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post #31 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
...

Granted, the speaker sound like lobing crap but it hits 40KHz!

Just because a tweeter can hit 40KHz does not mean it "strains less" than one that smoothly hits 20KHz. ...
You are using a slightly different definition of "Strained" than the rest of us. We are not talking about Mechanical Strain, as you would get from low frequencies.

My CAR analogy illustrates the point nicely. If you are pushing something to the limits of its sound capability, then it is going to SOUND strained. If you are using it at half its capability, all things being equal, it is going to sound less strained.

A car that tops out at 80mph, is strained trying to sustain 70mph. A car that tops out at 120mph, is still cruising easy at 70mph. It is an analogy that works.

Although ... in the context as you defined it, I don't really disagree with anything you said.

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post #32 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
JBL has a speaker that crosses over to a super tweeter AT 20KHz

It is a horizontal MTM so to call it a "3-way center" they added a super tweeter at 20KHz to extend it to 40KHz.

Granted, the speaker sound like lobing crap but it hits 40KHz!

Just because a tweeter can hit 40KHz does not mean it "strains less" than one that smoothly hits 20KHz. If that were true, subwoofers would get damaged by 20 KHz test tones. Tweeters are damaged and get stressed by LOW frequencies, they are no different from any other speaker.

If you want a tweeter to be durable, get one that has a large voice coil, large surface area, high efficiency and a low Fs. You'll find those type tweeters can handle a lot of power but won't go to 40KHz. If you want the ultimate in reliability, use compression drivers and horns--they will blow your hearing rapidly before ever showing strain. They won't hit 40KHz but some of them have been running for 40 years without issue.
The JBL M2 compression driver, the D2 is claimed to have a frequency response to 40 killer hurts( Auto spell mistake, but I like it). Does it? Don't know and don't care. What I can hear of the frequency response is amazing, so who cares?
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post #33 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
JBL has a speaker that crosses over to a super tweeter AT 20KHz

It is a horizontal MTM so to call it a "3-way center" they added a super tweeter at 20KHz to extend it to 40KHz..
So they have a driver dedicated exclusively to frequencies that are typically not recorded on music or video soundtracks, and even if they were, are inaudible to human ears? Talk about hyped up marketing to an uneducated consumer base. I wonder if those "supertweeters" actually receive any power at all? Why would they?
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post #34 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by pcfriedrich View Post
So they have a driver dedicated exclusively to frequencies that are typically not recorded on music or video soundtracks, and even if they were, are inaudible to human ears? Talk about hyped up marketing to an uneducated consumer base. I wonder if those "supertweeters" actually receive any power at all? Why would they?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10848570

Maybe there's more to it than you might think?
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post #35 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
It is an analogy. Everyone else got it. The ability of the statement to be understood is unrelated to your ability to understand it.
It was a poor analogy, one that only served to muddy the waters, not to clarify them. I understood it just fine. Perhaps you don't understand why it is such a poor analogy?


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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I already acknowledge in my post that the IKON are better, or at least more expensive, speakers. But you can hear a distinct different in the sound due to the Super-Tweeter.

Quoting myself -

The both sound pretty good, but the IKON are a bit crisper and more detailed. Of course the IKON are also better speakers, though they have now been replaced by the Dali Opticon series.

The crossovers on the Dali Ikon 6 are at 700hz / 2.6khz / 14khz.

So, there is some value in speakers that go well above human hearing
.

Curious do you have anything to add on the original subject that might enlighten us all?

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Once again, the sound difference you hear in those Youtube videos may or may not be due to the presence of the super-tweeter. It may be due to differences below that 14kHz crossover to the supertweeter. And even if it is audibly different above 14kHz, that IN NO WAY proves that those differences are audible above 20kHz. That means, once again, that your statement "So, there is some value in speakers that go well above human hearing" does NOT follow from what you have presented.
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post #36 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You are using a slightly different definition of "Strained" than the rest of us. We are not talking about Mechanical Strain, as you would get from low frequencies.
Actually, he's using an entire appropriate definition of the word "strained." The one who isn't using an appropriate definition is you. And how do you conclude "the rest of us" are using your definition? I'm certainly not.

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
My CAR analogy illustrates the point nicely. If you are pushing something to the limits of its sound capability, then it is going to SOUND strained. If you are using it at half its capability, all things being equal, it is going to sound less strained.
Once again, no, it doesn't illustrate the point. Your car analogy initially tried to claim one car would have higher reliability (false, or unknown). Now you say "pushing something to the limits of its sound capability, then it is going to SOUND strained." What exactly is being pushed to the limits of its sound capability? What limits? What capability? And in what ways will it SOUND strained, ie, be audible, when a tweeter that can't reproduce >20kHz is fed a signal >20kHz? Using a tweeter at "half its capability" has little or nothing to do with the frequency being sent to it.

Strain, as pointed out to you by 18 Hurts, has far more to do with lower frequencies being pushed to a tweeter at high levels. That's when a tweeter "strains," and that's when a tweeter is at risk of damage, and that's when a tweeter often SOUNDS strained (due to increased THD in a very audible range, where our ears are very sensitive).

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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
A car that tops out at 80mph, is strained trying to sustain 70mph. A car that tops out at 120mph, is still cruising easy at 70mph. It is an analogy that works.
Why would one car "top out" at 80mph? What physical limitations would it have to restrict it so? Or is it limited by only a limiter? And what specific car actually does top out at 80mph? Make and model, please.

And how do those restrictions relate to a tweeter trying to move quicker than it is capable of?

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post #37 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10848570

Maybe there's more to it than you might think?
The "hypersonic effect". That is very interesting. It leaves me with a lot of questions, but that would steer this thread off topic. Definitely something I'm going to look into, though. So maybe, even if the microphone recording a cymbal crash is only rated with a FR up to 20kHz, there is still waning remnants picked up above that level, and a speaker more capable of producing those sounds is going to produce a more "pleasing effect"?...

That brings in the question, though, how capable are our amplifiers and speaker cables of transmitting the sound? Just looked at Onkyo's website, they say the receiver I randomly picked (NR-744) has a frequency response up to 100kHz, but advertise .08%THD only up to 20kHz. No specs given on the distortion at 40 or 100 kHz.
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post #38 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10848570

Maybe there's more to it than you might think?
I've seen that link thrown around this forum before. If I remember correctly, nobody was ever able to duplicate the results of that study.
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post #39 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by pcfriedrich View Post
The "hypersonic effect". That is very interesting. It leaves me with a lot of questions, but that would steer this thread off topic. Definitely something I'm going to look into, though. So maybe, even if the microphone recording a cymbal crash is only rated with a FR up to 20kHz, there is still waning remnants picked up above that level, and a speaker more capable of producing those sounds is going to produce a more "pleasing effect"?...

That brings in the question, though, how capable are our amplifiers and speaker cables of transmitting the sound? Just looked at Onkyo's website, they say the receiver I randomly picked (NR-744) has a frequency response up to 100kHz, but advertise .08%THD only up to 20kHz. No specs given on the distortion at 40 or 100 kHz.
Many amps can go well above 20kHz no problem. A fair number of tweeters can as well. But the redbook CD standard only goes to 22kHz. High-res (high sample rate) media can have higher frequency content in them, provided the original source material was recorded at high-sample-rate or with analog tape that was capable of recording past 20kHz (AND, as Bill pointed out, with microphones that go beyond 20kHz). Put all that together, and you're left with the conclusion that *most* material has little or no spectral content beyond 20 or 22kHz.
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post #40 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by datranz View Post
beaveav,
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Also, there are breakups in tweeters (actually in a lot of drivers especially metal drivers). Most are about to break up right on the edge of the high end, in fact some of them do go into the break up region as you can see by spikes in the response up around 16khz to 18khz. However, if the tweeter is functional up to 40khz, then it is not remotely close to breaking up at 20khz.

There are other parameters besides frequency of breakup that are more important in terms of audibility.

please do tell.
Frequency response, on axis, and off axis, up to 20kHz -- with the lower range of that (2-10kHz) likely being of more *audible* importance than the highest octave (10kHz to 20kHz).

THD, IMD, waterfall plots, and again, likely more importance in the lower range of the tweeter's passband than in the higher range (because there is more content at 2-3kHz than at 20kHz; because our ears are far more sensitive at 2-3kHz than at 20kHz; because many male adults can't hear past 15kHz or so).

Power handling of a tweeter at the low end of its range. Tweeters don't get fried by trying to reproduce a low-level signal high in frequency. They get fried trying to reproduce a high level signal low in their passband. Their audible "strain" is often because they are struggling with a high-level signal at the bottom of their passband (usually 2-3kHz).

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post #41 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 02:47 PM
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I've seen that link thrown around this forum before. If I remember correctly, nobody was ever able to duplicate the results of that study.
Yeah, I don't know. If attempts were tried they should be published. This was empirical evidence, not subjective, so should be a repeatable study. Thing is finding funding for stuff like that. Probably hard .
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post #42 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pcfriedrich View Post
The "hypersonic effect". That is very interesting. It leaves me with a lot of questions, but that would steer this thread off topic. Definitely something I'm going to look into, though. So maybe, even if the microphone recording a cymbal crash is only rated with a FR up to 20kHz, there is still waning remnants picked up above that level, and a speaker more capable of producing those sounds is going to produce a more "pleasing effect"?...

That brings in the question, though, how capable are our amplifiers and speaker cables of transmitting the sound? Just looked at Onkyo's website, they say the receiver I randomly picked (NR-744) has a frequency response up to 100kHz, but advertise .08%THD only up to 20kHz. No specs given on the distortion at 40 or 100 kHz.
Not off-topic I don't think. The question of whether extension above 20 kHz matters at all is pretty core to this discussion.
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post #43 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
...

Why would one car "top out" at 80mph? What physical limitations would it have to restrict it so? Or is it limited by only a limiter? And what specific car actually does top out at 80mph? Make and model, please.

And how do those restrictions relate to a tweeter trying to move quicker than it is capable of?
The ability of my statements to be understood are unrelated to your ability to understand them.

And while you are at it, look up "Moped Car". Though Moped is a brand name, it has become synonymous with a very specific type of motorbike and car.

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post #44 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Not off-topic I don't think. The question of whether extension above 20 kHz matters at all is pretty core to this discussion.
My questions were kind of off topic, like: "How high do the frequencies in Bali music go? As high as the 120kHz of the resonant ringing of a cymbal crash? Higher?".
"The article said the participants brain wave reactions to high frequency music was 'statistically significant'. Now, its been a couple of years since I took statistics, but I remember it doesn't take much to register data as 'statistically significant'. In fact, I just found this on Wikipedia's article on statistical significance: 'Researchers focusing solely on whether their results are statistically significant might report findings that are not substantive[34] and not replicable.[35] To gauge the research significance of their result, researchers are therefore encouraged to always report an effect size along with p-values. An effect size measure quantifies the strength of an effect...'?"
"What kind of instruments do they use in Bali to produce hypersonic music, and how did they discover these instruments were making music, when they are outside the range of human hearing?"
"Is the government using supersensitive microphones to send hypersonic subliminal messages over radio, television, and telephone signals?"
"What is the maximum frequency that has a psychological effect on humans?"
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post #45 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
I've seen that link thrown around this forum before. If I remember correctly, nobody was ever able to duplicate the results of that study.
Well, they're still at it in 2014
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0095464
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post #46 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...trasonics.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...um.com+oohashi

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post #47 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 04:54 PM
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I've got no dog in this hunt, but Ethan's rebuttal makes no sense to me, and that raises red flags as well.

The study he says was disproven was not based on subjects hearing anything. It showed EEG changes, not whether listeners could distinguish the ultrasonic content.

So either Ethan is referencing a different study or is confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
Quote:Originally Posted by kiwi2 

Here is some interesting research done involving brain scans while adding or removing frequencies above 20 kHz and suggest precisely what I had suspected.


You already got good answers, and I can save you some searching and reading. The quote below from my Audio Expert book explains the problem with the Oohashi tests.

--Ethan
Quote:There was also a study by Tsutomu Oohashi that's often cited by audiophiles as proof that we can hear or otherwise perceive ultrasonic content. The problem with this study is they used one loudspeaker to play many high-frequency components at once, so IM distortion in the tweeters created difference frequencies within the audible range. When the Oohashi experiment was repeated by Shogo Kiryu and Kaoru Ashihara using six separate speakers, none of the test subjects were able to distinguish the ultrasonic content. This is from their summary:


When the stimulus was divided into six bands of frequencies and presented through six loudspeakers in order to reduce intermodulation distortions, no subject could detect any ultrasounds. It was concluded that addition of ultrasounds might affect sound impression by means of some nonlinear interaction that might occur in the loudspeakers.


I've also seen claims proving the audibility of ultrasonic content where a 15 KHz sine wave is played, then switched to a square wave. Proponents believe that the quality change heard proves the audibility of ultrasonic frequencies. But this doesn't take into account that loudspeakers and power amplifiers can be nonlinear at those high frequencies, thereby affecting the audible spectrum. Further, most hardware generators used to create test tones output a fixed peak level. When the peak (not average) levels are the same, a square wave has 2 dB more energy at the fundamental frequency than a sine wave. So, of course, the waves could sound different.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that few microphones, and even fewer loudspeakers, can handle frequencies much higher 20 KHz. Aside from tiny-diaphragm condenser microphones meant for acoustic testing, the response of most microphones and speakers is down several dB by 20 KHz if not lower.
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post #48 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pcfriedrich View Post
My questions were kind of off topic, like: "How high do the frequencies in Bali music go? As high as the 120kHz of the resonant ringing of a cymbal crash? Higher?".
"The article said the participants brain wave reactions to high frequency music was 'statistically significant'. Now, its been a couple of years since I took statistics, but I remember it doesn't take much to register data as 'statistically significant'. In fact, I just found this on Wikipedia's article on statistical significance: 'Researchers focusing solely on whether their results are statistically significant might report findings that are not substantive[34] and not replicable.[35] To gauge the research significance of their result, researchers are therefore encouraged to always report an effect size along with p-values. An effect size measure quantifies the strength of an effect...'?"
"What kind of instruments do they use in Bali to produce hypersonic music, and how did they discover these instruments were making music, when they are outside the range of human hearing?"
"Is the government using supersensitive microphones to send hypersonic subliminal messages over radio, television, and telephone signals?"
"What is the maximum frequency that has a psychological effect on humans?"
Hmmm. This is why I still where my tin foil hat...
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post #49 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 08:19 PM
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Hmmm. This is why I still where my tin foil hat...
Ha, the jokes on you! The government forced the tin foil business to switch to ineffective aluminum foil years ago so supersonic mind control continues to effect everyone!
However, it is actually the peanut butter industry that perfected this technology and caused the government to do this. They also have the government do random acts of stupidity just for their own amusement.
Think about it... The one thing we all have in common (unless we are allergic) is we all love peanut butter! Coincidence? I think not!!!


Cheers,
Kurt (aka KEW)
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post #50 of 83 Old 01-20-2016, 08:45 PM
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I've got no dog in this hunt, but Ethan's rebuttal makes no sense to me, and that raises red flags as well.

The study he says was disproven was not based on subjects hearing anything. It showed EEG changes, not whether listeners could distinguish the ultrasonic content.

So either Ethan is referencing a different study or is confused.
You can ask Ethan if you want. I don't have a dog in the hunt either.

I was merely showing that the paper you linked has been discussed on AVS numerous times (see my second link for that). I haven't read the studies myself in detail (just skimmed through them), nor have I read much of the discussions of them on AVS (just skimmed through some of those threads as well).

It does show that those papers are at best controversial. If you read through some of the threads in my second link, you'll probably find lots of criticisms of the paper(s).
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post #51 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
You can ask Ethan if you want. I don't have a dog in the hunt either.

I was merely showing that the paper you linked has been discussed on AVS numerous times (see my second link for that). I haven't read the studies myself in detail (just skimmed through them), nor have I read much of the discussions of them on AVS (just skimmed through some of those threads as well).

It does show that those papers are at best controversial. If you read through some of the threads in my second link, you'll probably find lots of criticisms of the paper(s).
Yeah, they could be poorly done or bogus. I don't have enough interest to figure it out . I don't buy speakers for extension above 20 kHz, so no matter to me. A quick search brought those up, so I figured I'd post them up. It seems we don't know everything about audio perception , so I always leave an open mind when it comes to these things.
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post #52 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
...

... even if it is audibly different above 14kHz, that IN NO WAY proves that those differences are audible above 20kHz.
Odd because I never made that statement. I said there was value, I never said you could hear above 20khz. The advantage is that you are not pushing the tweeters as close to their limit. You keep them well within their working range and well out of their breakup range.


Quote:
That means, once again, that your statement "So, there is some value in speakers that go well above human hearing" does NOT follow from what you have presented.
You can claim you understand it all your want ... but... clearly you don't. And thank for your immense contribution to the Subject being discussed ... so very enlightening.

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post #53 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I've got no dog in this hunt, but Ethan's rebuttal makes no sense to me, and that raises red flags as well.

The study he says was disproven was not based on subjects hearing anything. It showed EEG changes, not whether listeners could distinguish the ultrasonic content.

So either Ethan is referencing a different study or is confused.
Equally I have no pony in this race, and am not all that interested in pushing the discussion off on tangents. So I will make one small comment.

There is a difference between what you can perceive and what you can hear. You might perceive ultra-high frequencies without being able to consciously hear them.

There is a YouTube video, though I would struggle to find it, where a guy shows a spectrum graph of a vinyl album vs a CD.

Obviously the CD has a 'brick wall' filter eliminating everything above 20khz. The impressive thing was the Vinyl had lots of content above 20khz, though of course, as the frequency went higher, the level went down, but it was clearly there on the graph. For what it is worth, these were real-time graphs, not a captured snapshot.

But that is another dangerous tangent.

My only point is, when I read a similar study a few years back, they were claiming ultra-high frequency content could be perceived. People could tell when it was there and when it was not even though they couldn't consciously hear it.

For whatever that might be worth.

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post #54 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
So either Ethan is referencing a different study or is confused.
LOL, I assure you I'm not confused. I mentioned the Oohashi report and its debunking because the OP mentioned supertweeters, then krabapple mentioned Oohashi in Post #2 of that thread, then arnyk linked to the debunking article but it's for-pay so I gave more information.

--Ethan
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post #55 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Winer View Post
LOL, I assure you I'm not confused. I mentioned the Oohashi report and its debunking because the OP mentioned supertweeters, then krabapple mentioned Oohashi in Post #2 of that thread, then arnyk linked to the debunking article but it's for-pay so I gave more information.

--Ethan
Well I'm glad to hear you're not confused! . I did leave the second option for just that reason.
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post #56 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 01:21 PM
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So basically these articles are saying that you'll lose weight and blissfully-hallucinate in the presence of ultrasonics, especially if >30kHz;
and after 0.5-2 minutes of "regular" music you will have a negative brain response.

Interesting!

This could explain why people like LP's in pure-analog mode.

Unfortunately...
Unless you are listening to specially-recorded Bluray audio or other beyond-CD Hi-Res files, and played back on >30kHz speakers and a DAC with at least +96khz support and an amplifier of the same, then you won't get this effect with any digital audio.

I'll have to try some hi-res and see what happens to me. Not gonna hold my breath for a miracle though...
My system is supposedly 40-50kHz capable. All I know is it measures flat to the limit of my UMIK-1 in 48kHz sampling mode.

Given the air absorption of high frequencies, you probably don't want to sit much more than 10ft back from the speakers in order to experience ultrasonics.
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 01-21-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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post #57 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Equally I have no pony in this race, and am not all that interested in pushing the discussion off on tangents. So I will make one small comment.

There is a difference between what you can perceive and what you can hear. You might perceive ultra-high frequencies without being able to consciously hear them.

There is a YouTube video, though I would struggle to find it, where a guy shows a spectrum graph of a vinyl album vs a CD.

Obviously the CD has a 'brick wall' filter eliminating everything above 20khz. The impressive thing was the Vinyl had lots of content above 20khz, though of course, as the frequency went higher, the level went down, but it was clearly there on the graph. For what it is worth, these were real-time graphs, not a captured snapshot.

But that is another dangerous tangent.

My only point is, when I read a similar study a few years back, they were claiming ultra-high frequency content could be perceived. People could tell when it was there and when it was not even though they couldn't consciously hear it.

For whatever that might be worth.

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I guess you didn't click on the link that Gooddoc furnished, did you?

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post #58 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
I guess you didn't click on the link that Gooddoc furnished, did you?
You mean the link containing this statement -

"Positron emission tomography measurements revealed that, when an HFC and an LFC were presented together, the rCBF in the brain stem and the left thalamus increased significantly compared with a sound lacking the HFC above 22 kHz but that was otherwise identical."


That says precisely what I said. While the sound couldn't be heard, it could be perceived.

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post #59 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
You mean the link containing this statement -

"Positron emission tomography measurements revealed that, when an HFC and an LFC were presented together, the rCBF in the brain stem and the left thalamus increased significantly compared with a sound lacking the HFC above 22 kHz but that was otherwise identical."


That says precisely what I said. While the sound couldn't be heard, it could be perceived.

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Great. Next you can click on the links I provided yesterday afternoon in this thread, the links that discuss various flaws with that study. And then you'll be caught up with the rest of us and won't feel the need to post something like it's new when it was already brought up.

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post #60 of 83 Old 01-21-2016, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by beaveav View Post
Great. Next you can click on the links I provided yesterday afternoon in this thread, the links that discuss various flaws with that study. And then you'll be caught up with the rest of us and won't feel the need to post something like it's new when it was already brought up.

You mean this study -

"When an HFC above approximately 32 kHz was applied, Alpha-2 EEG increased significantly compared to when only audible sound was applied..."

The extension of that is this -

"...when an HFC below approximately 32 kHz was applied, the Alpha-2 EEG decreased..."


A decrease still represents a perception response, just not in the positive direction, but a response none the less.

Further, the final conclusion was -

"These findings suggest that the emergence of the hypersonic effect depends on the frequencies of inaudible HFC."

It does not say the perception does not exist, only that the nature of the perception is Frequency dependent.

No response or perception would have meant the readings would be unchanged. They weren't, they changed, just in different directions depending on the frequency. But they changed, they did not remain the same.

Steve/bluewizard

Last edited by bluewizard; 01-21-2016 at 05:13 PM.
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