Are Front Height Speakers OK use as Atmos speakers? - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 369 Old 11-27-2017, 09:08 PM
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Actually 180-deg Hemisphere...NOT designed to reproduce sounds coming from Underneath the Floor.

Difference between DD5.1 and DD7.1 is the addition of SIDE Speakers....which helps to "fill-in" imaging information to the SIDES, which in DD5.1 is fairly poor, given the very wide Angular Separation between Front and Rear Speakers....esp. compared to Angular Separation between Center and L/R's. Same sort of argument applies to difference between 5.1.2 vs 5.1.4 and 7.1.2 vs 7.1.4, except trying to improve Height reproduction all the way from Front to Back.

Note that "Reflection" type Speakers (i.e. Klipsch) can't help but illuminate spots on the Ceiling that are on the straight line between Height Speaker and MLP. Which results in very limited L/R Height Separation....and poor reproduction of Height information to the HIGH SIDES....biased more to JUST OVERHEAD. OTOH, Ceiling Mounted Height Speakers can be pushed closer to the Side Walls, improving the ability to reproduce sounds coming from Height info coming from the SIDES.

ATMOS is an Enhanced Data Stream in addition to either the Loss-Less Dolby TrueHD "Core" [HDMI Only].....or the compressed Dolby PLUS "Core" [also supported via Optical/ARC].

The ATMOS "Object Oriented" design stipulates the DIRECTION that a particular Signal (i.e. Circling Helo) is supposed to be coming from. And it's up to the AVR (with knowledge of HOW MANY & WHERE each Speaker is Located) to adjust relative Delays, Amplitude and Phase of Speakers in order to make it happen. Unless AVR can be told everything necessary to pin down the Location [NOT just "Delay"...but ALSO Angles of Arrival], the AVR would have to make some ASSUMPTIONS wrt how they are arranged....so there may or may NOT be ability to vary away from the published Dolby ATMOS Location Guidelines for 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2 and 7.1.4:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/do...etup-guide.pdf

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post #152 of 369 Old 11-28-2017, 01:30 PM
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For those with QUESTIONS about ATMOS Height Speaker Locations, I think that the fol. Diagrams from my son-in-law's brand new ONKYO TX-NR565 [DD7.1 or ATMOS 5.1.2] are VERY Instructive for a "Typical" AVR [and are much easier to understand than most other Manuals I've seen]. I have also included link to ALL ONKYO Manuals in case you want to investigate other AVR's:
http://redirect.onkyousa.com/redirec...160314_web.pdf [TX-NR565 Manual]
https://www.onkyousa.com/Downloads/manuals.php [All Onkyo Manuals]

There are THREE different ATMOS 7.1.2 Speaker Configurations [Height Speakers-A, -B and -C]...each with MULTIPLE Speaker Layout Designation choices in the Speaker Setup Menu.....so clearly the AVR must be TOLD what sort of SPEAKER GEOMETRY [i.e. Speaker-to-Speaker Angular Separation, etc] is used so that it can calculate the correct Amplitude, Phase and Delay when outputting signals to the array of Speakers. CALIBRATION of Speaker Delays, Amplitude and Phase vs Frequency is an important part of the Automatic Equalization Process.

The first (Height Type A) is for Speakers located in either L/R FRONT HEIGHT or L/R REAR HEIGHT Locations. Note that in the second (Height Type B), the user can locate Ceiling Speakers [aka "Top"] at either FRONT, OVERHEAD or REAR L/R Locations, designated by appropriate AVR Menu Entry. And the third (Height Type C) is for Klipsch Style Speakers [L/R Front Height OR L/R Rear Height...but NOT BOTH] that are ANGLED to REFLECT Height Sounds off the the Ceiling, where the UP Angle SHOULD be ADJUSTABLE so that the Ceiling Reflection Spot would be about 1/2-way between Height Speaker and MLP)....[although I suppose you'll get SOME sort of degraded Height Effect if it was FIXED to fire directly UPWARDS]. [FYI: I was also disappointed to see that it does NOT support a FRONT-CENTER HEIGHT plus REAR-CENTER HEIGHT configuration.]

All of these Height Configurations are LIMITED to providing Height Information for the FRONT, REAR or OVERHEAD (Ceiling Top) L/R Locations. An UPGRADE to a 5.4.1 or 7.4.1 AVR with 9 or 11 Amp Channels + SW Outputs would be needed to support BOTH L/R Front and L/R Rear Height Channels. FYI: Here are example Manuals for Onkyo 9-channel (TX-RZ920) and 11-Channel (PR-RZ5100) AVR's:
http://redirect.onkyousa.com/redirec...171113_web.pdf
http://redirect.onkyousa.com/redirec...171113_web.pdf

Earlier, I discussed importance of TRYING to Ensure that ALL Speakers use the same Mid-Range/Tweeter Part Numbers to ensure that they faithfully MATCH Amplitude, Envelope Delay and Phase Response, esp. across the difficult Speaker Crossover Regions:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...l#post55204826
Some people talk about TIMBER MATCHED Speakers....but unless they are using SAME Part Numbers, I doubt that they are truly MATCHED....esp.when located so that MLP is at a Horizontal and/or Vertical ANGLE to the Speaker, where the Energy Response Patterns rarely MATCH unless using SAME Part Number components. You are, of course, free to use whatever Speakers you have gathered together over time....just don't expect as accurate Imaging and Even Motion Reproduction as is possible with a Truly Matched ATMOS System.

ALTERNATIVE ATMOS 7.1.2 SPEAKER LOCATIONS:
ON EACH DIAGRAM, BOTTOM LEFT HAS A LIST OF ALTERNATIVE MENU CHOICES:






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post #153 of 369 Old 11-28-2017, 01:31 PM
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Alternative DD5.1 and DD7.1 Speaker Locations....and Speaker Connections (LINE UP THE NUMBERS):

Note that the DD5.1 Speakers located as the "Rear" Speakers [and might already be screwed into the wall] are actually labeled as being the "L/R SURROUND" Speakers (#4/5 in Diagram). So when adding two Speakers for DD7.1 UPGRADE, the existing Speakers in the "Rear" become the "L/R REAR" Speakers (#7/8, connected to DIFFERENT Amp Outputs)....and two new "L/R Side" Speakers are connected to "L/R SURROUND" Amp Outputs.


MOST DD7.1 SURROUND SPEAKER STYLES ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR ATMOS:


The STYLE of Speakers used for the DD7.1 "Side" Speakers varies quite a bit [many/most on the market today are DUAL-SPEAKERS], originally intended to generate Room Reverberation [more than Localized Special Effects like in ATMOS]. Since DUAL-SPEAKERS is what has been advertised for "Surround", many people are also using them for REAR Speakers....although I think that is a MISTAKE....to reproduce a Coherent Rear Effect intended to be BEHIND the listener, they NEED be Direct Radiating type aimed at MLP....otherwise it's an Incoherent mis-mash of signals arriving from many different directions.

1) Single Speaker with NO Rear Enclosure directing signals equally Out-of-Phase to Front and Rear [I think this was the FIRST Dolby/THX "standard"],

2) Two Speakers (connected so Out-Of-Phase, with one pushing while the other sucks) directing signals equally to Front and Rear,

3) Two Speakers (connected IN-Phase, so both push at the same time) directing signals equally to Front and Rear, and

4) Firing Directly toward MLP [also suitable for ATMOS].
NOTE the fol. link includes a comment that DOLBY ATMOS webside recommended to REPLACE these sorts of Dual-Speakers with a conventional Speaker....which should be no surprise to anyone.....it's essential to generating a SINGLE Coherent Sound Source that can be combined with OTHER Single Coherent Sound Sources to generate a MOVING Sound Source:
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...pole-vs-bipole
https://www.soundandvision.com/bootcamp/25
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...ipole-one.html

BTW: I've been generating additional DELAYED, DISPERSE "Room Reverberation" in my various Surround systems all the way back since the Mid-70's....playing back Vinyl LP's and Quad 8-Tracks. With the past 12-years using Bi-Directional "BIPOLAR" Planar-Magnetic Front Speakers:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post54514009






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post #154 of 369 Old 12-04-2017, 06:37 AM
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I've got a dilemma. Already got a 7.2.4 setup in my theater. Just upgraded my old 4100 to a 4300 so I got the 7.2.4 now. Moved the 4100 to my living room. I'd like to put 5.2.2 setup in my living room but can't do ceiling speakers so I'm considering SVS elevation speakers. Killer is I have the typical rectangle room, TV on long wall, couch up against wall, surrounds are on the side walls, and I'm trying to decide if I should put the elevation speakers as rear heights or front heights. My front height location is a very easy wall to run cable up inside of as it's an hallow inside wall, whereas the rear height is an outside wall - which I've done before but it's hard. Insulation and vapor barrier make the job harder. But putting installation aside, I'm wondering what would be better, front rears or front heights? Rear's would be directly over my head above my couch - not on side walls. The SVS's are an angled speaker.
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post #155 of 369 Old 12-04-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfmp3 View Post
I've got a dilemma. Already got a 7.2.4 setup in my theater. Just upgraded my old 4100 to a 4300 so I got the 7.2.4 now. Moved the 4100 to my living room. I'd like to put 5.2.2 setup in my living room but can't do ceiling speakers so I'm considering SVS elevation speakers. Killer is I have the typical rectangle room, TV on long wall, couch up against wall, surrounds are on the side walls, and I'm trying to decide if I should put the elevation speakers as rear heights or front heights. My front height location is a very easy wall to run cable up inside of as it's an hallow inside wall, whereas the rear height is an outside wall - which I've done before but it's hard. Insulation and vapor barrier make the job harder. But putting installation aside, I'm wondering what would be better, front rears or front heights? Rear's would be directly over my head above my couch - not on side walls. The SVS's are an angled speaker.
Congrats on the receiver upgrade! I would recommend Front Heights first before Rear Heights. Our ears pick up more sound information from the front, then from the sides, then least from the back. Your front sound stage will be noticeably larger. I'm currently running a 5.2.2 setup (with Front Heights) and love it.
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post #156 of 369 Old 12-04-2017, 05:40 PM
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That totally makes sense. The only reason why I question it is throughout my upgrades in my theater with Atmos ( 5.2.2 - 5.2.4, to 7.2.4) , I've noticed that my rear ceiling speakers are just being used a lot more than my fronts in most movies. Atmos demo's are one thing, but in movies and even more so in Dolby up-mixing, the rear's are much more dominant. I wish there was a way I could try them in both places temporarily but in order to do this I have to run speakers cables from a room downstairs so it's not straight forward. Front heights would be soooo much easier to do though.
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post #157 of 369 Old 12-05-2017, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfmp3 View Post
That totally makes sense. The only reason why I question it is throughout my upgrades in my theater with Atmos ( 5.2.2 - 5.2.4, to 7.2.4) , I've noticed that my rear ceiling speakers are just being used a lot more than my fronts in most movies. Atmos demo's are one thing, but in movies and even more so in Dolby up-mixing, the rear's are much more dominant. I wish there was a way I could try them in both places temporarily but in order to do this I have to run speakers cables from a room downstairs so it's not straight forward. Front heights would be soooo much easier to do though.
Interesting. When you say "used a lot more than my fronts", does that mean it sounds louder (more pronounced) or that there are more affects (on average) being sent to the rears? I presume the MLP is equidistant from the Front and Rear ceiling speakers, if not that could possibly affect perception.

You could experiment with your main theater and configured it in a similar setup as your living room: IE configure it to a 5.2.2 setup and disable the Rear Heights, listen to material, then disable Front Height and enable Rear Heights, listen to material.

I know that I've seen the Dolby Atmos minimum spec configuration require Front Height speakers with Rear Heights being secondary, if your going for technical accuracy.

Let us know what you decide =)

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post #158 of 369 Old 12-05-2017, 09:08 AM
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Yes my front ceilings speakers have always been less active than my rear ones. Atmos demos are fine, but movies or up-mixing DSU it's obvious the rears are more active and louder. often get up to check and see if they are on. I always wondered if it was a setup issue, or where I only had 5.2.4 and it was purposely sending more info into the rears due to no back surrounds but since having 7.2.4 they are no different. I compensate by running them higher than Audyssey suggest. Interesting the Atmos spec suggest front heights first. That might be my answer there. When I did my theater I knew from the start I was going with 4 ceiling speakers so I positioned according to spec. Whereas 5.2.4 has them in a bit of a different location from what I remember.


I think this is going to be a try it and see situation as the room will dictate this more than anything else.
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post #159 of 369 Old 01-02-2018, 11:49 AM
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Having just finished several days of testing, I'd say that front heights for an ATMOS system don't work so well..unless you can maintain similar angles to the ATMOS ceiling speakers spec. This would be around 45 degrees to the front heights, and 135 to the rears relative to MLP. In my low ceiling room (7') you can do this using rear heights, but no where close using front heights. I'd also say that an ATMOS config where there is no height channel behind the MLP (like my Scenario A) doesn't' work well at all. There are 7.2.4 channels in play, 7 surround, 4 ceiling, 2 subs.

I tried two setups with height speakers. I have two ATMOS ceiling speakers just forward of the MLP. I set up the Denon AVR-x4400 with:

A. Front Height + Top Middle
B. Rear Height + Top Middle

Testing scenes from the ATMOS 2016 demo disk, scenario A really suffered with respect to 3D audio object tracking. Scenario B worked very well. For example, in one of the Mission Impossible clips, a motorbike rider is hit and rolls over the roof of a BMW. The scene is recorded from the car occupants viewpoint so in scenario B you're pretty much ducking for cover during the scene..you can hear and feel the roof buckling. The same scene in Scenario A sound far more "nebulous", diffuse...not so great. I was hoping in the front height configuration that the sound field would be better distributed in the space (10x19). It was, but at the cost of 3D imaging.

Hope that helps.
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post #160 of 369 Old 01-02-2018, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennwood View Post
Having just finished several days of testing, I'd say that front heights for an ATMOS system don't work so well..unless you can maintain similar angles to the ATMOS ceiling speakers spec. This would be around 45 degrees to the front heights, and 135 to the rears relative to MLP. In my low ceiling room (7') you can do this using rear heights, but no where close using front heights. I'd also say that an ATMOS config where there is no height channel behind the MLP (like my Scenario A) doesn't' work well at all. There are 7.2.4 channels in play, 7 surround, 4 ceiling, 2 subs.

I tried two setups with height speakers. I have two ATMOS ceiling speakers just forward of the MLP. I set up the Denon AVR-x4400 with:

A. Front Height + Top Middle
B. Rear Height + Top Middle

Testing scenes from the ATMOS 2016 demo disk, scenario A really suffered with respect to 3D audio object tracking. Scenario B worked very well. For example, in one of the Mission Impossible clips, a motorbike rider is hit and rolls over the roof of a BMW. The scene is recorded from the car occupants viewpoint so in scenario B you're pretty much ducking for cover during the scene..you can hear and feel the roof buckling. The same scene in Scenario A sound far more "nebulous", diffuse...not so great. I was hoping in the front height configuration that the sound field would be better distributed in the space (10x19). It was, but at the cost of 3D imaging.

Hope that helps.
Interesting - I have a core 5.1 setup with those speakers at ear level with an additional 6 speakers for Atmos. My 6 atmos speakers are a combination of your A and B setup as they are front heights, top rear (in ceiling slightly behind MLP), and rear heights. I find Atmos tracks to be VERY convincing with this setup. I will admit the front heights seem to be less noticeable, but they seem to perform well during scenes that use them.

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| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #161 of 369 Old 01-02-2018, 01:53 PM
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Cit, the key here is that you have ATMOS over and behind the MLP, so fore/aft pans should be noticeable. I have a low ceiling, and the fronts heights were 15-16 feet from MLP. They pretty much disappeared into the sound field. I suspect a smaller/taller room would provide different results :-)

Just curious, with the Marantz 6011, how did you define six ATMOS heights?
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post #162 of 369 Old 01-02-2018, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennwood View Post
Having just finished several days of testing, I'd say that front heights for an ATMOS system don't work so well..unless you can maintain similar angles to the ATMOS ceiling speakers spec. This would be around 45 degrees to the front heights, and 135 to the rears relative to MLP. In my low ceiling room (7') you can do this using rear heights, but no where close using front heights. I'd also say that an ATMOS config where there is no height channel behind the MLP (like my Scenario A) doesn't' work well at all. There are 7.2.4 channels in play, 7 surround, 4 ceiling, 2 subs.

I tried two setups with height speakers. I have two ATMOS ceiling speakers just forward of the MLP. I set up the Denon AVR-x4400 with:

A. Front Height + Top Middle
B. Rear Height + Top Middle

Testing scenes from the ATMOS 2016 demo disk, scenario A really suffered with respect to 3D audio object tracking. Scenario B worked very well. For example, in one of the Mission Impossible clips, a motorbike rider is hit and rolls over the roof of a BMW. The scene is recorded from the car occupants viewpoint so in scenario B you're pretty much ducking for cover during the scene..you can hear and feel the roof buckling. The same scene in Scenario A sound far more "nebulous", diffuse...not so great. I was hoping in the front height configuration that the sound field would be better distributed in the space (10x19). It was, but at the cost of 3D imaging.

Hope that helps.
Interesting!

How far is your MLP to the back wall?
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post #163 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 04:44 AM
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Interesting!

How far is your MLP to the back wall?
MLP is about 30” from the back wall, a situation dictated by the space unfortunately. The back wall also hosts a 4’x8’ acoustic absorber.
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post #164 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by dennwood View Post
Having just finished several days of testing, I'd say that front heights for an ATMOS system don't work so well..unless you can maintain similar angles to the ATMOS ceiling speakers spec. This would be around 45 degrees to the front heights, and 135 to the rears relative to MLP. In my low ceiling room (7') you can do this using rear heights, but no where close using front heights. I'd also say that an ATMOS config where there is no height channel behind the MLP (like my Scenario A) doesn't' work well at all. There are 7.2.4 channels in play, 7 surround, 4 ceiling, 2 subs.......

Hope that helps.
Must be the height of your ceiling? I run Front and Rear heights, but mine are about 15 ft high. Did you run Audyssey? That helps a lot for me.
That scene you are talking about does sound good.

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post #165 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennwood View Post
Cit, the key here is that you have ATMOS over and behind the MLP, so fore/aft pans should be noticeable. I have a low ceiling, and the fronts heights were 15-16 feet from MLP. They pretty much disappeared into the sound field. I suspect a smaller/taller room would provide different results :-)

Just curious, with the Marantz 6011, how did you define six ATMOS heights?
I don't think there was actually a way to define six Atmos heights. I had to define it as 5ch + Surround Back. It's unfortunate, but the surround back are actually up high, so not exactly acting as rear heights, but more-so just surround backs that happen to be up high. I couldn't have real surround back as my kitchen is directly behind and open to MLP. It still works surprisingly well. The in-ceiling atmos speakers are being amplified by a separate stereo amp.

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| AVR/Amps: Marantz SR-6011 9C | Audio Source AMP-100VS | iNuke 1000DSP; TTs: 4x AuraSound Pro |
| Center: B&W CM Center 2 S2 Ed | Fronts: 2x B&W 684 S1s | Side Surrounds: 2x B&W 685 S1 |
| Front/Rear Heights: 4x Polk T15 | In-Ceiling: 2x Micca M-8C | Subs: 2x Rythmik FV15HP |
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post #166 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 09:54 AM
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EdQ, 15 ft is a high ceiling indeed. Mine are less than half that in a basement of a 100yr old home. Moving speakers and then running Audyssey again over 11 channels, 2 subs and eight sample locations is a time consuming prospect indeed. I am using the MultiEQ app so at least the different configurations/calibrations are stored so I could load them into the AVR quickly. The differences in 3D fields sound so different, i’d be inclined to recommend ATMOs tests before closing any theater walls in if you’re not following the design angles exactly.

My room is a low ceiling, 10x19, with MLP at the rear, so finding what sounds best there is a matter of testing configs and listening. Very time consuming!

Cit, I could see that working as your 4 Height channels are there, but the rears are up high behind MLP. I’m sure it obfuscates the 3d sound field a bit..but not every space is perfect. Mine is hardly ideal. Having open space behind MLP with room to move the rear surrounds back would be awesome :-)

Last edited by dennwood; 01-03-2018 at 10:13 AM.
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post #167 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennwood View Post
EdQ, 15 ft is a high ceiling indeed. Mine are less than half that in a basement of a 100yr old home.

Cit, I could see that working as your 4 Height channels are there, but the rears are up high behind MLP. I’m sure it obfuscates the 3d sound field a bit..but not every space is perfect. Mine is hardly ideal. Having open space behind MLP with room to move the rear surrounds back would be awesome :-)
Yeah the flyover sounds mainly use the top rear and front heights. The surround backs, although up high, still properly play sounds like doors or footsteps behind you, even if they are up high, its not entirely obvious that the sound is coming from behind and above you, it really does just sound like behind you most of the time. I asked in the Official Marantz SR6011 thread if there is a better amp assign for my speaker config. We will see what the knowledgeable folks over there say.

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post #168 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 11:53 AM
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MLP is about 30” from the back wall, a situation dictated by the space unfortunately. The back wall also hosts a 4’x8’ acoustic absorber.
Okie, I'm probably in the same situation.
My ceiling is 11' height but only for one side, if I have to level both front height speakers, it has to be around 9' or 10', couch is pretty much against the back wall (well, about 12" space)
I was wondering whether front height or rear height will give me better atmos effects.
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post #169 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 12:08 PM
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+1 to that. I have friends that don't understand why I have "so many speakers"...Until they come over for movie night.

Im about 90% sure Ill be grabbing a X4300H here soon. Who else has one of these and can chime in on ATMOS/height set up? I am interested in rear heights after doing some reading am curious as to how that is set up.
I recently picked up a Denon AVRX4300H and am deeply entertained by the idea and potential of FH/RH setups. I bought a pair of KEF Q100s for the FHs and Klipsch R-14Ms for the RHs. Im in the process of mounting the KEFs high on the front wall with them angled down towards the MLP. So excited and I love the 4300H thus far.

Thank you for starting this thread! Def the most helpful thread I've found for ideas on speaker placement!
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post #170 of 369 Old 01-03-2018, 04:11 PM
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Blitz, I returned an x3400 last week and exchanged for x4400. Going to 11 channels from 7 was a night and day difference!

Based on my own testing, In the ATMOS height speakers dept, i’d stick with these angles, whether height or in-ceiling:



I’m cheating a bit on the rear angles, closer to 100 degrees, but it works.
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post #171 of 369 Old 01-04-2018, 07:31 PM
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EdQ, 15 ft is a high ceiling indeed. Mine are less than half that in a basement of a 100yr old home. Moving speakers and then running Audyssey again over 11 channels, 2 subs and eight sample locations is a time consuming prospect indeed. I am using the MultiEQ app so at least the different configurations/calibrations are stored so I could load them into the AVR quickly. The differences in 3D fields sound so different, i’d be inclined to recommend ATMOs tests before closing any theater walls in if you’re not following the design angles exactly.

My room is a low ceiling, 10x19, with MLP at the rear, so finding what sounds best there is a matter of testing configs and listening. Very time consuming!

Cit, I could see that working as your 4 Height channels are there, but the rears are up high behind MLP. I’m sure it obfuscates the 3d sound field a bit..but not every space is perfect. Mine is hardly ideal. Having open space behind MLP with room to move the rear surrounds back would be awesome :-)
What about pointing your speakers up and reflecting off the ceiling? Sounds would come from more above.

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post #172 of 369 Old 01-05-2018, 12:03 AM
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That's more or less what ATMOS enabled floor speakers do. I tried that position (reflecting off the ceiling) with my rear heights, but it killed their response..this was obvious looking at the Audyssey curves. The rears heights work much better pointed down towards MLP.
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post #173 of 369 Old 01-12-2018, 05:28 PM
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So I thought I'd update on my little project of using SVS elevation speakers near the ceiling as front heights.


Bottom line - don't bother. Even though the speakers are exactly the angle I'd want, and my ceilings are only 8 feet high with speakers about 12' from me, it was a waste of time. I'd been better off putting them as rear heights shooting them from the sides. But, I went through a LOT to get the speakers mounted where they are thanks to unexpected horizontal studs getting in the way of running cables, and lets just say...they ain't coming down


The Speakers themselves are well built, sturdy little things, but the bracket is a mess. There are four points for screws, H pattern. Two on the left two on the right. They are a few inches apart. My studs and the brackets would not line up. The studs ended up being straight in the middle of the bracket missing every screw hole....which begs the question, why isn't there screw holes in the center of the bracket or better yet a continuous hole across the top/bottom where you could slide the mount to where you need it. I had to move the bracket over to get at least two screws into a stud and two into heavy anchors. So my Speakers are not dead center above my fronts. Luckily it looks fine. Since they are a little thinner than my fronts, I lined them up so they are perfectly inline with the inside side of each speaker. I would NEVER mount these speakers upside down in anchors alone. They are not overly heavy, but because they are wedged shaped, they are very top heavy and I fear any anchor you would use would eventually pull out of the wall. You also need at least 1.5" above each speaker to the ceiling to be able to mount them - just keep that in mind. Also, throw away the included template as it's nowhere near the actual size of the real speaker causing all my original measurements to be off...it's off by quite a bit - I tossed in the @#$% garbage once I realized it's off so much top to bottom and left to right. My point being I know what atmos is supposed to sound like and front heights alone do not cut it.


So 600 bucks wasted. Maybe not totally, but I don't feel they added enough to make it worth while. I would love to try them on the rear height position instead, but no way I'm moving them now. Keep in mind I have a full Atmos theater in another room with actual ceilings speakers ( All Axiom, SVS and HSU subs) and that setup sounds fantastic. I was hoping to have a small setup upstairs without cutting into my ceiling or hanging from my ceiling as that would look horrible, and cutting into my ceiling is actually my attic which is a no no around here.

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post #174 of 369 Old 01-17-2018, 07:14 AM
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So it seems like height works for some for some it dont. I really want testimonials from people who have tried heights vs upfiring. Which one give them the best sound with 2 speaker atmos setup.

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post #175 of 369 Old 01-17-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tinhvo View Post
Okie, I'm probably in the same situation.
My ceiling is 11' height but only for one side, if I have to level both front height speakers, it has to be around 9' or 10', couch is pretty much against the back wall (well, about 12" space)
I was wondering whether front height or rear height will give me better atmos effects.
Tinhvo, based on my testing (a lot of it) , I'd recommend that if you're going 5.1.2 use rear heights or middle, not front. Why? With only two ATMOS speakers you will only hear left/right pans, and sounds the audio engineer intended to be overhead. The reason why most are likely not liking two front height speakers is that both left/right pans and overhead noises will be staged so far in front of you (with a front height setup), you may not perceive them very well in your sound field. With my lower ceiling and 18ft long room, front heights were a waste of time.

Moving two ATMOS speakers closer above you ensures that left/right pans and overhead effects will be far more obvious in the 3D sound stage.

That said, I didn't find two ATMOS speakers anywhere close to immersive as four. These four should really follow the suggested Dolby angle recommendations as I posted a few days ago. Testing different speaker configs with 11 channels and six test positions (Audyssey XT32) takes a long, long time...but the experience was very enlightening with respect to ATMOS, psycho acoustics and 3D sound staging. I have something like 16 Audyssey configs stored in the iOS app I've been using to load profiles into the AVR since starting with the 5.1.2 system and moving to 7.2.4.

LazyCricket, I would pretty much guarantee ceiling vs up-firing will be preferable in nearly 100% of blind tests. Why? Spkrs configured for full range (no frequency hacking for height effect) and actually above you would win every time (IMHO). I've also noticed that mid-bass definitely shows up in the height effects (like the MI scene I referenced as a "bad guy" rolls over the car roof) so doing it again, I'd use four in-ceiling with 8" drivers..not the 6.5" I used. I built very solid backer boxes, so the 6.5" drivers perform as Paradigm designed them :-) Paradigm suggested 32 liters (about 1.2 cubic feet) for the box, sealed. I've used pink fluffy to stuff them. Bottom line, going for the best low frequency setup you can manage will not be a waste of time.

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post #176 of 369 Old 01-18-2018, 12:41 AM
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So it seems like height works for some for some it dont. I really want testimonials from people who have tried heights vs upfiring. Which one give them the best sound with 2 speaker atmos setup.

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I've been using front heights and rear heights for close to a year now. I've also experimented with side heights like SVS suggests - https://images.techhive.com/images/a...91205-orig.jpg

My room is 18'x12'x10' (LxWxH). So not an extremely big room and because it also doubles as a bedroom with a sofa in it, placement is a little bit tricky. You see I use the short end of the room where I have my display at, the sidewall instead of the front or rear wall. This means that as far as my viewing space is concerned, the length I have is really only 12ft, not 18.

Using front heights and rear heights is then a more viable choice because the panning from front to back is absolutely seamless. With the side wall configuration, the portion between the front of my main speakers and the listening position becomes quite "hot". It's like a mess of details and they become very diffused, which is not what I like.

Point is - it's entirely room dependent and placement is key. If I were to use the longer length of my room (which means tossing out the bed) - then the sidewall height positions is better. Because using front height and rear height would create an obvious 'gap' in the middle of the room.
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post #177 of 369 Old 01-18-2018, 07:03 AM
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Thanks a lot for your feedback, m8.
I'll try the rear height option.
In fact, I could try both but I don't want to put holes on the walls
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post #178 of 369 Old 01-18-2018, 09:26 AM
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Thanks a lot for your feedback, m8.
I'll try the rear height option.
In fact, I could try both but I don't want to put holes on the walls
Yeah i am in the same boat. Its a new house and dont wanna be punch holes through out
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post #179 of 369 Old 01-28-2018, 08:11 AM
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I added front heights about a year ago for atmos. I have vaulted ceilings, so in ceiling speakers were not an option. like others mentioned, every room is different. However, I noticed a huge improvement in my application and look forward to adding rear heights at some point.

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post #180 of 369 Old 01-29-2018, 10:50 AM
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Folks,

Glad I found this thread. I've been considering a few options for implementing Atmos, either on-ceiling or front/rear heights. I have a Monitor Audio Gold setup (GX 100, GXC 350 and 6 GX FXs) currently in 9.1.2 configuration. My room is quite large for a London house (40ft*18ft*10ft). Options I was considering were:
  • Mount 4 GX-FXs on ceiling - not 100% keen on this as they are 24lb speakers - I can run these as Monopole or Dipole;
  • Swap GX-FXs for Apex A10s - these are a lot lighter - but not as capable as a GX FX;
  • Mount 4 GX-FXs as Front Heights/Rear Heights - this is certainly the simplest option. The Front Heights I currently run are around 6ft high - I would mount them an extra 4 ft higher for Atmos.

Reading through the thread quite a few of you have had success using heights for Atmos, which is encouraging. So I was canvassing for opinions. I did measure the angles from the MLP and this option does give a 45 degree angle to the front and around 135 to the rear. I would configure the 2 base GX-FXs as surrounds rather than rears and probably run in dipole to give a larger sound field.

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