Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread - Page 126 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3751 of 3774 Old 11-18-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Not claiming to be an expert by any means, but I think you lack the technical knowledge to have a well informed opinion here. Do you think that an 8 ohm speaker is a disadvantage over a 4 ohm speaker somehow? Do you understand that a 10" pro audio woofer with high sensitivity that gives up 40 Hz extension in order to achieve 95 dB sensitivity is inherently more capable than a lower sensitivity 8" woofer that plays lower but sacrifices performance above crossover to do so?

This is just a matter of physics and design. The 708 is a very good speaker that plays nearly full range down to 40Hz. But there is no way possible that it can match the clean output capability of a speaker with larger, higher sensitivity driver(s). And the excellent B&C DE250 compression driver is surely padded to reduce its output to match even the dual woofer version of PSA's 98 dB speakers...in other words, it is coasting at reference level.

Every speaker has their strength and weaknesses. Maybe the 708 would have better sound quality with its M2 inspired waveguide. But, it is a speaker that was designed for full range playback as a studio monitor. It most definitely gives up ultimate capability when crossing at 80 Hz to subs compared to a speaker designed from the ground up to be crossed to subs, designed *not* to play full range. You seem incredibly offended by this. Different speakers designed for different uses.
You win I give up... at least if I have a technical question I know where to go for the best answers. Hey, can I have my installers and sound engineers contact you with questions?

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post #3752 of 3774 Old 11-18-2019, 06:05 PM
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You win I give up... at least if I have a technical question I know where to go for the best answers. Hey, can I have my installers and sound engineers contact you with questions?
If you have a position to defend, then by all means present a cogent argument. I've been wrong before and will be again, I'm quite certain. All I'm saying is:

Speaker A: 8" woofer with 92? dB sensitivity, horn loaded compression driver.

Speaker B: 10" or dual 10" woofers with 95-98 dB sensitivity, horn loaded compression driver.

Without ridiculously abysmal drivers, which speaker will have greater clean output capably above 80 Hz?

A great 8" can certainly keep up with a good 10", all else being equal. But not when the 8" is designed to extend lower and gives up sensitivity to do so.

Refute this with a reasonable argument. Its not an insult to you, or your speakers. Some speakers will play louder and cleaner than others, depending on design. What's the big deal?
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post #3753 of 3774 Old 11-18-2019, 10:12 PM
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You need to stop giving people the wrong impression! There is no universe where the PSA's will hang with the 708's for clarity or total output. You have a 8 Ohm consumer speaker vs a 4 Ohm Pro level speaker. Not on the same level. See attachment 708i center channel at -10 from reference.
The PSAs use 10" pro drivers and will easily play louder than the 708s.

The 708s use lower efficiency 8" woofers

Not sure what the impedance has to do with anything here. hint: it doesn't.

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You win I give up... at least if I have a technical question I know where to go for the best answers. Hey, can I have my installers and sound engineers contact you with questions?
Almost everything you said is wrong or irrelevant

Last edited by notnyt; 11-18-2019 at 10:15 PM.
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post #3754 of 3774 Old 11-18-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
If you have a position to defend, then by all means present a cogent argument. I've been wrong before and will be again, I'm quite certain. All I'm saying is:

Speaker A: 8" woofer with 92? dB sensitivity, horn loaded compression driver.

Speaker B: 10" or dual 10" woofers with 95-98 dB sensitivity, horn loaded compression driver.

Without ridiculously abysmal drivers, which speaker will have greater clean output capably above 80 Hz?

A great 8" can certainly keep up with a good 10", all else being equal. But not when the 8" is designed to extend lower and gives up sensitivity to do so.

Refute this with a reasonable argument. Its not an insult to you, or your speakers. Some speakers will play louder and cleaner than others, depending on design. What's the big deal?
The HF section on the PSAs are trash, so "clean" output levels is going to be debatable. Oldnews horn and driver. On and off axis response will be nowhere even close to as good as the 708s. They'll play louder, though, especially the dual woofer models.
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post #3755 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The PSAs use 10" pro drivers and will easily play louder than the 708s.

The 708s use lower efficiency 8" woofers

Not sure what the impedance has to do with anything here. hint: it doesn't.



Almost everything you said is wrong or irrelevant
I think you have that backwards? It's you that has no idea what you talking about. "The 708i uses a lower efficiency driver" What does that have to do with total output? absolutely nothing. The PSA spec's 47Hz to 18kHz and the 708i 35Hz to 20Khz.
Have listen to either speaker our are you just like bear have not heard one or the other? I have listen to both and trust me no contest the 708i will play louder and cleaner. You guys need to stop looking at spec's and start listening.

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post #3756 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The PSAs use 10" pro drivers and will easily play louder than the 708s.

The 708s use lower efficiency 8" woofers

Not sure what the impedance has to do with anything here. hint: it doesn't.



Almost everything you said is wrong or irrelevant [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
I think you have that backwards? It's you that has no idea what you talking about. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/confused.gif[/IMG] "The 708i uses a lower efficiency driver" What does that have to do with total output? absolutely nothing. The PSA spec's 47Hz to 18kHz and the 708i 35Hz to 20Khz.
Have listen to either speaker our are you just like bear have not heard one or the other? I have listen to both and trust me no contest the 708i will play louder and cleaner. You guys need to stop looking at spec's and start listening. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
The 708 is lower efficiency and requires 10 times the power to play at the same levels as the psa stuff, if not even more.

I've heard both. The psa are not good imo, but they'll play louder.

the jbl 708 max spl is 108dbspl.

the psa mtm210 with a sensitivity of 98dbspl will play that loud with only 10w of power. it will take 20w for the mt110 to reach that level.

If that wasn't painfully obvious to you, you're doing something wrong.

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post #3757 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 03:11 AM
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The HF section on the PSAs are trash, so "clean" output levels is going to be debatable. Oldnews horn and driver. On and off axis response will be nowhere even close to as good as the 708s. They'll play louder, though, especially the dual woofer models.
Well, not claiming state of the art technology, but I think calling the B&C DE250 trash is off base. I haven't seen compression sweeps with distortion up to reference level but the home theater shack review did measure distortion below 1% at 95 dB with the old tweeter before they switched to the B&C.

I still say, for folks that want reference level for home theater from a retail or ID speaker in a reasonably sized form factor, PSA is tough to beat for the price. You can certainly pay a lot more for better speakers, or get more from enormous pro cinema stuff. I do tend to recommend PSA for threads where people look for advice for home theater speakers for home theater use with a small budget.....in part because most of the recommendations given are for the speakers people have, or the commonly known low sensitivity retail speakers....the wrong tools for the job imo. With a budget of $2k for LCR, its a bit tough to recommend JBL 708p for LCR, and I think 87 db Polk LSims or Ascend Raal speakers, etc aren't the right speakers for home theater use in home theaters unless folks want to listen quietly. But its what people know so its what they recommend.

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post #3758 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 04:40 AM
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Well, not claiming state of the art technology, but I think calling the B&C DE250 trash is off base.
@notnyt has owned/evaluated/measured more compression drivers than most. I would trust his review.
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post #3759 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 10:46 AM
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The 708 is lower efficiency and requires 10 times the power to play at the same levels as the psa stuff, if not even more.

I've heard both. The psa are not good imo, but they'll play louder.

the jbl 708 max spl is 108dbspl.

the psa mtm210 with a sensitivity of 98dbspl will play that loud with only 10w of power. it will take 20w for the mt110 to reach that level.

If that wasn't painfully obvious to you, you're doing something wrong.
Maybe they will play that loud if they don't blow up before reaching that level. Spl has nothing to do with maximum output of a speaker. It's all about speaker construct and how much power it will handle before it blows. It's quality of materials, size of voice coils and other factors. Remember the JBL 7 series was designed to be a high out put studio monitor for mixing all the music and movies we enjoy. The PSA's we had in house distorted at higher levels and the 7 series is a much better sounding speaker at the same levels. It's hard to beat the R & D at JBL Pro and Harman Luxury. I don't think PSA is at that level IMO.

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post #3760 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 10:48 AM
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Maybe they will play that loud if they don't blow up before reaching that level.
Yea, because the pro drivers in the psa are going to blow up with 10 watts of power.

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Spl has nothing to do with maximum output of a speaker.
SPL is literally a measurement of how loud the speaker is playing. JBL rates the max output of the 708 at 108dbspl.


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Originally Posted by CptSpig View Post
It's all about speaker construct and how much power it will handle before it blows. It's quality of materials, size of voice coils and other factors. Remember the JBL 7 series was designed to be a high out put studio monitor for mixing all the music and movies we enjoy. The PSA's we had in house distorted at higher levels and the 7 series is a much better sounding speaker at the same levels. It's hard to beat the R & D at JBL Pro and Harman Luxury. I don't think PSA is at that level IMO.

Last edited by notnyt; 11-19-2019 at 10:54 AM.
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post #3761 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 10:51 AM
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Well, not claiming state of the art technology, but I think calling the B&C DE250 trash is off base. I haven't seen compression sweeps with distortion up to reference level but the home theater shack review did measure distortion below 1% at 95 dB with the old tweeter before they switched to the B&C.

I still say, for folks that want reference level for home theater from a retail or ID speaker in a reasonably sized form factor, PSA is tough to beat for the price. You can certainly pay a lot more for better speakers, or get more from enormous pro cinema stuff. I do tend to recommend PSA for threads where people look for advice for home theater speakers for home theater use with a small budget.....in part because most of the recommendations given are for the speakers people have, or the commonly known low sensitivity retail speakers....the wrong tools for the job imo. With a budget of $2k for LCR, its a bit tough to recommend JBL 708p for LCR, and I think 87 db Polk LSims or Ascend Raal speakers, etc aren't the right speakers for home theater use in home theaters unless folks want to listen quietly. But its what people know so its what they recommend.
It's not just the compression driver. The horn on it is ancient and the implementation is poor with a rising response up into breakup territory of the CD. As for the value aspect? Sure, they'll play loud for fairly cheap. I was more referring to how the HF section was done than the actual speaker being trash. Not a fan. With some DSP it won't be as bad, but I'm still not a fan of the hardware used on the HF section.
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post #3762 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 11:03 AM
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I think maybe you're just ignorant of how much bass is in music.

Yes, there is plenty of bass below 50hz in music.
There is, of course, and I am aware of that.
But it is too genre-dependent anyway.
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post #3763 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 11:41 AM
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SPL is literally a measurement of how loud the speaker is playing. JBL rates the max output of the 708 at 108dbspl.
SPL is the sensitivity of the speaker not maximum output. All I know is my 7 series speakers are amazing! This is the JBL thread and we are rambling on about inferior speakers (PSA's) so I am out.....

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post #3764 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 11:43 AM
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SPL is the sensitivity of the speaker not maximum output. All I know is my 7 series speakers are amazing! This is the JBL thread and we are rambling on about inferior speakers (PSA's) so I am out.....
SPL is sound pressure level. It is a unit of measurement. It is not the sensitivity of a speaker. You should likely read a bit more on the topic of sound reproduction

Sensitivity of a speaker is the measurement of the output of a speaker in dbspl generally taken at 1 meter distance with 1 watt or 2.83v volts applied.

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SPL is sound pressure level. It is a unit of measurement. It is not the sensitivity of a speaker. You should likely read a bit more on the topic of sound reproduction

Sensitivity of a speaker a measurement of the output of a speaker in dbspl generally taken at 1 meter distance with 1 watt or 2.83v volts applied.
I know exactly what sensitivity means now your are just splitting hairs. I figured a audio god such as your self would understand. No matter what are differences are at the end of the day I still love you man.

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post #3766 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 04:24 PM
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My head hurts from reading the last few pages of this thread.
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post #3767 of 3774 Old 11-19-2019, 11:44 PM
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So if choosing to upgrade to multichannel what would be the better way - first add surrounds or first add a center channel if I can select one at a time.
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post #3768 of 3774 Old 11-20-2019, 12:13 AM
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So if choosing to upgrade to multichannel what would be the better way - first add surrounds or first add a center channel if I can select one at a time.
Center channel in my opinion. Especially if you or anyone sits off center as it helps lock dialogue to the screen.
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post #3769 of 3774 Old 11-20-2019, 01:11 AM
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Nothing good comes from discussing feelings vs. metrics. The LSR708 is _not_ high sensitivity speaker and compared to the PSA speakers mentioned, it is not a high SPL speaker. But that does not mean that it is not a good sounding speaker or a high quality speaker. Those two things should be seperated to have a meaningfull discussion.

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post #3770 of 3774 Old 11-20-2019, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Do you collect video game and movie soundtracks? Or am I the only weird one who does that?

So much good music there.

Back in the day before digital music took off, I used to buy CDs to play on my Aiwa stereo (that's a whole other story). I played tenor sax for 8 years or so and love symphonic orchestra type music. I own the soundtracks for Back to the Future I, II, and III, Jurassic Park (tracks 1-7 are fantastic!), Jurassic Park 2, and The Wizard of Oz, just to name a few. I also bought John Williams' Summon the Heros, which is the soundtrack produced for the Olympics. I haven't listened to a CD in years, but I look forward to breaking out my collection once I get f226Be's!
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post #3771 of 3774 Old 11-20-2019, 12:13 PM
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Thank you, this is a most helpful review. And kudos on not being afraid of subwoofers and bass management where needed - too many in the audiophile class that would be cross-shaping speakers at these price points turn up their noses at augmenting them with subwoofers, but I think you're on the right track. Would love to hear that setup if I'm ever up your way (I'm in SoCal).
I posed the "should I add a sub?" question to the designer, and he was on board. I'm pretty sure he's of the "a-speaker-is never-done-even-if-marketing-and-the suits-say-it-is" persuasion. His personal set up (last I knew) of Everest DD67000s is quite amazing as set up in his room, with DSP management and active (tri- or quad-) amping of the transducers.

When I lived in San Pedro (LA Harbor), I was sometimes active in the LA Home Theater Group here on AVS, and I'd invite folks over for for small events. AVS members ivanpino and sdurani used their experience and ears to help fine tune the sub integration. Now that I'm in the Central Coast, some friends from Lansing Heritage helped me set up the K2s and subs with BSS speaker management (based on curves provided by the designer) that really takes them to another level.

I'm likely to host a small event sometime in early 2020, so I'll let you know when everything is ready in case you can come.
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post #3772 of 3774 Old 11-20-2019, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulburner View Post
Do you collect video game and movie soundtracks? Or am I the only weird one who does that?

So much good music there.
There sure is. Long long before everyone went crazy over the new Hanz Zimmer disc, I was downloading movie scores and theme songs on to burned discs I used to have a TON of them but many never made it through the years and PC's... I need to re-up on some of those oldies. Face-Off, Terminator, Broken Arrow, Saw, Gladiator, The Last Samurai etc. Lots of good ones from back in the day. Lots of good ones now too! I am really digging too the soundtracks that mix in with popular artists like Tron_Legacy and Daft Punk, Oblivion and M83, Even The Social Network and Trent Reznor.
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post #3773 of 3774 Old 11-25-2019, 03:30 PM
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How lower than the main speakers a center channel can be?....
IIRC Toole mentions 0.3 metres. At a typical listening distance of 3 to 3.5 metres, that translates to about 5 degrees.

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post #3774 of 3774 Old 11-25-2019, 03:41 PM
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....I am thinking of switching from 2 to 5 channel for a change next year despite small room size just to try out new things.( I realized that now I listen to classical music a lot and there are plenty of m channel for this genre.)....
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So if choosing to upgrade to multichannel what would be the better way - first add surrounds or first add a center channel if I can select one at a time.
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Center channel in my opinion. Especially if you or anyone sits off center as it helps lock dialogue to the screen.
I think the question related to classical music, so dialog is not critically relevant. And your typical classical music buff likes to sit in the hot seat, IME.


So my answer is that the surround channels are more important and should come first.


cheers

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