Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 375 Old 03-23-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
That's SOOOO much speaker to be hanging off one screw though...Don't you ever get nervous?
Nope, I built my own brackets.

They use two 2½" screws that go into the top plate of the wall frame, but any decent sized wood screw that went 2" or more into a stud would be just fine, esp when you consider the size of the screws they use to mount the keyhole bracket to the speaker.

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post #92 of 375 Old 03-24-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Nope, I built my own brackets.

They use two 2½" screws that go into the top plate of the wall frame, but any decent sized wood screw that went 2" or more into a stud would be just fine, esp when you consider the size of the screws they use to mount the keyhole bracket to the speaker.
Now we are getting somewhere, this thread was dead for a bit...

Ok so my issue is im doing all my shiz in my small bedroom!

I just about got 5.1.2 in here with the heights 3.5 feet above front mains, got no chance of rear heights or ceiling speakers...thats a 0% chance.

Most ppl will not be cutting holes in their ceiling so thats why I use front heights as my atmos....dam sounds so much better than 7.1 PLIIz which was good tbf.

So shall I continue to keep my config on amp as 5.1.2 with the setting on front height and not top front then.
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post #93 of 375 Old 03-24-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Uktima View Post



So shall I continue to keep my config on amp as 5.1.2 with the setting on front height and not top front then.
I use The Heights option in my Theater,sounds great to me,I would sad you ttyl both and use the one that sounds best to you.

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post #94 of 375 Old 03-24-2017, 04:42 PM
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I use The Heights option in my Theater,sounds great to me,I would sad you ttyl both and use the one that sounds best to you.
slight diff in front height, seems more direct and less dispersed then front top....

Have to say....even if its not atmos or dts x...its worth getting a decent atmos amp as even 2 channels pcm input up-scaled to dolby surround 5.1.2 / 5.1.4 is amazing.

The sharpest upscale is dolby 5.1 input to 5.1.2 /5.1.4 just sounds so much better.

OBV atmos is omg sito. I played san andreas blu ray... what the F word....
Im in middle england here, putting anything in the ceiling would mean bye bye whole AV so have to wait but just amazing leap in sound this atmos.....
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post #95 of 375 Old 03-24-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
slight diff in front height, seems more direct and less dispersed then front top....



Have to say....even if its not atmos or dts x...its worth getting a decent atmos amp as even 2 channels pcm input up-scaled to dolby surround 5.1.2 / 5.1.4 is amazing.



The sharpest upscale is dolby 5.1 input to 5.1.2 /5.1.4 just sounds so much better.



OBV atmos is omg sito. I played san andreas blu ray... what the F word....

Im in middle england here, putting anything in the ceiling would mean bye bye whole AV so have to wait but just amazing leap in sound this atmos.....


Definitely well worth the upgrade to me also,I use separate power amps for all of my channels,I learned Years ago that receivers can't compete with separate processors and separate Amps.


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post #96 of 375 Old 03-24-2017, 06:24 PM
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Definitely well worth the upgrade to me also,I use separate power amps for all of my channels,I learned Years ago that receivers can't compete with separate processors and separate Amps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ive just had a look at what you have.... Dude thats some serious ship to say the least.


I always fail to understand the people whom dont appreciate a good surround system.

Someone I know has spent like £6000 on one amp and 2 speakers....now I understand the pure stereo sito but you cannot touch a good atoms set up or even solid 5.1 IMO unless it music only.
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post #97 of 375 Old 03-28-2017, 03:56 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Uktima View Post
Ive just had a look at what you have.... Dude thats some serious ship to say the least.


I always fail to understand the people whom dont appreciate a good surround system.

Someone I know has spent like £6000 on one amp and 2 speakers....now I understand the pure stereo sito but you cannot touch a good atoms set up or even solid 5.1 IMO unless it music only.
+1 to that. I have friends that don't understand why I have "so many speakers"...Until they come over for movie night.

Im about 90% sure Ill be grabbing a X4300H here soon. Who else has one of these and can chime in on ATMOS/height set up? I am interested in rear heights after doing some reading am curious as to how that is set up.

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post #98 of 375 Old 03-31-2017, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
Who else has one of these and can chime in on ATMOS/height set up? I am interested in rear heights after doing some reading am curious as to how that is set up.
My Denon X6300 asks if I'm using height or ceiling speakers in the setup. I chose height but I'm pretty certain they would get the same signal either way. I have a low ceiling and there's a soffit over half the left half of my room so I couldn't do ceiling speakers. Further, because of that soffit I had to push my front and rear heights out further than recommended. I'd put the height speakers as high on the wall as you can, after all, they *should* in the ceiling.

Audyssey has yet to make an official front/rear height ATMOS speaker placement graphic so I made my own based on combining some different configuration options they had:



Side note: If you can do ceiling speakers, do it. Front/Rear height work very well, but there really isn't a perfect replacement to actual ceiling speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ology View Post
Have a question on what speakers to add to my 9.1 In-ceiling speakers and where to put them behind or in front listening area, or RH? I have 9.1 with FH and want to go to 11.2. Also would it sound funny if I have 2 as FH and add 2 in-ceiling.
Having Front Height and Rear or Middle Overhead would be fine, but if you can do ceiling speakers, I'd strongly suggest doing front/rear overhead and removing your front height.

When looking at any upgrade you need to keep in mind where you want to be in the future and plan for that final configuration.

Atmos speakers can be:

Front Overhead
Middle Overhead
Rear Overhead

Whatever your current configuration, the end goal is this:



Any step you take, make sure the end result is on that graphic.

Dolby 7.1.6 Speaker Guide

Last edited by Dreamliner; 08-02-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
My Denon X6300 asks if I'm using height or ceiling speakers in the setup. I chose height but I'm pretty certain they would get the same signal either way. I have a low ceiling and there's a soffit over half the left half of my room so I couldn't do ceiling speakers. Further, because of that soffit I had to push my front and rear heights out further than recommended. I'd put the height speakers as high on the wall as you can, after all, they *should* in the ceiling.

Audyssey has yet to make an official front/rear height ATMOS speaker placement graphic so I made my own based on combining some different configuration options they had:



Side note: If you can do ceiling speakers, do it. Front/Rear height work very well, but there really isn't a perfect replacement to actual ceiling speakers.


Gotcha...I guess Ill have to make the purchase and then just dive into things during the set up. So many things, so little time and $.


Thanks for the reply.
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post #100 of 375 Old 04-01-2017, 10:52 PM
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Have a question on what speakers to add to my 9.1 In-ceiling speakers and where to put them behind or in front listening area, or RH? I have 9.1 with FH and want to go to 11.2. Also would it sound funny if I have 2 as FH and add 2 in-ceiling.
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post #101 of 375 Old 04-02-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ology View Post
Have a question on what speakers to add to my 9.1 In-ceiling speakers and where to put them behind or in front listening area, or RH? I have 9.1 with FH and want to go to 11.2. Also would it sound funny if I have 2 as FH and add 2 in-ceiling.
Having Front Height and Rear or Middle Overhead would be fine, but if you can do ceiling speakers, I'd strongly suggest doing front/rear overhead and removing your front height.

When looking at any upgrade you need to keep in mind where you want to be in the future and plan for that final configuration.

Atmos speakers can be:

Front Overhead
Middle Overhead
Rear Overhead

Whatever your current configuration, the end goal is this:



Any step you take, make sure the end result is on that graphic.

Dolby 7.1.6 Speaker Guide

Last edited by Dreamliner; 04-02-2017 at 11:46 AM.
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post #102 of 375 Old 04-02-2017, 03:34 PM
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So If I decided to keep the FH. Would you recommend the rear in-ceiling or the RH? If the rear ceiling would I do the #8 or #9 position on the chart above. Also would the sound be off if they are in the ceiling for the rears as apposed to the walls.
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post #103 of 375 Old 04-04-2017, 05:46 PM
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Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ology View Post
So If I decided to keep the FH. Would you recommend the rear in-ceiling or the RH? If the rear ceiling would I do the #8 or #9 position on the chart above. Also would the sound be off if they are in the ceiling for the rears as apposed to the walls.
Optimal is 4 ceiling speakers at 7 & 9.

I'd suggest putting 2 in position 9. If anything, you will like the ceiling speaker effects much better and will buy 2 more and put them in position 7.

These are just effects speakers. You don't need to go crazy. Polk RC80i's are only $150/pair and will sound great. That's why I suggest doing 4, it's cheap.
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post #104 of 375 Old 04-05-2017, 05:47 PM
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Optimal is 4 ceiling speakers at 7 & 9.

I'd suggest putting 2 in position 9. If anything, you will like the ceiling speaker effects much better and will buy 2 more and put them in position 7.

These are just effects speakers. You don't need to go crazy. Polk RC80i's are only $150/pair and will sound great. That's why I suggest doing 4, it's cheap.
Agree....

7.1.4

dont go over board on ceiling speakers....seen people in england spending like £500 pair on em....no point IMO unless your set up is like £10000 lol

usual 5.1 or 5.2

then front top with rear top

remember, u can always adjust the frequencies and volume of the tops accordingly.
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post #105 of 375 Old 05-04-2017, 12:36 PM
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Decided to toe in my heights(Volt 6's) and I think I'm actually liking it more than them aiming straight out.
Wondering if I have to re run audyssey now though. Really like to avoid that if possible lol
Think it'll be fine though.
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post #106 of 375 Old 05-10-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
The reason I don't aim mine at the MLP is two fold:
- Since I'm using only Heights, I like the tweeter first reflection point to be slightly farther out on the ceiling (not way out) to help with the illusion that the sound is farther away from the wall and out in the room more. (But this could also be why my system sounds better to me, set as TF/TR instead of FH/RH)
- Since moving sounds around the room requires the blending of multiple speakers, I don't want one of those to be out of spec (spec is straight out) and possibly throw off the accuracy of the positioning by the renderer by having that one speaker in a group or pairing be more prominent than the others that are positioned correctly, to me this works the same way with actual in-ceiling speakers that also aren't supposed to be aimed.
ALtlOff,
You seem appear to be a proponent of heights for atmos and wanted your thoughts on a proposed setup. I currently have in wall front heights (polk rc55i) with aimable tweeters and surrounds mounted on rear wall also relatively high. The in wall heights used to be main L/R and installed high for aesthetic reasons which is why the wall mounted rears are also high. The rears are polk owm3 which are curved. Right now they are mounted upside down so tweeter is aimed down. Both front heights and rear surrounds are about 6.5 ft off ground with 8 ft ceilings. MLP is about 16ft from front heights. Rears are about 7 ft behind and 4-7ft off to sides. Would like to re purpose front in wall heights and rear wall mounted surrounds as 4 atmos heights. Would then get stand mounted surrounds and place in rear corners under what would become rear heights. Can't do side surrounds in my room. Would get a Denon X4300 to handle the setup. So you think that would work? Would 6.5 ft be high enough for the front and rear heights? How would you aim the tweeters on the in wall fronts and position the curved face rear on-walls? What would you suggest as the height for the new surround satellites on stands? The linked thread below, which is a similar question, has pics of the room. Thanks for your input.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...mos-setup.html

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post #107 of 375 Old 05-10-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
ALtlOff,
You seem appear to be a proponent of heights for atmos and wanted your thoughts on a proposed setup. I currently have in wall front heights (polk rc55i) with aimable tweeters and surrounds mounted on rear wall also relatively high. The in wall heights used to be main L/R and installed high for aesthetic reasons which is why the wall mounted rears are also high. The rears are polk owm3 which are curved. Right now they are mounted upside down so tweeter is aimed down. Both front heights and rear surrounds are about 6.5 ft off ground with 8 ft ceilings. MLP is about 16ft from front heights. Rears are about 7 ft behind and 4-7ft off to sides. Would like to re purpose front in wall heights and rear wall mounted surrounds as 4 atmos heights. Would then get stand mounted surrounds and place in rear corners under what would become rear heights. Can't do side surrounds in my room. Would get a Denon X4300 to handle the setup. So you think that would work? Would 6.5 ft be high enough for the front and rear heights? How would you aim the tweeters on the in wall fronts and position the curved face rear on-walls? What would you suggest as the height for the new surround satellites on stands? The linked thread below, which is a similar question, has pics of the room. Thanks for your input.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...mos-setup.html
While 6.5' isn't really high enough to give you decent separation between the layers, the aimable tweeters and flipping them so that the tweeter is high and can be aimed upward may be your saving grace, it's at least worth some experimentation.
And while you could certainly try and raise the Rear Heights, I'm thinking consistent height with the Front Heights may actually be a better choice in your situation.

Also because of this I'd keep the surrounds as close to seated ear height as possible, just to have them as low as possible, without going to low, to help with separation.

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post #108 of 375 Old 05-10-2017, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
While 6.5' isn't really high enough to give you decent separation between the layers, the aimable tweeters and flipping them so that the tweeter is high and can be aimed upward may be your saving grace, it's at least worth some experimentation.
And while you could certainly try and raise the Rear Heights, I'm thinking consistent height with the Front Heights may actually be a better choice in your situation.

Also because of this I'd keep the surrounds as close to seated ear height as possible, just to have them as low as possible, without going to low, to help with separation.
Thanks, really appreciate the input. Need to think about this. It's a bit of a risk if it doesn't work well as the Denon X4300 (minimum to get 4 atmos) is no cheap AVR. As you may already know SVS pushes their prime elevation speakers for atmos heights but clearly they are designed to be direct radiating, aimed toward the MLP. Are you recommending aiming tweeters at ceiling for reflection downwards primarily to give the effect of better layer separation in this particular situation or you recommend that even if they were mounted at ceiling height? In your proposed upward aimed tweeters what type of speakers do you tell AVR you have?

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post #109 of 375 Old 05-11-2017, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by confinoj View Post
Thanks, really appreciate the input. Need to think about this. It's a bit of a risk if it doesn't work well as the Denon X4300 (minimum to get 4 atmos) is no cheap AVR. As you may already know SVS pushes their prime elevation speakers for atmos heights but clearly they are designed to be direct radiating, aimed toward the MLP. Are you recommending aiming tweeters at ceiling for reflection downwards primarily to give the effect of better layer separation in this particular situation or you recommend that even if they were mounted at ceiling height? In your proposed upward aimed tweeters what type of speakers do you tell AVR you have?
As far as the tweeters, I'm thinking that the "ability" to aim them up, (plus having them higher in general) is a better option since they're are not right up against the ceiling.
You'd set them as Front Heights.

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post #110 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 03:19 PM
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Just wanted to chime in and ask a question. I recently got a Marantz SR-6011 and after a long time of having to switch between PLIIz with my front heights and 7.1 for the rear heights (using a Pioneer VSX-44 7.2ch AVR before), I can finally have real Atmos. My setup is 5.2.4 with the atmos speakers being front and rear heights. Pics in sig if interested. Anyways, I'm loving it both during Atmos and matrixed Dolby surround.

I have my heights all angled and facing my MLP. I believe this is recommended.

My first question is whether I should upgrade those heights or not. They are currently cheaper Polk T15s. They are considerably lower SQ speakers then my main 5.2. My 5.2 speakers are B&W for the Fronts, Center, and Surrounds and Rythmik FV15HP for subs. His important is it for the heights (Atmos speakers) to be higher SQ speakers?

Second question, can someone link me to where Dolby says front/rear heights are an approved Atmos config. I figure it is since my SR-6011 had it as configurable.

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post #111 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:03 PM
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Just wanted to chime in and ask a question. I recently got a Marantz SR-6011 and after a long time of having to switch between PLIIz with my front heights and 7.1 for the rear heights (using a Pioneer VSX-44 7.2ch AVR before), I can finally have real Atmos. My setup is 5.2.4 with the atmos speakers being front and rear heights. Pics in sig if interested. Anyways, I'm loving it both during Atmos and matrixed Dolby surround.

I have my heights all angled and facing my MLP. I believe this is recommended.

My first question is whether I should upgrade those heights or not. They are currently cheaper Polk T15s. They are considerably lower SQ speakers then my main 5.2. My 5.2 speakers are B&W for the Fronts, Center, and Surrounds and Rythmik FV15HP for subs. His important is it for the heights (Atmos speakers) to be higher SQ speakers?

Second question, can someone link me to where Dolby says front/rear heights are an approved Atmos config. I figure it is since my SR-6011 had it as configurable.
Couple of things:
-Actually they shouldn't be aimed at the MLP, the algorithm for the formats is designed to use multiple speakers at the same time in order to attempt place sounds where speakers aren't, therefore having individual speakers stand out by aiming them at you may throw off the effect.

-I personally feel like Height or Overhead speakers should be treated as any other surrounds when it comes to sound quality, just to keep sound as seamless as you can. If you're swapping them in stages, do the fronts first.

-I don't have the link, but most of the diagrams will actually show the Front and Rear Heights still as in-ceilings, this is another reason not to aim speakers at you. Remember, positioning has more to do with angles than anything, as long as the proper angles are achieved for those labels, the accuracy should be there, Heights or In-ceiling, In-ceiling will just give you better "direct overhead" effects instead of "above you" effect.

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post #112 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Couple of things:

-Actually they shouldn't be aimed at the MLP, the algorithm for the formats is designed to use multiple speakers at the same time in order to attempt place sounds where speakers aren't, therefore having individual speakers stand out by aiming them at you may throw off the effect.



-I personally feel like Height or Overhead speakers should be treated as any other surrounds when it comes to sound quality, just to keep sound as seamless as you can. If you're swapping them in stages, do the fronts first.



-I don't have the link, but most of the diagrams will actually show the Front and Rear Heights still as in-ceilings, this is another reason not to aim speakers at you. Remember, positioning has more to do with angles than anything, as long as the proper angles are achieved for those labels, the accuracy should be there, Heights or In-ceiling, In-ceiling will just give you better "direct overhead" effects instead of "above you" effect.


Thanks for the reply. I've been told by various folks to aim the front and rear heights at MLP and not to "according to the Dolby Spec". I've never seen a spec saying either that came from Dolby though so I would love to see. The only thing I have to go off of is the photo from the Marantz setup screen in which the heights are aimed towards the listening area. Arguable, the MLP

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| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #113 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:17 PM
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...My first question is whether I should upgrade those heights or not. They are currently cheaper Polk T15s. They are considerably lower SQ speakers then my main 5.2. My 5.2 speakers are B&W for the Fronts, Center, and Surrounds and Rythmik FV15HP for subs. His important is it for the heights (Atmos speakers) to be higher SQ speakers?

...
I used to think that you can use almost anything for surrounds/rears/heights etc. Then I upgraded my surrounds from T15s to NHT SuperZeros. I no longer think that you can use anything. The T15 is just really, really poor and you're definitely losing out on some detail.
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post #114 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:24 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I've been told by various folks to aim the front and rear heights at MLP and not to "according to the Dolby Spec". I've never seen a spec saying either that came from Dolby though so I would love to see. The only thing I have to go off of is the photo from the Marantz setup screen in which the heights are aimed towards the listening area. Arguable, the MLP

Well going by that photo, the front heights are actually slightly pointing away from the MLP, deffo not at the MLP, front heights are actually meant to point straight ahead, to fill up height from front to rear.
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post #115 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:39 PM
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I used to think that you can use almost anything for surrounds/rears/heights etc. Then I upgraded my surrounds from T15s to NHT SuperZeros. I no longer think that you can use anything. The T15 is just really, really poor and you're definitely losing out on some detail.


These? NHT SuperZero 2.1 Mini-Monitor Speaker (Single, Gloss Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CKNOYWK..._bOjnzb3YJ87GH

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #116 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:40 PM
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These? NHT SuperZero 2.1 Mini-Monitor Speaker (Single, Gloss Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CKNOYWK..._bOjnzb3YJ87GH
Yup.
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post #117 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:41 PM
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Yup.


They're not outrageously expensive. Maybe I'll get 4 of them. How do they compare to the T15s in size?

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #118 of 375 Old 06-04-2017, 04:44 PM
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They're not outrageously expensive. Maybe I'll get 4 of them. How do they compare to the T15s in size?
They're a bit smaller than the T15s.
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post #119 of 375 Old 06-15-2017, 09:08 AM
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I asked a question relevant to this in the Marantz SR-6011 Thread here.

Basically I am unsure if having my speakers as they are and configured in my AVR as they are, whether I am getting the atmos channel info sent to the front and rear heights or if the AVR is doing something else since they aren't technically upward firing or in ceiling atmos speakers. Anyone here know?

| 7.2.4 Photos (Updated Photos 1/5) | Frequency Response | Visual: LG 65” B7A OLED | Elite VMAX-2 Electric 120" | Optoma GT1080 Proj |
| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #120 of 375 Old 06-15-2017, 09:18 AM
 
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I have a fairly deep bi-polar speaker that sits about 2 feet from the wall. The distance away from the wall plus the depth of my cabinet will put my front heights a couple feet deeper from MLP than my L/C/R speakers.

Is this something the AVR's room calibration can account for? Or will I be doing more harm than good adding height speakers?
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