Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 376 Old 01-21-2017, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sammie2980 View Post
Without a doubt I agree. I'm just factoring in WAF lol.

Which brought me to the supersat high mounted at an angle.
The SVS Prime Elevation in white should have a pretty high WAF. It's not so much the size of the speaker cabinet, but its shape and finish that determines how well it integrates into a living space.
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post #62 of 376 Old 01-21-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
For anyone still in doubt as to whether Heights work well for Atmos, check out HTG #337 and Scotts comments on the Wolf Cinema demo at CES done with all heights (about 1:07:20), not only did he think it wss very good, later on he puts it in his picks for one of the best sounds at the show.
Seaton showed well with heights at AXPONA or RMAF too.

Do you know of any pics of the Wolf room? I'm curious to see the spacing of the height channels (directly above mains, or?)
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post #63 of 376 Old 01-21-2017, 03:06 PM
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Just throwing this out in case others want to try:

On height speakers, I am using 4 height speakers. I have played around with placement. My rears are about 55 degrees behind me if you face them (so technically, 125 degrees behind I guess.) I have them pointed toward the MLP. My fronts are between 25 to 30 degrees. I have found that leaving them in the same place (about 5 inches below the ceiling) but firing them upward into ceiling about 20 inches out works best. At those low angles, firing them toward the MLP is a weaker effect (I guess less separation with my front 3), while firing them into the ceiling creates more of an overhead sound effect. Also, the highs have about the same frequency response either way (response curve in looks about same either way), so I do not seem to be losing any sound clarity or anything by reflecting them off the ceiling.
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post #64 of 376 Old 02-12-2017, 04:32 PM
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really useful thread this, help me make my final decision about speakers placement, well almost.

My current setup (I have a 7.2 amp) is a standard 5.1 with front left/right, center but I cant have side surrounds as I've got a small room so my surrounds are on the wall right behind my head. Where this isnt ideal it seems to work ok, I just drop the volume a little and it evens it all out.

I decided to use my spare two speaker slots for some ATMOS love but I really, really didnt want to faff about getting wire up to the ceiling and cutting holes. So after reading this thread I thought it try the easiest option first, two height speakers.

My speakers are Mission M3, before you laugh I have a smallish room and they sound great, where I have my Sub placed I also get loads of lovely low end so I'm super happy with their compact package.

I've positioned my height speakers about 3 inches from the celing on the same wall as my fronts, I have also found that If I point them up slighty the sound travels right along the celing and the overhead effect sounds everywhere and not just top front.

I now wish i'd got a 9.2 amp as I can really hear the benefit of the height speakers on the helicopter demo, its just a shame I cant hear it moving back and forth, front to back or round in a circle, just left to right but like some have said, its a massive extra chunk for a 9.2.

My amp is denon AXR2200, vey happy with it.
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post #65 of 376 Old 02-12-2017, 05:28 PM
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Hmm...I'm considering aiming my heights at a slight angle to the ceiling. Currently aiming straight out
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post #66 of 376 Old 02-16-2017, 08:29 AM
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front heights instead of ceiling:

Been using these for a few days now, i've noticed that my front left/right/center negate some of my height specifically on my system as my mission M3's have quite a wide dispersal and I have the center above the TV and so its quite high.

I moved the center below the TV and the left and right lower down and the height was even more pronounced, obviously .
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post #67 of 376 Old 03-18-2017, 11:43 AM
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Ok...someone tell me this plz

7.1 with front heights here...

heights 3foot above fronts...

heights facing direct, not angled to me.

Using atmos 5.1.2 .......... is it better to have the amp setting on front heights OR top front.... cant really tell any difference?
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post #68 of 376 Old 03-18-2017, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
Ok...someone tell me this plz

7.1 with front heights here...

heights 3foot above fronts...

heights facing direct, not angled to me.

Using atmos 5.1.2 .......... is it better to have the amp setting on front heights OR top front.... cant really tell any difference?
If you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter, odds are you have them placed very close to the intersection overlap between the two, so it really won't matter.

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post #69 of 376 Old 03-18-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
If you can't tell the difference, it doesn't matter, odds are you have them placed very close to the intersection overlap between the two, so it really won't matter.
TBF I have only tried it on pseudo atmos yet so may be difference of something like mad max blu ray Il try tmrw.

Basically what Im gettin at is......at what position is it better to use front top instead of front height?
What is the difference anyway with those settings, does it fire out sound better on front top...what is it all about?
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post #70 of 376 Old 03-18-2017, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
TBF I have only tried it on pseudo atmos yet so may be difference of something like mad max blu ray Il try tmrw.

Basically what Im gettin at is......at what position is it better to use front top instead of front height?
What is the difference anyway with those settings, does it fire out sound better on front top...what is it all about?
From experimentation the Top positions have seemed to be more discrete in their movement and placement of sound, but.... This was only tested with 4 overheads, I don't think anyone has tested the difference with only 2.

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post #71 of 376 Old 03-19-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
From experimentation the Top positions have seemed to be more discrete in their movement and placement of sound, but.... This was only tested with 4 overheads, I don't think anyone has tested the difference with only 2.
cool, I defo need to try some experiments.....

I suppose if my speakers are actually in a front height PLIIz position, I should put it on front height and not front top on 5.1.2

Just years of AV make me always play around.....example...I never use audio mic to adjust levels, I use my ears.

Another note, Im not to chuffed with DTS Neural compared to Dolby surround 5.1.2 /5.1.4


Still got to try DTS X on blu ray...

Pseudo so much better on atmos amps....compared to non atmos amps, so worth it all round to upgrade not just for atmos tracks.
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post #72 of 376 Old 03-21-2017, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
cool, I defo need to try some experiments.....

I suppose if my speakers are actually in a front height PLIIz position, I should put it on front height and not front top on 5.1.2

Just years of AV make me always play around.....example...I never use audio mic to adjust levels, I use my ears.

Another note, Im not to chuffed with DTS Neural compared to Dolby surround 5.1.2 /5.1.4


Still got to try DTS X on blu ray...

Pseudo so much better on atmos amps....compared to non atmos amps, so worth it all round to upgrade not just for atmos tracks.
any one else care to input on the front high vs top front sito on a 5.1.2
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post #73 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 06:51 AM
 
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I suppose this is a good time/place to ask...


I am debating some front heights when I upgrade my AVR this year. My "theater" area is in my basement with a drop ceiling that's about 7'6". Im wondering if the ceiling is too low to benefit from height speakers? I have a pair of SM450s Id like to set up once I build some floating shelves for them. The way my seating is laid out they are overkill as surrounds.


Thoughts?
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post #74 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
any one else care to input on the front high vs top front sito on a 5.1.2


Try both than use the one that you like.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
I suppose this is a good time/place to ask...


I am debating some front heights when I upgrade my AVR this year. My "theater" area is in my basement with a drop ceiling that's about 7'6". Im wondering if the ceiling is too low to benefit from height speakers? I have a pair of SM450s Id like to set up once I build some floating shelves for them. The way my seating is laid out they are overkill as surrounds.


Thoughts?


I use Front and Rear Heights in my basement theater with pretty much the same ceiling height,sounds great.


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post #76 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 09:38 AM
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I'm using front and rear height with a Denon X6300. It sounds way better than it did without it and I do have height presence, but if you have the ability to do ceiling speakers, do it.

Height as Atmos is a compromise; a good one, but still a compromise. You don't need to spend crazy amounts of money, Polk Audio RC80i ($75 each) would work great for 99% of people.

If you can, spend the time and do it right.
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post #77 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 09:47 AM
 
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I'm using front and rear height with a Denon X6300. It sounds way better than it did without it and I do have height presence, but if you have the ability to do ceiling speakers, do it.

Height as Atmos is a compromise; a good one, but still a compromise. You don't need to spend crazy amounts of money, Polk Audio RC80i ($75 each) would work great for 99% of people.

If you can, spend the time and do it right.


If I stay in my current home for a few more years Ill end up adding ceiling speakers eventually. Id just rather get my 9.1 operational before I head down that rabbit hole.
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post #78 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 09:48 AM
 
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I use Front and Rear Heights in my basement theater with pretty much the same ceiling height,sounds great.


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All the confirmation I needed. How far from the ceiling are you...? Id imagine you don't want to be too close...Perhaps 18" from the ceiling tiles? Or should I split the difference between the ceiling and the top of my towers?
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post #79 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 10:12 AM
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All the confirmation I needed. How far from the ceiling are you...? Id imagine you don't want to be too close...Perhaps 18" from the ceiling tiles? Or should I split the difference between the ceiling and the top of my towers?
I have a low ceiling and there's a soffit over half the left half of my room so I couldn't do ceiling speakers. Further, because of that soffit I had to push my front and rear heights out further than recommended.

I'd put the height speakers as high on the wall as you can, after all, they *should* in the ceiling.



Side note: If you really have ceiling tiles in your home theater room, you have no excuse.
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post #80 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 10:13 AM
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All the confirmation I needed. How far from the ceiling are you...? Id imagine you don't want to be too close...Perhaps 18" from the ceiling tiles? Or should I split the difference between the ceiling and the top of my towers?


Mine are mounted where the ceiling and wall meet,but they are on brackets so I can aim them exactly as needed. I have a sheetrock ceiling. Figure out what you want to spend and if you want to cut holes in your ceiling,I could've put them in the ceiling but I like the ability to aim and position my speakers just right for me. What Happens if you move the seating? Like I said these are my preferences. I like Pro type gear in my room so in ceiling speakers are not going to cut it for me.


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I use front/rear heights, and have assigned the speaker channels as such on the AVR, since I want to maintain compatibility between Atmos/DTS:X/Auro.
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Mine are mounted where the ceiling and wall meet,but they are on brackets so I can aim them exactly as needed. I have a sheetrock ceiling. Figure out what you want to spend and if you want to cut holes in your ceiling,I could've put them in the ceiling but I like the ability to aim and position my speakers just right for me. What Happens if you move the seating? Like I said these are my preferences. I like Pro type gear in my room so in ceiling speakers are not going to cut it for me.


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Im with you. Id like to be able to aim the speakers somewhat. I am on the verge of buying new seating so I don't want to commit ceiling speakers to a certain spot just yet...


In theory, are front heights supposed to be above your front channels or wider? I feel like that may be a case by case basis depending on room size/shape/personal preference.
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This is how I run my front heights

I have them assigned as such as well. Also didn't aim them towards mlp as they tended to blend/combine with my mains. Keeping them aiming straight out and with no toe in I notice more separation between the heights/mains.
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This is how I run my front heights

I have them assigned as such as well. Also didn't aim them towards mlp as they tended to blend/combine with my mains. Keeping them aiming straight out and with no toe in I notice more separation between the heights/mains.


Nicely done, you have a lot of gear crammed in there...


I see you in the DT threads, would your front height speaker mounts hold a SM 450??
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post #85 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
Im with you. Id like to be able to aim the speakers somewhat. I am on the verge of buying new seating so I don't want to commit ceiling speakers to a certain spot just yet...


In theory, are front heights supposed to be above your front channels or wider? I feel like that may be a case by case basis depending on room size/shape/personal preference.


I would say above your mainstream least a few feet and if you can just on the outside edge of them. It all depends on the room you have to work with. Mine are directly above my mains at the ceiling/wall Junction,I had no room to go any wider,but the sound is great.


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post #86 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 12:45 PM
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Nicely done, you have a lot of gear crammed in there...


I see you in the DT threads, would your front height speaker mounts hold a SM 450??
Thanks, yes definitely a lot crammed into my living room. There's also another PSA sub, surrounds and rear surrounds lol
Currently my speaker mounts are easily holding my Volt 6's(that I redid to look like mini PSA'S) so they should no doubt hold those DT's.
Here's a close up picture
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post #87 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
The "above" is decent, not as good as in ceiling, but still definitely above, the "above and around" movement is excellent. The helicopter demo, while not directly overhead, is still extremely good, just like your being circled from above.

IMO, the reason it works so well is because of how Atmos actually works, it's not just sound out of one speaker at a time, but multiple speakers at the same time placing sounds where speakers aren't, which many times incorporates the ear level layer as well as multiple tops.
This is why the approved positions are so important, having speakers where the renderer thinks they are, allows for more accurate sound placement, for example a sound directly overhead, even with only height speakers, can still be placed there by using all 4 height speakers at the same time, using proper phase and distance calculations.

While this is lessened if you opt for surround heights, labeled as Top Middles, it is also still pretty good, compared to Top Middles with upfiring surround modules.

Honestly, IMO, unless you've done considerable listening to an in-ceiling system, you'll never know that a good height system is lacking at all.
If your receiver supports multiple overhead positions (for example, my Marantz SR6011 supports front/rear height and Atmos Front/Middle/Rear overhead positions), You just have to tell it where your speakers are and make sure to position them based on the instruction manual for your receiver. It's also very important to aim the speakers directly at the listening position. Even an Atmos setup that utilizes front/rear heights will be able to localize sound directly overhead so long as the speakers are aimed at you.

I tell you this based on my personal experience. It was a stretch when I updated my 7.1 system to 7.1.2. My very understanding fiance was wondering why we needed ANOTHER pair of speakers. It was part of my plan to ultimately upgrade to 7.1.4. Of course, I knew I'd never get away with another pair of speakers so I explored my options. My setup is basically a 130" acoustically transparent screen flanked by floor-to-ceiling and wall-to-wall black curtains. All three of my front speakers are behind the screen and curtains. I ended up testing out front heights (also behind the curtain -- and conveniently out of sight) instead of another set of overheads. HUGE difference. It adds so much more depth and dimension than what I had with my 7.1.2 (which was also pretty amazing). So, in a nutshell, my Marantz SR6011 is driving my 7.1.4 setup composed of your standard 7.1 base layer and four overheads (two front heights and two top-rears mounted on the ceiling -- all four pointed directly at the listening position)
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post #88 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
Nicely done, you have a lot of gear crammed in there...


I see you in the DT threads, would your front height speaker mounts hold a SM 450??
From one of your earlier questions...
They should be directly above your Fronts and I'd place them as high as you can to get the best separation Between the ear level and upper layers.

Don't worry about shelves if you don't have to, e-mail Chet and have him send you some keyhole mounts, that's what I use.

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post #89 of 376 Old 03-22-2017, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by efernandezjr View Post
If your receiver supports multiple overhead positions (for example, my Marantz SR6011 supports front/rear height and Atmos Front/Middle/Rear overhead positions), You just have to tell it where your speakers are and make sure to position them based on the instruction manual for your receiver. It's also very important to aim the speakers directly at the listening position. Even an Atmos setup that utilizes front/rear heights will be able to localize sound directly overhead so long as the speakers are aimed at you.

I tell you this based on my personal experience. It was a stretch when I updated my 7.1 system to 7.1.2. My very understanding fiance was wondering why we needed ANOTHER pair of speakers. It was part of my plan to ultimately upgrade to 7.1.4. Of course, I knew I'd never get away with another pair of speakers so I explored my options. My setup is basically a 130" acoustically transparent screen flanked by floor-to-ceiling and wall-to-wall black curtains. All three of my front speakers are behind the screen and curtains. I ended up testing out front heights (also behind the curtain -- and conveniently out of sight) instead of another set of overheads. HUGE difference. It adds so much more depth and dimension than what I had with my 7.1.2 (which was also pretty amazing). So, in a nutshell, my Marantz SR6011 is driving my 7.1.4 setup composed of your standard 7.1 base layer and four overheads (two front heights and two top-rears mounted on the ceiling -- all four pointed directly at the listening position)
The reason I don't aim mine at the MLP is two fold:
- Since I'm using only Heights, I like the tweeter first reflection point to be slightly farther out on the ceiling (not way out) to help with the illusion that the sound is farther away from the wall and out in the room more. (But this could also be why my system sounds better to me, set as TF/TR instead of FH/RH)
- Since moving sounds around the room requires the blending of multiple speakers, I don't want one of those to be out of spec (spec is straight out) and possibly throw off the accuracy of the positioning by the renderer by having that one speaker in a group or pairing be more prominent than the others that are positioned correctly, to me this works the same way with actual in-ceiling speakers that also aren't supposed to be aimed.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 03-23-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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post #90 of 376 Old 03-23-2017, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
From one of your earlier questions...
They should be directly above your Fronts and I'd place them as high as you can to get the best separation Between the ear level and upper layers.

Don't worry about shelves if you don't have to, e-mail Chet and have him send you some keyhole mounts, that's what I use.


That's SOOOO much speaker to be hanging off one screw though...Don't you ever get nervous?
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