 families which they owned acoustimass since 9 years ago and they are still using it until now.


For audio purists, they cannot appreciate the bose speakers due to its poor results when making audio measurements as compared to others.
To be fair, it is safe to say that most Bose owners are not audio "enthusiasts". Therefore, you can argue they do not listen to music as frequent as AVS'ers, nor do they listen at a volume level that is typical of an enthusiast. I would think most Bose owners would listen at the sound level of background music.

I'd love to see how Bose would do at say, 90dB, even in a short timeframe. I'd love to see how those cheap a$$ paper stuff holds up.
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post #352 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
For audio purists, they cannot appreciate the bose speakers due to its poor results when making audio measurements as compared to others.
I used to think Bose had nice stuff—after all, the only place I had heard them was in their demo rooms. Then two things changed my mind. The first was buying a Benz that had an upgraded factory Bose sound system. It was mediocre at best—the definition of no highs, no lows. The base stereo I had in the very first car I ever bought new (a Brazilian-made VW Fox) bested the Benz's Bose.

The second was going to a friend's house for a Seinfeld finale party. They had just bought one of the >$3K Lifestyle systems, and when I first saw it, I thought, "ooh—this is gonna sound good."

It didn't. It didn't even sound ok. It was awful. I was tempted to turn it off and switch the tv speakers back on, it was so bad. But I didn't, and I never said anything to the hosts, as that'd be rude.

So in my case, it's not that Bose doesn't measure well compared to other speakers, but rather that I think they sound flippin' lousy.
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post #353 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
It was Bose who actually started the idea of making very small cubes speaker system, then followed by Cambridge, and so on.... The idea was to make if possible an invisible speaker system while filling it with sounds everywhere in your living room. And they're abled to achieved it. I think all high end audio manufacturers showcase their technology in their ads right? This should be normal for any marketing. I think this Bose made strategy not to allow their products to be compared to other high end products because their approach to sound reproduction is different. For example, they want to fill your living room with sounds, and its true they achieved it, you will hear the same sounds almost anywhere in the room. But this could give poor results in terms of accuracies.
It doesn't matter whose idea it is...if I want a small form factor speaker AND get the most bang for the buck, there are other speaker that will have better output and a flatter FR than Bose. Lots of small form factor speakers are actually two way speakers with a TWEETER and a tweeter-less speaker will NOT LIKELY produce highs like one with a tweeter.
Bose has a strategy to sell to people who want:
1. Simple to set up
2. Small form factor
3. Sound better than TV speakers
And they have done well targeting and selling to that group. Anyone who wants not only better than TV speakers, but the best possible sound for the money will/should look to other brands.
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post #354 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 09:59 AM
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I think people should think it properly why Bose is expensive, if ever.


Think about Levis, iPhone, GoPro, Luis Vuiton, Intel, Microsoft, Alienware, etc,. The key word is "What Matters Most". The companies beforehand had made a very deep critical thinking and analysis of what really matters most to the people before it is being manufactured. It did not happened by accident.
Can they be compensated because of this breakthrough? That's why the price is expensive compared to others with same quality or maybe higher. Is it fair or not?


So what is it in the case of Bose?


I presumed many knows the life of Amar Bose in 60s before he created the company. He first made bose 901 and was instantly got success and acclaimed in many audio industries and people around the world. Sure this was not achieved by simple accident, it made a thorough deep thinking of Amar before it is being made. Until now, after 50+ years the speaker design is almost still the same and keep on selling.


It was Bose ever first who made the idea of small cubes speaker system design in 90s (The Acoustimass). The rest follows.


It was Bose ever first who made Active Noise Cancelling Headphones. The rest follows.


These are breakthroughs. Can they be compensated on this? Otherwise we just buy other products.
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post #355 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro-People View Post
But one thing I cannot understand that many said in the internet blog and forums, that Bose uses very cheap paper cone and plastic boxes in their acoustimass. But if you see today a lot of bose acoustimass that have been bought 20years ago is still very much alive today (like the one from my uncle, the first bose acoustimass model). If it is made of cheap materials in construction, it should easily wear out, right, but its not the case. Also i think lot of bose owners were keeping it with them for long, I have friends from 2 families which they owned acoustimass since 9 years ago and they are still using it until now.

For audio purists, they cannot appreciate the bose speakers due to its poor results when making audio measurements as compared to others.
Even cheap plastic lasts a loooooooooog time! Cheap untreated paper cones last for decades so not a problem. If you want problems, get the Bose series that used foam surrounds and you'll have reliability problems.

Speakers will last for decades if you don't blow them up. Intercom speakers are very inexpensive but last 25 to 50 years before they "wear out". Last year I replaced the bees wax capacitors in a pair of Frasier speakers from 1968, after 46 years they needed it. I've seen 25 year old boomboxes in garages still cranking out the tunes 8 hours a day for decades.

Bose stuff does break, take a Bose 901, bridge a Carver M1.0t and play the 1812 Overture through it--the 8Hz sonic boom will launch those cones out of the gap and they don't come back. (no EQ box used) I was given a pair of Bose 101s and took them apart, the thin plastic boxes were buzzing so I used plumber's putty to stiffen them up, a bit of pillow stuffings to clean up the sound an done. Since I enjoy treble and bass response, I gave them away to be used for background music.

Most of the people on this forum have home theater systems--the Bose cube stuff will not work for that if you want to meet THX standards. It is not an impossible standard to meet, I had a Logitech 5.1 powered system for $300 that did meet the minimum standards. The great thing about a standard is you pass or fail...easy to understand. You can look on the THX website and they will tell you what the standards are, what they mean and how to meet them.

They have their niche', the smallest speakers possible to give low SPL sound that is better than TVs and boomboxes--just don't expect much more than that and you'll be fine.
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post #356 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 11:06 AM
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>>>>>Gimmicky? But a lot of people bought bose than any other high end audio products, why?
Marketing. I've ran into a whole bunch of people who really no little about audio but know the bose name. As a result, selling bose crap speakers is an easy sell due to brand recognition.
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post #357 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 11:30 AM
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I think people should think it properly why Bose is expensive, if ever.


So what is it in the case of Bose?

I presumed many knows the life of Amar Bose in 60s before he created the company. He first made bose 901 and was instantly got success and acclaimed in many audio industries and people around the world. Sure this was not achieved by simple accident, it made a thorough deep thinking of Amar before it is being made. Until now, after 50+ years the speaker design is almost still the same and keep on selling.

It was Bose ever first who made the idea of small cubes speaker system design in 90s (The Acoustimass). The rest follows.

It was Bose ever first who made Active Noise Cancelling Headphones. The rest follows.

These are breakthroughs. Can they be compensated on this? Otherwise we just buy other products.
What of Uncle Amar?
He did well to steal the Popular Electronics open source "stereo 16", cut the amount of speakers in half and roll.
http://www.roger-russell.com/columns/columns.htm#sweet

Noise cancelling headphones were invented in the 1950's so you can forget Bose.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-...ing_headphones

The AM-5 speakers came out in 1985 and no, Bose was not the first with small speakers or "bass modules". The subwoofer was invented in 1968 by Infinity and JBL had a speaker system with a subwoofer in the 1970's. By the early 80's, there were quite a few subwoofer manufacturers available long before Bose "invented" it.

My brother has a Bose speaker and a friend of mine has one of their radio things. Although my brother's Bose are not what I like, he is happy since I added a (non Bose) powered 12" subwoofer to get the lows he demands.

Next time you go to an arena concert or sports stadium look at the brand on the speakers... look at the brands at your local theater (speakers behind the screen)

Then ask yourself why they use the "other brands".
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post #358 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 12:12 PM
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If you want to know the frequency behind Bose drivers just go the source. On Bose's Pro site one can read frequency graphs all day long. Shock, a lot of Bose paper drivers go up to 16K,19K and yes 20K.














http://worldwide.bose.com/pro/en_us/...kers/page.html


They provide specs to those who know how to use them, professional installers and engineers.
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post #359 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 12:17 PM
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And Zu Audio, which has a loyal following and growing kind of shares the same concept with Bose, except Zu has tweeter that takes over at 12K, but keeps the crossover out of the crucial midrange.
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post #360 of 496 Old 08-05-2015, 12:27 PM
 
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The real problem with Bose is that they truly don't sound better than many $50 speakers (Infinity, Pioneer, Boston, etc.).

If Bose speakers only cost $50 each, no one would care to complain.
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