Elac Owners Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 2565 Old 11-04-2015, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pacodutaco View Post
I found another review of the ELAC Debut B5 speakers here:

http://noaudiophile.com/ELAC_B5/

It seems to say some of what other owners are saying in this thread.
The only thing I would not use them as is a NearField Monitor via in front of a computer as he states in the article. Many people use regular monitors for desktop use, some you can get away with, but the best speakers for this type of setting is a good NearField Monitor(IMHO), basically sitting up close.

Last edited by Garman; 11-04-2015 at 08:20 PM.
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post #242 of 2565 Old 11-04-2015, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
The only thing I would not use them as is a NearField Monitor via in front of a computer as he states in the article. Many people make the mistake of using regular monitors for desktop use, some you can get away with, but the best speakers for this type of setting is a good NearField Monitor, basically sitting up close.
I wouldn't call it a mistake. Nearfield monitors are referring to studio monitors which aren't necessarily made with the same goal as Hi-fi speakers, nor are there nearly as many great value-oriented options. Nearfield monitors typically have a more industrial look to them, and look much more belonging to a recording studio than a living room. They're also usually active, which might not be desirable to some people. If you have the space to properly accommodate a hi-fi speaker on a desk, I'd say the difference is fairly arbitrary. Just an opinion coming from someone who uses both nearfield monitors and Hi-fi speakers at a desk.
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post #243 of 2565 Old 11-04-2015, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post
I wouldn't call it a mistake. Nearfield monitors are referring to studio monitors which aren't necessarily made with the same goal as Hi-fi speakers, nor are there nearly as many great value-oriented options. Nearfield monitors typically have a more industrial look to them, and look much more belonging to a recording studio than a living room. They're also usually active, which might not be desirable to some people. If you have the space to properly accommodate a hi-fi speaker on a desk, I'd say the difference is fairly arbitrary. Just an opinion coming from someone who uses both nearfield monitors and Hi-fi speakers at a desk.
Dually noted and corrected in my last post! I have a friend who works for ETC "Electronic Theater Controls" who is a sound engineer so I am speaking to what he tells me and from my experiences of working at an Audio Shop during my college years etc.. I have hear Nearfield Monitors sound great in a much larger setup, but the nearfield monitors typically tend too work better in a more close up environment.
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post #244 of 2565 Old 11-04-2015, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
The only thing I would not use them as is a NearField Monitor via in front of a computer as he states in the article. Many people use regular monitors for desktop use, some you can get away with, but the best speakers for this type of setting is a good NearField Monitor(IMHO), basically sitting up close.
These speakers sound great both near field and seven feet away

- KEF LS50
- Parasound S1Be
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post #245 of 2565 Old 11-04-2015, 08:31 PM
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wse: I totally agree, the KEF especially. I am looking at getting another pair of the KEF down the road, and going with the new color versions. Funny thing is I sold them to pay for a Ski trip and bought the Elac on a whim and was pleasantly surprised when I compared them?
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post #246 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 03:00 PM
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So...were these speakers voiced with grills on or off?
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post #247 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
wse: I totally agree, the KEF especially. I am looking at getting another pair of the KEF down the road, and going with the new color versions. Funny thing is I sold them to pay for a Ski trip and bought the Elac on a whim and was pleasantly surprised when I compared them?
What did the KEFs offer that's missing in the ELAC speakers?
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post #248 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mark.hayes0338 View Post
I have to say I somewhat agree, but I don't think it is as bad as this post makes it sound. The highs definitely are not harsh or forward. Right now I have a head cold and can't hear very well, but I can't say that I'm disappointed in the B5's. For a $230 pair of speakers I think they perform very well. I listened to them all day yesterday and never grew tired of them at all. Throughout the day I began to enjoy them more and more. At the end of the day, just different opinions on listening preferences I think. I don't like the highs to be in my face as much so they work well for me, even though I could use a shade more on the high end.
I'd look at Chane then.
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post #249 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 09:37 PM
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I wonder why ELAC North America didn't use one of the J.E.T. tweeters ELAC Europe has made famous. I am actually surprised they didn't. Their tweeter technology, now used in many speaker they manufacturer, should be part of the signature speakers they bring to North America. I believe that one change (even if price increases by $15-$25 per unit, would probably take care of the lack-luster highs that people have been reporting. As I see it, it's not like the mainstream consumer will be the target audience. Currently, the speakers are not being offered for sale through big box stores like Best Buy. I am sure that could change but I am not aware of any plans for that to happen. These are budget speakers designed to be affordable for budget-minded audiophiles and most of the sales will end up being by people doing research online (like myself), by word of mouth and by forums like this one. Maybe the J.E.T. tweeters technology will be incorporated within the mid-grade ELAC speaker offerings coming in 2016 along with the integrated amplifier I am anxious to find out more about.. I hope so.

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Last edited by Pacodutaco; 11-06-2015 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Corrected it to state J.E.T. tweeter instead of ribbon tweeter.
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post #250 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by loop7 View Post
What did the KEFs offer that's missing in the ELAC speakers?
Better overall balance, and more detail.. I think the Elac shine in the under $1000 bracket and are a steal at their price point there is no doubting that whatsoever... I can sit hear and paint a picture what I like or try to talk you into another brand, the best best is try them out, your not breaking the bank trying these speaker out, and most will be perfectly content listening too them, so far I am and they are in my office. Next up I am going to compare them to a pair of PBS Imagine Mini speakers that I like, it's a much smaller speaker than the B6 and even smaller than the B5 but it puts out some big sound and is a speaker that many over look from a great Canadian company.

Pacodutaco: They wanted to keep the cost down, and the ribbon tweeters are a lot more expensive... If your looking for a speaker the has both a ribbon and a regular soft dome tweeter, check out Dali Ikon series. I think the highs are decent, in the price point they are in and even much higher as stated in my above comment.

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post #251 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Pacodutaco View Post
I wonder why ELAC North America didn't use one of the ribbon tweeters ELAC Europe has made famous. I am actually surprised they didn't. Their tweeter technology, now used by many speaker manufacturers, should be part of the signature of new speakers they bring to North America. I believe that one change (even if price increases by $15-$25 per unit, would probably take care of the lack-luster highs that people have been reporting. As I see it, it's not like the mainstream consumer will be the target audience. Currently, the speakers are not being offered for sale through big box stores like Best Buy. I am sure that could change but I am not aware of any plans for that to happen. These are budget speakers designed to be affordable for budget-minded audiophiles and most of the sales will end up being by people doing research online (like myself), by word of mouth and by forums like this one. Maybe the ribbon tweeter technology will be released incorporated within the mid-grade ELAC speaker offerings coming in 2016 along with the integrated amplifier I am anxious to find out more about.. I hope so.
I would bet those ribbon tweeters cost much more than $15-25. I don't think we'll start seeing those until around the $700 range or higher. RAAL ribbons can be that much by themselves, and I'm sure the ELAC tweeters are of similar quality.

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post #252 of 2565 Old 11-05-2015, 11:57 PM
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I found another review of the B6 for you guys to check out. Interesting part regarding the sound stage of the speaker. I haven't heard much regarding it.

http://geeknizer.com/elac-b6-review/

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post #253 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jumuo View Post
I would bet those ribbon tweeters cost much more than $15-25. I don't think we'll start seeing those until around the $700 range or higher. RAAL ribbons can be that much by themselves, and I'm sure the ELAC ribbons are of similar quality.

I am sure they do but if you take the $15-$25 and add in the $20 or so they already spent on the tweeter it should be fairly close considering ELAC owns the J.E.T. tweeter and they don't need to license it to themselves. I'm not suggesting putting the top of the line tweeter in the speaker either; just a good solid choice similar to the one used in the Chane A1rx-c. Their tweeter is the main reason to consider the Chane speakers in the $300 and under "audiophile affordable" segment, in my own opinion of course. It defines Chane and not many speakers in this price range have the same clarity or crisp highs that this type of tweeter produces. It is what makes the Chane A1rx-c speaker so desirable to many. This is why I was surprised a J.E.T. tweeters wasn't used in the Debut line. Hopefully, the next price point speakers being designed will offer this as a standard feature.
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Last edited by Pacodutaco; 11-06-2015 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Corrected post to say J.E.T. tweeter instead of ribbon tweeter
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post #254 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Pacodutaco View Post
I am sure they do but if you take the $15-$25 and add in the $20 or so they already spent on the tweeter it should be fairly close considering ELAC invented the ribbon tweeter and they don't need to license it to themselves. I'm not suggesting putting the top of the line ribbon tweeter in the speaker either; just a good solid choice similar to the one used in the Chane A1rx-c. Their ribbon tweeter is the main reason to consider the Chane speakers in the $300 and under "audiophile affordable" segment, in my own opinion of course. It defines Chane and not many speakers in this price range have the same clarity or crisp highs that this type of tweeter produces. It is what makes the Chane A1rx-c speaker so desirable to many. This is why I was surprised a ribbon tweeter wasn't used in the Debut line. Hopefully, the next price point speakers being designed will offer this as a standard feature.
The Chanes actually use a planar-magnetic tweeter. It's not a true ribbon. Those cost much more.

Also, ELAC didn't invent the ribbon, planar-magentic, or the air motion transducer tweeter. The AMT was actually invented by Dr. Oskar Heil. Several companies besides ELAC use that type of tweeter, including Martin Logan. ELAC just uses the AMT tweeters under the name JET.
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post #255 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jumuo View Post
The Chanes actually use a planar-magnetic tweeter. It's not a true ribbon. Those cost much more.

Also, ELAC didn't invent the ribbon, planar-magentic, or the air motion transducer tweeter. The AMT was actually invented by Dr. Oskar Heil. Several companies besides ELAC use that type of tweeter, including Martin Logan. ELAC just uses the AMT tweeters under the name JET.
So do they use any true ribbons?
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post #256 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 01:25 PM
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So do they use any true ribbons?
ELAC? Not that I saw. I think they're all AMT tweeters. Chane definitely doesn't.

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post #257 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 01:34 PM
 
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I haven't heard these speakers yet, but have been following them for the past few months. I hate to be a pessimist, but I am a firm believer in the old adage that states "you get what you pay for"(relatively speaking, and referring to new retail cost).

The Pioneer speakers Andrew Jones designed were both mediocre at best IMO, and I don't think anyone would have given two craps about them if the marketing didn't have Andrew Jones name plastered all over them. The same applies to these. In this day and age, Andrew Jones name is worth more to a company than the actual design and sound of the speakers.

I'm sure they sound better than the over hyped Pioneer models, but you are still buying a $250 pair of speakers.

Do you really think a $15k speaker costs $8-10k more to make than a $5k speaker? No! The sound dictates the price. So if the manufacturer can produce a speaker for $300 cost, and sell it for $15K because it sounds like an angel playing a harp in heaven; they are going to. If the R&D results in something amazing that truly competes with higher dollar speakers, you can bet your last dollar that the manufacturer is going to milk that sound for every dollar they can.

I'm afraid that my opinion is, this is another over hyped marketing ploy with Andrew Jones name attached to it. Once again....you get what you pay for.
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post #258 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jumuo View Post
Also, ELAC didn't invent the ribbon, planar-magentic, or the air motion transducer tweeter. The AMT was actually invented by Dr. Oskar Heil. Several companies besides ELAC use that type of tweeter, including Martin Logan. ELAC just uses the AMT tweeters under the name JET.
Thanks for clarifying that. I was always under the impression that the original patent was under Heil.

The Air Motion Transformer (AMT) is a type of electroacoustic transducer or loudspeaker, also called Air Velocity Transformer (AVT) or JET transducer. Invented by Dr. Oskar Heil, it operates on a different transduction principle than other loudspeaker designs, such as moving coil, planar magnetic or electrostatically driven loudspeakers, and should not be confused with planar or true ribbon loudspeakers. In contrast to a planar ribbon loudspeaker the diaphragm of the AMT is of pleated shape similar to a bellows. The AMT moves air in an augmented, semi-perpendicular motion using a folded sheet (made of polyethylene, polyester or polyimide), structured around a series of aluminum struts positioned in a high-intensity magnetic field.
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post #259 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pacodutaco View Post
I found another review of the B6 for you guys to check out. Interesting part regarding the sound stage of the speaker. I haven't heard much regarding it.

http://geeknizer.com/elac-b6-review/
What is (mildly) interesting is the gross and sloppy plagiarizing and the undeclared attempt to credit one's own Amazon account.

Geeknizer: "Pair the Debut B6 with a decent integrated amp like the NAD C 316BEE, or Onkyo’s excellent TX-8020 stereo receiver, or a classic Marantz and you’d have a killer budget, yet fully audiophile-grade stereo system."

CNET:

"Pair the Debut B6 with a decent integrated amp like the NAD C 316BEE, or Onkyo's excellent TX-8020 stereo receiver, and perhaps a U-Turn Orbit turntable, and you'd have a killer budget, yet fully audiophile-grade stereo system."

Geeknizer"

"These speakers blow away the competition at a rock bottom price without sacrificing quality. The ELAC Debut B6 is that speaker. It’s a stunning achievement. It's a stunning achievement. "

CNET: "...blow away the competition at a rock bottom price without sacrificing quality. The ELAC Debut B6 is that speaker. It's a stunning achievement."
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post #260 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 02:36 PM
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I'm afraid that my opinion is, this is another over hyped marketing ploy with Andrew Jones name attached to it. Once again....you get what you pay for.
Hyperbole aside, I think it's pretty clear that with some speakers you get more for what you pay for than others. It's a bit unfair to dismiss the speakers entirely based on assumptions. Are they the best value ever? No - I think Dennis' monitors are honestly a better value. But these are still pretty excellent for the money.
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post #261 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't heard these speakers yet, but have been following them for the past few months. I hate to be a pessimist, but I am a firm believer in the old adage that states "you get what you pay for"(relatively speaking, and referring to new retail cost).

The Pioneer speakers Andrew Jones designed were both mediocre at best IMO, and I don't think anyone would have given two craps about them if the marketing didn't have Andrew Jones name plastered all over them. The same applies to these. In this day and age, Andrew Jones name is worth more to a company than the actual design and sound of the speakers.

I'm sure they sound better than the over hyped Pioneer models, but you are still buying a $250 pair of speakers.

Do you really think a $15k speaker costs $8-10k more to make than a $5k speaker? No! The sound dictates the price. So if the manufacturer can produce a speaker for $300 cost, and sell it for $15K because it sounds like an angel playing a harp in heaven; they are going to. If the R&D results in something amazing that truly competes with higher dollar speakers, you can bet your last dollar that the manufacturer is going to milk that sound for every dollar they can.

I'm afraid that my opinion is, this is another over hyped marketing ploy with Andrew Jones' name attached to it. Once again....you get what you pay for.
Many things dictate the price, including successful marketing. I believe most consumers heard of Andrew Jones through Steve Guttenberg's CNET articles and the Wirecutter recommendation and the hype is frankly limited at this time to bargain hunting audio enthusiasts. AJ is not a household name. By the way, a kid was beaten and hospitalized recently over "Beats By Dre" headphones.

Last edited by Chili99; 11-06-2015 at 03:29 PM.
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post #262 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jumuo View Post
The Chanes actually use a planar-magnetic tweeter. It's not a true ribbon. Those cost much more.

Also, ELAC didn't invent the ribbon, planar-magentic, or the air motion transducer tweeter. The AMT was actually invented by Dr. Oskar Heil. Several companies besides ELAC use that type of tweeter, including Martin Logan. ELAC just uses the AMT tweeters under the name JET.
Sorry, I stated ribbon tweeter but should have said J.E.T. tweeter system they acquired in 1993 from A.R.E.S. It is used in many of ELAC's speakers. Sorry for my mistake. I have corrected this in my original post.

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post #263 of 2565 Old 11-06-2015, 04:59 PM
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Sorry, I stated ribbon tweeter but should have said J.E.T. tweeter system they acquired in 1993 from A.R.E.S. It is used in many of ELAC's speakers. Sorry for my mistake. I have corrected this in my original post.
It would definitely be nice if they did use an AMT/JET tweeter in a lower cost model. Unfortunately, I just don't see them doing that. Who knows how much it costs to produce them. Planar magnetics are much cheaper, though, so that might be a viable alternative. Unfortunately, hardly anyone is using even those in more budget minded models, besides Chane and HDT. I don't know if that has to do with quality issues, or if manufacturers feel they can get a better soft dome or metal dome tweeter at the same cost or less. Personally, I'd like to see more planar magnetic tweeters in the budget range. I've heard some wonderful soft and metal dome tweeters, but they're generally at a higher price bracket.
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post #264 of 2565 Old 11-07-2015, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheFidelity View Post
I haven't heard these speakers yet, but have been following them for the past few months. I hate to be a pessimist, but I am a firm believer in the old adage that states "you get what you pay for"(relatively speaking, and referring to new retail cost).

The Pioneer speakers Andrew Jones designed were both mediocre at best IMO, and I don't think anyone would have given two craps about them if the marketing didn't have Andrew Jones name plastered all over them. The same applies to these. In this day and age, Andrew Jones name is worth more to a company than the actual design and sound of the speakers.

I'm sure they sound better than the over hyped Pioneer models, but you are still buying a $250 pair of speakers.

Do you really think a $15k speaker costs $8-10k more to make than a $5k speaker? No! The sound dictates the price. So if the manufacturer can produce a speaker for $300 cost, and sell it for $15K because it sounds like an angel playing a harp in heaven; they are going to. If the R&D results in something amazing that truly competes with higher dollar speakers, you can bet your last dollar that the manufacturer is going to milk that sound for every dollar they can.

I'm afraid that my opinion is, this is another over hyped marketing ploy with Andrew Jones name attached to it. Once again....you get what you pay for.
When I see "I haven't heard", then a long winded reply on hype etc.. I think, sounds like your a pessimist that works for the competition! jk! LOL The Pioneers sounded better than a lot of the sub $500 speakers I have heard, these Elac sound better than a ton of speakers in the $1500-$1000 range and I should know as I have compared them to several. I also heard AJs TAD speakers awhile back ago which where excellent and currently own Dynaudio Confidence C2s, the problem I have with many mega priced marketed speakers is your throwing a lot more money out the window when you get them home and they suck!

Last edited by Garman; 11-07-2015 at 09:38 PM.
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post #265 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 01:58 PM
 
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The Pioneers sounded better than a lot of the sub $500 speakers I have heard,
Disagree. A 4" driver can't defy physics. There is no replacement for displacement. There are a few other speakers in their price range that are much better. I would have taken the Fluance SX6, or the BIC Ventura any day over those Pioneers.

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these Elac sound better than a ton of speakers in the $1500-$1000 range and I should know as I have compared them to several.
Really? Which $1,500 speakers have they bested in a direct blind A/B comparison? I'd like to hear the details and results of the test.

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Originally Posted by Garman View Post
I also heard AJs TAD speakers awhile back ago which where excellent and currently own Dynaudio Confidence C2s, the problem I have with many mega priced marketed speakers is your throwing a lot more money out the window when you get them home and they suck!
What does that have to do with anything? So you heard a speaker that starts at around $25,000, that he designed, so that makes his $250 offering a miracle? You just proved my point. Throw his name at it and the psychoacoustics begin. Andrew has stated many times, in interviews, that these lower level speakers share basically NOTHING with the TAD speakers.

Last edited by TheFidelity; 11-08-2015 at 02:02 PM.
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post #266 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 03:01 PM
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Do you really think a $15k speaker costs $8-10k more to make than a $5k speaker? No! The sound dictates the price. So if the manufacturer can produce a speaker for $300 cost, and sell it for $15K because it sounds like an angel playing a harp in heaven; they are going to.
Well, maybe yes, maybe no. You'll make a lot more money selling 10,000 pairs of $300 cost speakers for $500 ($2 million) than you'll make selling 10 pairs of the same speakers for $15K. ($147,000) Elasticity of demand matters a lot. I'm very happy with my Elacs, and I came very close to a pair of B&W 683s with associated center (and some set of cheap surrounds I hadn't picked out yet). Now granted, those weren't $5K but they were over $2K. And there were things I thought were marginally better than the Elacs, but it was marginal. And a $5K set of speakers could sound like an angel whispering to me personally but I don't care. So if AJ and Elac had chosen to charge $15K for these speakers, or even $2K, then their profit on me would have been exactly $0, instead of their actual profit on $1K of speakers, let's guess $300-$500. And I don't know what the B&Ws cost to make, but if they'd been $1000 per pair instead of $1750, they'd be sitting in my media room now. I'm sure B&W have thought carefully about pricing and accept my failure to buy as part of their strategy.
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post #267 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 03:12 PM
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Well, maybe yes, maybe no. You'll make a lot more money selling 10,000 pairs of $300 cost speakers for $500 ($2 million) than you'll make selling 10 pairs of the same speakers for $15K. ($147,000) Elasticity of demand matters a lot. I'm very happy with my Elacs, and I came very close to a pair of B&W 683s with associated center (and some set of cheap surrounds I hadn't picked out yet). Now granted, those weren't $5K but they were over $2K. And there were things I thought were marginally better than the Elacs, but it was marginal. And a $5K set of speakers could sound like an angel whispering to me personally but I don't care. So if AJ and Elac had chosen to charge $15K for these speakers, or even $2K, then their profit on me would have been exactly $0, instead of their actual profit on $1K of speakers, let's guess $300-$500. And I don't know what the B&Ws cost to make, but if they'd been $1000 per pair instead of $1750, they'd be sitting in my media room now. I'm sure B&W have thought carefully about pricing and accept my failure to buy as part of their strategy.
The difference is that B&W sells through dealers with brick & mortar shops! So the cost the dealer pays for is 40 to 50% less than what the consumer pay for. ELAC sells direct and therefore eliminate the dealer

Of course some companies git really smart and start selling direct like KEF but they still charge the smae as their dealer so it means more profit to them as they bypass the dealers

Unfortunately most high end brands require to have dealers and ban internet sale!
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post #268 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 03:18 PM
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Of course that's true, wse. When i say "cost" for the B&W's the cost of their dealer network is certainly part of it. So you're right that $500 or so (I'd guess a lot less for their 600 line than the 800 line as a percentage) of that $2.2K price goes to the dealer.

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Last edited by jsfalk; 11-08-2015 at 03:23 PM.
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post #269 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 04:09 PM
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Disagree. A 4" driver can't defy physics. There is no replacement for displacement. There are a few other speakers in their price range that are much better. I would have taken the Fluance SX6, or the BIC Ventura any day over those Pioneers.
Hilarious-you tell Garman what HE actually heard WITH HIS OWN ears is completely false. Wow - you must be one of them "audiophile" fellers...

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post #270 of 2565 Old 11-08-2015, 04:45 PM
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Hilarious-you tell Garman what HE actually heard WITH HIS OWN ears is completely false. Wow - you must be one of them "audiophile" fellers...
Wow, this is getting to be a bit of a heated debate. It is true you can't defy physics as stated by TheFidelity, however, since everyone hears things differently, one person's impression of a pair of speakers will differ with another. Myself, I can't stand to listen to speakers with horn tweeters. Soft dome tweeters are ok but my ears prefer metal tweeters. Metal tweeters are brighter and crisp sounding to me and that is what I like from a good recording. Others may prefer bass that will knock your socks off. While I like bass, I have no interest in the extra bass that you get from a sub-woofer over a decent pair of loudspeakers. Judging from all the posts I have seen regarding sub-woofers, many people would disagree with the way I feel about them. To each his/her own.

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