Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread - Page 125 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3721 of 4278 Old 11-15-2019, 11:24 AM
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After long sessions with the first three using the same sources and music, the Salons were in the lead. It was 1) Salon, 2) Everest, and 3) 1400 Array. Then the K2s were hooked up at the end by my request, and BOOM!, it was game over. My Salon dream vanished in less than five minutes, and a month later, I was meeting the dealer halfway between San Francisco and LA to take them back home...

It’s hard to rank any of them 1-2-3 since all are spectacular. However, if I could only keep one set, it would be the K2s.
I find this very interesting. I have also been very impressed with the modern K2s, and if cost were truly no object would probably get them - but, I've never heard the modern Everests (I was lucky enough to hear some vintage Everests once).

I know these things can be subjective and hard to quantity, but in your recollection what about the Everest made you prefer the Salons and K2s?
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post #3722 of 4278 Old 11-15-2019, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dschulz View Post
I find this very interesting. I have also been very impressed with the modern K2s, and if cost were truly no object would probably get them - but, I've never heard the modern Everests (I was lucky enough to hear some vintage Everests once).

I know these things can be subjective and hard to quantity, but in your recollection what about the Everest made you prefer the Salons and K2s?
The listening room was very large, perhaps about 1/4 the size of a small ballroom, which is just about the volume size in cubic feet of my previous open plan living room/family room/formal dining room/eating nook/ kitchen. The Everest DD66000s seemed surprisingly lost in there. The bass was uneven and "squirrelly" which disappointed me a lot. The placement was an important factor, and I wasn't convinced with the way they were set up. Floyd says bass is 30% or so of listening preference, and without happiness in that frequency range, I'm not loving it. The midrange and treble were quite good, but seemed disassociated from the bass.

The LE14H-3 woofer in the 1400 Array was much more satisfying, and it was clearly more coherent than the two 15s in the Everest. The Arrays seemed a little "darK' in that big space, though, so the room volume tended to swallow the upper midrange and highs.

The three 8" inverted dome woofers in the Salon were excellent and powerful. They filled the room well as did the entire set of drivers, but I sensed a slight edginess as the volume increased. In a smaller room (where I've also heard them) they would indeed be marvelous.

The 15' woofer in the K2 was superior to the triple 8s in the Salon. The Salon could produce a lot of dBs, and the K2s could deliver a lot of music, being both aggressive and sensitive at the same time. The K2's driver integration seemed a lot better than the Everest, and the K2 pair easily filled the room much more evenly than its bigger sibling.

The K2s and the Salons were placed in the same spot one after the other, so the placement may have favored the K2: far from the rear wall and far from the corners.

My current space is probably larger by volume than the room I heard these demos in, and the K2s are loving it. Everyone comments on how stunning the sound is. One thing I've always done with the K2s is supplement them with a pair of subs below 50Hz, at least when I play dance, trance, club mixes, and J- or K-Pop in the house. Bass heads gotta breathe, you know. For Jazz, Baroque, Classical, Soundtrack, Pop, Rock, R&B, Blues, Instrumentals, and vocal, I don't think the subs add anything.
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post #3723 of 4278 Old 11-15-2019, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by filecat13 View Post

My current space is probably larger by volume than the room I heard these demos in, and the K2s are loving it. Everyone comments on how stunning the sound is. One thing I've always done with the K2s is supplement them with a pair of subs below 50Hz, at least when I play dance, trance, club mixes, and J- or K-Pop in the house. Bass heads gotta breathe, you know. For Jazz, Baroque, Classical, Soundtrack, Pop, Rock, R&B, Blues, Instrumentals, and vocal, I don't think the subs add anything.
Thank you, this is a most helpful review. And kudos on not being afraid of subwoofers and bass management where needed - too many in the audiophile class that would be cross-shaping speakers at these price points turn up their noses at augmenting them with subwoofers, but I think you're on the right track. Would love to hear that setup if I'm ever up your way (I'm in SoCal).
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post #3724 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 01:12 AM
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How lower than the main speakers a center channel can be? I am thinking of switching from 2 to 5 channel for a change next year despite small room size just to try out new things.( I realized that now I listen to classical music a lot and there are plenty of m channel for this genre.)How much "angle" is OK? Are there any books on that? Seating distance from front wall is 2.7 meters.
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post #3725 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
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How lower than the main speakers a center channel can be? I am thinking of switching from 2 to 5 channel for a change next year despite small room size just to try out new things.( I realized that now I listen to classical music a lot and there are plenty of m channel for this genre.)How much "angle" is OK? Are there any books on that? Seating distance from front wall is 2.7 meters.
+/- 10 degrees is a good rule of thumb.

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post #3726 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 01:48 AM
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Mounting on top of on the bottom of a TV, which is preferable from acoustic standpoint and perception?
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post #3727 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 01:58 AM
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Top would be better in most circumstances

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post #3728 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 03:25 AM
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Are 705p as a LCR enough for 2.7 meter listening distance (8 feet 10 inch per calculator) ?&amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
I have 708i as LR now but probably will give away them. &amp;lt;br /&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;<br />
and is 2m (6 feet 6 inch) distance from Ls and Rs is enough to not be in too hot of a spot?<br />
I don't have a subwoofer

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post #3729 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by aats View Post
Are 705p as a LCR enough for 2.7 meter listening distance (8 feet 10 inch per calculator) ?<br /><br /><br />

I have 708i as LR now but probably will give away them. <br /><br /><br />

and is 2m (6 feet 6 inch) distance from Ls and Rs is enough to not be in too hot of a spot?<br />

I don't have a subwoofer

I’ll be glad to help you find a new home for the 708i’s you want to give away. I’ll even pay shipping.


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post #3730 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 02:34 PM
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I am using three of the 708p's for LCR.

I sit 9.5 feet back from them and they are awesome!
Perfect for my listening levels.
Plus I do have really good subs...dual 24's up front and three 18's in the rear.
I think the 705's would work fine, as long as you have good subs that can help fill that mid range.
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post #3731 of 4278 Old 11-16-2019, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aats View Post
Are 705p as a LCR enough for 2.7 meter listening distance (8 feet 10 inch per calculator) ?.. I have 708i as LR now ....
705p will work fine but try to swing for 708p if possible- they are step up from 705s IMHO.

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post #3732 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 12:41 AM
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I can hold on giving away my 708i (this can wait)and buy a 708p center. Probably it's a better option. There should be no problem to match them tonally I would think.<br />
and buy 2 705p for surrounds then.<br />
what is more important for m channel music - center or surrounds?
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post #3733 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 01:14 AM
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I can hold on giving away my 708i (this can wait)and buy a 708p center. Probably it's a better option. There should be no problem to match them tonally I would think.<br />

and buy 2 705p for surrounds then.<br />

what is more important for m channel music - center or surrounds?
Center is just as important as left/right for both movies and music. Never slack on the center speaker

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post #3734 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 03:32 AM
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I am using three of the 708p's for LCR.<br />
<br />
I sit 9.5 feet back from them and they are awesome!<br />
Perfect for my listening levels.<br />
Plus I do have really good subs...dual 24's up front and three 18's in the rear.<br />
I think the 705's would work fine, as long as you have good subs that can help fill that mid range.
<br />
<br />
I don't think &quot;dual 24 and 3 18'&quot; is too good of idea in a small apartment room. There is very little bass in music anyway, unless you listen to church organ. But churn organ should be listened in church, normal rooms just don't feel right in visuals and all that anyway imo.

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post #3735 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 05:43 PM
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<br />

<br />

I don't think "dual 24 and 3 18'" is too good of idea in a small apartment room. There is very little bass in music anyway, unless you listen to church organ. But churn organ should be listened in church, normal rooms just don't feel right in visuals and all that anyway imo.
It's a perfect idea actually...there's zero gain in the sub 20hz region in a small room so large displacement is exactly what's needed.
He probably loves low and slow music along with his home theatre.
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post #3736 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 06:59 PM
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It's a perfect idea actually...there's zero gain in the sub 20hz region in a small room so large displacement is exactly what's needed.

That's backwards.

The smaller the space, the higher in freq room gain starts, cars being a good example.
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post #3737 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 09:30 PM
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I don't like bothering neighbours too much, it is apartment not a house. So not doing infrasonic here. And I don't watch effect movies. What I watch from time to time are nature documentaries and animation films (some of them are action though, but whatever, its good enough) . Music is a primary for me.
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post #3738 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 11:01 PM
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There is very little bass in music anyway
Well, maybe not your music.

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post #3739 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 11:20 PM
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Yeah sure there is some bass in &quot;bass I love you&quot; and other stuff like that, but I don't listen to that genre.
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post #3740 of 4278 Old 11-17-2019, 11:25 PM
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Do you collect video game and movie soundtracks? Or am I the only weird one who does that?

So much good music there.
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post #3741 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 02:27 AM
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Yeah sure there is some bass in &quot;bass I love you&quot; and other stuff like that, but I don't listen to that genre.
All music has bass in it for which pairing speakers with subs will improve sound quality. One good reason to *not* use subs is being in an apartment and disturbing neighbors. This is a concern because all music does have bass that using subs will improve.
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post #3742 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 06:23 AM
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I listen mainly to jazz, soft and progressive rock, new age, classical, classic rock, country... They all have bass. I think this is the first time I have heard "music doesn't have bass".
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post #3743 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 06:36 AM
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And another important point regarding subs: You can place them where they provide the best _quality_ bass. Which is most likely not the position where your speakers provide the best soundstage.

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post #3744 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 10:58 AM
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I think of bass as below 80 Hz. Low E string on a guitar is 82.4 Hz. Doesn't sound like "bass" to me (I'm a guitar player). Low E string on a bass guitar, acoustic bass etc is an octave below the guitar at 41.2 Hz. That sounds and feels like bass to me. As a recording and live sound engineer, I had to know pitch to frequency conversion so I could use equalizers effectively on instruments, find feedback frequencies etc.


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post #3745 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 11:13 AM
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All music has bass in it for which pairing speakers with subs will improve sound quality. One good reason to *not* use subs is being in an apartment and disturbing neighbors. This is a concern because all music does have bass that using subs will improve.
Yes it will.
I was talking more about of a "sub" bass that is lower than 40-50 Hz.
There is not much of that.
It adds some to experiences, of course, but I am willing to take those losses (I've brought a few subs just to see what happens, made quite big difference to some genres, but not too much to others).


Obviously if you are looking for "ultimate" experience you need 1-20000 Hz, but I'd rather save that money to go to concerts a few times in a month, cheaper and more "ultimate" to me.

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post #3746 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 12:55 PM
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Yeah sure there is some bass in &quot;bass I love you&quot; and other stuff like that, but I don't listen to that genre.
I think maybe you're just ignorant of how much bass is in music.

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Yes it will.
I was talking more about of a "sub" bass that is lower than 40-50 Hz.
There is not much of that.
It adds some to experiences, of course, but I am willing to take those losses (I've brought a few subs just to see what happens, made quite big difference to some genres, but not too much to others).


Obviously if you are looking for "ultimate" experience you need 1-20000 Hz, but I'd rather save that money to go to concerts a few times in a month, cheaper and more "ultimate" to me.

Yes, there is plenty of bass below 50hz in music.
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post #3747 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 03:20 PM
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I’ll be glad to help you find a new home for the 708i’s you want to give away. I’ll even pay shipping.


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WOW Skippy, the PSA consultant wants 708's? You are recommending PSA's all over the forum, but you don't have those speakers. "Remember 708's can't hang with the PSA's" Your looking at Revels? What gives buy the PSA's.

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post #3748 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 04:20 PM
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WOW Skippy, the PSA consultant wants 708's?
Yes, I think the 708's are really good speakers. I would definitely take a set someone was giving away.

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You are recommending PSA's all over the forum, but you don't have those speakers.
So I should only recommend speakers I own? This is a very bizarre viewpoint imo. I try to recommend what I feel would best meet peoples needs. PSA holds a unique nitch in the speaker market with one of the only speakers designed and engineered from the ground up to be crossed to subs, greatly increasing their capability above crossover compared to regular hifi speakers that have reduced capability above crossover due to attempting full range performance. And they do so at a very competitive price point.

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"Remember 708's can't hang with the PSA's"
This is true. Whats the point?

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Your looking at Revels? What gives buy the PSA's.
I like the PSA's, but had never considered them while I had bookshelf speakers in my shallow 10" or so deep built in bookshelf that covers most of the front of my room. PSA's are like 14" deep. The other thing that rules out PSA for me is that I can only fit a center channel of around 7.5" in height, which rules out a center channel with 10" woofers.

I decided to try a set of Revels after considering that I am realistically 90% music, and 10% movies. My only setup is on the living room of my house so I listen to music pretty much every day. I wanted to try a wide dispersion design like Revel in an attempt to get the best music performance possible with speakers that would disappear in the room sonically. At the same time, I wanted to retain as much capability for home theater as possible, so I chose speakers with 91 dB sensitivity(Revel F36) which is higher than most other hifi speakers. I give up some extension with an F3 of 51 HZ, which doesn't matter to me as I cross to excellent subs. I'll gladly take the improved sensitivity.

Last, I considered aesthetics. I think the PSA speakers look pretty good, better than most would think, but the Revel on the other hand, imo, are gorgeous with a fantastic piano gloss finish and beautiful curved cabinets that make the speakers appear much smaller.

No doubt, I am giving up some max output capability for home theater, but for me personally the trade off is worth it at this time. I have no illusion that this setup will handle home theater as well as a PSA setup, especially as the volume climbs north of -10 dB from reference.

So there you go. Not sure you really deserve a serious in depth answer like this, as I know you are quite offended that I claim PSA speakers are more capable than yours for home theater. But here's to the high road.

And again for the record, I think you have quite excellent speakers. Hope you enjoy them thoroughly without reservation.
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post #3749 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 04:33 PM
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Yes, I think the 708's are really good speakers. I would definitely take a set someone was giving away.

So I should only recommend speakers I own? This is a very bizarre viewpoint imo. I try to recommend what I feel would best meet peoples needs. PSA holds a unique nitch in the speaker market with one of the only speakers designed and engineered from the ground up to be crossed to subs, greatly increasing their capability above crossover compared to regular hifi speakers that have reduced capability above crossover due to attempting full range performance. And they do so at a very competitive price point.

So there you go. Not sure you really deserve a serious in depth answer like this, as I know you are quite offended that I claim PSA speakers are more capable than yours for home theater. But here's to the high road.

And again for the record, I think you have quite excellent speakers. Hope you enjoy them thoroughly without reservation.
You need to stop giving people the wrong impression! There is no universe where the PSA's will hang with the 708's for clarity or total output. You have a 8 Ohm consumer speaker vs a 4 Ohm Pro level speaker. Not on the same level. See attachment 708i center channel at -10 from reference.
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post #3750 of 4278 Old 11-18-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CptSpig View Post
You need to stop giving people the wrong impression! There is no universe where the PSA's will hang with the 708's for clarity or total output. You have a 8 Ohm consumer speaker vs a 4 Ohm Pro level speaker. Not on the same level. See attachment 708i center channel at -10 from reference.
Not claiming to be an expert by any means, but I think you lack the technical knowledge to have a well informed opinion here. Do you think that an 8 ohm speaker is a disadvantage over a 4 ohm speaker somehow? Do you understand that a 10" pro audio woofer with high sensitivity that gives up 40 Hz extension in order to achieve 95 dB sensitivity is inherently more capable than a lower sensitivity 8" woofer that plays lower but sacrifices performance above crossover to do so?

This is just a matter of physics and design. The 708 is a very good speaker that plays nearly full range down to 40Hz. But there is no way possible that it can match the clean output capability of a speaker with larger, higher sensitivity driver(s). And the excellent B&C DE250 compression driver is surely padded to reduce its output to match even the dual woofer version of PSA's 98 dB speakers...in other words, it is coasting at reference level.

Every speaker has their strength and weaknesses. Maybe the 708 would have better sound quality with its M2 inspired waveguide. But, it is a speaker that was designed for full range playback as a studio monitor. It most definitely gives up ultimate capability when crossing at 80 Hz to subs compared to a speaker designed from the ground up to be crossed to subs, designed *not* to play full range. You seem incredibly offended by this. Different speakers designed for different uses.
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