GoldenEar Ultimate Invisa Lifestyle Atmos System Experience - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 11:48 AM
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Google Home Theater Geeks episode 248 (could have been 238) with Sandy Gross. The last 10+ minutes or so was regarding surround sound and Dolby Atmos with Sandy's comments regarding toe in and angled drivers as well as
a Dolby engineers impression.

Great hour of video for sure!

I don't have Atmos installed but if you are in or near Delaware I can demo you GE Triton1, XXL center and Invisa MPX surrounds.
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post #32 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
As a reviewer, I'm simply not in a position to cut holes and run wires in order to try out a concept speaker system for two weeks. However, is it fair? Yes, absolutely it is. Installations will vary in terms of ceiling height, room size, and whether or not back boxes are used. Based on my experience, such a system will cover a wide variety of installation scenarios. According to Sandy Gross, if anything the speakers should perform even better without back boxes, since they were designed to do without. But if you do use one, the company recommends an enclosure between 1 and 1.5 cubic feet for the HTR-7000.
I am not faulting your review, but as somebody who just put 4 in ceiling speakers in from Sandy's old company, I can tell you, the wide open space doesn't make them sound better. I tried them out in the open before putting them in the attic and they are better in the attic. But their boxed speakers definitely are just better than wide open space.

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post #33 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
I am not faulting your review, but as somebody who just put 4 in ceiling speakers in from Sandy's old company, I can tell you, the wide open space doesn't make them sound better. I tried them out in the open before putting them in the attic and they are better in the attic. But their boxed speakers definitely are just better than wide open space.
I'm not sure what you are describing here.

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post #34 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 12:48 PM
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I'm not sure what you are describing here.
My speakers arrived before I was ready to put them in, and just to make sure they were all working so I could return them if needed and before I cut holes, I tried them out. I just put them as my left and rights and put them on top of the boxes they came in and let them play. They are pretty horrible that way. I consulted with Def Tech on whether to box them in the ceiling or not when I installed them, and if not, what should I put over them. They said don't box them, with the same description GE gave to you. So I asked them if laying Roxul SafeNSound over them would work. They said that would be fine. So I have them installed and while they sound way better than in the open, they do not sound as good as the PM1000s which are the same drivers. Overall I am happy with the sound though and Atmos is great even in the Dolby Surround mode. It's much more enveloping and you feel like you are in the movie.

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post #35 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 01:47 PM
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Backwave Cancellation When Speakers Aren't Mounted

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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
My speakers arrived before I was ready to put them in, and just to make sure they were all working so I could return them if needed and before I cut holes, I tried them out. I just put them as my left and rights and put them on top of the boxes they came in and let them play. They are pretty horrible that way. I consulted with Def Tech on whether to box them in the ceiling or not when I installed them, and if not, what should I put over them. They said don't box them, with the same description GE gave to you. So I asked them if laying Roxul SafeNSound over them would work. They said that would be fine. So I have them installed and while they sound way better than in the open, they do not sound as good as the PM1000s which are the same drivers. Overall I am happy with the sound though and Atmos is great even in the Dolby Surround mode. It's much more enveloping and you feel like you are in the movie.
We are very thrilled at Mark's review of this system and we are looking forward to setting it up at CEDIA. This system was not necessarily conceived of to replace a more elaborate Atmos System with large floor standing speakers, such as we demo'ed last year at CEDIA, but rather to show a very high-performance, nearly invisible, alternative that may appeal to many listeners. Reading this posting, I thought that perhaps there was not a complete understanding of what is going on, so I thought I would chime in.
Regarding listening to in-wall speakers open mounted, obviously this does not work. All of these are designed to go in-wall or in-ceiling, which provides an infinite baffle, which prevents cancellation of the front and rear backwave coming off the woofers. When open mounted, you would get a complete cancellation of all low frequencies below several hundred cycles. The infinite baffle that the wall provides is similar to what happens when the speaker is put into a cabinet, although the wall mounting, in effect, acts as a larger cabinet, which extends the bass response. In terms of comparing your Definitive in-walls with your ProMonitor 1000s, although the drivers may seem similar (I can't comment specifically on the bass/midrange driver) but the tweeter, although both 1", are certainly not the same (the one in the in-wall uses a different magnet structure and I would imagine there are other differences). Also, I believe the crossover is different. Additionally the ProMonitor has a passive radiator, and the topology of the tweeter mounting (coaxially in the center of the driver) is different. In the 7000s, there is a very specific performance reason why the 7000s have the tweeter mounted as it does, rather than coaxially, as this works better. And the coaxial mounting of the tweeter in the Definitive in-wall (which is typical, our 525s and 650s are also)) is certainly not the same as the baffle mounting in the ProMonitor, both in terms of the topology around it, as well as its effect on the driver behind it. I hope that this clarifies some of this. All the Best, Sandy
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post #36 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenear tech View Post
We are very thrilled at Mark's review of this system and we are looking forward to setting it up at CEDIA. This system was not necessarily conceived of to replace a more elaborate Atmos System with large floor standing speakers, such as we demo'ed last year at CEDIA, but rather to show a very high-performance, nearly invisible, alternative that may appeal to many listeners. Reading this posting, I thought that perhaps there was not a complete understanding of what is going on, so I thought I would chime in.
Regarding listening to in-wall speakers open mounted, obviously this does not work. All of these are designed to go in-wall or in-ceiling, which provides an infinite baffle, which prevents cancellation of the front and rear backwave coming off the woofers. When open mounted, you would get a complete cancellation of all low frequencies below several hundred cycles. The infinite baffle that the wall provides is similar to what happens when the speaker is put into a cabinet, although the wall mounting, in effect, acts as a larger cabinet, which extends the bass response. In terms of comparing your Definitive in-walls with your ProMonitor 1000s, although the drivers may be similar (I can't comment specifically on the bass/midrange driver) but the tweeter, although both 1", are certainly not the same (the one in the in-wall uses a different magnet structure and I would imagine there are other differences). Also, I believe the crossover is different. Additionally the ProMonitor has a passive radiator, and the topology of the tweeter mounting (coaxially in the center of the driver) is different. In the 7000s, there is a very specific performance reason why the 7000s have the tweeter mounted as it does, rather than coaxially, as this works better. And the coaxial mounting of the tweeter in the Definitive in-wall (which is typical, our 525s and 650s are also)) is certainly not the same as the baffle mounting in the ProMonitor, both in terms of the topology around it, as well as its effect on the driver behind it. I hope that this clarifies some of this. All the Best, Sandy
Hello, It's an honor that you weighed in. All I am saying is that I would almost guarantee the boxes you mounted your speakers in, which you control the size and I am sure measure them before you send them out, are a much better setup than people like me who can mount in the ceiling, but just through some insulation over them our something. :-)

I really like the looks of your products and what I read about them. However, like I said earlier, I am almost to invested in Def Tech to give them a try. Plus, not quite as optimal for my surrounds. I will head over to Bjorn's in San Antonio and give them a listen. I see he finally carries them.
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post #37 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 03:56 PM
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This company makes me laugh! They use cheap speakers with super expensive amps!!

https://www.avsforum.com/goldenear-at...at-cedia-2014/

What a joke who is going to buy these speakers with these amps less than 0.1% of their customers!

Let's see three monoblock Pass Labs $17,000 each!! Total $51,000 for amps

https://passlabs.com/products/amplif...oint-5/xa200.5

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post #38 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This company makes me laugh! They use cheap speakers with super expensive amps!!

https://www.avsforum.com/goldenear-at...at-cedia-2014/

What a joke who is going to buy these speakers with these amps less than 0.1% of their customers!

Let's see three monoblock Pass Labs $17,000 each!! Total $51,000 for amps

https://passlabs.com/products/amplif...oint-5/xa200.5

You can use any decent amp with the speakers and get great results. You are making something out of nothing.
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post #39 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, It's an honor that you weighed in. All I am saying is that I would almost guarantee the boxes you mounted your speakers in, which you control the size and I am sure measure them before you send them out, are a much better setup than people like me who can mount in the ceiling, but just through some insulation over them our something. :-)

I really like the looks of your products and what I read about them. However, like I said earlier, I am almost to invested in Def Tech to give them a try. Plus, not quite as optimal for my surrounds. I will head over to Bjorn's in San Antonio and give them a listen. I see he finally carries them.
Sandy told me the only reason they are using black boxes is to prevent noise leakage at CEDIA, there are policies about that. But the main point is the HTR-7000 is designed for optimal use without back boxes. I'm not sure why you'd debate this point any further, there's nobody who can give you a better answer than Sandy.

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post #40 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 04:17 PM
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You can use any decent amp with the speakers and get great results. You are making something out of nothing.
They are misleading the consumer! They should use equipment in the same price range like an AV Receiver from Onkyo, Marantz and the like then people could see what they sound like in a real environment! That's all
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In the immortal words of Gwen Stefani, "this sh*t's bananas!"

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They are misleading the consumer! They should use equipment in the same price range like an AV Receiver from Onkyo, Marantz and the like then people could see what they sound like in a real environment! That's all
Do a bit of research and you'd find several major reviews using PeachTree Nova 220SE and the editors were still floored by the performance. Move along forum troll.
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post #43 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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They are misleading the consumer! They should use equipment in the same price range like an AV Receiver from Onkyo, Marantz and the like then people could see what they sound like in a real environment! That's all
How much of a difference to you expect people to hear? IMO there's no issue there. I've used GoldenEar gear a variet of gear from AVRs to pricey amps including some Classé gear as well as Rotel and Crestron Procise. IMO, the speakers should get the credit for the good sound, not the amps.

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post #44 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
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Sandy told me the only reason they are using black boxes is to prevent noise leakage at CEDIA, there are policies about that. But the main point is the HTR-7000 is designed for optimal use without back boxes. I'm not sure why you'd debate this point any further, there's nobody who can give you a better answer than Sandy.
It's not a debate, it's pointing out the obvious. Any vendor, not just GE, who is going to box their in ceiling speaker for a demo would make sure that box produced the best possible sound. It will give a completely different response than any user would get installing them in the multiple configurations of ceilings. I understand why they did it and I am sure they do sound great. I like all the products Sandy has created, but it's kind of an unfair comparison. It's more akin to putting a boxed speaker on your ceiling as you will see in some of the pics in the Atmos thread vs actual in ceiling installs.

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post #45 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not a debate, it's pointing out the obvious. Any vendor, not just GE, who is going to box their in ceiling speaker for a demo would make sure that box produced the best possible sound. It will give a completely different response than any user would get installing them in the multiple configurations of ceilings. I understand why they did it and I am sure they do sound great. I like all the products Sandy has created, but it's kind of an unfair comparison. It's more akin to putting a boxed speaker on your ceiling as you will see in some of the pics in the Atmos thread vs actual in ceiling installs.
OK, but you are arguing with both me and Sandy about something pretty basic, and you are not accepting the answer being offered. It should not be a debate because you have information coming directly from the best-possible sources. No big deal, you are free to believe what you want, but please at least consider the possibility that the information you are receiving is accurate.

I'm simply pointing out that Sandy and I might have some insight into this topic.
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post #46 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 05:14 PM
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advertisement? from PA speakers to GE.
Yes, I get the message.

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post #47 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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advertisement? from PA speakers to GE.
Seriously? Yes GoldenEar speakers (Triton 5s as well as this Invisa HTR-7000 installation) sound better than the Behringer B215XL PA speakers that I liked very much: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l-r-mains.html

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Yes, I get the message.
These comments are totally confusing. Can either of you elaborate?

edit - PMs sent and received. I understand what was being implied. Lol, gotta love the Interwebz
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post #48 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 06:36 PM
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In-Ceiling Installation of Invisas

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It's not a debate, it's pointing out the obvious. Any vendor, not just GE, who is going to box their in ceiling speaker for a demo would make sure that box produced the best possible sound. It will give a completely different response than any user would get installing them in the multiple configurations of ceilings. I understand why they did it and I am sure they do sound great. I like all the products Sandy has created, but it's kind of an unfair comparison. It's more akin to putting a boxed speaker on your ceiling as you will see in some of the pics in the Atmos thread vs actual in ceiling installs.
Hi Again, No, it is not a debate, I just want to pass along the information regarding what is being discussed. Actually, as I mentioned and as Mark passed along, we use these boxes at CEDIA in order to contain the sound outside our booth, which would otherwise get our demo shut down by those in charge. The Invisas are specifically engineered to perform optimally in the large air volume that they see when mounted in the ceiling without back boxes (this relates to the surrounds and spiders used, voicecoil parameters, magnetic circuit etc. among other things.) Actually the larger air volume that they see in the ceiling enhances performance. They will, however, perform well in a back box, when required for sound containment, which is sometimes necessary. If you go to our website, under Products (Invisas) and look at Press/Reviews, you will see several excellent ones on the 7000s, both as Atmos height speakers, as well as front main speakers, where they had no back boxes, as is more typical. Our dealers have done many installations of the 7000s, likewise with no back boxes, with excellent results. As Mark said, in order to facilitate his being able to set up the system, we loaned him our boxes that we use for shows. In fact, I would say, based on our experience, is that the installation at Mark's would actually have sounded better if done conventionally, but that option wasn't available. Enough said.... Sandy
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post #49 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 06:40 PM
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Hi Again, No, it is not a debate, I just want to pass along the information regarding what is being discussed. Actually, as I mentioned and as Mark passed along, we use these boxes at CEDIA in order to contain the sound outside our booth, which would otherwise get our demo shut down by those in charge. The Invisas are specifically engineered to perform optimally in the large air volume that they see when mounted in the ceiling without back boxes (this relates to the surrounds and spiders used, voicecoil parameters, magnetic circuit etc. among other things. Actually the larger air volume that they see in the ceiling enhances performance. They will, however, perform well in a back box, when required for sound containment, which is sometimes necessary. If you go to our website, under Products (Invisas) and look at Press/Reviews, you will see several excellent ones on the 7000s, both as Atmos height speakers, as well as front main speakers, where they had no back boxes, as is more typical. Our dealers have done many installations of the 7000s, likewise with no back boxes, with excellent results. As Mark said, in order to facilitate his being able to set up the system, we loaned him our boxes that we use for shows. In fact, I would say, based on our experience, is that the installation at Mark's would actually have sounded better if done conventionally, but that option wasn't available. Enough said.... Sandy
Thank you
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post #50 of 125 Old 10-03-2015, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
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They are misleading the consumer! They should use equipment in the same price range like an AV Receiver from Onkyo, Marantz and the like then people could see what they sound like in a real environment! That's all
Sandy is a two channel guy at heart and loves music thus the Pass Labs. Mr. Pass' products have been considered some of the best for years.

Now at CEDIA last year the surround processor I think was an integra and an oppo player. Still the fronts used Pass Labs not sure what the surrounds were powered by.

I have Triton 1's set up powered by Audio Control's Savoy G3 which is a 7x2000wpc with a MSRP OF $3,000 you are welcome to listen any time to to a "real environment"
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post #51 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 09:07 AM
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goldenear speakers

Hi Mark
Always look forward to each of your articles. They're always fun and informative to read.
Just had a wild idea and wondered what you thought.
I have a Emotiva XMC 1 pre-amp and realize it doesn't do Atmos, but thought about adding Goldenear speakers on the ceiling and wiring them to my L/R side inputs and getting a faux Atmos effect.
What are your thoughts?
Sounds crazy doesn't it. Can you buy Goldenear from a dealer on a trial basis?
Thanks for a reply.
Wayne B.
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post #52 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 03:16 PM
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If the HTR-7000 speakers are designed to project the sound to make it sound as if it were coming from tower speakers at ear level, how can they be used for the four Atmos speakers? Does this not make the height channels sound at ear level also?
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post #53 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 03:25 PM
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Apologies, I couldn't figure it out exactly from reading the article: what was the final speaker count w/ make & model? I get the 2 supersub XXLs, but a little foggy on the 7000 and Invisa MPX count. My brother has a drop ceiling in his basement, so mounting these things would be a breeze. Just wanting the specific count .
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post #54 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 03:48 PM
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HTR 7000s in Atmos Systems

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If the HTR-7000 speakers are designed to project the sound to make it sound as if it were coming from tower speakers at ear level, how can they be used for the four Atmos speakers? Does this not make the height channels sound at ear level also?
Hi, No, not when the 7000s are configured overhead as they are when used as height channels. When used as front channels, they are in the front of the room and are much farther away from the listeners, so they act differently. Thanks, Sandy
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post #55 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Apologies, I couldn't figure it out exactly from reading the article: what was the final speaker count w/ make & model? I get the 2 supersub XXLs, but a little foggy on the 7000 and Invisa MPX count. My brother has a drop ceiling in his basement, so mounting these things would be a breeze. Just wanting the specific count .
Seven channels of Invisa HTR-7000 (LCR plus 4 Atmos) and one pair of MPX acting as surrounds in a 5.1.4 configuration.

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post #56 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Ok let me bring some of my private message here so you can clear things like you did in private.

{I never been convinced by all the rave reviews of this speakers IMO they look like paid advertisements,You always been a PA and DIY fan ,I have no doubt that they sound good but I feel that they are paid advertisements or they are giving the speakers to the reviewers.

I apologize if I'm wrong but many people over the internet think the same way.}

Now you have the opportunity to clear that up.
There is nothing to clear up. I already wasted enough time on this.

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post #57 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 11:04 PM
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Cool. Wouldn't mind having a listen.

That said, being totally upfront and honest for a second... I'm actually getting pretty sick n tired of all the immersive audio talk. It's challenging enough getting a 5.1 speaker system in your average living room to sound great... adding even more speakers into the mix making it even more of a challenge is just nuts. Unless one is fortunate to have exactly the right circumstances (and unlimited budget) to get it right. I don't mind immersive audio at the theater, but at home... forget it! Besides, seeing how much time, money and effort I've gone through over the years making each speaker in my 5.1 system sound optimal I would already categorize the sound I'm getting as immersive. I don't need more channels, I just need better fidelity.

Rant over. Sorry.


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post #58 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
There is nothing to clear up. I already wasted enough time on this.
Oh I deleted my post while you was replying, I deleted the post because I was going to ask you first on private if it was ok to bring my private message here.

You can delete my reply if you want ,I honestly thought that you wanted the reply here.this is just my second post here beside the post that I deleted ,not sure if other people has made the same comments.

I apologize you definitely had a hard time placing those speakers up there.

Last edited by losservatore; 10-04-2015 at 11:47 PM.
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post #59 of 125 Old 10-04-2015, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RickyDeg View Post
It's challenging enough getting a 5.1 speaker system in your average living room to sound great
I have a 5.2 Revel Performa2 ,I'm renting I can't make holes on the ceiling also my speakers have a shape on the top that makes impossible to place speakers on top.

I agree is a challenge to get a simple 5.1 to sound the best possible.
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Last edited by losservatore; 10-04-2015 at 11:36 PM.
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post #60 of 125 Old 10-05-2015, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I have a 5.2 Revel Performa2 ,I'm renting I can't make holes on the ceiling also my speakers have a shape on the top that makes impossible to place speakers on top.
You won't need to. You have amazing speakers with fantastic potential as it is. Why risk adding more "problems/challenges" to deal with? I think the immersive audio trend in domestic homes is overrated. As much as I can appreciate immersive audio in a movie theater it's not often ideal or even possible in most "normal" living rooms. For those with dedicated rooms perhaps, but not even then I'm not so sure it's the most ideal situation.

And those "add-on" speakers... OMG! Don't even get me started! Putting a speaker ontop of another...! The world has gone bonkers! lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
I agree is a challenge to get a simple 5.1 to sound the best possible.
It is. I just feel there is less talk about achieving absolute fidelity these days and more talk about adding additional speakers, and sometimes quite a lot of them. More speakers doesn't equal better fidelity. Every installation and situation is of course different but more speakers isn't always the answer. But the industry has to sell us something new. I'm not buying it. I'd rather spend money and time 'perfecting' the 'standard' system I already have.
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