Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers? - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #121 of 369 Old 06-15-2017, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by citsur86 View Post
I asked a question relevant to this in the Marantz SR-6011 Thread here.

Basically I am unsure if having my speakers as they are and configured in my AVR as they are, whether I am getting the atmos channel info sent to the front and rear heights or if the AVR is doing something else since they aren't technically upward firing or in ceiling atmos speakers. Anyone here know?
The AVR doesn't know where your speakers are, it just knows what you have told it, if you've set them to TF/TR them that's the signal they are getting, no matter where you've placed them. Correct Placement is simply for accuracy when sounds are panning or placed in one specific location.

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post #122 of 369 Old 06-15-2017, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Gonzilla13 View Post
I have a fairly deep bi-polar speaker that sits about 2 feet from the wall. The distance away from the wall plus the depth of my cabinet will put my front heights a couple feet deeper from MLP than my L/C/R speakers.

Is this something the AVR's room calibration can account for? Or will I be doing more harm than good adding height speakers?
Room correction can absolutely correct for this, remember, one of the main reason for distance measurements is to simply set delays so that the sounds arrive at a specific location when they should in correlating to what's happening in the video, a few feet is no issue at all.
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post #123 of 369 Old 06-16-2017, 04:08 AM
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When my yamaha does its YAPO setup, i notice that it does not set all the distances exactly as if i had measured them myself, is that because of my room acoustics ? and the distances take that into consideration ? or after auto setup should i then manually adjust the distances ? but i guess that might then mess up the YAPO settings.
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post #124 of 369 Old 06-16-2017, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Daytraders View Post
When my yamaha does its YAPO setup, i notice that it does not set all the distances exactly as if i had measured them myself, is that because of my room acoustics ? and the distances take that into consideration ? or after auto setup should i then manually adjust the distances ? but i guess that might then mess up the YAPO settings.
Normally yes, it's setting the distances for what the microphone is hearing, and room acoustics/reflections play a big part.
I'd leave them alone.
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post #125 of 369 Old 06-16-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Normally yes, it's setting the distances for what the microphone is hearing, and room acoustics/reflections play a big part.
I'd leave them alone.
Yeh, it does sound great still, will leave it alone then, cheers
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post #126 of 369 Old 08-11-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
The helicopter demo, while not directly overhead, is still extremely good, just like your being circled from above.
Which demo is this?
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post #127 of 369 Old 08-11-2017, 11:47 AM
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Which demo is this?
ergalthema, 2015/2016 Atmos Demo disc.
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post #128 of 369 Old 08-30-2017, 03:05 AM
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Hi,
I got a 5.1.2 setup, got rear heights as fronts is not possible, also my avr only supports 2 atmos channels. I got a high ceiling which is around 12 feet, do i have to face the rear height speakers towards the listening position?
also are only rear heights good enough for atmos or should i remove the heights & go for dolby atmos modules that u place on top of the front speakers? which will give me a more better atmos soundstage rear height speakers or the upfiring atmos speakers?
please share your inputs.

Thanks..
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post #129 of 369 Old 08-30-2017, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by blackspider View Post
Hi,
I got a 5.1.2 setup, got rear heights as fronts is not possible, also my avr only supports 2 atmos channels. I got a high ceiling which is around 12 feet, do i have to face the rear height speakers towards the listening position?
also are only rear heights good enough for atmos or should i remove the heights & go for dolby atmos modules that u place on top of the front speakers? which will give me a more better atmos soundstage rear height speakers or the upfiring atmos speakers?
please share your inputs.

Thanks..
This is going to depend and some clarification is needed.
-12' Flat or Cathedral ceiling
-Which speakers?
-Actual room layout, with speaker, furniture and wall locations, preferably a diagram.

This will allow us to give you the best help.

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post #130 of 369 Old 08-30-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
Thank you kind sir, easy enough to do so I'll go with that
I'm also a Def Tech person with BP 2004TL front, CLR 2300 center, BP-2X surrounds and BP-1X rears. I have many extra ProCinema 60 speakers that I would like to use for Dolby Atmos where the front and rear walls meet the ceiling. They would be angled downward like the SVS Prime Elevation speakers.

Would this work?

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post #131 of 369 Old 08-30-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by iraweiss View Post
I'm also a Def Tech person with BP 2004TL front, CLR 2300 center, BP-2X surrounds and BP-1X rears. I have many extra ProCinema 60 speakers that I would like to use for Dolby Atmos where the front and rear walls meet the ceiling. They would be angled downward like the SVS Prime Elevation speakers.

Would this work?
Should be no problem, don't get caught up in angling them though, straight outis actually recommended, but whatever works easiest will work fine.

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post #132 of 369 Old 09-03-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Should be no problem, don't get caught up in angling them though, straight outis actually recommended, but whatever works easiest will work fine.
Hi,
I have got 5.1.2 setup and my receiver is Denon AVR-S730H.
i have installed the front height speakers 6 inch below the ceiling(10 feet) and slightly angle down to MLP.
My Denon receiver has the following Amp Assign selection for Speakers setup, Dolby Front, Front Height & Top Front.
Which Amp Assign is recommended for better Dolby ATMOS/DTS:X sound?
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post #133 of 369 Old 09-03-2017, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by amdar View Post
Hi,
I have got 5.1.2 setup and my receiver is Denon AVR-S730H.
i have installed the front height speakers 6 inch below the ceiling(10 feet) and slightly angle down to MLP.
My Denon receiver has the following Amp Assign selection for Speakers setup, Dolby Front, Front Height & Top Front.
Which Amp Assign is recommended for better Dolby ATMOS/DTS:X sound?
Most likely Front Height, it depends on the angle from your MLP to the speaker.it won't hurt to experiment with the Top Front assignment, use wheat you think sounds best to you.
Dolby Front or Dolby Enabled Front are for upfiring speakers or modules only and has special crossovers and delays and phasing.

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post #134 of 369 Old 09-03-2017, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Most likely Front Height, it depends on the angle from your MLP to the speaker.it won't hurt to experiment with the Top Front assignment, use wheat you think sounds best to you.
Dolby Front or Dolby Enabled Front are for upfiring speakers or modules only and has special crossovers and delays and phasing.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will experiment both assignment.
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post #135 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 10:34 AM
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I got through about 7 pages of this thread and got a bit lost in regard to Front Height vs Overhead. I have a Pioneer VSX-1124-K AVR. I currently have a 7.2 setup and would like to add overhead speakers. Essentially making it a 7.2.2 or is it 9.2? Confused there too! The AVR supports Atmos. Will the Front Height Speakers function better positioned as Overhead Speakers? The room is 22x16x9. Is there a difference in how the sound in an Atmos enviroment is processed from the front compared to overhead? I read a lot of opinions of how each persons system functioned well for them. Merely looking at this from a technical standpoint. Are height channels essentially the same as overhead in an Atmos environment with better placement.
Thanks in advance for shedding "sound" on this.
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post #136 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tampastan View Post
I got through about 7 pages of this thread and got a bit lost in regard to Front Height vs Overhead. I have a Pioneer VSX-1124-K AVR. I currently have a 7.2 setup and would like to add overhead speakers. Essentially making it a 7.2.2 or is it 9.2? Confused there too! The AVR supports Atmos. Will the Front Height Speakers function better positioned as Overhead Speakers? The room is 22x16x9. Is there a difference in how the sound in an Atmos enviroment is processed from the front compared to overhead? I read a lot of opinions of how each persons system functioned well for them. Merely looking at this from a technical standpoint. Are height channels essentially the same as overhead in an Atmos environment with better placement.
Thanks in advance for shedding "sound" on this.
At a glance, your receiver is listed as 7.2 - so that means you probably can't do more than that. For height, you could do something like 5.2.2. (I'm not 100% sure about your receiver, but I'm pretty sure it can't do more than 7 speakers and 2 subs.)

As for preferred placement, I think you will get a lot of opinions. I enjoyed adding two front height speakers, but would probably prefer speakers in the ceiling firing down. I'm going to try moving the front heights to the sides near the ceiling, but I'll have to get smaller speakers with mounts first.
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post #137 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ergalthema View Post
At a glance, your receiver is listed as 7.2 - so that means you probably can't do more than that. For height, you could do something like 5.2.2. (I'm not 100% sure about your receiver, but I'm pretty sure it can't do more than 7 speakers and 2 subs.)

As for preferred placement, I think you will get a lot of opinions. I enjoyed adding two front height speakers, but would probably prefer speakers in the ceiling firing down. I'm going to try moving the front heights to the sides near the ceiling, but I'll have to get smaller speakers with mounts first.
The AVR supports 9 channels w/ 2 dedicated RCA outs for subs. I've attached the pages from the manual.
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post #138 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 11:00 AM
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The AVR supports 9 channels w/ 2 dedicated RCA outs for subs. I've attached the pages from the manual.
Should have read the manual first. Can't do front heights and surround backs simultaneous.
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post #139 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Tampastan View Post
(snip) The AVR supports Atmos.(snip)
Are you sure about that? The Pioneer web page for it says that it does not.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/P...ers/VSX-1124-K

A quick glance at some online reviews confirms it.

Even if it could decode Atmos signals, it has 7 amplifier channels, so you'd be limited to 5.2.2. That's not a criticism, just normal for 7 channel AVRs.
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post #140 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 11:16 AM
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Are you sure about that? The Pioneer web page for it says that it does not.

[A quick glance at some online reviews confirms it.

Even if it could decode Atmos signals, it has 7 amplifier channels, so you'd be limited to 5.2.2. That's not a criticism, just normal for 7 channel AVRs.
Well damn! I've been thinking this in circles over nothing. This whole time I could swear it was Atmos...
Thanks for the help and research. I missed what was in plain sight.

Purchasing a new home soon. Now to contemplate if its worth it to purchase a new AVR capable of Atmos for the theater room.
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post #141 of 369 Old 11-16-2017, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Tampastan View Post
Well damn! I've been thinking this in circles over nothing. This whole time I could swear it was Atmos...
Thanks for the help and research. I missed what was in plain sight.

Purchasing a new home soon. Now to contemplate if its worth it to purchase a new AVR capable of Atmos for the theater room.
There's a large range in prices for 7 channel AVRs. Going to 9 channels is a lot more expensive. (Example: Denon AVR-X4300H, $800 at Amazon and elsewhere.)

Elsewhere, someone pointed out that Amazon has the Yamaha RX-V681 on sale for $300. I've never seen a better 7 channel receiver at anything near that price.

It has also been promised a Dolby Vision pass-through update, but I believe that it has not gotten it yet.

I toss out those suggestions, although it sounds like buying a new AVR probably isn't one of your top priorities at the moment, completely aside from the cost.
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post #142 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 12:12 PM
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Hi Guys,
Id figure id chime in here.
Ive been reading through this whole post and have a question about placment

I am getting a new Denon AVR X2300w. I have all Polk speakers and really want to take advantage of atmos. I have 2 old sony book shelf speakers that I was going to try and use as upfiring speakers to see if I get a good overhead effect or not.

I am sitting about 8 ft from the fronts, and my ceiling is olny 3ft above my fronts.
All this atalk about front hights has me curious. I guess my big question here is that is my cieling to low to actually benefit from Atmos at all whether it be bounce sound or front heights?

My other question is that If I do go with front heights, my Front L/R speakers are about a foot out from the front wall. Does it matter if my front heights are slightly behind them then? or will they be drowed out being behind my fronts on the wall?
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post #143 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by zero83 View Post
Hi Guys,
Id figure id chime in here.
Ive been reading through this whole post and have a question about placment

I am getting a new Denon AVR X2300w. I have all Polk speakers and really want to take advantage of atmos. I have 2 old sony book shelf speakers that I was going to try and use as upfiring speakers to see if I get a good overhead effect or not.

I am sitting about 8 ft from the fronts, and my ceiling is olny 3ft above my fronts.
All this atalk about front hights has me curious. I guess my big question here is that is my cieling to low to actually benefit from Atmos at all whether it be bounce sound or front heights?

My other question is that If I do go with front heights, my Front L/R speakers are about a foot out from the front wall. Does it matter if my front heights are slightly behind them then? or will they be drowed out being behind my fronts on the wall?
First don't worry about your heights being recessed, almost anyone with properly placed and angled Fronts is going to have recessed on-wall front heights.your distance settings takes care of this, it's what they are for.
Having only 3' from ear level layer to height level layer isn't great, but possibly not a game changer, you're the only one who would really be able to answer this question by experimenting with it.
Question, since it seems like in-ceiling are out, could you do Side Heights? While not an official location, they work fairly well and could help with the possible separation of layers issue.

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post #144 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by zero83 View Post
Hi Guys,
Id figure id chime in here.
Ive been reading through this whole post and have a question about placment

I am getting a new Denon AVR X2300w. I have all Polk speakers and really want to take advantage of atmos. I have 2 old sony book shelf speakers that I was going to try and use as upfiring speakers to see if I get a good overhead effect or not.

I am sitting about 8 ft from the fronts, and my ceiling is olny 3ft above my fronts.
All this atalk about front hights has me curious. I guess my big question here is that is my cieling to low to actually benefit from Atmos at all whether it be bounce sound or front heights?

My other question is that If I do go with front heights, my Front L/R speakers are about a foot out from the front wall. Does it matter if my front heights are slightly behind them then? or will they be drowed out being behind my fronts on the wall?
First don't worry about your heights being recessed, almost anyone with properly placed and angled Fronts is going to have recessed on-wall front heights.your distance settings takes care of this, it's what they are for.
Having only 3' from ear level layer to height level layer isn't great, but possibly not a game changer, you're the only one who would really be able to answer this question by experimenting with it.
Question, since it seems like in-ceiling are out, could you do Side Heights? While not an official location, they work fairly well and could help with the possible separation of layers issue.
Im not sure side hight would help any. My cieling is still going to be only 3 ft from ear lvl.
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post #145 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 05:07 PM
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Im not sure side hight would help any. My cieling is still going to be only 3 ft from ear lvl.
I understand that, but with Side Heights as opposed to Front Heights, you're not only moving the overhead sound into the middle of the room more, you're creating more distance from the Fronts, than only the 3' on the front wall. It's that greater distance, that will help most with the separation.

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post #146 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
I understand that, but with Side Heights as opposed to Front Heights, you're not only moving the overhead sound into the middle of the room more, you're creating more distance from the Fronts, than only the 3' on the front wall. It's that greater distance, that will help most with the separation.
Ah OK I get it. so as long as I put them as high up and to the sides as I can it might be OK. Now the wierd part about my theater rom in my basment is that the high point of my cieling then drops a foot(there is an air duct that has been finished and inside the lower part of my cieling. my sitting area is right under that(like if I lean forward sitting, I am in the higher area, but if I lean back and lounge, I am in the lower part of the ceiling). If that makes sense. Everything else sounds great with my old Sony. Im jsut worried about the front Heights so I can utilize dolby atmos/DTS X
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post #147 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 06:26 PM
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Can you please normal bookshelf speakers simply on top of the existing speakers? I know that doesn't really make it that high but I was wondering if that would have any kind of "height speaker" affect? Or will that not really do anything?
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post #148 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zero83 View Post
Ah OK I get it. so as long as I put them as high up and to the sides as I can it might be OK. Now the wierd part about my theater rom in my basment is that the high point of my cieling then drops a foot(there is an air duct that has been finished and inside the lower part of my cieling. my sitting area is right under that(like if I lean forward sitting, I am in the higher area, but if I lean back and lounge, I am in the lower part of the ceiling). If that makes sense. Everything else sounds great with my old Sony. Im jsut worried about the front Heights so I can utilize dolby atmos/DTS X
Here's the deal between Side Heights and Front Heights, it all depends on what you can and can't do, and what you're looking for.
While Side Heights can give you a better overhead sensation, Front Heights will give you some overhead sensation, but where they really shine is giving you better representation of the sounds associated with what is happening on the screen, esp when it comes to vertical and diagonal movement.
x.x.2 with Front Heights is far superior to the old PLIIz with Front Heights, and most that have tried it consider it an upgrade from 5.1 or 7.1. Plus, in general, even in the ear level layer, Atmos soundtracks just seem to be cleaner and more defined.
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post #149 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 08:10 PM
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I think it's pretty simple: you can't hear sounds coming from Behind you....or Above you unless there is a speaker (or more likely multiple speakers) that can reproduce sounds coming from that direction.

So to reproduce Height Info from nearly ANY Direction, you would need both "Front" and "Rear" L/R Ceiling Speakers....or Klipsh style Speakers that aim a Top-Mounted Mid/Tweeter Assembly to the spot on the Ceiling where a Ceiling Mounted Speaker would have been located. In Dolby ATMOS Location descriptions, the L/R Front Height Locations are about 1/2-way between MLP and Front Wall...and L/R Rear Height Locations about 1/2-way between MLP and Rear Wall.

But if Sofa is against Rear Wall, about the best you can do is to locate "Rear" L/R Speakers to the SIDES and Height L/R Ceiling Locations would be Directly Overhead. And if you choose to implement only ONE pair of L/R Height Speakers, then it would likely be better to just do the Front L/R Pair...and miss out on (just) the Height effect when Special ATMOS effects are supposed to be coming from Above you to the Rear.

Unfortunately, most people don't want to pay for a 9-Channel [+ ] 5.4.1 (or .2 SW Outputs) ATMOS System....and even more are reluctant to buy an 11-Channel [+ SW Output(s)] 7.4.1 (or .2 SW Outputs) ATMOS System.....in which case a user needs to make a COMPROMISE....most likely to eliminate the L/R Rear Height Speakers since most of the ACTION is more likely to be up Front.
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Last edited by holl_ands; 11-28-2017 at 02:42 PM.
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post #150 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 08:31 PM
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Sorry, but that's not the way Atmos and object based audio works.
With object based audio, you tell the receiver your speakers locations and as long as it's a configuration that the receivers software understands, the algorithm will use multiple speakers at the same time to place the sound where it should be, anywhere within the 360° bubble around you, not just where there's a speaker.
By using a Height Speaker instead of an in-ceiling speaker, or by aiming an in-ceiling speaker at you instead of straight down, as long as those speakers are close to the specified locations, the only thing you're actually giving up is the accuracy of the sound placement, that's all.
And while 4 overheads is better than 2, the real reason for this is, that the additional speakers simply help to give you more accurate movement above you, they simply help fill the gaps, this is why commercial Atmos uses more speakers in the configuration, less or smaller gaps, more accurate sound positioning. Esp when dealing with sounds that should be placed between the ear level layer and overhead layer.
So in essence, Side Heights, simply even out the spacing between the Fronts and Rears, making all the "overhead" sound more accurate, where having Front Heights helps the accuracy of the forward overhead sounds, while lessening the accuracy of the rearward overhead sound.
Outs basically a trade off that an individual has to decide on.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html

Last edited by ALtlOff; 11-27-2017 at 08:44 PM.
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