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post #31 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
That's no surprise. It helps validate your own purchasing decision and provides you with an excuse to interject in a post that wasn't directed to you.
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Please don't make out that discussing options is the motivation. It's fairly clear your primary motivation is validating your own purchasing decisions.
This thread is not about you. It's not about me. It's about helping the OP. In that interest, of course people can jump in and offer opinions about what others have said. It's also not about me and my motivations. And even though I have no idea why you decided to wake up this thread after three weeks, I am not going to speculate. Let's stick to discussing the audio and not use telepathy to guess other people's motivations.

All I will say is that you missed the LOL where I jokingly made the comment about losing his lease with bass. Geez!

Other than that, I'll wait until the OP decides to come back and help him.

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
Living room HT: Energy RC-50, Ascend Sierra Horizon w/RAAL, Ascend Sierra 1, PSB Imagine XA | PSA V1500 and CHT SS 18.1 | Denon X4200W | modified Dayton SA1000
Other rooms: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | Parasound Zamp | JBL LSR305
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post #32 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 11:09 AM
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I'm pretty sure the OP has forgotten all about this thread as not posts for the past month.

Ooops, I was wrong!

Last edited by gajCA; 08-04-2016 at 02:03 PM.
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post #33 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks (OP here)!

First, I want to thank all of you for your help so far. Seriously, I'm blown away by the quality and quantity of the suggestions so far and I'm impressed by your passion for helping a newbie. I definitely haven't forgotten about this thread. I got consumed for a few weeks by some personal drama but am happy to be mostly done with that now and am looking forwarding to figuring out what to get started with soon. I've read each of your posts in detail (and some I've read 4-5x to make sure that I grasped everything). To clarify a few things about me which might help bring focus to some of the points of disagreement:

On budget, my $4k number is entirely arbitrary. I would of course love to spend less in much the way I'd prefer to spend less on nearly everything. If there was no appreciate difference between $2k and $4k, I would of course want to stay with $2k. That's the spirit of the comment. In terms of going higher on the budget, it's certainly possible if there's a strong enough justification. The last time I went car shopping I started with a budget that was about 50% of what I ended up falling in love with and buying. When I put together my last car audio system something very similar happened. In both cases, I consider them among the best purchases I've ever made in terms of quality of life, so I'm willing to think similarly about this system for my living room.

On bass, certainly accuracy is the most important feature for me. Having bass that accentuates the movie/tv watching experience but does not dominate it is my goal. As some of you have noted, I am also somewhat constrained via living in an apartment. So far my apartment seems to have pretty good sound-proofing (I've never heard my neighbors), but it's something I do keep in mind.

On aesthetics, I certainly do care about the appearance of my living room. While many (including my GF) would tell you that I have no sense of aesthetics at all I like to think that I do, just that my preferences may not always align with others. Beauty is subjective and while my primary concern is audio performance, appearance could be a factor.

On upgradeability, I have a feeling that over time this will become something I'm passionate about, so certainly I want the ability to upgrade things in the future in a reasonable way. This will likely not be just a "drop in and forget for 10 years" system, though at the same time I probably won't be changing it every few months either.

Last edited by sadllama; 08-04-2016 at 02:00 PM.
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post #34 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sadllama View Post
Hi folks (OP here)!

First, I want to thank all of you for your help so far. Seriously, I'm blown away by the quality and quantity of the suggestions so far and I'm impressed by your passion for helping a newbie. I definitely haven't forgotten about this thread. I got consumed for a few weeks by some personal drama but am happy to be mostly done with that now and am looking forwarding to figuring out what to get started with soon. I've read each of your posts in detail (and some I've read 4-5x to make sure that I grasped everything). To clarify a few things about me which might help bring focus to some of the points of disagreement:

On budget, my $4k number is entirely arbitrary. I would of course love to spend less in much the way I'd prefer to spend less on nearly everything. If there was no appreciate difference between $2k and $4k, I would of course want to stay with $2k. That's the spirit of the comment. In terms of going higher on the budget, it's certainly possible if there's a strong enough justification. The last time I went car shopping I started with a budget that was about 50% of what I ended up falling in love with and buying. When I put together my last car audio system something very similar happened. In both cases, I consider them among the best purchases I've ever made in terms of quality of life, so I'm willing to think similarly about this system for my living room.

On bass, certainly accuracy is the most important feature for me. Having bass that accentuates the movie/tv watching experience but does not dominate it is my goal. As some of you have noted, I am also somewhat constrained via living in an apartment. So far my apartment seems to have pretty good sound-proofing (I've never heard my neighbors), but it's something I do keep in mind.

On aesthetics, I certainly do care about the appearance of my living room. While many (including my GF) would tell you that I have no sense of aesthetics at all I like to think that I do, just that my preferences may not always align with others. Beauty is subjective and while my primary concern is audio performance, appearance could be a factor.

On upgradeability, I have a feeling that over time this will become something I'm passionate about, so certainly I want the ability to upgrade things in the future in a reasonable way. This will likely not be just a "drop in and forget for 10 years" system, though at the same time I probably won't be changing it every few months either.
Just tossing in my recommendations.

Skip the Denon AVR...the AVR-X4200W has had issues with overheating and thermal shutdowns. Denon is not the most reliable in my opinion. I'd go with the Yamaha Aventage RX-860BL. Known to be reliable, beefy powerful sound, nice high end sparkle, and great feature set.

For the speakers I would go with Bowers and Wilkins 685 S2 bookshelf for the fronts and surrounds. Center channel would be the Bowers and Wilkins HTM61 S2. Subwoofer would be the HSU VTF-3 MK5. Total cost is just under $4,000.
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post #35 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 02:36 PM
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For speakers that LOOK as good as they SOUND but don't cost an arm and a leg, EMPTek is very hard to beat. Below are options...I think the maximum combined cost of a 5.1 setup with towers and mega-center is about $1800 shipped A-stock...a couple hundred bucks less B-stock. If you opt for bookshelf speakers and the smaller center instead, it'd be under $1200 A-stock and $1K for B-stock.

a1) Towers, $700 shipped:
http://emptek.com/r55ti.php
$564 shipped "B-stock"
http://emptek.com/bs3319104963RB.php

or
a2) Bookshelves, $225 shipped:
http://emptek.com/r5bi.php
$182 shipped "B-stock"
http://emptek.com/bs6019855430RB.php

b1) Center, $200 shipped
http://emptek.com/r5ci.php
or
b2) Mega-center, $400 shipped:
http://emptek.com/r56ci.php
$320 shipped "B-stock"
http://emptek.com/bs899105846RB.php

c)
1 x I12 subwoofer, $500 shipped
http://emptek.com/i12.php
$404 shipped "B-stock"
http://emptek.com/bs1011254676RB.php

Even without the aesthetic appeal, these are very well-regarded speakers in both value and performance.

B-stock main page:
http://emptek.com/bstockZ1744.php
These are CLAIMED to be "Scratch and Dent B-stock" but I suspect they are actually brand new---EMPTek is simply clearing out stock because they are getting ready to introduce updated models of these speakers in the next couple of months (some are now saying that's been pushed back to next year), but they don't want to hurt their product's perceived brand value. Very common practice across the industry.

If you are unfamiliar with this brand, EMPTek is a division of RBH, a very well established and respected maker of pretty high end speakers: http://emptek.com/about.php

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #36 of 43 Old 08-04-2016, 10:26 PM
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I'm goingoing to bow out of this thread after the heated discussion started about certain recommendations and whatnot that included and was about me.

Please, this thread is about the OP.

Now, OP, do not be afraid of B-stock material. In most cases you will not even be able to tell what the defect is. The off chance you can tell it's usually just a small blemish that can only be seen by a flashlight. The smell blemish that will be on it as soon as you set it on a stand or anything without a felt pad under it lol. I have Sierra 2s that were b-stock and Sierra 1s that were 3 years old used and neither one had a scratch on it. All worked perfectly.

I will check back and see what you decided on. Best of luck to you and happy listening :-)
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post #37 of 43 Old 08-05-2016, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Theriddler07sms View Post
I'm goingoing to bow out of this thread after the heated discussion started about certain recommendations and whatnot that included and was about me.

Please, this thread is about the OP.

Now, OP, do not be afraid of B-stock material. In most cases you will not even be able to tell what the defect is. The off chance you can tell it's usually just a small blemish that can only be seen by a flashlight. The smell blemish that will be on it as soon as you set it on a stand or anything without a felt pad under it lol. I have Sierra 2s that were b-stock and Sierra 1s that were 3 years old used and neither one had a scratch on it. All worked perfectly.

I will check back and see what you decided on. Best of luck to you and happy listening :-)
Bummer, I thought you made some good recommendations.
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post #38 of 43 Old 08-05-2016, 11:53 AM
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I'm goingoing to bow out of this thread after the heated discussion started about certain recommendations and whatnot that included and was about me.
We like everyone’s input. All have value. There will always be arguments and off-topic discussions concerning audio, since it’s a subjective media. So please, don’t bow out or get gun shy. All voices are welcome, even those that are disagreed with. People disagree with me often and it hasn’t stopped me from banging on the keyboard .
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post #39 of 43 Old 08-08-2016, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
That's no surprise. It helps validate your own purchasing decision and provides you with an excuse to interject in a post that wasn't directed to you.
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Originally Posted by GIEGAR View Post
Please don't make out that discussing options is the motivation. It's fairly clear your primary motivation is validating your own purchasing decisions.
This thread is not about you. It's not about me. It's about helping the OP. In that interest, of course people can jump in and offer opinions about what others have said. It's also not about me and my motivations. And even though I have no idea why you decided to wake up this thread after three weeks, I am not going to speculate. Let's stick to discussing the audio and not use telepathy to guess other people's motivations.

All I will say is that you missed the LOL where I jokingly made the comment about losing his lease with bass. Geez!

Other than that, I'll wait until the OP decides to come back and help him.
Quote:
This thread is not about you. It's not about me.
Bleating the old "This thread is not about you.” is very rich when you where the one who made it about me by citing me by name no less than four times, including misrepresenting what I said and (selectively) quoting me. You could've easily made all of your points in post 28 without any reference to me at all.

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It's about helping the OP.
Refer to posts 22 and 23. What are they about?

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In that interest, of course people can jump in and offer opinions about what others have said.
Which you did and I responded with my reasoning. But that just wouldn't do, so in a fit of pique you co-opted an unsuspecting third party in order to take several swipes at what I said, instead of responding directly.

Quote:
And even though I have no idea why you decided to wake up this thread after three weeks, I am not going to speculate.
The length of time it takes me to respond to provocation is irrelevant.

Quote:
Let's stick to discussing the audio and not use telepathy to guess other people's motivations.
You are no position to issue a decree to stick to the audio when it was you who took it to the personal level in the first place.

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All I will say is that you missed the LOL where I jokingly made the comment about losing his lease with bass. Geez!
I didn't miss it. I interpreted it in the context of the previous sentence and the paragraph as a whole:
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Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post
I agree with you. GIEGAR pointed out that the OP's room is on the edge of the Audioholics Large recommendation, and you have suggested subs that no doubt fit that recommendation, are suitable for the OPs space, and cost considerably less than the ones he recommended. Plus, he's in an "apartment living room." I don't think going for bass monster setup will help keep his lease. (lol)
So "(lol)" means: "Ignore what I just said."?

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Other than that, I'll wait until the OP decides to come back and help him.
Which is what you should've stuck to, instead of launching personal pot shots under the pretence of agreeing with someone else.
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post #40 of 43 Old 08-08-2016, 10:03 AM
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I'm goingoing to bow out of this thread after the heated discussion started about certain recommendations and whatnot that included and was about me.

Please, this thread is about the OP.
Riddler, I just wanted to assure you that I don't have any hard feelings towards you at all. You put forward some comments in a reasonable manner and I attempted to respond in a reasonable way. However, you and your post were used to have a sideways crack at my suggestions and it's that aspect I took exception to, not you.

In retrospect, it was poor form on my part to quote you directly in my response, so I apologise for that.
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post #41 of 43 Old 08-08-2016, 10:30 AM
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So "(lol)" means: "Ignore what I just said."?


Which is what you should've stuck to, instead of launching personal pot shots under the pretence of agreeing with someone else.
I'm sorry. It was a joke. If I had known you would be offended for weeks about it, I certainly would never have posted it about it.

Can we move on and talk about audio?

Your questions are answered: Speaker FAQ
Living room HT: Energy RC-50, Ascend Sierra Horizon w/RAAL, Ascend Sierra 1, PSB Imagine XA | PSA V1500 and CHT SS 18.1 | Denon X4200W | modified Dayton SA1000
Other rooms: CBM-170 SE | SVS SB-1000 | Audio-GD NFB-11 | Parasound Zamp | JBL LSR305
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post #42 of 43 Old 08-09-2016, 06:04 AM
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Can we move on and talk about audio?
Sure.

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Originally Posted by sadllama View Post
Now..as requested...pictures! Please ignore that the room needs some tidying up. Also, the new TV hasn't arrived yet. That comes Friday.
Spoiler!


Sadllama, how much time do you and the missus spend gazing out that window at the view? It's actually the best location for your "screen wall" as it's the closest thing to a line of symmetry in the room for audio and you won't get reflections on the display from the window. Both main speakers will be in similar proximity to a side wall (rather than one out in the open and one in a corner) and will give you similar in-room response. You also won't have a wall directly behind your head which can introduce strong flutter (or slap) echo. Both surrounds (at 90º - 100º to the listening axis, not behind) will have a wall to sit next to or be mounted on.

Bookshelves with lots of books make great diffusors. You could get a second matching one and have one on each side wall at the first reflection points. Transfer half the books to the second one, filling the shelves closest to seated ear height first.

Your DVD cabinets could go behind the lounge chair or at it's ends as end tables. The main thing is keeping symmetry around the listening axis. You should also get rid of the coffee table from between the seats and the front speakers. It's a large acoustically reflective surface that can adversely affect imaging and clarity because reflected (slightly delayed) sound bouncing off it recombines with the direct sound.

Please let us know what you think about that preferred layout and we'll look at another option if you don't like it.
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post #43 of 43 Old 08-09-2016, 12:05 PM
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Sadllama, how much time do you and the missus spend gazing out that window at the view? It's actually the best location for your "screen wall" as it's the closest thing to a line of symmetry in the room for audio and you won't get reflections on the display from the window. Both main speakers will be in similar proximity to a side wall (rather than one out in the open and one in a corner) and will give you similar in-room response. You also won't have a wall directly behind your head which can introduce strong flutter (or slap) echo. Both surrounds (at 90º - 100º to the listening axis, not behind) will have a wall to sit next to or be mounted on.
I've suggested similar placements in other threads for the reasons you mention and was met with horror at the idea of blocking a portion of the window despite the obvious audio and video benefits.

In this situation the TV facing the kitchen and bar area has obvious benefits.
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