Would you buy a 10K Chinese Made Speaker labelled Made in USA ?? - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 278Likes
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #391 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 09:36 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,499
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4416 Post(s)
Liked: 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerretHunter View Post
You could, and I would have no problem with it because you would be right.

I don't think I've ever said AA is right, or that the label is correct. I've only said I'd be surprised if it couldn't be legally defended. Deception is not uncommon in high end gear, this stretching of the truth is no surprise.
I wonder if all my electronics are made where i think they are. I assume all of it is made in China except my speakers....might have to take a look.
Mike Garrett likes this.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #392 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 09:40 AM
Senior Member
 
FerretHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ferret Free Zone
Posts: 488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Wait: he should have posted about "fraud"...by being "fraudulent" himself (posing as someone else)? Hmm...I'm afriad you just lost consideration with me.
I had consideration with you? Guess I was making some valid points.



I didn't say to pose as someone else, but as an end user. As a dealer of AA at apparently high volumes, it wouldn't be a stretch to say you have used the product. I would think that selling 10K speakers would require you to be familiar with the product with hands on experience, not a glossy brochure. I'm also assuming he would have a showroom.

Ridding the world of ferrets, one stinking critter at a time.

My Ferret-Free Setup
FerretHunter is offline  
post #393 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 09:47 AM
Senior Member
 
FerretHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ferret Free Zone
Posts: 488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borderdog View Post
We have worked really hard in this country to clean up our air and water, and to do this we had to implement laws and regulations; as did Japan and Europe. These laws and regs come at a high cost to manufacturers.
I had visions of the Deepwater Horizon reading this. The laws and regs might need some tweaking to prevent foreign ownership. Imagine that were some Chinese company instead of BP.

Ridding the world of ferrets, one stinking critter at a time.

My Ferret-Free Setup
FerretHunter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #394 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 09:57 AM - Thread Starter
VGI
Advanced Member
 
VGI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bradley Beach NJ & Boca Raton Florida
Posts: 909
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 418 Post(s)
Liked: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
And what...we continue, to bury Craig because he was a whistle-blower, with an axe to grind? Everyone is saying "oh...Craig was a dealer who got cut-off; and now he's seeking his pound of flesh". What if he was cut-off...because he was the whistle-blower (or threatened to; or asked AA/MK to do the "right" thing, long before now)?

I don't know; I'm not trying to bury AA/MK here. Truly I'm not. What I am doing, is trying to understand...how the purported "victim", is catching the lion's share of the sh*t here.
You may be right about everything. The only facts I recall is that AA sources stuff in China and labels products made in USA. I also know it will be changed to assembled/designed in USA along with an oversight. The OP provided some fact that he was a longtime dealer and sold the products and made good sales. He also knew about stuff by AA was made outside USA for a while.

So the question to me is why the separation between OP and AA?
The separation is completely irrelevant in this thread.. The thread was to bring the facts that aa speakers are being represented illegally which it's funny when you guys see this word you want to down play it or soften it. Its federal law he's broken and if you the buyer are okay with that than okay that's fantastic. He claims oversight and that's hysterical. Maybe walk into a bank and rob it and tell the police as they are arresting you that it was an oversight and see what happens. Cmon I own that's a bit extreme but in my eyes and to lots of people who bought them as well we think it's pretty crappy..


Do I have a beef? Of course I do. 100 percent have a beef because I hate liars and mk is a liar. When I find someone who lies and directly steals from his dealers I call him out and that's what this is all about..

AA never fired me. When they got caught selling direct to customers we as a company decided that was enough for us. Imagine the words exchanged between myself and them after you've supported this brand for so many years..

As most Avs threads go off track and off agenda I don't need this to head sideways. Don't circumvent what he did to his dealers and to his customers..

That's what you should be worried about.

Craig
VGI is offline  
post #395 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 09:57 AM
Senior Member
 
FerretHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ferret Free Zone
Posts: 488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner View Post
Well...this will probably be my last post on the subject; as I'm tired of trying to explain things to those, who obviously think in 2 dimensions.

I've seen so many comments like..."well, MK was wrong to mislabel; but the OP should have had a different title to his post"; or "MK made a nice post...so the OP obviously has an axe to grind, and all is forgiven".

Man: talk about not seeing the forest through the trees! Craig has eluded, there's more he could say...but hasn't; that's not taking the high road as well? Everyone keeps harping on this "everything changed" thing; maybe Craig can't elaborate, without slinging more mud...and has chosen not to?

One of the things, Craig has said...is that it's a customer's complaint, that brought it to his attention. And I believe (though I'm not 100% sure, and don't have the wherewithal to browse back through ALL the posts) he asserted the following:

- Customer called Craig, to ask about origin of the cabinets. Obviously the customer had an impetus; you don't just shoot the breeze, about such things. My guess is the customer heard/read something, and wanted to check into it.

- Craig told customer "as far as I know, the cabinets are made in Denmark..." (if Craig didn't know about the switch to China. So everyone can stop with this whole "oh...he was fine when they were made in Denmark; but not China. What a xenophobe"). Or maybe he just deflected, and said "you should call AA/MK and ask them/him"

- That AA/MK misrepresented to the customer, the fact that the cabinets were made in China; and now by his own admission...falsely labeled. In other words...lied to an inquiring customer (mind you...I'm repeating what I've read, as purported by others. I have no first-hand knowledge)

- Customer comes back to Craig and says "WTF; I want my money back!"

- Craig calls AA/MK, and says "hey...what are we going to do about this? I don't want my reputation tarnished...and I'm not sure I want to keep selling this stock. Will you make reprimands to this customer...and will you buy-back, remaining stock?"

- AA/MK tells Craig to shove it! LOL

TO BE CLEAR: all I'm doing, is suggesting a possible scenario; NOT AN ACTUAL ONE. Though I will say...some of what I've purported, has been stated as to have actually happened; and I don't think I've taken great liberties, with the rest. In other words...it's very likely, connecting some bread crumbs; this is kinda, how things went down.

So then...maybe Craig says "I'll see your a$$ in court. I don't want to work with a guy/company like yours"; and AA/MK reply in kind, by saying "you're dropped". My point is...everyone (most) is assuming Craig is the bad guy here; and why...because AA/MK committed "fraud", but then...when pressured to respond on this forum...politely apologized??

In my book...I'd award more points, for changing the policy before this post! On Facebook, on AVS; "hi...I'm Michael Kelly, owner of AA. It has come to my attention..." and blah, blah, blah. He knew; customer(s) and Craig, at the very least...expressed anger and concern. He could have said/done something then.

No offense; I don't know the man, and yes...I'm friendly with Craig. But that aside...we're pardoning a company, who commits this "fraud" (and no matter who's "side" you've been on here; it seems EVERYONE agrees, what we're talking about...is "fraud"). And by all accounts, knew about it...and continued to perpetrate it; until he's forced to comment. And when he does, he goes "sorry...we'll change it". And everyone just goes "wow; what a stand-up guy"? LOL

And what...we continue, to bury Craig because he was a whistle-blower, with an axe to grind? Everyone is saying "oh...Craig was a dealer who got cut-off; and now he's seeking his pound of flesh". What if he was cut-off...because he was the whistle-blower (or threatened to; or asked AA/MK to do the "right" thing, long before now)?

I don't know; I'm not trying to bury AA/MK here. Truly I'm not. What I am doing, is trying to understand...how the purported "victim", is catching the lion's share of the sh*t here.
Don't tire yourself out trying to explain to us dimwits. Take a break. Eat a KitKat or Snickers. You get grumpy when your hungry.

If IGV is taking the high road, ... what would the other road look like ... Fury Road?

To be clear, I was surprised AA came on here to comment. He didn't have to. That doesn't make it ok, and I suggested that a goodwill gesture would be to offer some kind of "relief" to customers who are really upset by this mislabel. If this label is the crux of the matter between AA and VIG, then that goodwill would include a resolution to their dispute.

Ridding the world of ferrets, one stinking critter at a time.

My Ferret-Free Setup
FerretHunter is offline  
post #396 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 10:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mr.SoftDome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 1,579
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 686 Post(s)
Liked: 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post
The separation is completely irrelevant in this thread.. The thread was to bring the facts that aa speakers are being represented illegally which it's funny when you guys see this word you want to down play it or soften it. Its federal law he's broken and if you the buyer are okay with that than okay that's fantastic. He claims oversight and that's hysterical. Maybe walk into a bank and rob it and tell the police as they are arresting you that it was an oversight and see what happens. Cmon I own that's a bit extreme but in my eyes and to lots of people who bought them as well we think it's pretty crappy..


Do I have a beef? Of course I do. 100 percent have a beef because I hate liars and mk is a liar. When I find someone who lies and directly steals from his dealers I call him out and that's what this is all about..

AA never fired me. When they got caught selling direct to customers we as a company decided that was enough for us. Imagine the words exchanged between myself and them after you've supported this brand for so many years..

As most Avs threads go off track and off agenda I don't need this to head sideways. Don't circumvent what he did to his dealers and to his customers..

That's what you should be worried about.

Craig
I wouldn't buy a spool of speaker wire from you. Grow some professional balls and don't vent on a forum. What you just posted even adds more fuel to the fire.

If you and AA decided to end your relationship then end behind doors and move on. Try a new vendor. I have seen many a line come and go thru my dealer. He doesn't come on to AVS and vent about relationships that might be best served behind the scenes.

And made in USA vs assembled in USA. Give me a break. I bet if he confirmed with counsel he could have left it as is. My line of work gives me this preliminary feeling.

Rick
Mr.SoftDome is offline  
post #397 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 10:34 AM
Senior Member
 
FerretHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ferret Free Zone
Posts: 488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.SoftDome View Post
I wouldn't buy a spool of speaker wire from you. Grow some professional balls and don't vent on a forum. What you just posted even adds more fuel to the fire.

If you and AA decided to end your relationship then end behind doors and move on. Try a new vendor. I have seen many a line come and go thru my dealer. He doesn't come on to AVS and vent about relationships that might be best served behind the scenes.

And made in USA vs assembled in USA. Give me a break. I bet if he confirmed with counsel he could have left it as is. My line of work gives me this preliminary feeling.

Rick
Well said Rick!

If binding contracts were broken regarding selling direct and stealing of customers, then as I've said many times, ... that's what the courts are for. If all of this was based on a handshake strong as oak, ... go watch Jerry Maguire.

Ridding the world of ferrets, one stinking critter at a time.

My Ferret-Free Setup

Last edited by FerretHunter; 08-02-2015 at 10:38 AM.
FerretHunter is offline  
post #398 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 10:41 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11700
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
In the first case we're considering the UK. They say,


So, seems to me they're playing by the rules.

With Salk, the cabinet is made here in a finish according to the customer's wishes and with the crossover which is also made here plus any other sundry parts likely costs more than the drivers. Keep in mind, Salk doesn't pay list price for the drivers. I'd hazard to say he's playing by the rules. The bonus with Salk is you don't have to wait two years to get your speaker, it doesn't come with a screwed up veneer job, actually has the parts it's supposed to have, and you don't get jerked around by a wannabe speaker builder that's poorly capitalized.
That was not the claim I asked about. Poster said they were 100% made in the UK. I doubt any speaker in this day and age is 100% from one country. Nothing against the speaker brand, I could really care less. I was just addressing the claim.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #399 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:01 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11700
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post
I don't discount the OP has a hard-on. But I'll tell ya, even if he hadn't brought up the whole Lumber Liquidator thing, if the Aerial logo had long since been removed, if his former business relationship was never disclosed, there was no good way to bring up the Made in USA thing for a dealer. Now me, I hate everyone.
You can't come up with another way. Heck, have a trusted friend start a thread on the forum. Make the thread in general, but list companies that you have questions about, then list AA as one of those companies. We end up with the same discussion, but on a broader level. There are ways of changing things, without trying to drag someone through the mud and ruin a business. Do we really want to help someone put a company out of business? A company that appears to have nothing but satisfied customers that praise the product in appearance, construction and sound quality?

Besides if this was such a big secret, why when it was posted in the AA thread in 2010, nobody commented on it? They did not comment, because it was fairly common knowledge. Several owners have already said they were told all about the cabinets and other parts, before purchasing. Other owners said that they went to audio shows and were told, by Mike Kelly, all about the speakers, including where the cabinets were made and how they were made. A reviewer of the speakers has come here and reported that he was told all about the construction of the speaker, including the made in China cabinet. Like I said, this was not new news. It is new to those not familiar with AA, but most people buying 10k speakers do a little homework and ask a few questions.
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #400 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:04 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 8,499
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4416 Post(s)
Liked: 2596
http://windhaming.com/american-made-audio-list/

dont know how accurate this list is but we know one company that shows its not

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
torii is offline  
post #401 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:10 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 28,593
Mentioned: 289 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14039 Post(s)
Liked: 11700
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDLehner;

Man: talk about not seeing the forest through the trees! Craig has eluded, there's more he [I
could[/I] say...but hasn't; that's not taking the high road as well?
:
You must have missed his post number 335, where he said: "I have lots more to share as this is just the beginning for me. The back door sales direct to customers circumventing his Dealer base along with the shady labelling practices are just the beginning.."
Mike Garrett is online now  
post #402 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Sean Spamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 1,352
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 448 Post(s)
Liked: 556
I think it's interesting to note that some manufacturers will actually make a distinction between whether their products are designed in their home country or designed AND manufactured in their home country.

Unless things have changed, It looks like Paradigm does so, labeling their Monitor series (built in China) "Designed in North America" - but their higher end series of Reference / Signature speakers (built in Canada) as "Manufactured in North America".
http://www.soundstagehifi.com/index....-paradigm-made

Leaving aside the OP's questionable motivation for starting this thread, perhaps an approach similar to Paradigms would avoid confusion and misconceptions.
Sean Spamilton is offline  
post #403 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:28 AM
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 16,231
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4588 Post(s)
Liked: 4802
Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Nice dodge. Even though I realize racism is an excuse for nearly everything on the left, it has nothing to do with this. It is an opinion that the product is probably overpriced for its level of performance since the most expensive part of the speaker is made in a country with production costs that are a fraction of those in Denmark and the U.S. If the move to China were accompanied by significantly reduced selling price none of this would be an issue.

If you believe Mr. Kelly's comment that the move to China wasn't motivated by lower costs, then I would say you are naive.
Gee and they say all dbxers are liberals...go figure. Fraction...what size fraction? 1/10 is a fraction as is 9/10. While the costs are likely lower, he did say his cabinet shop in Denmark folded up. Let's see if we can't find if that's a true statement first? What shops in the US were an alternative?

Why would anyone with reduced costs and increased quality necessarily reduce the price when the price is well inflated to begin with? Talk about naive.
lovinthehd is offline  
post #404 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 11:37 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 30,543
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1508 Post(s)
Liked: 1480
Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
http://windhaming.com/american-made-audio-list/

dont know how accurate this list is but we know one company that shows its not
I don't know how accurate it was but it contains many examples that demonstrate it it is outdated now.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is online now  
post #405 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 12:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
CDLehner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Dark Side of the Moon-Right Side of the Bay, MD
Posts: 11,076
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1211 Post(s)
Liked: 3342
^^ Look...there can be a BIG difference, between walking up to MK at a trade show and saying:

"Hey Michael; good to meet you. Love your speakers. The cabinets are great; where are they made"?

And an irate customer, calling and saying "I hear the cabinets are made in China; but the sticker says made in the USA. Which is it"?

Look...this thread has run its course, and served its purpose AFAIC. If these practices don't bother you; they don't bother you. If they do...they do. But either way...aren't you glad you know, and can make your own mind up?

All The Music In The World > PS Audio Stellar Gain DAC > Dynaudio X14As
CDLehner is offline  
post #406 of 406 Old 08-02-2015, 12:06 PM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 21,303
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1859 Post(s)
Liked: 3681
^^^

yes I agree the thread has run its course: and I have some issues with it but we will leave it at that

thank you

please take the high road in every post:do not respond to or quote a problematic post: report it
HDMI.org:what a mess HDCP = Hollywood's Draconian Copy Protection system
LG C9 OLED owner


markrubin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Closed Thread Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off