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post #1 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Question Advise: tower or bookshelf as surround

I have 5.2.4 atmos set up with jbl stuido 1 series
http://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+180.html
These are my front towers and I have matching center and surround
I have Tannoy Di8s for overhead atmos driven by A3050

Now I am trying to add speakers to make it 7.2.4

I have access to jbl arena 130 new
http://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/ARENA+130.html

and used Jbl 180 towers mentioned above at the same price (including stands needed)
I have dedicated room and no constrains of WAF or kids knocking them over

which would be better choice?
Thanks

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post #2 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 08:10 AM
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I dont know the JBL's very well, but....

Id say, if you have the space for the towers to image properly, then towers as surrounds are really a special treat....

I love mine, wouldnt change them for the world.....

They add a little more impact then the smaller guys did (I tried both, stuck with the towers)
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post #3 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 08:12 AM
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Maybe I am missing this, but do you have dedicated subs? Are you able to position the tower speakers as surrounds so they are the proper height for Atmos? If so, I say go with the towers, just because why not?
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post #4 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ack_bk View Post
Maybe I am missing this, but do you have dedicated subs? Are you able to position the tower speakers as surrounds so they are the proper height for Atmos? If so, I say go with the towers, just because why not?
yes I have two subs in 19 x 19 room

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post #5 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 11:07 AM
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Where is your prime seating in that 19x19ft room?

Is it a single sofa or row of chairs, or are there multiple rows?

Are the rows tiered, that is, going back, each successive row raised above the one in front?

Whether you can use Floorstanding as Surrounds, which is how I interpret the question, depend on how much space you have behind the prime seating. Floorstanding would have to be back a ways. Bookshelf or Surrounds can be placed closer and higher to get the best sound.

So, the decision, in my mind, is all about available space, and not the quality of the speakers. If you have the space behind the prime seat, the Floorstanding will work. If you don't have the space, then wall mounted Bookshelf or Surrounds seem a better choice.

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post #6 of 13 Old 03-18-2016, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
Where is your prime seating in that 19x19ft room?

Is it a single sofa or row of chairs, or are there multiple rows?

Are the rows tiered, that is, going back, each successive row raised above the one in front?

Whether you can use Floorstanding as Surrounds, which is how I interpret the question, depend on how much space you have behind the prime seating. Floorstanding would have to be back a ways. Bookshelf or Surrounds can be placed closer and higher to get the best sound.

So, the decision, in my mind, is all about available space, and not the quality of the speakers. If you have the space behind the prime seat, the Floorstanding will work. If you don't have the space, then wall mounted Bookshelf or Surrounds seem a better choice.

Steve/bluewizard
I have only one row about 12 feet away from screen, leaving total of 7 feet on behind. For towers I was going to place them side surround as shown in Dolby atmos setting here
http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dol...-4-setups.html

I have matching small surrounds that will go on the back wall
As far as height, dolby now recommends speakers at ear level. and I can do that with towers easily.
Distance to MLP would be bout 9 feet on each side and the closest seat would be about 3.5 feet from towers

thanks for everyone's input

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post #7 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drriddhish View Post
I have only one row about 12 feet away from screen, leaving total of 7 feet on behind. For towers I was going to place them side surround ...

Distance to MLP would be bout 9 feet on each side and the closest seat would be about 3.5 feet from towers...
The problem with low ear-level speakers at the sides is that the person sitting next to that speaker has their experience dominated by that one speaker.

If the Towers are in the rear at a distance, or if bookshelf are at the side and higher, then the sound has room to spread out and cover the entire listening area.

Yes, I have see tower speakers in close proximity in very good system, but it is a compromise. The question isn't will it work, but rather will it work best.

If you have space behind, and you have bookshelf and floorstanding, then place the Towers far back at the rear, and the bookshelf up a bit higher on the sides.

Now, you can do anything, and yes, not matter what, it will work. But what is the combination that will work best.

Every system is a compromise ...unless by chance you have a larger dedicated room and a very large pile of money ... but you try to make compromises that lean toward what you need and away for aspects you care less about. You, in a sense, have to maximize and optimize with in the equipment and circumstances you have.

In my case ...simply as an illustration... I have 4 front speakers, and that causes some problems, but what I gain more than offsets what I lose, so I've made the compromises that suit me.

As to speaker placement as a general principle, you have to maximize the listening area. The sound needs to reach the entire listening area not just the single prime seat. I don't see that as possible with a Tower speaker at the side at ear level. That's just me, others may disagree. But that doesn't seem ideal.

Just as a general bit of information, a tweeter will generally spread out in a prime arc of 15°. The Tangent of 15° is 0.268. So at 10 feet, the sound has spread about 2.68 feet. The scale is linear, so you can scale it up or down easily. If 10ft is 2.68ft, then 5ft is half that at 1.34 ft.

The Arc is the Tangent of the Angle times the Distance.

Using this, you can get an idea of whether the speaker is covering the entire Prime Seating Area. Since the output is generally in a cone of sound, this can apply both vertically and horizontally.

The prime arc for tweeters is typically 15° (±7.5°) within which the sound is uncompromised (more or less). The secondary arc is 30° (±15°) within which there is some compromise.

Hope that helps.

Steve/bluewizard
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post #8 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 11:49 AM
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I honestly don't see the need to ever use towers for surrounds. I think bi-poles are best and bookshelfs are fine if the room can't support a bi-pole speaker for whatever reason. But I do think that any speaker should be able to comfortably play down to 80 HZ or lower for crossing over purposes
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post #9 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
I honestly don't see the need to ever use towers for surrounds. I think bi-poles are best and bookshelfs are fine if the room can't support a bi-pole speaker for whatever reason. But I do think that any speaker should be able to comfortably play down to 80 HZ or lower for crossing over purposes
I know the OP said WAF was not an issue, but in my view, the WAF of a nice looking tower is better than a bookshelf on a stand. Also the kid knocking it over factor is better. Based on that I would get the surround towers. Based on sound vs. $ with no other factors, I would just get the bookshelf surrounds on stands or the bookshelves mounted on the wall. That is assuming two or more subwoofers are in play. I think Blue Wizard made an interesting point that the overall sound window is increased if the bookshelves on walls are further away from the nearest listener.

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post #10 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
The problem with low ear-level speakers at the sides is that the person sitting next to that speaker has their experience dominated by that one speaker.



Just as a general bit of information, a tweeter will generally spread out in a prime arc of 15°. The Tangent of 15° is 0.268. So at 10 feet, the sound has spread about 2.68 feet. The scale is linear, so you can scale it up or down easily. If 10ft is 2.68ft, then 5ft is half that at 1.34 ft.

The Arc is the Tangent of the Angle times the Distance.

Using this, you can get an idea of whether the speaker is covering the entire Prime Seating Area. Since the output is generally in a cone of sound, this can apply both vertically and horizontally.

The prime arc for tweeters is typically 15° (±7.5°) within which the sound is uncompromised (more or less). The secondary arc is 30° (±15°) within which there is some compromise.

Hope that helps.

Steve/bluewizard
appreciate that. i agree that tower that is placed at distance will have better coverage. I probably need better coverage than what i will get with towers. I will stick with arean 130 or may find more Tannoy Di8 DC those are spectacular..

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post #11 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post
I honestly don't see the need to ever use towers for surrounds. I think bi-poles are best and bookshelfs are fine if the room can't support a bi-pole speaker for whatever reason. But I do think that any speaker should be able to comfortably play down to 80 HZ or lower for crossing over purposes
bipoles are not advised for atmos set up from what i read..

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post #12 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 02:43 PM
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Andrew talks about this at about 5:26

Some other interesting things I noticed while watching the video are that there are not any exotic speaker cables & the center channel is located inside the TV stand & isn't pulled out past front edge. There aren't any visible treatments, there is a leather ( reflective ) sofa & there is a coffee table in front of the sofa. The front speakers are not way out into the room, looks like 2-3 feet?

Gad, do you suppose that this Andrew Jones guy knows anything?
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post #13 of 13 Old 03-20-2016, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drriddhish View Post
bipoles are not advised for atmos set up from what i read..
While "they" say bi-poles aren't good for an Atmos setup, I've found that this is basically true for your overhead layer only, the dispersion does change the directional pin-pointing of objects in a x.x.4 setup, but... for a x.x.2 setup, the extra dispersion can actually fill any gaps pretty well with the distances that can come from having only 2 speakers overhead.
As far as the bed layer, if you like bi-poles, go for it, the don't sound any different than they would with a typical Non-Atmos system.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
My Build Thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...formation.html
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