Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers? - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 434 Old 10-15-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by loudogp250 View Post
Thank you for posting this. I am in the process of a basement remodel and cannot decide on where to place my ceiling speakers.
If you're only going to do two overhead, I'd go with top middle or whatever set would be above your main listening position as you'll get the most overhead effect. If you're going to do four, then either front/rear heights or tops and it will phantom image overhead when needed (unless your room is too long, in which case you either space them around the listening area (ahead of and behind) or go to six overheads. With six, there's nothing to decide, really other than height versus tops for front/rear. I'd go heights with six speakers as I think you get more connection to the screen itself (tops sit 1/3 out into the room whereas heights can be above or above and just in front of the screen by comparison).

That's basically what I use with six overheads (front/rear heights plus top middle/surround height as my "top middle" are in the surround height position on the top of the side wall instead, but in my narrow room that's only 2.5' outward from the top middle location and at least with the processor set to "heights" I can't really hear the deviation. I can hear the deviation somewhat with it set to 'tops' so I assume heights blend differently with the lower speakers somehow enough to phantom inward slightly). Since there's very little Auro-3D material out there (e.g. I only have ten movies and a demo disc in Auro-3D compared to 35 with DTS:X and 70 with Atmos [more with streaming Atmos]), I wouldn't worry about it unless your room presents a problem like mine does with a steel beam box in the way for true top middle) and go with a regular Atmos alignment (straight line back rather than surround heights outward above the side surrounds).

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post #392 of 434 Old 10-15-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
If you're only going to do two overhead, I'd go with top middle or whatever set would be above your main listening position as you'll get the most overhead effect. If you're going to do four, then either front/rear heights or tops and it will phantom image overhead when needed (unless your room is too long, in which case you either space them around the listening area (ahead of and behind) or go to six overheads. With six, there's nothing to decide, really other than height versus tops for front/rear. I'd go heights with six speakers as I think you get more connection to the screen itself (tops sit 1/3 out into the room whereas heights can be above or above and just in front of the screen by comparison).

That's basically what I use with six overheads (front/rear heights plus top middle/surround height as my "top middle" are in the surround height position on the top of the side wall instead, but in my narrow room that's only 2.5' outward from the top middle location and at least with the processor set to "heights" I can't really hear the deviation. I can hear the deviation somewhat with it set to 'tops' so I assume heights blend differently with the lower speakers somehow enough to phantom inward slightly). Since there's very little Auro-3D material out there (e.g. I only have ten movies and a demo disc in Auro-3D compared to 35 with DTS:X and 70 with Atmos [more with streaming Atmos]), I wouldn't worry about it unless your room presents a problem like mine does with a steel beam box in the way for true top middle) and go with a regular Atmos alignment (straight line back rather than surround heights outward above the side surrounds).
What do you think about mounting the fronts directly to the ceiling? Attached is my future layout. The room will be 16.7 x 15ft.
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post #393 of 434 Old 10-16-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by loudogp250 View Post
What do you think about mounting the fronts directly to the ceiling? Attached is my future layout. The room will be 16.7 x 15ft.
There's nothing wrong with putting the Atmos speakers on the ceiling. Are you planning on doing 7.2.2 or 7.2.4?
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post #394 of 434 Old 10-16-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by magnumx View Post
there's nothing wrong with putting the atmos speakers on the ceiling. Are you planning on doing 7.2.2 or 7.2.4?
7.2.4
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post #395 of 434 Old 10-16-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by loudogp250 View Post

7.2.4
I'd go for 45 degree angles from the main listening seat above the main speakers (or rears; I'd pick one and do a straight line).
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post #396 of 434 Old 10-16-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loudogp250 View Post
7.2.4

I have a small space (13'4 x 12'8) and I have my atmos setup as front height / rear height and all on the ceiling. I do like the way it sounds though it did take a little time to determine the best angle for the front heights. I also toed them in toward the MLP, but I don't point them directly at the MLP, more like toward my knees when seated (for the fronts) and toward the middle of the outside seats (for the rears).
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post #397 of 434 Old 10-21-2019, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cal1981 View Post
So I've been testing and comparing Dolby Fronts (Up-fires), Front Heights, Front Heights set as Top Fronts and Front Heights set as Top Middles. Setting the Front Heights as Top Middles resulted in an odd sound stage but making them Top Fronts resulted in a more robust and immersive sound presence than the normal Front Heights or the Dolby Up-firing speakers. I have one of the Dolby Atmos demo discs and the Amaze clip really shows off that process. With the Top Fronts I got more of a sense of overhead sound than I did with the other speakers or settings. It's clearly not as good as ceiling speakers but for what it is, it's decent.

I moved some speakers/subs around and re-ran Audyssey. Based on this info you provided in a previous post about your testing, I decided to experiment with changing my rear atmos speaker configuration, since they are only a few feet behind me as opposed to my front atmos speakers, which are about 9 feet forward of my position. I have been running in a front height / rear height setup for a good while now, but this time I set my amp assignment for height channels to Front Height / Top Rears, and after completing the Audyssey calibration and bumping up my atmos speakers a few db's, I have to say, I like it a lot better setup this way. Not sure why it sounds different, but it definitely does.
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post #398 of 434 Old 10-27-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
I moved some speakers/subs around and re-ran Audyssey. Based on this info you provided in a previous post about your testing, I decided to experiment with changing my rear atmos speaker configuration, since they are only a few feet behind me as opposed to my front atmos speakers, which are about 9 feet forward of my position. I have been running in a front height / rear height setup for a good while now, but this time I set my amp assignment for height channels to Front Height / Top Rears, and after completing the Audyssey calibration and bumping up my atmos speakers a few db's, I have to say, I like it a lot better setup this way. Not sure why it sounds different, but it definitely does.
I got a pair of SVS Prime Elevations to use as my front height speakers. it was a hassle but I finally got them mounted just below the ceiling. I'll put them though paces over the next few days to see what they can do.
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post #399 of 434 Old 10-28-2019, 07:54 PM
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I watched some scenes from several Atmos movies yesterday. While the SVS Elevations used as front heights did add some sense of overhead sound, what was more noticeable was how much more open and immersive it was. At the suggestion of some folks here on AVS, I set the Elevations to run 4.5/5 dbs hotter than Audessey had set them. That resulted in a significant improvement in how they sounded. The first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan, with it's brutal Omaha Beach landing sequence, was very impressive with battle sounds coming from all directions. The last movie that I looked at was Silverado with its brilliant music score. It has a Dolby TrueHD 5.1 soundtrack which DSU took out to my 5.1.2 system. When a full orchestral part of the score played in a scene it was pretty startling. The music completely filled my living room and was very dynamic. It was terrific. I would consider getting another pair of Elevations to use as rear heights but my couch is close to the back wall so how feasible that would be I'm not sure. By all accounts a 5.1.4 system with Elevations is supposed to be outstanding. I'll probably call the SVS guys and ask them about it.
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post #400 of 434 Old 10-29-2019, 08:56 AM
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I don't think the couch proximity to the rear wall would hurt it much to have rear overheads. Whether they're set to be top middle or rear top or even rear height, its still going to be better with than without. Right overhead or close to it is the best place IMO for only two overhead speakers so having that plus front heights should be quite nice.

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post #401 of 434 Old 10-30-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
I don't think the couch proximity to the rear wall would hurt it much to have rear overheads. Whether they're set to be top middle or rear top or even rear height, its still going to be better with than without. Right overhead or close to it is the best place IMO for only two overhead speakers so having that plus front heights should be quite nice.
I did speak to one of the SVS guys today about getting another pair of Elevations to use in a 5.1.4 setup with the couch close to the back wall. He felt that keeping the current elevations as front heights and mounting the new Elevations high on the back wall (while lowering my surround speakers a bit) and configuring them as Top Middles would give me a very immersive bubble of sound. Sounded pretty good to me. I'd have to get additional speaker wires run from the back to the front wall via the attic space. I'll go with the front heights for a while before jumping off on the extra speakers.
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post #402 of 434 Old 12-27-2019, 03:02 PM
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I'm dealing with a small room and very low ceiling (7 foot ceiling). My listening position is about 9 feet from the front wall. I have the Klipsch RP-500SA and I tried them as upfiring Atmos speakers on top of my towers but because my ceilings are so low I had to try and angle them up higher for the sound to make it to me from the ceiling. And then the problem is the more you angle them up you the more direct sound from them.

So front heights are about my only option but should they be angled down and toed-in so they're aimed right at the listening position? Or should they be aimed so the sound would be going a bit above your head? With the 20 degree angle of the Klipsch Atmos speakers it looks like they would be aimed right at my head or slightly below. Or would it be better to get a mount so I could tilt them up slightly and toe them in?

I also have another pair of the Klipsch RP-500SA coming for rear heights if that will influence what I should do with the front heights. My listening position is about a foot and a half from the back wall so I should be able to aim the rear heights down and in towards the listening position with some mounts. Thank you for any help with this.
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post #403 of 434 Old 12-27-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by bytor View Post
I'm dealing with a small room and very low ceiling (7 foot ceiling). My listening position is about 9 feet from the front wall. I have the Klipsch RP-500SA and I tried them as upfiring Atmos speakers on top of my towers but because my ceilings are so low I had to try and angle them up higher for the sound to make it to me from the ceiling. And then the problem is the more you angle them up you the more direct sound from them.

So front heights are about my only option but should they be angled down and toed-in so they're aimed right at the listening position? Or should they be aimed so the sound would be going a bit above your head? With the 20 degree angle of the Klipsch Atmos speakers it looks like they would be aimed right at my head or slightly below. Or would it be better to get a mount so I could tilt them up slightly and toe them in?

I also have another pair of the Klipsch RP-500SA coming for rear heights if that will influence what I should do with the front heights. My listening position is about a foot and a half from the back wall so I should be able to aim the rear heights down and in towards the listening position with some mounts. Thank you for any help with this.
I'd angle them down for best frequency response (less important if off-axis response of the speakers is really good). The low ceiling might affect separation to some degree (unless you can do in-ceiling mounts), but I always say some Atmos is better than no Atmos.
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post #404 of 434 Old 12-27-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bytor View Post
I'm dealing with a small room and very low ceiling (7 foot ceiling). My listening position is about 9 feet from the front wall. I have the Klipsch RP-500SA and I tried them as upfiring Atmos speakers on top of my towers but because my ceilings are so low I had to try and angle them up higher for the sound to make it to me from the ceiling. And then the problem is the more you angle them up you the more direct sound from them.



So front heights are about my only option but should they be angled down and toed-in so they're aimed right at the listening position? Or should they be aimed so the sound would be going a bit above your head? With the 20 degree angle of the Klipsch Atmos speakers it looks like they would be aimed right at my head or slightly below. Or would it be better to get a mount so I could tilt them up slightly and toe them in?



I also have another pair of the Klipsch RP-500SA coming for rear heights if that will influence what I should do with the front heights. My listening position is about a foot and a half from the back wall so I should be able to aim the rear heights down and in towards the listening position with some mounts. Thank you for any help with this.
Get a mount so that you can play with the angle, experiment what is best. Some said based on their experiment, better if aimed above the head.

I will be doing 5.1.2, front height and I am researching how to do it. I bought a speaker mount for bookshelf speaker that I can adjust to point in any direction. I have 8' ceiling.

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post #405 of 434 Old 12-27-2019, 05:23 PM
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The only thing angling a speaker does is point the on-axis part of the speaker towards the listening location. This is typically done because many speakers have much poorer frequency response off-axis (especially in the treble range) so pointing them so the on-axis drivers are facing the listener improves the overall frequency response. If you have excellent off-axis response (some speakers like this do exist and many are better than others), then it's less important. I can't imagine any situation where the sound would get subjectively "worse" if you pointed the speakers at the listener regardless, though. In other words, there's no real need to experiment in that regard, IMO as you'll almost always get the best response with any given speaker on-axis, however slight or great.
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Thanks guys, Klipsch generally aren't very good off-axis so I'll just do it right and mount them. This is a picture of the R-41SA's to see the space I'm working with, which I initially had but returned them and bought the RP-500SA. The 500SA's blend a lot better with my old RF-35's and RC-7.
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post #407 of 434 Old 12-28-2019, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The only thing angling a speaker does is point the on-axis part of the speaker towards the listening location. This is typically done because many speakers have much poorer frequency response off-axis (especially in the treble range) so pointing them so the on-axis drivers are facing the listener improves the overall frequency response. If you have excellent off-axis response (some speakers like this do exist and many are better than others), then it's less important. I can't imagine any situation where the sound would get subjectively "worse" if you pointed the speakers at the listener regardless, though. In other words, there's no real need to experiment in that regard, IMO as you'll almost always get the best response with any given speaker on-axis, however slight or great.
One exception is if your speakers are little too bright for your taste. They will need a bit of experimenting to sound the best.

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post #408 of 434 Old 12-28-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
The only thing angling a speaker does is point the on-axis part of the speaker towards the listening location. This is typically done because many speakers have much poorer frequency response off-axis (especially in the treble range) so pointing them so the on-axis drivers are facing the listener improves the overall frequency response. If you have excellent off-axis response (some speakers like this do exist and many are better than others), then it's less important. I can't imagine any situation where the sound would get subjectively "worse" if you pointed the speakers at the listener regardless, though. In other words, there's no real need to experiment in that regard, IMO as you'll almost always get the best response with any given speaker on-axis, however slight or great.
One exception is if your speakers are little too bright for your taste. They will need a bit of experimenting to sound the best.

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You could also use some EQ to custom tailor it exactly how you like it (custom Audyssey curve for example) or perhaps something as simple as using Reference instead of Flat could help in some cases. The Cinema EQ (RE-EQ on THX equipment) setting can also reduce brightness with movies (supposed to compensate for far field mixes in small rooms, although most movies made today seem to already use near field mixing so it could be less bright yet.

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post #409 of 434 Old 01-28-2020, 05:17 PM
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Wonder if I could get some options in placement of my Atmos speaker location. I'll be just running 5.1.2. I can mount them on the side walls or above the couch on the beam facing down almost as they were in ceilings . The pillows represent the mlp. I mounted a Polk quick on the sidewall. Disregard the other polk in the RF waiting on my A2.4s
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post #410 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 06:05 AM
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hi gang

i am wondering if height speakers on top of my entertainment center approx 7 feet high for my atmos sound system would be better then the dolby atmos

enabled upfiring speakers i a currently have on top of my front floor standing speakers ?

my ceiling is slightly vaulted and the left front atmos speaker is between the entertainment center and a wall

while i am enjoying the current sound i want to make sure i am not missing something

thank you

i appreciate it

ps i am a noob at this
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post #411 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 06:33 AM
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hi gang

i am wondering if height speakers on top of my entertainment center approx 7 feet high for my atmos sound system would be better then the dolby atmos

enabled upfiring speakers i a currently have on top of my front floor standing speakers ?
It's hard to say for certain without more information (e.g. How high is the top of your entertainment center?), but as a general rule, height speakers are usually better than unreliable "enabled" speakers.

I'm sure there are some exceptions where the room or setup is perfect for a reflection (e.g. I saw where someone mounted speakers behind their cabinets so direct sound was blocked and only the reflection off the ceiling could get there to the seating that claimed excellent results).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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post #412 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 06:39 AM
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@smith10210 - The beams above seem ideal, but side heights will likely work fine as well (wider image overhead only likely difference with some sounds closer to the wall due to the speaker proximity).

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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post #413 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It's hard to say for certain without more information (e.g. How high is the top of your entertainment center?), but as a general rule, height speakers are usually better than unreliable "enabled" speakers.

I'm sure there are some exceptions where the room or setup is perfect for a reflection (e.g. I saw where someone mounted speakers behind their cabinets so direct sound was blocked and only the reflection off the ceiling could get there to the seating that claimed excellent results).
top of the entertainment center is approx 6 to7 feet . ceiling is approx 9 feet

ceiling is slightly vaulted
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post #414 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 06:48 AM
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also the left tower speaker with the upfiring speaker on top of it is right next to the side of the entertainment center and the outer left wall. wondering if that effects the reflection any

thx
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post #415 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ckoons1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
It's hard to say for certain without more information (e.g. How high is the top of your entertainment center?), but as a general rule, height speakers are usually better than unreliable "enabled" speakers.

I'm sure there are some exceptions where the room or setup is perfect for a reflection (e.g. I saw where someone mounted speakers behind their cabinets so direct sound was blocked and only the reflection off the ceiling could get there to the seating that claimed excellent results).
top of the entertainment center is approx 6 to7 feet . ceiling is approx 9 feet

ceiling is slightly vaulted
That would put the tweeter likely in the 7-8 foot range, similar to my front height speakers. That should be sufficient to reach and likely succeed the 30 degree recommended minimum angle fir that seating distance. I think it would work fine.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
That would put the tweeter likely in the 7-8 foot range, similar to my front height speakers. That should be sufficient to reach and likely succeed the 30 degree recommended minimum angle fir that seating distance. I think it would work fine.
so better then the upfiring speakers i currently have ?


thank you
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post #417 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ckoons1 View Post
so better then the upfiring speakers i currently have ?


thank you
best is ceiling and next is front height
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post #418 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 12:39 PM
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Awesome Thank you
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post #419 of 434 Old 04-18-2020, 07:21 PM
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best is ceiling and next is front height
It's subjective, but I'd say best is front/rear heights + top middle (in rooms that need it to get the phantom imaging solid) so the entire ceiling is used instead of wasting 50% of it with ceiling speakers.

Click THEATER (Updated: Nov-12-2019) for pics: Epson 3100 3D Projector, DaLite 92" screen, 11.1.6 (Marantz SR7012 + Yamaha HTR-5960 + Onkyo ESPro) - Dialog Lift - PSB T45/B15/S50/X1T/CS500 Speakers & Def Tech PF-1500 15" sub; 2nd Room (Updated Apr-22-2019): 48" Plasma TV, Carver AL-III, Carver C-5 Pre-Amp, Technics SH-AC500D, Dual Carver TFM-35x Amps (Active Bi-Amp), Klipsch Surrounds ; Sources: PS4, LG UP875 UHD, Nvidia Shield (KODI), ATV4K, Zidoo X9S, LD, GameCube : Props (Updated 6-22-20)
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post #420 of 434 Old 04-19-2020, 07:32 AM
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since i have the bic america venturi line of speakers. would it be best to get the bic america Dv-62SIB bookshelf speakers for my front height speakers so they match ?
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