Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread - Page 128 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3811 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gwthacker View Post
Christmas in January! Couple of pallets of SCL2, 3, and 4s arrived today for my theater redo.

Congratulations - great speakers! Santa also paid me a visit, but he used his budget on your SCL's so only delivered the LSR's to me (Surrounds and Atmos speakers)

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post #3812 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 03:11 AM
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If I was cut, I would probably bleed JBL but I would never use their subs. There are so many better, and cheaper alternatives out there for home theater.
That's the popular opinion on here and probably why it's so hard to find reviews on such subs. For me personally, as Jonas said, the audible range is far more important to me than frequencies below 20hz. All the room rattles for me are more of a distraction than anything, and for me to feel anything in that frequency range, I would need ridiculous SPL (I'm on a concrete slab in the basement).
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post #3813 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 05:29 AM
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Maybe, but I can't see it outperforming a JTR, Deep See Sound, or DIY dual 18 by looking at the driver specs alone. The 2269H uses the same motor as the M2 15" driver and I don't find the M2 to be a mid-bass monster when run full-range with no subs. It looks more akin to a lower section of a 4722 with 3" larger drivers. If LFE rattles are an issue, use a high-pass filter. Maybe I am wroing which is possible, but I would never do a blind buy at that price to find out. I also prefer the ultra low frequencies when watching movies.
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post #3814 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Maybe, but I can't see it outperforming a JTR, Deep See Sound, or DIY dual 18 by looking at the driver specs alone. The 2269H uses the same motor as the M2 15" driver and I don't find the M2 to be a mid-bass monster when run full-range with no subs. It looks more akin to a lower section of a 4722 with 3" larger drivers. If LFE rattles are an issue, use a high-pass filter. Maybe I am wroing which is possible, but I would never do a blind buy at that price to find out. I also prefer the ultra low frequencies when watching movies.
By saying 'midbass monster' it sounds like you are referring to SPL? And I think you are correct that there are cheaper ways to get monster SPL than the JBL subs.

And this is where it becomes Audiophile'ish, but I believe that bass is not just bass. There is articulation, distortion, ability to hear small nuances etc, where two subs sound different even though both are within their SPL limits. Remember that a subwoofer crossover is not brick wall and it will play above 80hz as well.

I don't have the technical arguments and it might all be placebo... Could be interesting to hear others chime in.

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post #3815 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Maybe, but I can't see it outperforming a JTR, Deep See Sound, or DIY dual 18 by looking at the driver specs alone. The 2269H uses the same motor as the M2 15" driver and I don't find the M2 to be a mid-bass monster when run full-range with no subs. It looks more akin to a lower section of a 4722 with 3" larger drivers. If LFE rattles are an issue, use a high-pass filter. Maybe I am wroing which is possible, but I would never do a blind buy at that price to find out. I also prefer the ultra low frequencies when watching movies.
By saying 'midbass monster' it sounds like you are referring to SPL? And I think you are correct that there are cheaper ways to get monster SPL than the JBL subs.

And this is where it becomes Audiophile'ish, but I believe that bass is not just bass. There is articulation, distortion, ability to hear small nuances etc, where two subs sound different even though both are within their SPL limits. Remember that a subwoofer crossover is not brick wall and it will play above 80hz as well.

I don't have the technical arguments and it might all be placebo... Could be interesting to hear others chime in.

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I’m the same way. The few subs I have heard that were designed to play below 20hz have a kind of bloated sound to them, and don’t really have much detail to my ears. I actually use my M2s full range when listening to music because to my ears, the low frequencies sound better from them then they do from my Submersive HPs. I don’t want to sound audiophile-ish either, but you can actually sense the texture of the sound from the M2s that the SubM’s seem to slightly smear, like the strings on a bass. I heard the S2S-EX as well and they produced bass more like what I enjoy from the M2s. That’s why I want to go the JBL route for subwoofers. I’m not saying anybody is wrong, it’s just a personal choice of mine.

I would love to see a head to head on the JBL 5628 vs the JTR Captivator 4000 ULF. I’m sure the JTR would smoke the JBL below 20hz, but I’m willing to bet it would AT LEAST keep up in the audible range. My opinion is it might have the edge above 25/30 hz.
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post #3816 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
By saying 'midbass monster' it sounds like you are referring to SPL? And I think you are correct that there are cheaper ways to get monster SPL than the JBL subs.

And this is where it becomes Audiophile'ish, but I believe that bass is not just bass. There is articulation, distortion, ability to hear small nuances etc, where two subs sound different even though both are within their SPL limits. Remember that a subwoofer crossover is not brick wall and it will play above 80hz as well.

I don't have the technical arguments and it might all be placebo... Could be interesting to hear others chime in.

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The monster comment was part in parcel to your comment or Blackdevil's comment about the JBL subs output above 20hz. Since they share the same motor as the 15 on the M2, I was drawing a comparison. I don't listen to my system loud, so I am not that "monster" freakish output kinda guy, but I do prefer heavy bass with very low extension for movies. Have you guys tried the Rythmik servo subs? I have not heard them but they are reported as being the most musical subs on the market with fast, punchy drivers? If I ever add subs downstairs to the Revel 228s, it would probably be Rythmik servo unit. Aren't "musical" subs typically smaller and not in a dual 18" footprint? The JBLs seemed geared/marketed toward movie reproduction and I hold fast they will be bested easily in that role by cheaper alternatives. These are the subs they (JBL) uses in their Atmos demos and I have never seen them paired with the M2 or any other speaker as a music demo.
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post #3817 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Molon_Labe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasHansen View Post
By saying 'midbass monster' it sounds like you are referring to SPL? And I think you are correct that there are cheaper ways to get monster SPL than the JBL subs.

And this is where it becomes Audiophile'ish, but I believe that bass is not just bass. There is articulation, distortion, ability to hear small nuances etc, where two subs sound different even though both are within their SPL limits. Remember that a subwoofer crossover is not brick wall and it will play above 80hz as well.

I don't have the technical arguments and it might all be placebo... Could be interesting to hear others chime in.

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The monster comment was part in parcel to your comment or Blackdevil's comment about the JBL subs output above 20hz. Since they share the same motor as the 15 on the M2, I was drawing a comparison. I don't listen to my system loud, so I am not that "monster" freakish output kinda guy, but I do prefer heavy bass with very low extension for movies. Have you guys tried the Rythmik servo subs? I have not heard them but they are reported as being the most musical subs on the market with fast, punchy drivers? If I ever add subs downstairs to the Revel 228s, it would probably be Rythmik servo unit. Aren't "musical" subs typically smaller and not in a dual 18" footprint? The JBLs seemed geared/marketed toward movie reproduction and I hold fast they will be bested easily in that role by cheaper alternatives. These are the subs they (JBL) uses in their Atmos demos and I have never seen them paired with the M2 or any other speaker as a music demo.
This was one review of a JBL sub (S2S-EX) where the reviewer experienced what I’m talking about. I’ve heard the S2S-EX as well and share the same feeling. That’s why I want a JBL sub. I originally wanted the SUB18, but if the 5628 delivers the same “fidelity” for less money, with an additional 2269h driver in the cabinet, it seems like a no brainer if you can physically fit it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...5-a.html?amp=1

“There were a couple of other home theater demos in a similar price range (i.e. Six figures) with great bass response—James Loudspeakers and Steinway Lyngdorf come to mind—but none nailed the textures like JBL. You can read about suspension of disbelief all you want, when it actually happens to you it's a thrill. I knew that the action depicted on screen was not really occurring, but the bass was so realistic, it fooled my brain on a subconscious level. A scene from the film Insurgent was a great test of the system's cinematic chops. In it, the heroine—Tris (played by Shailene Woodley)—is undergoing a psychological test in a potentially lethal simulation. Tris finds herself in a glass cubicle filling with water, and the movie's mix was believable enough to trigger a sense of danger while watching. I've seen the scene before, but this time is was more intense thanks to the fidelity of the Synthesis rig.“

I’m not arguing and saying one is wrong or right. I’m just simply saying I want to try it out based on my experience with the S2S-EX, and hearing from those that owned the S2S-EX ( @adidino ) and then eventually the SUB18, which was reported to be the same in regards to what I want, just more SPL capability.

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post #3818 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 06:53 AM
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I am not doubting a Synthesis demo is "other worldly". I am just doubtful the bass is what made the demo so spectacular and what would that demo sound like with truly potent subs combined with an otherwise Synthesis based system. We will never know because JBL will always use their own subs, but I just can't imagine the same system with 24" Deep Sea Sound or dual 18" JTR subs in place of the JBL subs being "less preferred" Undoubtedly, I could be very wrong.

Are you going to pull the trigger on the sale price? I would think our local AVS "street price" dealers could best the FullCompass sales price. I am interested in hearing your review of them. My home theater days are coming to a close. I am trying to finalize a forklift sale of all my JBL amps/speakers. I will probably be putting up my 24" Deep Sea Sound up for sale in the classified section if/when the JBLs are gone. Just in case you change your mind about those LFE effects
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post #3819 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 07:15 AM
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I am not doubting a Synthesis demo is "other worldly". I am just doubtful the bass is what made the demo so spectacular and what would that demo sound like with truly potent subs combined with an otherwise Synthesis based system. We will never know because JBL will always use their own subs, but I just can't imagine the same system with 24" Deep Sea Sound or dual 18" JTR subs in place of the JBL subs being "less preferred" Undoubtedly, I could be very wrong.

Are you going to pull the trigger on the sale price? I would think our local AVS "street price" dealers could best the FullCompass sales price. I am interested in hearing your review of them. My home theater days are coming to a close. I am trying to finalize a forklift sale of all my JBL amps/speakers. I will probably be putting up my 24" Deep Sea Sound up for sale in the classified section if/when the JBLs are gone. Just in case you change your mind about those LFE effects [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
It’s definitely possible that other subs could do a better job. Just for me personally, I’ve heard ‘em and liked ‘em. So I figured I’d try ‘em lol.

I may if all the numbers work out. Seems too good to pass up. Already inquired about them
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post #3820 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 12:42 PM
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JBL SUB18 they suitable Music ??? i wanted too loud subwoofer heavy bass music only but not movies
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post #3821 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 02:21 PM
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I am trying to finalize a forklift sale of all my JBL amps/speakers. I will probably be putting up my 24" Deep Sea Sound up for sale in the classified section if/when the JBLs are gone. Just in case you change your mind about those LFE effects
Your M2's and Revels and everything?

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post #3822 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 02:53 PM
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I was in the same boat, as in there are better subs for the full price, but at half the price that's a great sub. If you don't care about subsonics. 3 5628's would be awesome.
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post #3823 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 02:54 PM
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For anyone looking at the SUB18, they have the 5628's for half price right now on Full Sale. I'd be snagging a couple if I didn't already have Skhorns.

Still pretty tempted.
FWIW I noticed the prop65 warning on FC's product page so for anyone who cares, the state of California has found that the 5628 may cause cancer. Purchase at your own risk.

Jsin, how are you digging the skhorns these days? I still want a second one. Just need to figure out how to get it to my door

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post #3824 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 03:24 PM
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It’s definitely possible that other subs could do a better job. Just for me personally, I’ve heard ‘em and liked ‘em. So I figured I’d try ‘em lol.

I may if all the numbers work out. Seems too good to pass up. Already inquired about them
I totally understand, i think it's a JBL thing. You will laugh but my first JBL purchase ever were my M2's. By now i think i am officially a Harman fanboy. From time to time i do go and check their subs and think in my new home i might get the SUB18 or one of the other models. not that i am complaining from my current SVS SB16's which are perfectly fine.

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post #3825 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 04:34 PM
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I totally understand, i think it's a JBL thing. You will laugh but my first JBL purchase ever were my M2's. By now i think i am officially a Harman fanboy. From time to time i do go and check their subs and think in my new home i might get the SUB18 or one of the other models. not that i am complaining from my current SVS SB16's which are perfectly fine.
Actually, the M2's are my first JBL's also. Certainly won't be my last. I've always been a fan of good JBL stuff (a lot of the low end stuff is pretty junky, or at least it was). Prior to the M2's, I had Seaton Cat 12C's, prior to those I had Paradigm monitor 7's.
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post #3826 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 07:05 PM
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Your M2's and Revels and everything?
I am keeping the Revels since they are in the living room system. All of the JBL gear will be sold assuming the sale goes through, but I have received several PMs from other parties interested. We shall see.......
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post #3827 of 3895 Old 01-13-2020, 07:20 PM
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FWIW I noticed the prop65 warning on FC's product page so for anyone who cares, the state of California has found that the 5628 may cause cancer. Purchase at your own risk.

Jsin, how are you digging the skhorns these days? I still want a second one. Just need to figure out how to get it to my door
They're pretty amazing, other than the size haha. The only real issue I have is getting the sealed 18's I have to play with them. If you wanted to have three you could buy mine and I could snag these 5628's maybe. Or I guess I could just stick with these.
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post #3828 of 3895 Old 01-14-2020, 12:38 PM
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I am keeping the Revels since they are in the living room system. All of the JBL gear will be sold assuming the sale goes through, but I have received several PMs from other parties interested. We shall see.......
Wow so escaping the game completely again... The revels suffice well enough for that?

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They're pretty amazing, other than the size haha. The only real issue I have is getting the sealed 18's I have to play with them. If you wanted to have three you could buy mine and I could snag these 5628's maybe. Or I guess I could just stick with these.
Haha. I'd love four skhorns, just not enough room to fit em all. two should suffice.
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post #3829 of 3895 Old 01-14-2020, 04:13 PM
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Congratulations - great speakers! Santa also paid me a visit, but he used his budget on your SCL's so only delivered the LSR's to me (Surrounds and Atmos speakers)

Spoiler!
Nice.

Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but what is the size of your room? I can see using the 705i for overhead/Atmos speakers since those channels are usually not "stressed" too much (based on what I've been told) but will they be able to keep up, in terms of SPL, as surround speakers with M2s up front?
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Nice.



Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but what is the size of your room? I can see using the 705i for overhead/Atmos speakers since those channels are usually not "stressed" too much (based on what I've been told) but will they be able to keep up, in terms of SPL, as surround speakers with M2s up front?


I wonder whether we all stress too much about capabilities of atmos speakers. Rob Hahns theater uses JBL SCS8 for atmos. They sell for around $400! Somewhat puts things in perspective.

I think the 705s have a peak max SPL of 107 dB


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post #3831 of 3895 Old 01-14-2020, 07:17 PM
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Wow so escaping the game completely again... The revels suffice well enough for that?



Haha. I'd love four skhorns, just not enough room to fit em all. two should suffice.
Four would be great. I could get away with 3 in my room pretty well, but they are so damn big.
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post #3832 of 3895 Old 01-14-2020, 10:25 PM
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Nice.



Sorry if you've already mentioned this, but what is the size of your room? I can see using the 705i for overhead/Atmos speakers since those channels are usually not "stressed" too much (based on what I've been told) but will they be able to keep up, in terms of SPL, as surround speakers with M2s up front?
That was my main concern about the 705is.

But figured that the compression driver is identical to the SCL's which are used in large room so the spl limit is the woofer. I'm planning to cross them at 100hz instead of 80hz.

I'm sitting 7.5 feet from the surrounds and never listen louder than about 8db below reference.

So summed up, they should be capable.

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post #3833 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 01:42 AM
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I wonder whether we all stress too much about capabilities of atmos speakers. Rob Hahns theater uses JBL SCS8 for atmos. They sell for around $400! Somewhat puts things in perspective.

I think the 705s have a peak max SPL of 107 dB


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True 100% and that HT is my fav room ever.

A thing to remember also is that our ears are designed in a way that overhead/ceiling atmos speakers are hard to distinguish from floor speakers (LCR and 4 surrounds). what i am trying to say is that even if there were any timbre differences then it's really hard to tell i would say nearly impossible for most. Many high-end JBL setups are even using the Revel C763L. In my case i am using six JBL 328c they are basically the in-ceiling version of the SCS8's.

Maybe someday my OCD will kick-in and i am going to get the JBL SCL-5 till that day comes i am going to stick with what i have.

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post #3834 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 09:15 AM
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True 100% and that HT is my fav room ever.

A thing to remember also is that our ears are designed in a way that overhead/ceiling atmos speakers are hard to distinguish from floor speakers (LCR and 4 surrounds). what i am trying to say is that even if there were any timbre differences then it's really hard to tell i would say nearly impossible for most. Many high-end JBL setups are even using the Revel C763L. In my case i am using six JBL 328c they are basically the in-ceiling version of the SCS8's.

Maybe someday my OCD will kick-in and i am going to get the JBL SCL-5 till that day comes i am going to stick with what i have.

Unheard of. You are possibly on the wrong forum. Your AVS card may be revoked!
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post #3835 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 09:42 AM
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I looked at those SCS8s but at 12” deep (without a back box), I couldn’t get them to recess / fit into my ceiling and angle them without them protruding through the ceiling fabric. Rob’s ceiling is quite high and deep high - he had plenty of vertical height to implement. His are ceiling mounted and all hidden via a sheet of GOM cloaking them. If I had another door or depth, I could’ve used these. . The SCL3/4s are just 5.8” deep - easier to implant in my particular ceiling.

Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3836 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I looked at those SCS8s but at 12” deep (without a back box), I couldn’t get them to recess / fit into my ceiling and angle them without them protruding through the ceiling fabric. Rob’s ceiling is quite high and deep high - he had plenty of vertical height to implement. His are ceiling mounted and all hidden via a sheet of GOM cloaking them. If I had another door or depth, I could’ve used these. . The SCL3/4s are just 5.8” deep - easier to implant in my particular ceiling.

For my theater redo, I just ordered a bunch of SCL2, 3, and 4s. Was going to use the scl3s for atmos like you did - but I’m changing to SCL5s. I wanted to be able to point to MLP more easily and I will have 3 in front soffit (will be setup for atmos and dts:x pro) and 3 in rear soffit where only 5s will fit. Now they just need to release them


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post #3837 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post
I looked at those SCS8s but at 12” deep (without a back box), I couldn’t get them to recess / fit into my ceiling and angle them without them protruding through the ceiling fabric. Rob’s ceiling is quite high and deep high - he had plenty of vertical height to implement. His are ceiling mounted and all hidden via a sheet of GOM cloaking them. If I had another door or depth, I could’ve used these. . The SCL3/4s are just 5.8” deep - easier to implant in my particular ceiling.
The 328c's are only 6.3" deep without a back box fwiw. You could make your own backer box if you really wanted to.

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post #3838 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 11:04 AM
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Unheard of. You are possibly on the wrong forum. Your AVS card may be revoked!
Not saying it isn't better to go timbre-matched. but saying that it is hard to tell the difference most of the time. Even till this day, there isn't enough atmos titles yet. from every 10 movies we watch one of them might be that.

As @gwthacker mentioned, Rob Hanh who has one of the best setups ever uses the SCS8's.

If he is happy with them then we are too.

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post #3839 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 11:39 AM
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For my theater redo, I just ordered a bunch of SCL2, 3, and 4s. Was going to use the scl3s for atmos like you did - but I’m changing to SCL5s. I wanted to be able to point to MLP more easily and I will have 3 in front soffit (will be setup for atmos and dts:x pro) and 3 in rear soffit where only 5s will fit. Now they just need to release them


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I read the specs on the SCL 5. My only concern with those is the very limited dispersion of the horn. You might be able to somewhat ameliorate this with a very tall ceiling. That said, off-access loss of high frequencies will likely be significant. I had a similar horn shape in my precious ceiling mounted Quested ceiling speakers. I felt like I lost a lot of the ‘sonic bubble’ due to the limited dispersion that I now have in spades. The SCL wave guide gives so much more dispersion and a better bubble IMO. just something to consider.
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Goodbye to a great audio and video genius and writer... JOHN GANNON. I enjoyed your friendship, wit and a nice long run we took around Indianapolis at CEDIA years back... and for buying my Runco 980 Ultra years back... you saved my ass! Rest in peace.
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post #3840 of 3895 Old 01-15-2020, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Balbolito View Post
Not saying it isn't better to go timbre-matched. but saying that it is hard to tell the difference most of the time. Even till this day, there isn't enough atmos titles yet. from every 10 movies we watch one of them might be that. As @gwthacker mentioned, Rob Hanh who has one of the best setups ever uses the SCS8's. If he is happy with them then we are too.

Sorry if you misinterpreted my post, I was just joking, trying to be funny.
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