2.0 Bookshelf Compared! Wharfedale, Philharmonic, Chane, MusicHall, Elac, Energy, Kef - Page 27 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #781 of 1009 Old 09-09-2016, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by yanks1 View Post
I had them previously at seated ear height. I prefer the sound 1.5 ft higher that Dolby white paper states is fine. Still have separation from the in/ceiling Atmos speakers. I'll play MI Rouge Nation or Star Trek and test how they sound for action movies. Thx for asking about the storm Hermine.

We got belted with massive rain, 10.5" in 7 hours and the bulk happened between noon and 3 pm: little rivers running in our gullies at the property lines but they worked as intended. See attached pix, was scary at times. Winds though only at 35-40 mph so got lucky there.

Wow, that looks worse than what my mom described. She lives near Myrtle Beach in Conway, SC and just had rain but no damage. Glad your family is safe! Yeah, surrounds can be tricky. I have mine where tweeter is 41 inches from floor at 90 degrees beside me about 7 feet away from MLP but they are bipole/quadpole so its pretty diffused and not too bad. Hope you get it all dialed out and looks good by the way.

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post #782 of 1009 Old 09-09-2016, 02:31 PM
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2.0 Bookshelf Compared! Wharfedale, Philharmonic, Chane, MusicHall, Elac, Energy, Kef

Thx; gullies ushered all water to storm drains. Our house is on a mini crown which helps rainwater roll to the gullies. House had zero damage & glad to hear ur Moms house is ok.

and yes, we'll experiment with the surrounds; my tweeters now at 58", they were at 46" which I felt were too low with our high back loveseat; thx
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post #783 of 1009 Old 09-13-2016, 11:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool to see that this thread is still cranking along

I've been in audio bliss with my Sierra-2's and haven't been on in awhile haha
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post #784 of 1009 Old 09-13-2016, 07:43 PM
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Cool to see that this thread is still cranking along



I've been in audio bliss with my Sierra-2's and haven't been on in awhile haha


Great to hear. Have you noticed any changes to their sound since owning them? Thinking of picking some up after the new year.


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post #785 of 1009 Old 09-13-2016, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Great to hear. Have you noticed any changes to their sound since owning them? Thinking of picking some up after the new year.


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I have but not because of the speakers, I've changed DAC I use a few times and that's caused more of a change than anything the speakers would have done on their own.
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post #786 of 1009 Old 09-14-2016, 10:53 AM
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Cool to see that this thread is still cranking along

I've been in audio bliss with my Sierra-2's and haven't been on in awhile haha
I’m not at all surprised that this thread continues to have legs. You’ve listened to, and gave excellent comments of, some of the most sought after inexpensive speakers available today. That’s no small feat.

Thanks once again for doing this. People will continue to refer to this thread for a long time. The setup and trouble (boxing and unboxing) alone had to be daunting. I cannot imagine testing out so many speakers in such a short time frame.

BTW, continued enjoyment of the Sierra 2’s. My son and I auditioned them at Ascend Acoustics and enjoyed them.
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post #787 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 09:32 AM
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Doing a huge budget bookshelf speaker shoot out!

After talking to many on this forum it can be hard to pick a set of Bookshelves under $350 so rather than keep asking questions I ordered 7 (and now more) that I felt would be a good fit for building a 2.0 system. And instead of picking a winner I'm going to compare differences between each to hopefully help you make a more informed decision based on your sound preferences!

Qualifications for initially picking a speaker were:
  • Passive Bookshelf Speaker
  • Goes down to 50 hz or lower
  • $200-$350 (went a bit over w/ Wharfedale)

I've since added a few on request of others

The list of speakers and their prices are below. I'll be updating this forum over the next two weeks as I try them out. Each speaker has the price I paid, and the current MSRP next to them (a - if its the same)

  • Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 ($375/$450)
  • Elac B6 ($280/-)
  • Chane A1rx-c ($300/-)
  • Energy RC-10 ($330/-)
  • KEF Q100 ($300/$550)
  • Music Hall Marimba ($200/$350)
  • NHT SuperOne ($300/$360)
  • Wharfedale Diamond 220 ($350/-)
  • HTD Level THREE ($320/-)
  • Philharmonic AA ($195/-)
  • Wave Crest HVL-1 ($200/-)
  • EMP Tek R5Bi ($225/-) - Arrival TBD

DAC: Schiit Gungnir Multibit
Amp: NAD 316bee
Source: MacBook Pro using Tidal through Amarra sQ+
Songs: tidal.com/playlist/26167c90-9aea-4579-bebd-20e3554d09c3

The order of the speakers below is the order in which I received them to test.

My sound preferences are usually just slightly warm (super sensitive to harsh treble) so that may bias my reviews slightly to liking the slightly warmer speakers (that can be seen in me thinking RC-10s as semi-neutral and the Chane's as slightly bright while others would call the RC-10 warm and the Chane's neutral).

If you all have any questions please let me know and I'll listen for certain things/try certain songs!

-------------------

Wharfedale Diamond 10.2

http://wharfedale.co.uk/product.php?pid=50



These speakers are first off absolutely wonderful so this comparison is off to a good start. Listened through my whole library and it added a ton of excitement to my music. The sound stage felt very much like the music was directly in front of me hovering right above my computer monitor and the deep bass could make you really feel it.

The mids/highs while nothing specifically wrong with them (don’t sound veiled or terribly recessed) don’t have the quality of the Chane’s or KEF Q100s.

After listening to a few of the other speakers these by far have the strongest bass of the bunch, deep and heavy, you won't miss having a subwoofer using these, but you can tell the bass extension traded a bit for quality and you can hear muddiness of the mid/upper bass.

These also have a very tall and deep soundstage, not the widest but still quite big.

I would put the sound signature of these as slightly warm.

Pros:
  • Exciting, big sound
  • Very powerful and deep bass

Cons:
  • Mid-Bass Hump can make the bass sound exaggerated at times
  • Mids/highs can sound slightly lower quality when compared to the other speakers

-------------------

Elac B6

http://elac.us/speakers



Coming off the Wharfedale these didn't have as much excitement to them, a bit more veiled/recessed on the mids/highs, and occasionally peaky. The soundstage feels more stereo and less like the music was all floating over the middle but a bit more spread out across the front and more enveloping. One of the best 3d sound stages of the speakers.

On a good note the bass reached quite low on these, almost as good as the Wharfedales, but with a bit less impact, which I would say is a good thing. The bass it tighter, more accurate, doesn't have that mid bass hump and sounds nicer than the Wharfedale's.

I would put the sound signature of these as warm/dark.

Pros:
  • Very deep and high quality bass, quite astounding how good
  • Wide soundstage

Cons:
  • Highs seemed a bit veiled and recessed
  • Mids also somewhat veiled
  • Lacks the excitement factor of the Wharfedale speakers
  • Highs can seem a bit peaky at times, causing me to turn down my speakers

-------------------

Chane A1rx-c

http://www.chanemusiccinema.com/A1rx-c

1 Meter Measurements



Getting to try out a "leaf" tweeter with these and they certainly shine through. These are the most detailed in the highs/mids and some of the better mids, possibly tying with the KEF Q100s.

Bass quality and extension is certainly there, and the kick/impact is solid, not exaggerated but noticeable. Wharfedale 10.2/Elac B6 would win out on bass output but these perform better in the mids/highs.

The sound signature of these speakers is just on the bright side of neutral.

Pros:
  • Very transparent sounding speakers, not at all veiled
  • The highs sparkle nicely
  • Very good mids
  • Tight accurate bass

Cons:
  • Occasionally the slightest bit of sibilance/treble fatigue at times

-------------------

Energy RC-10

http://www.energy-speakers.com/books...ers/?sku=RC-10



These are some of the more musical speakers. The mids/highs are laid back and slightly veiled, although not as much as the Elac B6.

There’s a good amount of bass kick, but maybe a slight mid bass hump then a quick drop off, while you could get away without a subwoofer I’d suggest one with these. The mid bass hump can mask the quick drop off and cause these to be a good musical option if running these as 2.0 speakers.

The sound signature of these are warm.

Pros:
  • Good upper/mid bass quality
  • Very musical sounding

Cons:
  • Treble roll off / slightly veiled mids
  • Quick roll off of sub-bass

-------------------

KEF Q100

http://kef.com/html/en/showroom/hi-f...100/index.html

1 Meter Measurements



The Q100’s have amazing and clear mids slightly better than the Chane’s and well extended and quality treble, if the slightest roll off when compared to the Chane’s.

There’s also solid bass quality for a speaker this size. I’d put the bass as very linear, the mid-bass kick is there, but the bass does sound a bit thin compared to many of the other speakers but not as bad as the Marimba’s.

These sound among the most neutral of the speakers tested with these having a bit less bass impact and extension on both ends than some of the others.

Sound sig is very neutral.

Pros:
  • Very clear and quality mids, one of the best of the set
  • Good bass extension with nothing exaggerated.

Cons:
  • Would like slightly more bass impact
  • Possibly the slightest bit of treble roll off

-------------------

Music Hall Marimba

http://musichallaudio.com/loudspeakers/



These are quite an interesting speaker and the cheapest purchase price of those reviewed so far. These are also the smallest speaker of the bunch. The sound of these were thinner than the rest, the highs didn't seem as clean and had a semi "metallic" sound to them, but on the other hand these had mids right in line with the Chane’s and KEF’s, it would be hard to pick a winner of best mids. They have a great attack/decay and make voices and acoustic sounds very real.

The con (and this is very real with speaker size) is very little bass. The sub rumble can show up, but the mid bass impact and quality isn't too great. Drum kicks sounded kinda tubby and not like a kick. These would certainly benefit from a subwoofer and probably a crossover around 100 hz.

These sound very similar to the Chane's/KEF’s but with less bass impact/extension and a tad bit more harsh.

Sound sig is neutral/bright

Pros:
  • Amazing attack/decay makes clean mids

Cons:
  • A bit thin sounding/metallic highs
  • Lacking bass impact and somewhat of quality

-------------------

NHT SuperOne

http://www.nhthifi.com/products/1065...shelf-speakers

1 Meter Measurements



First off before even listening these speakers look stunning, the piano black gloss all around gives it such a look of class. These are also the first sealed speakers I’ve tried out.

After listening for a bit these are quite neutral/slightly v-shaped sound signature. The bass quality and extension is great on these and overall they sound most similar to the KEF Q100s. These have a better upper/mid bass kick and more extension than the KEF’s and that part of the sound is one of the strengths of these speakers.

The KEFs are mid forward and could use a sub, these give a more full range of sound but the mids sound slightly recessed in comparison. Both have great resolution and clarity.

The soundstage/imaging on these aren’t as good as the KEF or Chane’s, more middle of the pack.

Sound sig is slightly V-shaped

Pros:
  • Great cohesion from mids to bass
  • Right amount of upper to lower-mid bass that would be great to roll into a sub but you can get away without it

Cons:
  • Mids can sound a bit recessed
  • Smaller sound stage of the bunch

-------------------

Wharfedale Diamond 220

http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/product.php?pid=76

1 Meter Measurements



These are very nice sounding speakers and quite similar to the 10.2’s. The voicing is very similar, slightly cleaner in the mids but noticeably less bass oomph than the 10.2’s and extension, which is obvious for the smaller speaker.

The bass that is present is quite clean but the lower mids can seem a bit muddy at times. But a good plus on the bass is the down firing port makes it very easy to place these in a room and the extension is nice, not as good as the SuperOne’s but very close.

The imaging and soundstage on these are wonderful and there’s also a bit of treble roll off and tilt towards the bass.

What I noticed about both Wharfedales is they have a bit of a thicker sound than the rest of the speakers, not sure exactly how to explain it but they carry a bit of weight/body to their sound that most other speakers don’t have and just about all of the other speakers sound thing when quickly A/B’ing them except for the Elac B6’s.

These sound a bit warm.

Pros:
  • Quality mid-bass kick
  • Down firing bass makes these easy to place

Cons:
  • The lower mids get a bit muddy
  • Can get a bit hot at times on snares and female vocals

-------------------

HTD Level THREE

http://www.htd.com/Products/level-th...shelf-Speakers

1 Meter Measurements



The second ribbon/leaf/planar type of tweeter of the speakers so first thing I did was compare these directly to the Chane’s. And the two certainly sound different.

These are a much fuller and laid back sound with slightly rolled off highs when compared to the Chane’s but just about as great treble detail. The Chane’s are more treble heavy and a bit thinner sounding. The Chane’s extend better in both directions but the HTD’s have better bass quality on the way down.

What’s nice about these are they bring a weight of the sound like the Wharfedale’s but bring more treble clarity, a bit recessed/veiled in the mids as the bass comes in stronger on these speakers, but you can get away well with these for a 2.0 system.

This sound signature does seem to make these speakers have an interesting, life-like/natural sound to them that not all of the speakers can represent well. While other speakers aim to be more true to the recording these can make it feel a bit more real.

I’d say these speakers are warm sound signature.

Pros:
  • Great bass impact and dynamics
  • Good treble detail

Cons:
  • They can get occasionally slightly peaky/sibilant but only on certain recordings
  • Mids can seem a bit recessed/veiled at times

-------------------

Philharmonic AA

http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html

1 Meter Measurements



These speakers definitely hit well above their price bracket. Listening to these back and forth between the other speakers I’m thoroughly impressed. While they don’t have the clearest mids or the most detailed highs, they reproduce a full spectrum of sounds very well from highs to the bass making it one of the best speakers I’ve heard for just a 2.0 setup.

They’re a bit more clear than the Wharfedales or the HTD’s in the mids, about equal in treble detail as those two, and have a much better bass than the Chane’s or KEF or just about all the other speakers tested for using as a 2.0 System. Dennis did a great job with these.

One thing to note about other reviews I’ve read on a number of these speakers, some will say “you can get away without a subwoofer for these.” Such as for the Chane’s or NHT’s. And the thing is it’s true, when you listen to them on their own, you’ll enjoy the bass response, but when you listen to something like the Philharmonic AA’s in direct comparison, you do get the full range of sounds and the other speakers will sound lacking in the bass department. The only speaker with a better bass quality/quantity was possibly the Elac B6’s, but I had to send those back before these arrived, these win on mid/treble clarity vs the B6.

These are slightly warm but mostly neutral.

Pros:
  • Great reproduction of sound from treble to bass making them a great 2.0 selection
  • Price!

Cons:
  • The lower mids/upper bass can get just slightly muddy
  • Slightly recessed mids

-------------------

Wave Crest HVL-1

http://www.wavecrestaudio.com/produc...udspeaker-pair



For the second cheapest speaker of the bunch the certainly do quite well. The mids are very clear and probably the best part about these speakers. The highs aren’t as extended/airy/sparkly as the Chane’s or some of the other speakers but they are very easy to listen to.

The most noticeable about these versus the other speakers is these lack low end extension the most and it’s noticeable for a 2.0 system. Listening to some music with bass guitar you can hear the drop off on the low end of the notes.

If you’re building a budget 2.1 system these would be very hard to beat at this price point. Versus the AA’s I’d possibly pick these a 2.1 and pick the AA’s for a 2.0 setup but I haven’t heard the AA in a 2.1 yet so I’d save that judgement for your own ears. These sound very similar to the Marimba but with a bit more body to the sound that I personally enjoy.

Sound signature is very neutral

-------------------

Conclusion

I learned a ton about different speakers! Biggest two takeaways:

  • Leaf/Ribbon tweeters have crazy good treble extension
  • Bass output is heavily correlated to speaker size, for making a 2.0 system I would say anything smaller than a 6.5” woofer and a sub 45hz response you noticeably won’t be getting the full spectrum of sounds

And here's the conclusion of speakers thus far, again rather than picking a winner I'll compare sound signatures.

  • Wharfedale Diamond 10.2 - Solid mids/highs and huge bass output
  • Elac B6 - Dark sound sig, slightly less bass output than Wharfedale, better bass quality
  • Chane A1rx-c - Very neutral, slightly bright, amazing treble and bass extension
  • Energy RC-10 - Warmer/musical, slightly veiled in the mids/highs, solid mid-bass kick
  • KEF Q100 - Very neutral with bass extension between RC-10 and Chane's, would like slightly more bass impact, very resolving/clear mids
  • Music Hall Marimba - Extremely clear mids w/ great attack/decay, lacking bass, somewhat thin highs
  • NHT SuperOne - Mostly neutral but slightly V-shaped, very clean upper/mid bass that would roll into a subwoofer nicely or could get away with them used on it’s own
  • Wharfedale Diamond 220 - Very neutral and detailed sound, slightly muddy in lower mids, and slightly hot at times
  • HTD Level THREE - Laid back but still fairly clear sounding
  • Philharmonic AA - Wonderful reproduction of full spectrum of sounds, slightly recessed mids, not as treble detailed as the best but still good


-------------------

Odd Men Out

Out of curiosity I picked out two speakers that aren’t the normal $350 or less passive speakers to get an idea for what’s out there in comparison

  • Emotiva Airmotiv 6s ($399/$499)
  • Monitor Audio Silver RX2 (used) ($425/$1000) - Arriving Tuesday

-------------------

Emotiva Airmotiv 6s

https://emotiva.com/products/powered...rs/airmotiv-6s

18 Inch Measurements
1 Meter Measurements



HOLY F*** BASS! I didn’t know 2.0 speakers were capable of causing a bone rattling bass like this until I heard these. Listening to Daft Punk’s Doin’ It Right was the first time I could actually feel the bass, I in fact turned them down -4db on each speaker on the back because my neighbors would not be happy.

The mids and treble are still great quality, while not as clean as the KEF’s, Chane’s or NHT’s they’re so close that these are an obvious win for a 2.0 setup and if you can spend the $400 and were missing the bass in your speakers (especially for EDM) these will certainly fit your bill and there is no need for a subwoofer unless you really want to get that sub 40hz sound.

These also sound quite good nearfield and from listening at a distance.

What’s most noticeable about these vs. all of the passive speakers is that the soundstage is very much a flat wall and sounds “like a recording” where the other speakers create a sense of a stage, which makes sense as these are targeted for monitoring/mixing.

Pros:
  • VERY deep and high quality bass, sounds like there is a subwoofer here.

Cons:
  • Highs and mids not perfect but not bad
  • Being a monitor the soundstage is flat

-------------------

Monitor Audio Silver RX2

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/produ.../silver-rx/rx2



This speaker just ticked every box for me for the first time of all the speakers I’ve listened too, still not perfect as no speaker is but very well made. These look and feel like they cost more off the bat, the same piano gloss all over as the NHT’s but looks slightly nicer.

I can now see what other people meant by rated extension down to 40hz but being very distorted on some of the other speakers that produced sound that low. These extend low with great impact but cleaner than the other speakers tested that go this low. A subwoofer would pick up amazing for these right around 50hz but they aren’t begging for a subwoofer either.

The mids are very clear, and the highs are just slightly laid back which is the sound signature that I like. They may be just too laid back and get a bit muddy in the upper-mid/lower-treble transition but still sound great. It could be the crossover that they picked for this speaker wasn’t optimal.

Now this isn’t a fair comparison to the speakers above as these were $1000 new and I picked them up used for $425 almost three years old, but I was curious what would taking a step up give me and it was totally worth the money I paid, and I’d certainly pay $800+ for this sound.

Pros:
  • Great reproduction of the full sound spectrum while staying very clear
  • Very deep sound stage

Cons:
  • Not the widest soundstage
  • Attack/decay could be better but not bad
  • The upper-mid/lower treble can muddy together a tiny bit sometimes

-------------------

And that wraps it up for the speaker’s. Quite the exciting time to listen to these!

Last two notes

  • If the pictures ever go down contact me so I can re-upload them
  • I have each speaker stack ranked but I’m not going to post that to the forum as to not bias the outcomes of people’s decisions, you should base your decision on your sound tastes and specific system needs. That being said shoot me an email and I’ll send you my list if you want!
  • For anyone that's curious after all of this I decided to ball out and pickup Ascend Sierra-2's and am unbelievably happy with those, blows the rest out the water, but at the price I'd hope they would

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This is an excellent thread! Thank you for the info, have not read all 760+ comments/posts but did you break in any of the speakers as some are required 40+ hours? I know the Music Hall Marimbas really open up after that. Still need a sub though but pretty good for a diminutive sized cabinet. Thx again!
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post #788 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 09:53 AM
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Yes, the Marimbas are excellent overall and very underrated. A more appropriate comparison though would be with other speakers with a 5.25" woofer. The bass can't be expected to compete with 6.5" woofer designs, though I think the bass put out by the Marimbas -- for the woofer size -- is excellent and very well integrated with the tweeter. Overall, the have an extremely well balanced sound, especially the highs which aren't over pronounced or fatiguing, which means you can listen at moderately loud volumes for extended periods without ear strain. The speaker, although the design is pretty simplistic, is very well built and seems like it should last a long time.
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post #789 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:19 AM
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Please do NOT quote a post that long just for a 3-line response. Please edit.

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post #790 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:22 AM
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This is an excellent thread! Thank you for the info, have not read all 760+ comments/posts but did you break in any of the speakers as some are required 40+ hours? I know the Music Hall Marimbas really open up after that. Still need a sub though but pretty good for a diminutive sized cabinet. Thx again!
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeak...act-or-fiction

Speaker burn-in should only take a few seconds, or maybe minutes depending on the input signal.
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post #791 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:22 AM
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Excellent thread and much appreciated. I'm putting together a capable surround/music system for the basement and based partiallh on this thread I have chosen the Wharfedale 225 fronts, 210 rear and 220c center. I preferred to carry the same sonic signature all around and really like the Wharfedales musicality and presentation. Now to choose a sub.....

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post #792 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:33 AM
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@motrek ,
Concerning speaker burn-in... some materials are more stout than others, I'll follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
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post #793 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:43 AM
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@motrek ,
Concerning speaker burn-in... some materials are more stout than others, I'll follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
Some of the say 40+ hours because they know the longer you keep them and get used to them the more likely it is you will keep them.
Preferably break in takes longer than the return period.
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post #794 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 10:57 AM
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Yup, that's the goal for the unscrupulous speaker companies. Break-in required and they pray you run out of return/exchange time before you get there.

That said, I've never heard of a return being denied by any of them because the buyer hadn't had them long enough to break in.

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post #795 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 12:54 PM
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Ive never heard of break in being required for return. Its usually just a suggestion led to make the buyer believe they will improve over time.
If they sound like crap out of the box they will continue to sound like crap.
As far as unscrupulous nearly all speaker companies have some sort of suggested break in period. Its a standard scam.
I equate it to telling someone their new car will run better after 3000 miles.

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post #796 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 01:51 PM
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Then I give credit to KEF, because between my son & I we own 18 of their speakers and not one, in any of the documentation, mentions any break-in period. My cousin's Totem speakers, not so. From the manual:

"The speakers require at least 85-90 hours of actual music playing time as a minimal break-in period. During this time, refrain from playing them at very loud levels. You will notice a definite gradual improvement in the cohesiveness of the music reproduction as this occurs."

And the bold text is theirs.
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post #797 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KenM10759 View Post
Then I give credit to KEF, because between my son & I we own 18 of their speakers and not one, in any of the documentation, mentions any break-in period. My cousin's Totem speakers, not so. From the manual:

"The speakers require at least 85-90 hours of actual music playing time as a minimal break-in period. During this time, refrain from playing them at very loud levels. You will notice a definite gradual improvement in the cohesiveness of the music reproduction as this occurs."

And the bold text is theirs.
I guess I better jump on the band wagon and suggest a break-in period for my speakers. For the record, it's 5 minutes, and that occurs before they are shipped.
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post #798 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 03:05 PM
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Some of the say 40+ hours because they know the longer you keep them and get used to them the more likely it is you will keep them.
Preferably break in takes longer than the return period.
Heh. Interesting theory.

I always assumed the break-in period was for the owner's ears, not the speakers themselves.
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post #799 of 1009 Old 10-08-2016, 04:16 PM
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The drivers do need some time to loosen up and 'settle' to the flexibility where they'll be long term, but how long that actually takes is debatable. I have certainly observed that drivers can be somewhat stiff when speakers are brand new.
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The drivers do need some time to loosen up and 'settle' to the flexibility where they'll be long term, but how long that actually takes is debatable. I have certainly observed that drivers can be somewhat stiff when speakers are brand new.
How much that changes the sound is the real debate.
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post #801 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 11:16 AM
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I'm just going to leave these numbers here:

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm

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post #802 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 11:35 AM
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I'm just going to leave these numbers here:

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm
I don't think this article necessarily contradicts the Audioholics article.

If I understand the Audioholics article correctly, the conclusion is that the enclosure parameters dramatically overshadow whatever smallish changes might occur with the driver parameters before/after break-in, such that the variation before/after break-in is probably less than the manufacturing variation between two different speakers of exactly the same model. So getting stressed out about break-in (or even giving it a second thought) is probably pretty pointless.
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post #803 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 01:16 PM
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...I equate it to telling someone their new car will run better after 3000 miles.
Many engines and drive trains do have a break-in period that may last several thousand miles. During/after the break-in period, fuel mileage usually gets better.

The break-in period is very noticeable on Chane speakers. The tower speakers are more noticeable and take longer than the smaller speakers. Before break-in, the speakers sound as if they are out of phase, imaging and audio object placement suffers. After break-in, it all sounds cohesive. These traits are not subjective, they are objective.

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post #804 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 01:20 PM
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Many engines and drive trains do have a break-in period that may last several thousand miles. During/after the break-in period, fuel mileage usually gets better.
I know. Perhaps a bad comparison. An extra .1 mpg and 1 hp is probably more improvement than you would experience from speaker break in.
Both insignificant though.
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post #805 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by glennds View Post
The break-in period is very noticeable on Chane speakers. The tower speakers are more noticeable and take longer than the smaller speakers. Before break-in, the speakers sound as if they are out of phase, imaging and audio object placement suffers. After break-in, it all sounds cohesive. These traits are not subjective, they are objective.
Unless you can share measurements that prove that, it has to be subjective.

I'm on the fence about the benefits of break-in or how much is necessary. I think I've heard the benefits, but I don't know whether or not this is some combination of real, significant physical break-in; purely a psychoacoustic effect of adjusting to the sound; and/or just plain confirmation bias. But to suggest that anyone's personal anecdotal listening experience is somehow objective seems to me to be tweaking the definition of objective quite a bit.
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post #806 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 03:14 PM
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Unless you can share measurements that prove that, it has to be subjective ... to suggest that anyone's personal anecdotal listening experience is somehow objective seems to me to be tweaking the definition of objective quite a bit.
Objectivity is freedom from bias while data depends on imperfect resolution and quantification. If the subject is indeed unbiased, he's objective. Since this cannot be disproved, it's at best a coin toss whether it's the subject or the interlocutor who's objective.

Ironically, the assertion that X must be inherently nonexistent - inaudible in these cases - is, without evidence, subjective; it's not falsifiable. And even more interestingly, when independent findings are found to consistently agree after their finding, both in the phenomenon they address and in the language used to describe the phenomenon, none of it scientifically determined, then objective may again be an apt term.

As for science, there are mountains of scientific theory, just as there are mountains of abandoned scientific theories later supplanted by new knowledge. The objective finding can be a simple unbiased result - and many times, one that's accurately and independently confirmed, right down to the language and the particulars - just as it can be an official position. After all, sensory experience is part of science. The question is if that experience is consistent and repeatable.
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post #807 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 03:21 PM
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Objectivity is freedom from bias while data depends on imperfect resolution and quantification. If the subject is indeed unbiased, he's objective. Since this cannot be disproved, it's at best a coin toss whether it's the subject or the interlocutor who's objective.

Ironically, the assertion that X must be inherently nonexistent - inaudible in these cases - is, without evidence, subjective; it's not falsifiable. And even more interestingly, when independent findings are found to consistently agree after their finding, both in the phenomenon they address and in the language used to describe the phenomenon, none of it scientifically determined, then objective may again be an apt term.

As for science, there are mountains of scientific theory, just as there are mountains of abandoned scientific theories later supplanted by new knowledge. The objective finding can be a simple unbiased result - and many times, one that's accurately and independently confirmed, right down to the language and the particulars - just as it can be an official position. After all, sensory experience is part of science. The question is if that experience is consistent and repeatable.
You seem to have missed the 2nd part of my post that you didn't quote.

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post #808 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 03:48 PM
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You seem to have missed the 2nd part of my post that you didn't quote.
Didn't miss it, cel4145; just didn't find anything I could add to it. I think we said more or less the same thing where observation is concerned.

I just wanted to address objectivity. IMHO, examined carefully the topic of the "subjective" listener, I've consistently found, can just as easily qualify him as an objective party. Not universally, but certainly not infrequently.
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post #809 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 03:58 PM
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I'm just going to leave these numbers here:

http://www.gr-research.com/myths.htm
That "article" doesn't prove what you want it to prove, or anything else really. All it shows is that woofer parameters change a bit with temperature, generally in equal-but-opposite directions such that the net effect is de minimis. That is precisely what the author's measurements show.

Notice how the author - a known con-man who believes in magic capacitors and even magic speaker wire terminations! - doesn't even show enclosure simulations, just raw T/S parameters. A key component of a con is data left incomplete so as to mislead. There are no measurements of says nothing about frequency response or anything else besides raw T/S. And the T/S measurements show counterbalancing changes, such as Fs going down and Vas going up.

The bottom line only people who believe in "break in" are greasy sales-hacks and people who lack the knowledge base to refute them. Toole nailed this myth in Sound Reproduction.
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post #810 of 1009 Old 10-09-2016, 04:21 PM
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you guys on chane can send the speakers with the break-in time already done?
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