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todd7764 01-31-2016 10:49 AM

Speaker advice
 
Look time lurker here guys- hello!

I am in the process of upgrading my a/v systems and have arrived at a bit of an impasse. My current system consists of:

Pioneer VSX 1120k receiver
Pioneer BDP-320 Blu-ray
Sony BDP-S6500 Blu-ray
LG 55EG9100 OLED TV
Def Tech BP8B
Def Tech Procenter 1000
Fluance surrounds
BIC PL200 subwoofer

I just ordered a Hsu VTF15H Mk 2 subwoofer to upgrade my sub.

I will be ordering either a Yamaha rx-a2040 or Marantz sr7009 receiver.

I have a 5.1 surround configuration in a large room. Use is about 75/25 home theater/music. I will be eventually adding speakers for an Atmos configuration.

I can't decide on speakers. First, I considered ordering the Fluance Signature series. Then I was thinking of ordering Tekton Lore speakers (and moving the Def Tech BP8Bs to surround duty), but I learned from reading here and a couple of other forums that they may not be as good as they initially appeared. Now, I'm looking at Emptek Impression R55ti, R56ci, R5bi surround package or Chane A5rx-c, A2rx-c, A1rx-c package. I was also considering Klipsch RF-260's. Or, I could just stick with my current Def Tech speakers, at least until I hear what they sound like with the new receiver and sub.

If I do upgrade the speakers, I need to keep the cost less than $1400.

What would you do?

commsysman 01-31-2016 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41139794)
Look time lurker here guys- hello!

I am in the process of upgrading my a/v systems and have arrived at a bit of an impasse. My current system consists of:

Pioneer VSX 1120k receiver
Pioneer BDP-320 Blu-ray
Sony BDP-S6500 Blu-ray
LG 55EG9100 OLED TV
Def Tech BP8B
Def Tech Procenter 1000
Fluance surrounds
BIC PL200 subwoofer

I just ordered a Hsu VTF15H Mk 2 subwoofer to upgrade my sub.

I will be ordering either a Yamaha rx-a2040 or Marantz sr7009 receiver.

I have a 5.1 surround configuration in a large room. Use is about 75/25 home theater/music. I will be eventually adding speakers for an Atmos configuration.

I can't decide on speakers. First, I considered ordering the Fluance Signature series. Then I was thinking of ordering Tekton Lore speakers (and moving the Def Tech BP8Bs to surround duty), but I learned from reading here and a couple of other forums that they may not be as good as they initially appeared. Now, I'm looking at Emptek Impression R55ti, R56ci, R5bi surround package or Chane A5rx-c, A2rx-c, A1rx-c package. I was also considering Klipsch RF-260's. Or, I could just stick with my current Def Tech speakers, at least until I hear what they sound like with the new receiver and sub.

If I do upgrade the speakers, I need to keep the cost less than $1400.

What would you do?


I think your current speakers are at least as good as the others you mentioned, and MUCH better than the Klipsch or Fluance speakers. Your new subwoofer will be a major upgrade, of course.

My advice is to keep the speakers you have, except get a pair of the Def Tech Studio Monitor 45 speakers to replace the Fluance surrounds.

Your real main problem is that your receiver does not have the kind of power supply to drive your low-impedance speakers. This restricts dynamics and makes the sound dull, flat, and uninvolving. A better receiver will make those speakers perform much much better!

I suggest that you get the NAD T758 receiver, which in my experience is better-sounding than the Marantz and MUCH better than the Yamaha (ugh) or Pioneer. Your speakers, by the way, really must be considered 4 ohm speakers, since they have that impedance at several frequencies. The Yamaha won't even begin to drive 4 ohm speakers due to its inadequate power supply design. Look at the published impedance curves for your speakers if you don't think they are 4 ohm speakers.

The NAD is designed for low-impedance speakers, and has large current reserves for excellent dynamics, which makes it by far the best choice for those speakers. Its superior drive will make them come alive. Once you hear how good those speakers sound with the NAD receiver, you may even decide that Atmos is not going to add much.

todd7764 01-31-2016 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commsysman (Post 41140594)
I suggest that you get the NAD T758 receiver, which in my experience is better-sounding than the Marantz and MUCH better than the Yamaha (ugh).

I looked at the T758 (and the 748v2), but I want Atmos and a couple other features (HD Radio, Wifi Direct, room correction) that the NAD receivers don't have.

commsysman 01-31-2016 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41140954)
I looked at the T758 (and the 748v2), but I want Atmos and a couple other features (HD Radio, Wifi Direct, room correction) that the NAD receivers don't have.


Atmos is nothing but a gimmick to try and make crappy systems sound a bit better.

Get good speakers and a good receiver and there is no need for that kind of band-aid approach.

todd7764 01-31-2016 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commsysman (Post 41141058)
Atmos is nothing but a gimmick to try and make crappy systems sound a bit better.

hmn, ok.... back to the speakers...

Kini62 01-31-2016 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41141986)
hmn, ok.... back to the speakers...

As you've just read commsysman just spews forth personal opinion based on what he reads on the internet with no first hand knowledge of 99% of what he comments on.

So, back to the speakers. Is there something lacking in your current setup? IME the Klipsch make great HT speakers and are pretty good for music too. The new RP line is reported to be a little smoother for music than the previous Reference model.

Maybe get the front 3 from Crutchfield so you have 60 day trial period to see for yourself how they work. The BPs would make pretty nice surround speakers.

mthomas47 01-31-2016 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41141986)
hmn, ok.... back to the speakers...


Hi,

First, I don't think that a different AVR will make a huge difference in the sound of your speakers, although your bass should improve enormously with your new sub. I will qualify that to add that Audyssey XT-32 may make a big difference in improving the way that your speakers and your sub interact with your room. So, that part could be a bit of a game changer. But, to me, the real question is, how do you like the sound of your DefTechs?

If you are pleased with their inherent sound signature, that's one thing. If there is something about them you don't care for, that's entirely different. Are you just wondering if there is something better out there? What we like in the sound of speakers can be pretty much an individualistic thing, so it's a little hard to advise someone else.

If I were going to buy the Marantz, I might consider waiting until I had XT-32 enabled before making a decision on the DefTechs. But if there is something specific sound-wise that you are looking for, I think you may have to audition some other speakers. Among others you might want to consider are the SVS Prime series. One of the advantages with a company like that is the 45-day in-home trial, with free shipping both ways. In-home is the best way to audition speakers, in my opinion.

My response was a little more random than I would really like but I'm not quite sure what you are looking for here. :)

Regards,
Mike

todd7764 01-31-2016 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kini62 (Post 41142194)
So, back to the speakers. Is there something lacking in your current setup? IME the Klipsch make great HT speakers and are pretty good for music too. The new RP line is reported to be a little smoother for music than the previous Reference model.

Maybe get the front 3 from Crutchfield so you have 60 day trial period to see for yourself how they work. The BPs would make pretty nice surround speakers.

I wouldn't say there's anything "lacking" per se, but I have the upgrade bug right now. If anything, the BP8B's lack "presence"; what I mean is, the system if for a fairly large room and they don't "fill the room" with sound as much as I'd like. That may change once I hook up my new, more powerful receiver and sub, though.

One nice thing I like about the Klipsch RP-260's is the add-on Atmos speakers I can get for them later (when I expand to a full Atmos set-up). I think I'd like the sound of them as well, although I have not actually heard them. I have heard lower end Klipsch speakers and enjoyed them. The bad thing about the Klipsch is that it would be my most expensive option at this point- about $1230 for LCR only, no surrounds.

I thought about auditioning the speakers in-home, but I'm hoping to research it well enough that I make a good initial decision. I don't like the idea of having to take down, re-box, and ship speakers back if I don't like them. I do like that option to be available, just hope to avoid it.

todd7764 01-31-2016 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mthomas47 (Post 41142746)
Hi,

First, I don't think that a different AVR will make a huge difference in the sound of your speakers, although your bass should improve enormously with your new sub. I will qualify that to add that Audyssey XT-32 may make a big difference in improving the way that your speakers and your sub interact with your room. So, that part could be a bit of a game changer. But, to me, the real question is, how do you like the sound of your DefTechs?

If you are pleased with their inherent sound signature, that's one thing. If there is something about them you don't care for, that's entirely different. Are you just wondering if there is something better out there? What we like in the sound of speakers can be pretty much an individualistic thing, so it's a little hard to advise someone else.

If I were going to buy the Marantz, I might consider waiting until I had XT-32 enabled before making a decision on the DefTechs. But if there is something specific sound-wise that you are looking for, I think you may have to audition some other speakers. Among others you might want to consider are the SVS Prime series. One of the advantages with a company like that is the 45-day in-home trial, with free shipping both ways. In-home is the best way to audition speakers, in my opinion.

My response was a little more random than I would really like but I'm not quite sure what you are looking for here. :)

Regards,
Mike

Thanks for the input. I don't expect a huge change with the receiver, maybe just incremental improvement. Regarding the Def Techs, they sound ok, I'm just a little underwhelmed with how they "fill the room" with sound. I could live with them, but I think I could do better for this space.

I do like the SVS Prime series (a lot actually), but they are just out of my price range. For a 5.0 setup, they are over $1500. I looked hard at them, also for a subwoofer, but think I can get a little better value for the dollar with Emptek or Chane.

mthomas47 01-31-2016 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41142778)
I wouldn't say there's anything "lacking" per se, but I have the upgrade bug right now. If anything, the BP8B's lack "presence"; what I mean is, the system if for a fairly large room and they don't "fill the room" with sound as much as I'd like. That may change once I hook up my new, more powerful receiver and sub, though.

One nice thing I like about the Klipsch RP-260's is the add-on Atmos speakers I can get for them later (when I expand to a full Atmos set-up). I think I'd like the sound of them as well, although I have not actually heard them. I have heard lower end Klipsch speakers and enjoyed them. The bad thing about the Klipsch is that it would be my most expensive option at this point- about $1230 for LCR only, no surrounds.

I thought about auditioning the speakers in-home, but I'm hoping to research it well enough that I make a good initial decision. I don't like the idea of having to take down, re-box, and ship speakers back if I don't like them. I do like that option to be available, just hope to avoid it.


I don't blame you on the re-boxing part, but research won't tell you what you like in the sound. Based on what you are saying about your current speakers, though, Klipsch would be a good option. SVS would still be in the game, too, except for price. I would concentrate on getting the three speakers in your front soundstage right, if I were you, even though that means spending your available funds right now.

If you don't get the front soundstage pretty good, I don't know that simply adding more speakers to get to an Atmos system will satisfy you. For now, you could just re-purpose your DefTechs for surround duty, and build slowly as you are able to. With three new front speakers, a new sub, and a new AVR, you should have a pretty substantial upgrade right there.

pcfriedrich 01-31-2016 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by commsysman (Post 41141058)
Atmos is nothing but a gimmick to try and make crappy systems sound a bit better.

Get good speakers and a good receiver and there is no need for that kind of band-aid approach.

That's gotta be one of the most uninformed statements I've ever read.


So, there aren't good receivers that come with Atmos? I've seen some pretty high-end Atmos gear.

Zorba922 01-31-2016 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41143034)
I do like the SVS Prime series (a lot actually), but they are just out of my price range. For a 5.0 setup, they are over $1500. I looked hard at them, also for a subwoofer, but think I can get a little better value for the dollar with Emptek or Chane.

Very true regarding the SVS (the cost of the "free" return shipping is likely already built-in) and EMPTek! With the Chanes you need to get a shipping quote because it adds a hefty bit to the price (EMPTek's speakers come with free one way shipping); the Chanes do seem to be very good speakers by most accounts. There are other high-value choices as well: Ascend, Hsu, etc.

btw, EMPTek is having a B-stock sale right now, so they are an even better value than usual:
http://emptek.com/bstockZ1744.php

todd7764 01-31-2016 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba922 (Post 41144050)
Very true regarding the SVS (the cost of the "free" return shipping is likely already built-in) and EMPTek! With the Chanes you need to get a shipping quote because it adds a hefty bit to the price (EMPTek's speakers come with free one way shipping); the Chanes do seem to be very good speakers by most accounts. There are other high-value choices as well: Ascend, Hsu, etc.

btw, EMPTek is having a B-stock sale right now, so they are an even better value than usual:
http://emptek.com/bstockZ1744.php

Yes, I saw that. I'm somewhat hesitant to buy b-stock for the towers since any cosmetic blemishes could be visible. However, for the surrounds and center channel I'd be more open to it. Good catch regarding shipping cost on the Chanes- I need to check that out.

bgtighe23 01-31-2016 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41144586)
Yes, I saw that. I'm somewhat hesitant to buy b-stock for the towers since any cosmetic blemishes could be visible. However, for the surrounds and center channel I'd be more open to it. Good catch regarding shipping cost on the Chanes- I need to check that out.

Give them a call and talk about why they are B-Stock. They are usually so minor, but enough that Emp/RBH doesn't want to sell them as new because they are that type of company.

Zorba922 01-31-2016 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41144586)
Yes, I saw that. I'm somewhat hesitant to buy b-stock for the towers since any cosmetic blemishes could be visible. However, for the surrounds and center channel I'd be more open to it. Good catch regarding shipping cost on the Chanes- I need to check that out.

Manufacturers and vendors will often designate merchandise that they simply want to get rid of quickly as "B-stock" or "refurbished" or "demo" so that it doesn't drive down the market price and perceived value of their product. In this case, EMPTek/RBH is said to be getting ready to roll out a big update on the Impression series in the next few months, so that may have something to do with it.

FWIW, the two times I bought non-new speakers ("B-stock" Ascends and "Demo" Wharfedales), they were in pristine condition, not a single scratch or blemish anywhere. Packaging was also pristine, and the Wharfedales required the full 20-30 hour break-in period (can't remember if the Ascends needed it or not). It's a very good calculated risk, IMO.

todd7764 01-31-2016 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgtighe23 (Post 41144674)
Give them a call and talk about why they are B-Stock. They are usually so minor, but enough that Emp/RBH doesn't want to sell them as new because they are that type of company.

Good idea- I'll give them a call tomorrow.

todd7764 01-31-2016 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba922 (Post 41145114)
Manufacturers and vendors will often designate merchandise that they simply want to get rid of quickly as "B-stock" or "refurbished" or "demo" so that it doesn't drive down the market price and perceived value of their product. In this case, EMPTek/RBH is said to be getting ready to roll out a big update on the Impression series in the next few months, so that may have something to do with it.

FWIW, the two times I bought non-new speakers ("B-stock" Ascends and "Demo" Wharfedales), they were in pristine condition, not a single scratch or blemish anywhere. Packaging was also pristine, and the Wharfedales required the full 20-30 hour break-in period (can't remember if the Ascends needed it or not). It's a very good calculated risk, IMO.

I think I did see somewhere that RBH is bringing out a new version/line of the Impression series, so they may very well be blowing out their old inventory as "b-stock". That raises another question, though: should I wait for the new line? ARGH!!!

Funny you mentioned Wharfedales. I was set on ordering a pair of Diamond 10.7 towers from music direct for $799 last week only to discover they had sold out when I went to place the order.

By the way, are any of you familiar with the Kef Q700 series speakers? A4L has a nice sale on them. I still have a pair of old Kef bookshelf speakers (the 303 mk II?) dating back 25 years. They actually still sound half-way decent. :)

mthomas47 01-31-2016 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41145922)
I think I did see somewhere that RBH is bringing out a new version/line of the Impression series, so they may very well be blowing out their old inventory as "b-stock". That raises another question, though: should I wait for the new line? ARGH!!!

Funny you mentioned Wharfedales. I was set on ordering a pair of Diamond 10.7 towers from music direct for $799 last week only to discover they had sold out when I went to place the order.

By the way, are any of you familiar with the Kef Q700 series speakers? A4L has a nice sale on them. I still have a pair of old Kef bookshelf speakers (the 303 mk II?) dating back 25 years. They actually still sound half-way decent. :)


There is always something new coming out. Hard to know whether to wait, or to jump on something you like now, if it's at a good enough price. I have read mixed reviews on the Kef Q7000, but don't have any personal experience with them. I did a quick search to confirm my impression of mixed reviews, though.

ALtlOff 01-31-2016 03:48 PM

If it were me I'd follow one of your first instincts, get your new Sub and receiver before you start making decisions on speakers.

Also, exactly how big is your room, I know the DefTech BP8's and it sort of surprises me that they can't fill a space, I'd be really interested on seeing how you have them setup, plus one thing I can tell you for sure is that your Center is a weak point as far as your Front 3 go.

Once you get the new Sub and AVR, play with the placement of your Fronts, including toe in and space from the front wall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying too talk you into keeping the DefTech's if they're truly not what your looking for in sound, but I do think it would be counter intuitive to start spending money until your sure what your looking for or what exactly your current setup is lacking, to you.

Zorba922 01-31-2016 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41145922)
I think I did see somewhere that RBH is bringing out a new version/line of the Impression series, so they may very well be blowing out their old inventory as "b-stock". That raises another question, though: should I wait for the new line? ARGH!!!

Funny you mentioned Wharfedales. I was set on ordering a pair of Diamond 10.7 towers from music direct for $799 last week only to discover they had sold out when I went to place the order.

By the way, are any of you familiar with the Kef Q700 series speakers? A4L has a nice sale on them. I still have a pair of old Kef bookshelf speakers (the 303 mk II?) dating back 25 years. They actually still sound half-way decent. :)

No, haven't heard the KEFs. But it's too bad the Wharfedales were sold out, because they couldn't be more different from your current Def Techs, so I would've been extremely curious to hear how you'd like them. People sometimes have almost as strong a love-hate reaction to them as they do towards Klipsch...just for the opposite reason, lol.

I think the updated version of the 10.7 is the 240, just $100 more for the alleged "demo"---
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-372760-...lack-demo.aspx

Although you might be perfectly happy with the 10.5 or 230, for a couple hundred bucks less.

Of course, the cheapest way to experiment to see if the Wharfedale sound suits your tastes, would be to order a pair of their bookshelves...return shipping would be probably 1/2 or 1/3 as much as on a pair of towers.

Another thought: for sheer "room-filling" capability, the Ascend 340SE would be a good bet---they have higher sensitivity than the Wharfedales and thus should be able to get louder with the same power. And that's quality loudness, with minimal distortion and excellent detail and soundstaging. I had them for my front stage over 10 years ago, in a huge 2nd floor, open plan living room with 18 foot cathedral ceilings, and they had no trouble filling it up with very natural and neutral sound, spectacular for HT and decent for music (my personal tastes run more towards the warmth that Wharfedales produce).

adam2434 01-31-2016 04:41 PM

I own both the Def Tech BP10B and Klipsch RP-280F, so can speak from extensive personal experience.

The Klipsch are more detailed/clear/dynamic, and have a more forward/bright sound. However, this is a double-edged sword. They bring out details that are lost on other speakers I've owned in their price range, but they can sound a bit shouty at high levels with certain material. My comments are based on music, not video material.

For 75% HT, I think the Klipsch RP series is worth consideration. Their dynamics and detail would be an upgrade in the HT context, IMO.

With any speaker option, auditioning in your room with your content is the best way to determine if a speaker is an upgrade.

todd7764 01-31-2016 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba922 (Post 41147474)
I think the updated version of the 10.7 is the 240, just $100 more for the alleged "demo"---
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-372760-...lack-demo.aspx

Although you might be perfectly happy with the 10.5 or 230, for a couple hundred bucks less.

Of course, the cheapest way to experiment to see if the Wharfedale sound suits your tastes, would be to order a pair of their bookshelves...return shipping would be probably 1/2 or 1/3 as much as on a pair of towers.

Another thought: for sheer "room-filling" capability, the Ascend 340SE would be a good bet---they have higher sensitivity than the Wharfedales and thus should be able to get louder with the same power. And that's quality loudness, with minimal distortion and excellent detail and soundstaging. I had them for my front stage over 10 years ago, in a huge 2nd floor, open plan living room with 18 foot cathedral ceilings, and they had no trouble filling it up with very natural and neutral sound, spectacular for HT and decent for music (my personal tastes run more towards the warmth that Wharfedales produce).

The 10.7's were on sale for $799/pair (new) which seemed like a really good deal.

The Ascends look nice and I do like that they are made in the USA. I also like that they make several lines of speakers for available future upgrade paths. But I don't like putting my front speakers on stands. I want towers.

My plan at this point is to check with Emptek tomorrow regarding their B-stock and a couple other questions. I think that I'm going to take the advice earlier to wait until I get the receiver and sub installed before I decide on the other speakers. I may be better off saving up some more money to increase my budget.

Do any of the ID speaker manufacturers have a big sale around this time of year or during springtime?

Zorba922 01-31-2016 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by todd7764 (Post 41148738)
The Ascends look nice and I do like that they are made in the USA. I also like that they make several lines of speakers for available future upgrade paths. But I don't like putting my front speakers on stands. I want towers.

Do any of the ID speaker manufacturers have a big sale around this time of year or during springtime?

If your preference for towers is visual rather than aural, you can give the 340s a tower "look" with their pedestal stands---which have the added functionality of being fillable with +100lbs of sand or metal shot, in case you have small kids or frisky dogs, in addition to keeping the lowest woofer over 24" off the ground, away from any curious little hands. (Some people also swear that there are sonic benefits of having speakers on top of heavier stands---I find this kind of dubious, but there are many strange beliefs in this hobby, lol.)

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/image..._stand1_hr.jpg
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...stlcmt340.html

Regarding ID sales, they are usually on and around Black Friday. EMPTek's sale is probably update-related.

123go 02-01-2016 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam2434 (Post 41148378)
I own both the Def Tech BP10B and Klipsch RP-280F, so can speak from extensive personal experience.

The Klipsch are more detailed/clear/dynamic, and have a more forward/bright sound. However, this is a double-edged sword. They bring out details that are lost on other speakers I've owned in their price range, but they can sound a bit shouty at high levels with certain material. My comments are based on music, not video material.

For 75% HT, I think the Klipsch RP series is worth consideration. Their dynamics and detail would be an upgrade in the HT context, IMO.

With any speaker option, auditioning in your room with your content is the best way to determine if a speaker is an upgrade.

yes i agree with this the Klipsch add details that u don't hear in another speaker , but they can sound for music a bit of a chaotic soundfest. Nontheless they have great bass and rythm and some parts in music can be better than on any speaker other parts can be acceptable but not amazing...overall klipsch sound very different, for HT they are very capable of getting the job done 2.
I would go with Emptek if I was u , with the B stock towers .

todd7764 02-02-2016 04:01 PM

Well, I've decided to hold off on changing over my speakers. Instead, I ordered a couple Def Tech SR-8040BP surround speakers to match my LCR better. We'll see how everything sounds when I get my new Yamaha rx-2040 receiver and Hsu VTF15H Mk2 hooked up along with the new surrounds.

Thanks for the advice!

sivpar 02-02-2016 07:16 PM

Hello newbie here,
I am looking to set up game room/home theater. Initially, will just get Front & Center speakers. B&W 685 S2 (pair) and HTM62 S2 - is this a good setup to start with? Does $1000 for the 3 speakers sound OK or should I bargain on the Center (which is $450)?


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