Would you buy a 10K Chinese Made Speaker labelled Made in USA ?? - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by skriefal View Post
Those $130 speakers are highly regarded for their price. Big difference there. And has no bearing on whether a $10k speaker is worth its price.
I disagree. Getting exceptionally good sound quality out of a $130 speaker should definitely make one question the value, or lack thereof, of a $10k speaker. There comes a point where people are just paying for the name, prestige, and mostly markup, rather than actual component, build, or sound quality. And this comes way before $10k. Again, when one can get superb quality, finish, and sound quality out of a $1500 pair of speakers, $10K is just snake oil imo.
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post #302 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
No, if anything the correct labeling is more likely designed and assembled in the US from foreign components. Denmark is probably higher up the list than China in this case anyways. Up to Mr Kelly to explain (or not) and the market to take its toll.
Here's a question for you: How certain are you in your probability guessing assumption? ...Say from zero to one hundred.
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post #303 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:09 PM
 
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Here's a question for you: How certain are you in your probability guessing assumption? ...Say from zero to one hundred.
I'm only going by the few somewhat facts in this thread....the cabinets only are of China origin it seems, the drivers are all of Danish origin (as the cabinets used to be). Crossovers unknown. Assembled in US. Then there's my 30 years experience as a customs broker and dealing with importers of all kinds. What's your experience....you can't even seem to read an origin sticker on your own gear?
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post #304 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:25 PM
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Sean, being a student of economics, is probably familiar with the following.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM
Haha, it's been a while since I saw that movie. Thankfully my Professor isn't that dry. For the record 'student of economics' gives me a little more credit then I'm due. I'm studying it, yes - but only as part of a business degree. I don't plan to go any further with it then what I'm required to do. Still, interesting enough stuff.
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post #305 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:46 PM
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post #306 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 09:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I'm only going by the few somewhat facts in this thread....the cabinets only are of China origin it seems, the drivers are all of Danish origin (as the cabinets used to be). Crossovers unknown. Assembled in US. Then there's my 30 years experience as a customs broker and dealing with importers of all kinds. What's your experience....you can't even seem to read an origin sticker on your own gear?
Too much gear...too much music...not enough time to waste remembering all the stickers origins. /// I'm an artist.
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post #307 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 10:21 PM
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I think many people here have missed Mr. Kelly's post (submitted yesterday), because Mr. Kelly joined and posted a reply, but since it was his first post, moderators had to approve it. Which means many posts were added to the thread and I think many have missed it. See post 265:https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post36174434
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post #308 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
I disagree. Getting exceptionally good sound quality out of a $130 speaker should definitely make one question the value, or lack thereof, of a $10k speaker. There comes a point where people are just paying for the name, prestige, and mostly markup, rather than actual component, build, or sound quality. And this comes way before $10k. Again, when one can get superb quality, finish, and sound quality out of a $1500 pair of speakers, $10K is just snake oil imo.
So you believe that because a $1500 speaker is of high quality (and the Sierra-2 is very good), that it somehow follows that every $10k speaker must be overpriced snake oil? Certainly that is true of some; maybe even of many. But there are no absolutes.

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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I think many people here have missed Mr. Kelly's post (submitted yesterday), because Mr. Kelly joined and posted a reply, but since it was his first post, moderators had to approve it. Which means many posts were added to the thread and I think many have missed it. See post 265:
Thank you!

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post #309 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 11:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I think many people here have missed Mr. Kelly's post (submitted yesterday), because Mr. Kelly joined and posted a reply, but since it was his first post, moderators had to approve it. Which means many posts were added to the thread and I think many have missed it. See post 265:https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post36174434
Thank you; I did miss that post by Mr. Kelly...in fact I missed the entire page. ...This thread really took off...and there are many comments that deserve serious thought.
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post #310 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by skriefal View Post
So you believe that because a $1500 speaker is of high quality (and the Sierra-2 is very good), that it somehow follows that every $10k speaker must be overpriced snake oil? Certainly that is true of some; maybe even of many. But there are no absolutes.
I agree with this conclusion.
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post #311 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
I think many people here have missed Mr. Kelly's post (submitted yesterday), because Mr. Kelly joined and posted a reply, but since it was his first post, moderators had to approve it. Which means many posts were added to the thread and I think many have missed it. See post 265:https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post36174434
Seems like people missed not only Mr. Kelly's post (I did too, since it got posted after submission and inserted after many subsequent entries were made) but they also missed your notification about it. I think everyone ought to read his post and digest it before adding any more cents and fuel here. Sounded pretty reasonable to me.
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post #312 of 406 Old 07-31-2015, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Kelly View Post
I am a new poster to the AVS Forum. I began following this thread on 28 July.

I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."

{section of post deleted by beaveav just to keep this reply shorter}

Thank you.

Michael Kelly
President
Aerial Acoustics
Seems like an entirely reasonable reply. A mistake was made, is acknowledged, and will be fixed. Thanks for posting.

Oh, one last thing, don't forget to change the Facebook page too. :-)
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post #313 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 05:06 AM
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And the OP needs to update his website as well. Not an authorized dealer of AA. By the way crickets on a few questions directed his way, while the owner of AA has supplied his answer.

I would also commend Mr. Kelly for staying above the fray and not trashing the OP, good to see he is classier than that even though I suspect he has the ammo to do so. While I am not in the market for a pair of $10k speakers since I enjoy the sound of my current ones, if I ever am AA will get a look.

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post #314 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 05:56 AM
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My personal opinion this thread and the OP should not have posted this. It's BS.

I have not heard an Aerial product. It is one of the few speakers I have not auditioned but ratings reviews are stellar. I have no stake in this thread or AA speakers.

Perhaps the label should have said "Assembled in USA" but that should be decided thru other governing bodies not a bunch of folks on AVS who love to follow the crowd in conversation and actions.

If this brand was shady, poor qc quality, poor customer service etc well maybe. But this issue should not have been vented here IMO. You are putting a companies reputation on the line and in this day where the "followers" here who latch on to every post and think ID is gods greatest gift and any speaker above $1500 is snake oil is ridiculous. This issue should not have been vented here unless you are an expert in Regulatory and other similar matters. It does sound like AA is going to change the label according to an earlier post. Fair enough.

The company I work for makes or buys 1000s of items we sell worldwide. A couple of these products come out of Israel. You do know that there are countries that forbid products made in Israel and are not allowed to be imported? You do understand that it is our companies right and backed by legal and our internal Regulatory team to approve if valid and allow us to "slightly reconfigure" these products in another of our mfg sites and the made in Israel stamp is no longer required? Each company has a different take and most are represented and approved by a Regulatory body and not governed by a hobby forum.

I'm not saying leave the label as made in USA on AA speaker but this should have been handled in a different way IMO. To me this is a non -issue with an engineering change to the label.

Rick

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post #315 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Kelly View Post
I am a new poster to the AVS Forum. I began following this thread on 28 July.

I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."

First I would like to say that every speaker Aerial has ever sold has been assembled and tested right here in Massachusetts by us. We have never sold any speaker system assembled in China or elsewhere.

We have always pursued the best quality performance and appearance, and that search has led us overseas. In the case of drivers, it has been primarily to Europe. In the case of cabinets, we started off using wood cabinets from American suppliers and casting our own Novalith stone heads right here in house.

Our on-going quest for higher quality led us first to Denmark and then, like many other high-end speaker manufacturers, to China. This was not for cost but, more importantly, for higher construction quality, greater capability with complex shapes and better finishes. In addition, our Danish supplier went out of business.

There are numerous suppliers in China, a select few of which are world-class. These particular companies offer excellent quality, outstanding production capabilities including the latest specialized German and Italian machinery, good environmental conditions including the more expensive formaldehyde-free MDF and low-toxin glues used in our cabinets, and fair labor practices.

We truly wish we could use more US suppliers. It would certainly be easier and probably not too much more expensive. In some other industries, US manufacturers are certainly the best in the world. Unfortunately that does not seem to be true for high-end drivers and speaker cabinets.

I believe our current products to be truly excellent performers, extremely well-made and very high value. They are the best we have ever made.

We will shortly add a statement to our website about our policies, design, engineering and history. I hope you will find this interesting.

Thank you.

Michael Kelly
President
Aerial Acoustics

Michael,


Welcome to the forum and thank you for your response. I was not surprised that you chose to address the issue directly without any personal attacks against the OP. It only confirms my statement in the Aerial Acoustics thread that you are a first class individual and that you run your company in the same fashion. I am personally grateful to you for researching manufacturing methods that help to control your production costs. Your doing so made it possible for me to be able to afford my Aerial Acoustics speakers. I agree it would be ideal if all aspects of manufacturing could be accomplished in the USA, but that is simply not the world we live in today.


Your speaker designs have ceased the seemingly never ending need for upgrade for those of us that have been fortunate enough to own Aerial Acoustics. The only change I see in my future would be to upgrade to a full array of 7t's like another well known Aerial fan here on AVS has done. For now, I am content with enjoying my LR5's and LR3's.


We have an Aerial Acoustics thread dedicated to those who own or have an interest in Aerial Acoustics speakers. I hope that you will participate in our discussion there.


David

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post #316 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 06:41 AM
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I do completely agree with the comments about substantial content. We, like many other speaker companies and other manufacturers in general, have taken the Made in USA label too lightly. I apologize for this oversight. We want to be accurate. We will change our terminal plates to read "Designed, Engineered and Assembled in the USA."
thank you, i always feel the 1st paragraph most important
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post #317 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
That 2012 Stereophile review does suggest that their sources are providing parts that meet their specifications. Suggests to me they've sourced well.
Yes, when MK delivered the 7Ts to me, he talked at great length about all the components and their sourcing. He also mentioned that their Danish cabinet supplier had gone out of business. As for the picture showing "Made in USA," I took no notice of the text and intended it to show the terminal/connection arrangements.

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post #318 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 07:48 AM
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post #319 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 08:13 AM
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While we all...myself included...commend MK for posting, and indeed taking the high road; let's just not lose sight of the fact, that it didn't happen proactively.

My point being...if we're all better off (and I think we are); for the explanation, "apology", and coming change in labeling...it did take this thread, to bring it about. Some of you are still bashing Craig, the OP; especially in light of MKs magnanimous response. But do you think it would have happened, an other way?

No offense meant to Mr. Kelly; I'm sure he's a reasonable man. But I somehow doubt, if a single dealer had just asked; the same result would have been accomplished. Besides...people need to know, about what transpired previously; as well, as the correction and more transparency happening...moving forward.

In other words: don't kill the messenger.

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post #320 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 08:18 AM
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But do you think it would have happened, an other way?
if the OP wrote the topic/post differently....Yes

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post #321 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
While we all...myself included...commend MK for posting, and indeed taking the high road; let's just not lose sight of the fact, that it didn't happen proactively.

My point being...if we're all better off (and I think we are); for the explanation, "apology", and coming change in labeling...it did take this thread, to bring it about. Some of you are still bashing Craig, the OP; especially in light of MKs magnanimous response. But do you think it would have happened, an other way?

No offense meant to Mr. Kelly; I'm sure he's a reasonable man. But I somehow doubt, if a single dealer had just asked; the same result would have been accomplished. Besides...people need to know, about what transpired previously; as well, as the correction and more transparency happening...moving forward.

In other words: don't kill the messenger.
better it should happen this way rather than potentially having to do with a gov't agency or politician. Governing bodies don't function to pre-approve the legitimacy of whether something is properly labeled. They issue guidelines and expect you to follow them. They react when there's a complaint or an allegation. Local chamber of commerce could have assisted. But good move by Kelly. Now I wonder who else is playing loose with country of origin?

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post #322 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
better it should happen this way rather than potentially having to do with a gov't agency or politician. Governing bodies don't function to pre-approve the legitimacy of whether something is properly labeled. They issue guidelines and expect you to follow them. They react when there's a complaint or an allegation. Local chamber of commerce could have assisted. But good move by Kelly. Now I wonder who else is playing loose with country of origin?
If you go by 100%, then probably any manufacturer listing made in (insert country). By percentage of content, it will be tough to figure out.
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post #323 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
While we all...myself included...commend MK for posting, and indeed taking the high road; let's just not lose sight of the fact, that it didn't happen proactively.

My point being...if we're all better off (and I think we are); for the explanation, "apology", and coming change in labeling...it did take this thread, to bring it about. Some of you are still bashing Craig, the OP; especially in light of MKs magnanimous response. But do you think it would have happened, an other way?

No offense meant to Mr. Kelly; I'm sure he's a reasonable man. But I somehow doubt, if a single dealer had just asked; the same result would have been accomplished. Besides...people need to know, about what transpired previously; as well, as the correction and more transparency happening...moving forward.

In other words: don't kill the messenger.
Also a good question would be, did a single dealer ever ask? I suspect the answer is no.
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post #324 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 09:50 AM
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If you go by 100%, then probably any manufacturer listing made in (insert country). By percentage of content, it will be tough to figure out.
Well each country has their unique way of determining that but I'm just asking about the USA. Seems to me from available shipping manifests, and I only gave the free stuff, this was a slam dunk WRT Aerial. Only way to see how it applies to other brands is to examine them on a case by case basis.

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If China has good facilities and do good work on building and finishing speaker's enclosures; then we should be appreciative and show it: Speaker's enclosures made in China. Put that nice sticker in the back, on the speaker box itself.

My Rotel audio components proudly show Made in China on their rears. And Rotel is not a Chinese company; the thinking is balanced and designed in the UK.
Some people buy stuff for what they like, not where they come from. ...Others for what they represent; status/prestige wise...with that sophisticated Italian touch. ...Or British, or German, or American, or Danish, or Canadian, or Japanese, or Mexican.
In audio electronics and speakers; made in the USA looks like Bruce Springsteen, solid rock. Made in Canada looks like the Northern approach, art @ the service of performance/value ratio, with some serious scientific research behind, by some of the best in the world.

Cars are a totally different business; not comparable when it comes to design, performance, and engineering. ...And place of origin.

...A house, or a palace? ...Made by Donald Trump's group. ;-)

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post #326 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
Well each country has their unique way of determining that but I'm just asking about the USA. Seems to me from available shipping manifests, and I only gave the free stuff, this was a slam dunk WRT Aerial. Only way to see how it applies to other brands is to examine them on a case by case basis.
Except you would have to make assumptions with regards to design, mockups, testing, cost of imported parts and other variables. I don't see how you are going to come up with a percentage of cost for the imported parts and for the domestic parts. Like I said, it would be easy if using 100%, but becomes a problem if you start trying to use a percentage.
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post #327 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
While we all...myself included...commend MK for posting, and indeed taking the high road; let's just not lose sight of the fact, that it didn't happen proactively.

My point being...if we're all better off (and I think we are); for the explanation, "apology", and coming change in labeling...it did take this thread, to bring it about. Some of you are still bashing Craig, the OP; especially in light of MKs magnanimous response. But do you think it would have happened, an other way?

No offense meant to Mr. Kelly; I'm sure he's a reasonable man. But I somehow doubt, if a single dealer had just asked; the same result would have been accomplished. Besides...people need to know, about what transpired previously; as well, as the correction and more transparency happening...moving forward.

In other words: don't kill the messenger.
Craig is no hero as you imply. Anyone reading this thread can figure that out and clearly there is a lot more to this then a labeling issue. Still waiting on a response about why this wasn't an issue for him when the cabinets were sourced from Denmark. IMO this was an attempt to do great harm to a speaker company that based on my research makes a very good speaker and has a lot of very satisfied customers. He also never stated that he terminated his relationship with AA due to where the cabinets were sourced or the incorrect labeling. Has his website been updated yet? Having a few pairs left to sell is not a reason to claim your authorized when you are not.

I am not an owner and $10k speakers aren't in my plans for now, so I have no alliance to AA. Going forward I will keep up with AA given the positive things I've read regarding the company and those who have bought them.

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post #328 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Except you would have to make assumptions with regards to design, mockups, testing, cost of imported parts and other variables. I don't see how you are going to come up with a percentage of cost for the imported parts and for the domestic parts. Like I said, it would be easy if using 100%, but becomes a problem if you start trying to use a percentage.
I'll take a shot Mike. Toss out a couple of brands/models that say they're made in the USA.

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post #329 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RMK! View Post
***My M/O is to buy American product whenever possible and I don't mind paying more for the privilege. I'm not a strict isolationist but I see value in supporting American made/assembled goods. If we don't reinvigorate the middle class, our economy and the lifestyle of the majority of people in America will continue to deteriorate.
The problem with that mindset is that you're helping condemn your national industries to second-rate status on the global market, which means that the "middle class" can only exist by government fiat. (The global market supports high wages for high value added. Only government policies can support high wages for low value added.)

Just look at cars. While one can debate current models, there's no reasonable debate that Big Three cars from, say, 1980 until the Dubya economic crash of 2008-9 were inferior to Japanese and (non-Communist) European competition. (To me, the US auto industry is a black hole of suckitude from the end of Cord 810 production to the start of Tesla Model S production, but that is neither here nor there.) Yet in the US domestic market they still had large market share. Customers were actively purchasing inferior products, often out of a misguided "Buy American" mindset. This behavior, aggregated, removed incentive from the Big Three to design and make competitive automobiles.

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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
***I also think it is rather silly to spend $10k on a speaker.....the best quality speaker components on the planet just don't cost that much. Sounds like a $1500 speaker marked up to $10,000 for people with more money than sense. I think there are may high priced products for which the cost is justified...hand crafted custom finishes etc etc. But assembly line produced made in china cabinets.....what a scam.
That depends on your opinion of the value of human creativity. Certainly there is value in the design process, no? Not to mention supply and demand, which is what actually sets pricing in a free market.

Also, there's some racism in your post worth exploring. Why can't "hand crafted custom cabinets" be made in China? Look at Aerial's cabinetry as an example. They're quite nice. Why do you assume they come off an "assembly line?" (Though by the same token, Bentleys come off an assembly line too....)

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Last edited by DS-21; 08-01-2015 at 11:03 AM.
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post #330 of 406 Old 08-01-2015, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I'll take a shot Mike. Toss out a couple of brands/models that say they're made in the USA.
I am not sure that Jim Salk could legitimately claim Made in USA and he make his own cabinets.
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