who is using Towers or full range for the surrounds? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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who is using Towers or full range for the surrounds?

im interested in knowing if there is anyone else out there using full range speakers for surround and how you got there.

i demoed a system that used full range towers for the surrounds and it sounded amazing so for grins i decided to try my front towers as surrounds, removing the bookshelf speakers that were there. I did an ABAB comparison.i even turned off the amp that powers the fronts so i could only hear the surround information. I was hoping there wouldnt be a difference , that the little amount going on in the surrounds wouldnt warrant a full range speaker, that being at ear level would sound ODD etc. because if i liked it that would mean more expenditure buyng two more tower speakers.

well, i liked it so much that i now have two tower speakers for the surrounds. in my opinion, the difference is not even close. not even.

running surrounds as full range is a more immersive experience ime. if something with mid low bass comes from the surround, the bass comes with it, leading to a more cohesive sound. in one scene with a fire, the bass was coming from all 5 towers,and good God it was immersive.

secondly, some movies have a lot of surround information. for example at the end of transformers age of exctintion,2:31 into the movie, the song playing is fully duplicated out of the rear channels as well.
running the cheaper smaller cheaper speakers was not doing my overall sound quality any favors. this may not be a problem with speakers as good as the fronts.

additionally, bringing in the speakers down to ear level is more real for lack of a better term. before with the speakers up high as recommended, it was easy to localize the sound and be drawn away from the movie by it. with all speakers the same level there is a much more real sound field imo. in a scene with a fire, now you're in the middle of the fire instead of it feeling like its somehow above.i thought scenes with flyovers or rain would be destroyed. not so. they sound better

i would like to hear from other tower surround guys out there.
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post #2 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 10:26 AM
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I do, its scary sometimes with movies and I jump out of my seat.

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post #3 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 10:31 AM
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Me too. Repurposed a set of towers to the side when I moved to a condo with one open side to the viewing area. It was a good mechanical solution, rather that a bookshelf stand, and I really like having the full range side speakers. For some sources, there's a lot of info there.

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post #4 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 10:32 AM
 
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Ive never tried it, but I prefer the diffused dipole sound. My surrounds have a switch so I can run them in dipole or direct mode and I find direct to distracting. It reminds me that there are speakers back there. In dipole mode they disappear and the sounds feel further away and enveloping.
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post #5 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I do, its scary sometimes with movies and I jump out of my seat.
awesome . im not alone. do you have them at the same height as the fronts , or high up?

imo, the improvement is almost as large as when i switched the center to a full range tower. having five towers for movies is a beautiful thing

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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
Me too. Repurposed a set of towers to the side when I moved to a condo with one open side to the viewing area. It was a good mechanical solution, rather that a bookshelf stand, and I really like having the full range side speakers. For some sources, there's a lot of info there.
agree. do you run them as large or still have some of the bass go to the sub. my speakers go down to 32hz and have a little better transient response than the subs so i prefer to run mine as large and let the subs just do the lfe.
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post #6 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
Ive never tried it, but I prefer the diffused dipole sound. My surrounds have a switch so I can run them in dipole or direct mode and I find direct to distracting. It reminds me that there are speakers back there. In dipole mode they disappear and the sounds feel further away and enveloping.

i hated the direct sound of the small surrounds up high too. the tower speakers are definitely not as "localizable". maybe it interacts with the furniture a little bit more to become more diffuse.
also, how far away from the main listening position are your surrounds if you dont mind.
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post #7 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:20 AM
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I run my towers as full-size and send bass to all speakers, plus an 18" sub. The speakers I'm using were the mains in a behind the screen dedicated home theater. I had an identical speaker as the center, and it was upright also. In my downsized condo, the former center speaker is still the center speaker, but on it's side to allow the TV to rest on top and a larger, but narrower pair of towers are the new mains. I tried the larger, narrower towers as the sides in the beginning, but they just overpowered the room and the speaker front was too close to the seating position.

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post #8 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
Ive never tried it, but I prefer the diffused dipole sound. My surrounds have a switch so I can run them in dipole or direct mode and I find direct to distracting. It reminds me that there are speakers back there. In dipole mode they disappear and the sounds feel further away and enveloping.

i hated the direct sound of the small surrounds up high too. the tower speakers are definitely not as "localizable". maybe it interacts with the furniture a little bit more to become more diffuse.
also, how far away from the main listening position are your surrounds if you dont mind.
My surrounds are about 9 ft away from me. Above me ears.
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post #9 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:56 AM
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My former front pair, the Klipsch F-3's went to rear surround duty after building a pair of Fusion 15's.
In stereo comparison testing , the fusions are far superior
I just couldn't kick a 1K set to the curb.
as rears about 5-6 feet behind and inline with the fronts and the 4 top atmos set-up, so that's about a 7 foot wide spread.
I set the xo to 80 even tho XT32 set them at 40 and the tweeters are just slightly higher than my ears at the mlp. that helps with the blending for the 7 channel layer
I think the XT32 did a good job integrating what are considered rather beasty mains.
As surrounds I was using some Klipsch RC3's normally a center speaker, set on the walls in a 14.5 wide room, at 90 to the mlp and about 62" high wrt centerline and overshot at the mlp for "energy exchange' and avoidance of hotspotting.

currently testing a set of Volt 6's as surrounds at the same spot and angles.
and not being towers, there is the space consideration for nominal habitation

as an aside note: windows 10 after about a week has decided that I can no longer drag photos to post at this site, even pics I was able to post as just like last Monday, Tuesday.
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post #10 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drunkpenguin View Post
My surrounds are about 9 ft away from me. Above me ears.
mine were about 9.5 feet away and high too. bringing it in to 7ft and down has really made it more immersive even if it goes against all conventional wisdom
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post #11 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ted99 View Post
I run my towers as full-size and send bass to all speakers, plus an 18" sub. The speakers I'm using were the mains in a behind the screen dedicated home theater. I had an identical speaker as the center, and it was upright also. In my downsized condo, the former center speaker is still the center speaker, but on it's side to allow the TV to rest on top and a larger, but narrower pair of towers are the new mains. I tried the larger, narrower towers as the sides in the beginning, but they just overpowered the room and the speaker front was too close to the seating position.
hey,thanks for sharing. sounds like youve got some bass action going there. i much prefer the speakers set as large

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the tweeters are just slightly higher than my ears at the mlp. that helps with the blending for the 7 channel layer



TY
thanks for that info man.

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post #12 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 12:24 PM
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Going with the Atmos specs, I decided to do away with my bipoles and went with full range, direct firing speakers at ear level for my surrounds and rears. My gosh, what a difference. Where I sit, they are barely localizable, but the increase in clarity and impact makes it feel like the sound is boring into my head from all directions. I love it! It's like when I went from having a horizontal centre channel placed well below my screen to having a dual concentric speaker behind my screen with the tweeter at ear height (massive difference). Now all the tweeters are at ear height and it's amazing.
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post #13 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 02:46 PM
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I run full range towers in all of my bed layer positions, Fronts, surrounds and rears, all at ear height, plus because of the effect of my powered woofers on my front three I added small subs to act as powered woofers for all of the positions as well.
While the new rule is, "it's not needed" & "let the subs do the work" I'm still in the old school camp of as much as possible in all positions and let the subs handle the LFE channel. The way I see it is if the mixers put full range sounds in those channels, then do your best to play those sound in those positions, then let the subs handle what they've mixed into the LFE channel.
I'll NEVER go back to anything less.
Look at all the low end sounds in Interstellar, those low's weren't only in the LFE channel. And I get it, the lower frequencies aren't as directional and as easily pin pointed, but to me, letting the Subs do "all"the lows is more of a work around for the majority of people who just can't logistically do what I'm able too, in their rooms, and yes doing it that way does work well, but not as good as going full tilt, there's just no way.

Here a list of my Lower Layer,
All vintage DefTech:
Fronts - BP-2000's
Center - C/L/R 3000
Front Surrounds (pseudo Wides) - BP-10's
Mid Surrounds - BP-20's
Surround Powered Woofers (2) - Supercube II
Rears - BP-10's
Rear Powered Woofers (2) - Supercube II
And a diagram of the setup:



Plus I'm running some fairly full speakers in my height layer also, DefTech Studio Monitor 450's (x8)



Above every one of my bed speakers, again "If You Can, why Not.....", nothing wrong with making Overkill the Norm.....

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

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post #14 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Altloff,that's one heck of a serious setup!

@blastermaster ,it sounds like you had the exact same revelation I had!
I love it
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post #15 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
as an aside note: windows 10 after about a week has decided that I can no longer drag photos to post at this site, even pics I was able to post as just like last Monday, Tuesday.
I tested posting yesterday on a windows 7 puter , so I know it's not some weird thing with my AVS account.

If you have an idea or know somebody that might have a clue, please PM me.
Same for me. Just sign up with Photobucket or something and link the picture URL. I dug up my old Photobucket account and found pictures from years ago lol.
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post #16 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 08:26 PM
 
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I've been doing it for years. I've tried to tell others about how immersive it is but most never listen. They would rather have inferior design for surrounds or go with whatever is the latest fad like atmos.
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post #17 of 110 Old 08-08-2015, 11:32 PM
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I have towers front left and right. Towers surround left and right. Book shelf rear. Towers are easier to place for me and they sound great. I wouldn't want to do less. Placement is an issue for the rears so I am using book shelf. Someday I will upgrade the book shelf rear. A second sub comes first.

Spoiler!

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post #18 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been doing it for years. I've tried to tell others about how immersive it is but most never listen. They would rather have inferior design for surrounds or go with whatever is the latest fad like atmos.
i will admit im guilty of the first charge. i used to tell people spend no more than 50 bucks on your surrounds so you can spend more on the fronts. im ashamed.

a compromised rear setup can more easily drag a person out of the movie than any other speakers in the system imo. the front mains are the easiest lol.

as for the second charge- not guilty.im 5.1 since 99% of movie theaters are 5.1
if the majority of movie theaters change to something else i will follow right along since im trying to emulate that sound in my room. i do understand where dolby is coming from with atmos though and when they comes out with subterranean, ill understand that too.
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post #19 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 05:56 AM
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I also run Towers as my surround speakers in a 5.1 setup, I just wish I had space to use another for my centre speaker. Most experts around here recommend a crossover to the subwoofers set at 80Hz because most decent bookshelf speakers tend to roll off around there (at best) and the idea is that sounds below 80Hz are not directional, your brain can't localise where they came from.

But I've found that in my HT I can sometimes localise sounds down to 60Hz or lower (not tested rigorously, I could just be imagining it), so having surround speakers that can go to 60Hz (with a bit of EQ) really helps with the immersion in some movies. If a gunshot comes from behind but the bass hit comes (noticeably) from the subwoofers it totally destroys the realism.

I also found it important to a particular few songs when I had a 2.1 setup. There was some stereo echo (or some stereo effect) used with sounds around 70-100Hz. Because there was only 1 sub channel the stereo effects wouldn't work without big tower speakers.
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post #20 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ormy View Post
I also run Towers as my surround speakers in a 5.1 setup, I just wish I had space to use another for my centre speaker. Most experts around here recommend a crossover to the subwoofers set at 80Hz because most decent bookshelf speakers tend to roll off around there (at best) and the idea is that sounds below 80Hz are not directional, your brain can't localise where they came from.

But I've found that in my HT I can sometimes localise sounds down to 60Hz or lower (not tested rigorously, I could just be imagining it), so having surround speakers that can go to 60Hz (with a bit of EQ) really helps with the immersion in some movies. If a gunshot comes from behind but the bass hit comes (noticeably) from the subwoofers it totally destroys the realism.

I also found it important to a particular few songs when I had a 2.1 setup. There was some stereo echo (or some stereo effect) used with sounds around 70-100Hz. Because there was only 1 sub channel the stereo effects wouldn't work without big tower speakers.
I couldnt agree with you MORE. the sub at 80hz is not as cohesive as we would like to believe. And, its easily very localizable. even at 60 as you said. here is a graph of my preamp's bass management. this is an 80 hz crossover. you can see that the 100hz sound is only about 5dbs down from the 80hz level and 10 dbs down from the overall level at 30hz. so, its definitely still making sound at a range that allows one to hear exactly where the sub is. this is THE main reason i use two subs even though i only send the lfe channel to the subs.(using two subs has other advantages as well).

as per the center speaker, i dont know what you have but going to a full range center speaker that goes down to 32 hz was the best thing i ever did for my surround setup.
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post #21 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 07:30 AM
 
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Atmos/DTS:X isn't a fad. Pro Tools doesn't put fads into their software. They are the de facto standard in the mixing industry and object oriented sound is easier to process for sound engineers. Time is money, so this isn't going anywhere. I have run JBL 4722's as surrounds which is about as big as a tower as it gets, so I agree that towers trump smaller surrounds in a 5.x or a 7.x setup. However, with Atmos/DTS:X, I want more speakers instead of a two. It may be awhile before speakers are being hung across ceilings in people's houses, but the industry has made a move to a new format with a new sound engineering workflow/process that is more efficient. Every major electronics vendor has shown their support and has included Atmos/DTS:X in all of the mid tier and up receivers. This isn't like SACD where consumers drove acceptance. This is a top down move with little regard for consumer acceptance. Just look at the theater list of Atmos movies vs home release. Thankfully, now that AVR manufactures are online, we should see a lot more home releases. Object oriented sound is here to stay.
As Ive stated before, I've heard a Dolby Atmos demo this year. It was not even in the same league as my seven channel Klipsch CF-4 setup. Too each his own. I've owned enough multichannel setups to know the front plus surrounds idealogy is outdated. Multichannel music is in a whole different league with a capable matching setup.If you want Dolby Atmos than do what you like. We come from different experiences and no one here has had as many matching tower setups as I've had so most will never experience what I'm talking about.

I don't believe in sacrificing fidelity for lesser designs used for a specific placement. A cheaper design with less fidelity than the front lcr will only hurt multichannel music performance and ceiling speakers did nothing for me during the Dolby Atmos demo with movies.

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post #22 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
As Ive stated before, I've heard a Dolby Atmos demo this year. It was not even in the same league as my seven channel Klipsch CF-4 setup. Too each his own. I've owned enough multichannel setups to know the front plus surrounds idealogy is outdated. Muktichannel music is in a whole different league with a capable matching setup.If you want Dolby Atmos than do what you like. We come from different experiences and no one here has had as many matching tower setups as I've had so most will never experience what I'm talking about.
Yawn - Another post about your superior setup and your golden ears. Everyone else is uneducated, not capable of grasping fine audio, and we all have inferior setups. I have been involved in home theater since Pro-Logic appeared in the late 80s. I will go out on a limb and guess you were born post MTV and were probably a toddler when Pro Logic came out, so please don't lecture on your vast superiority and experience. I have (5) JBL 4722 and dual DSS 24" Mariana in my theater, so I know exactly what full range surrounds can do. I have always used towers as surrounds. And yes, I am opting out of the large surrounds to go Atmos with smaller speakers. You want to say Atmos is a fad yet you tout multi-channel music. As much as I enjoy SACD and DVD-A, those were fads. Once in awhile a decent blu-ray concert will come out but they are far and few between. If mulit-channel music is your thing, then I agree. Most people it isnt.

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post #23 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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much respect guys, but please for posterity lets not derail the thread with atmos talk

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my seven channel Klipsch CF-4 setup.
wait? wha? what i wouldnt give to hear that setup!!! i heard 6 klipsch rf7s ($1600 each) in surround in a home and it sounded really good but im sure this would take the cake. with 2 12" woofers per speaker in a 108lb enclosure i bet the sound is "EPIC". i was actually looking for those when i collected my klipsch forte setup but you cant find them anywhere.

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post #24 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 08:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Yawn - Another post about your superior setup and your golden ears. Everyone else is uneducated, not capable of grasping fine audio, and we all have inferior setups. I have been involved in home theater since Pro-Logic appeared in the late 80s. I will go out on a limb and guess you were born post MTV and were probably a toddler when Pro Logic came out, so please don't lecture on your vast superiority and experience. I have (5) JBL 4722 and dual DSS 24" Mariana in my theater, so I know exactly what full range surrounds can do. I have always used towers as surrounds. And yes, I am opting out of the large surrounds to go Atmos with smaller speakers. You want to say Atmos is a fad yet you tout multi-channel music. As much as I enjoy SACD and DVD-A, those were fads. Once in awhile a decent blu-ray concert will come out but they are far and few between. If mulit-channel music is your thing, then I agree. Most people it isnt.
Listen here my friend. You quoted my original post. Notice I did not quote your posts with any negative info when you stated you were changing your setup to fit Atmos here or in my JBL thread. So if you don't want to hear my opinion on the subject, don't quote me. That should be very simple for you.
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post #25 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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much respect guys, but please for posterity lets not derail the thread with atmos talk

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Originally Posted by Swolephile View Post
my seven channel Klipsch CF-4 setup.
wait? wha? what i wouldnt give to hear that setup!!! i heard 6 klipsch rf7s ($1600 each) in surround in a home and it sounded really good but im sure this would take the cake. with 2 12" woofers per speaker in a 108lb enclosure i bet the sound is "EPIC". i was actually looking for those when i collected my klipsch forte setup but you cant find them anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
I have (5) JBL 4722 and dual DSS 24" Mariana in my theater, so I know exactly what full range surrounds can do.
i bet that sounds amazing. seeing what home theater guys were doing with jbl pro cinema speakers in their home was what made me change my setup to *full range * horn based * high sensitivity. i havent been happier with my sound.
are you quite sure you cant fit some 4722 in your atmos channels?
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post #26 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 08:34 AM
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On a limited budget, it it always best to put you money into the front 3 and the subwoofer. Having full range surrounds might be ideal, but:
1. Expense, not everyone has the budget to get 5 or 7 full range speakers.
2. Content...since much less content is sent to the surrounds, according to Dolby the average modern day sound track averages around 5% to the surrounds, much less need to have full range surrounds.
3 Space limitations.
now, for multichannel music, you can throw out #2 above and sure, 5 full range, matching speakers would be best. But point 1 and 3 don't go away.

So I would argue that it is still good advice to spend less on your surrounds, unless you have a Donald Trump budget!
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post #27 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 09:25 AM
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As Ive stated before, I've heard a Dolby Atmos demo this year. It was not even in the same league as my seven channel Klipsch CF-4 setup. Too each his own. I've owned enough multichannel setups to know the front plus surrounds idealogy is outdated. Multichannel music is in a whole different league with a capable matching setup.If you want Dolby Atmos than do what you like. We come from different experiences and no one here has had as many matching tower setups as I've had so most will never experience what I'm talking about.

I don't believe in sacrificing fidelity for lesser designs used for a specific placement. A cheaper design with less fidelity than the front lcr will only hurt multichannel music performance and ceiling speakers did nothing for me during the Dolby Atmos demo with movies.
But the demo you listened to probably didn't have speakers that were in the same league as your own. I wonder if you were to have good full range Klipsch ceiling speakers to match with your surround setup (nice speakers, btw) maybe you'd find Atmos more palatable/engaging?

As for me, I never would have changed my setup if it weren't for Atmos so kudos to the new technology. I haven't gotten a new receiver yet, but I've gone from a pair of bipoles and crappy fartbox rear surrounds, to full range side and rears at ear height. I'm super happy with the way it sounds now even if I didn't plan on getting an Atmos receiver. I think having Atmos/DTS:X is going to make my setup sing and the 3D sound is only going to get better as mixers figure out what they can do with it. Compare Dolby surround from when it began to now - the difference is gargantuan.
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post #28 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
I couldnt agree with you MORE. the sub at 80hz is not as cohesive as we would like to believe. And, its easily very localizable. even at 60 as you said. here is a graph of my preamp's bass management. this is an 80 hz crossover. you can see that the 100hz sound is only about 5dbs down from the 80hz level and 10 dbs down from the overall level at 30hz. so, its definitely still making sound at a range that allows one to hear exactly where the sub is. this is THE main reason i use two subs even though i only send the lfe channel to the subs.(using two subs has other advantages as well).

as per the center speaker, i dont know what you have but going to a full range center speaker that goes down to 32 hz was the best thing i ever did for my surround setup.

I think this is an interesting topic, and I'm glad you raised the question. I don't have a full range center, but I do have 6 full range speakers (and two matching subs) with XT-32. For music, no contest! I love the sound of my 6 full range speakers, so I eliminate the center and the subs. I actually enjoy a phantom center. My center works very well, however, for movies and TV. One of the things that I still experiment with is how much to use my subs, and I would enjoy hearing other perspectives on this.

With many movies and almost all TV, I continue to run the 6 full range speakers as Large, with a crossover of 100 for the center. It does 60Hz, but I like the sound better with a higher crossover. I then generally add the subs back in, but use them differently depending on content. If a movie has a lot of special effects, or if I want to get up to about -15, or louder, I will usually set all of my speakers as Small with crossovers about double their nominal F3 point--so 40, 60, and 80Hz. I'm probably being a little conservative there. I think it would be very interesting to hear other viewpoints on the crossovers, as the conventional advice to always set speakers to Small can get a little tiresome.

As with several of the other posters, I think there is a real advantage to having similar full range speakers all around, and I went to some trouble to get all the tweeters very close to the same height. I am glad that there are some others who are enjoying movies in a similar way.

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

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post #29 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
On a limited budget, it it always best to put you money into the front 3 and the subwoofer. Having full range surrounds might be ideal, but:
1. Expense, not everyone has the budget to get 5 or 7 full range speakers.
2. Content...since much less content is sent to the surrounds, according to Dolby the average modern day sound track averages around 5% to the surrounds, much less need to have full range surrounds.
3 Space limitations.
now, for multichannel music, you can throw out #2 above and sure, 5 full range, matching speakers would be best. But point 1 and 3 don't go away.

So I would argue that it is still good advice to spend less on your surrounds, unless you have a Donald Trump budget!
to be honest with you, if am am to give the advice again on a limited budget i would advice to :
go full range 3.0 or 3.2 depending on budget,
make sure the center channel is the best speaker(we are more discriminating of quality in mono vs stereo),
and get full range rears later.

i had pretty decent bookshelfs for the rears but the sound was so distracting that i took them out and went 3.0 then after a while i added them back in to see if i was missing anything and had to turn them down -4 db relative to the other speakers just to not have them constantly drawing me out of the movie. in retrospect, a lot of this was due to them being at a much higher plane than the fronts, but if i had to go back to bookshelves and sending the bass to the sub, i would rather just not have them there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
My wife is pretty understanding but I think 4722s hanging from the ceiling with ratchet straps might be a bit much for her
this one's easy. bribe her with a new house

Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think this is an interesting topic, and I'm glad you raised the question. I don't have a full range center, but I do have 6 full range speakers (and two matching subs) with XT-32. For music, no contest! I love the sound of my 6 full range speakers, so I eliminate the center and the subs. I actually enjoy a phantom center. My center works very well, however, for movies and TV. One of the things that I still experiment with is how much to use my subs, and I would enjoy hearing other perspectives on this.

With many movies and almost all TV, I continue to run the 6 full range speakers as Large, with a crossover of 100 for the center. It does 60Hz, but I like the sound better with a higher crossover. I then generally add the subs back in, but use them differently depending on content. If a movie has a lot of special effects, or if I want to get up to about -15, or louder, I will usually set all of my speakers as Small with crossovers about double their nominal F3 point--so 40, 60, and 80Hz. I'm probably being a little conservative there. I think it would be very interesting to hear other viewpoints on the crossovers, as the conventional advice to always set speakers to Small can get a little tiresome.

As with several of the other posters, I think there is a real advantage to having similar full range speakers all around, and I went to some trouble to get all the tweeters very close to the same height. I am glad that there are some others who are enjoying movies in a similar way.

Regards,
Mike
i like to have my speakers set as full range and have the subs only do LFE. to me, it gives the most coherent sound. i also do it this way because its how theaters do it and thats the sound im going for. finally, i like to run the lfe channel just a little bit hot but if one is also sending main channel information to it, it can muddy the sound with the sub turned up like that

as an illustration to the last point,say i have the sub 5 dbs hot relative to the mains and the mains crossed over at 80hz, then many male voices will be 4 dbs hot in the low end, be coming out of the subwoofer, and be a little bit muddy.

now, i dont have a problem doing this as my mains have a better lfe extension that most cinema mains so i dont lose any information that im supposed to hear, and i only do home theater, not music.
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post #30 of 110 Old 08-09-2015, 10:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blastermaster View Post
As for me, I never would have changed my setup if it weren't for Atmos so kudos to the new technology. I haven't gotten a new receiver yet, but I've gone from a pair of bipoles and crappy fartbox rear surrounds, to full range side and rears at ear height. I'm super happy with the way it sounds now even if I didn't plan on getting an Atmos receiver. I think having Atmos/DTS:X is going to make my setup sing and the 3D sound is only going to get better as mixers figure out what they can do with it. Compare Dolby surround from when it began to now - the difference is gargantuan.

even regular dolby 5.1 has the surrounds at ear height.i never knew this until today. i dont even know where i got that the rears should be higher than the fronts.

i have a theory that our ears may be very discerning of height changes. i went to a theater where the speakers seemed to be coming from above the screen. at first it was very strange, but all the other speakers were at a similar height and it became normal after a while. i can only think if the main speakers were above the screen and the surrounds were at ear height or vice versa, it would be a very distracting change when information comes from the surrounds.
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