Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread - Page 45 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1321 of 3431 Old 01-22-2017, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
I thought that would be the answer. Next best thing to pink noise and all.

I've tried to hear this issue with "Fast Car" before and just can't hear it unless it's a small coax run without bass support. In a 3-way, 8" coax high passed at 80Hz or so, or a 12" coax regardless of bass management, it's a non-issue to my ears.
And I just want to be clear - I was not trying to KEF bash, either. The guys at Harman hold the KEFs in pretty high regard. From my understanding, the IM distortion we are discussing is really most noticeable during the double blind testing procedures, when compared to another speaker that does not exhibit the issue.

From my understanding the KEFs do really good on the Spins, but lose to the Revels in the blinded listening tests for what primarily seems to be this issue. This is not to say that they are not a good speaker.

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post #1322 of 3431 Old 01-22-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Short answer - distortion is audible no matter WHAT room you put a speaker in. For example, KEF speakers do well with the Spinorama, but they all suffer from audible intermodulation distortion (thanks to the Uni-Q design, also one of their strengths). That doesn't show up in the Spins, but can easily be heard with the right program material.

Andrew Jones responded to this argument several years ago on the DYI forum:

"Back in the days when I was at KEF and we were developing the Uni-Q drivers, we also questioned the audibility of any fm or am distortion due to the moving cone.
AM comes from the change in loading of the waveguide upon the tweeter as the cone moves forward or backward. If you measure the tweeter frequency response for different positions of the cone you do see changes in the frequency response of the tweeter, both in shape and sensitivity. This contributes to the AM.
The fact that the cone is moving due to the bass signals does give rise to some doppler, but there is also a similar effect occuring in all speakers, as part of the baffle of the speaker that is close to the tweeter is in fact the bass cone!
Although not as severe because the coupling is less, there is a measurable effect.
We measured other types of coax units, such as the TAnnoy dual concentric, and of course observed similar levels of distortion products.
We also measure the Quad ESL63 as a reference point. Being a full range diaphragm, this should have the highest levels of doppler.
The level of sidebands were lower but not greatly so. From this we made a simple conclusion. If the ESL sounds as good as it obviously does, with these levels of doppler, then it is a distortion mechanism we do not have to worry too much about!!
Of course this still leaves the issues of AM. The clear solution to this is to minimize cone displacement.
A two way based coax speaker system is the most difficult to engineer. Not only does the cone move a long way, but the half-roll surround that is neccessary for such displacement wreaks havock on the diffraction of the tweeter wavefront on axis. That is one reason why co-axials should always be listenened to around 10-15 deg off-axis. As Pallas said, toe the speaker inwards so that the axis crosses in front of the listener. This stabilizes the center image and also minimizes sidwall reflections.
Limiting the bandwidth of the driver to around 200 or 300Hz, in a three way system, greatly diminishes all these negative effects, and allows one to design a surround that does not mess up the diffraction, so that even on axis the response is good.
This is the approach I have used ever since."
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post #1323 of 3431 Old 01-22-2017, 07:03 PM
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Jones just went down in my estimation with that waffle about the ESL being sufficient proof that there is nothing to worry about.

That still leaves him well above most. 😚

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post #1324 of 3431 Old 01-22-2017, 10:42 PM
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Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
And I just want to be clear - I was not trying to KEF bash, either. The guys at Harman hold the KEFs in pretty high regard. From my understanding, the IM distortion we are discussing is really most noticeable during the double blind testing procedures, when compared to another speaker that does not exhibit the issue.



From my understanding the KEFs do really good on the Spins, but lose to the Revels in the blinded listening tests for what primarily seems to be this issue. This is not to say that they are not a good speaker.


I didn't take it as a slight against KEF. I've heard Harman folks say the same thing about other brands of coax speakers.

I think a credible alternative explanation is that speakers built around coaxes usually* have narrower directivity, and the Harman mono tests generally show a preference for wider directivity. Look at the Stereophile horizontal off-axis measurements of the KEF 207/2 vs Revel Salon2 for an example.

*Andrew Jones's recentish designs are an exception. See Stereophile's horizontal off-axis measurements for Pioneer S-1EX and its successor, TAD Evolution 1, etc. I've not seen ELAC measurements but they seem to use a similarly shallow midrange cone/waveguide.

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Last edited by DS-21; 01-23-2017 at 02:06 AM.
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post #1325 of 3431 Old 01-23-2017, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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FYI for anyone looking to get a set of JBL 4312SE Studio Monitors from their Synthesis dealer, keep in mind that these are limited edition and once they are gone, they are gone. According to my regional rep, pre-orders for these are already rolling in and he expects them to be sold out in a few months.

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post #1326 of 3431 Old 01-27-2017, 07:20 AM
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Hey @Blackdevil77 Has the m2 demo taken place yet? Your thoughts good sir?

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post #1327 of 3431 Old 01-27-2017, 07:30 AM
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Hey @Blackdevil77 Has the m2 demo taken place yet? Your thoughts good sir?
Yes sir, it did. Just yesterday actually at Gooddoc's house and I brought my Cat 12C's for an A/B comparison. I posted about it in the M2 thread here and so did he:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...onitor-64.html

In short, I love them. I couldn't find anything I didn't like about them, other than I don't own them. Yet They just do everything right. I never heard such revealing transparency and detail presented in such a smooth, non fatiguing way. No matter what the volume, whether it was whisper quiet or blasting. Subtle nuances were always conveyed impeccably without any harshness or strain at any level. I never heard a speaker do that before. Best sounding speakers I have ever heard.
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post #1328 of 3431 Old 01-28-2017, 03:59 AM
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ICYMI... medium venue and small venue. Funny how 4722 and 3722 aren't shown.
http://pro.harman.com/applications/cinema
Harman Pro Cinema Solutions PDF
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post #1329 of 3431 Old 01-28-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
ICYMI... medium venue and small venue. Funny how 4722 and 3722 aren't shown.
http://pro.harman.com/applications/cinema
Harman Pro Cinema Solutions PDF
Neither are any of the speakers originally mentioned in this thread, was there a point to that? There are a lot of cinema speakers that aren't listed.
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post #1330 of 3431 Old 01-28-2017, 04:25 PM
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Yes sir, it did. Just yesterday actually at Gooddoc's house and I brought my Cat 12C's for an A/B comparison. I posted about it in the M2 thread here and so did he:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-spe...onitor-64.html

In short, I love them. I couldn't find anything I didn't like about them, other than I don't own them. Yet They just do everything right. I never heard such revealing transparency and detail presented in such a smooth, non fatiguing way. No matter what the volume, whether it was whisper quiet or blasting. Subtle nuances were always conveyed impeccably without any harshness or strain at any level. I never heard a speaker do that before. Best sounding speakers I have ever heard.
Not surprised! @Gooddoc is where I first heard them as well.
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post #1331 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Been listening to Scott Wilkinson's excellent interview with Tim Hoogenakker at Formosa Sound, who does a great deal of work translating theatrical mixes (ATMOS and otherwise) to home theater mixes. He touches on many of the same points I've been trying to make about near field, mid field and far field monitors, plus about how sound intended for a large space needs to be "reigned in" for smaller spaces (about 12 minutes and 30 seconds in). He also talks about the differences between compression drivers and dome tweeters, and how that needs to be taken into account when re-mixing as well. He does not get into specific calibration numbers, but he also talks about how playing a theatrical mix at reference levels through speakers 9 foot away from you will tear your head off .

The mix room he works in has a large screen and is *just* large enough to do a theatrical mix (he has Meyer Sound theatrical speakers behind the screen) but smaller Adam monitors for when he is doing a home theater mix translation, combined with a Genelec sub. Obviously this is just one of many mix rooms in the country and around the world, but the same philosophies and science applies.

Definitely worth your time if you really want to understand how a film mix is created, with a great video illustration of how ATMOS mixes are created using "objects" panned around in 3D space.


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post #1332 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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One of my favorite parts of the video above is where Tim makes the point about how filmmakers want to put rain sounds over your head, but that in reality the sound we hear outside is of water hitting the pavement!

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post #1333 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 11:31 AM
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One of my favorite parts of the video above is where Tim makes the point about how filmmakers want to put rain sounds over your head, but that in reality the sound we hear outside is of water hitting the pavement!
we clearly need in floor speakers. atmos 2.0
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post #1334 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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LOL! When we were at the immersive audio seminar given by Harman at CEDIA, one of the things discussed was how the Synthesis SDP75 would re-matrix ATMOS heights to emulate the Aurio "Voice of God" channel. I asked if JBL was going to come up with an in-floor system for the eventual "Voice of Satan" channel
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post #1335 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 11:49 AM
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One of my favorite parts of the video above is where Tim makes the point about how filmmakers want to put rain sounds over your head, but that in reality the sound we hear outside is of water hitting the pavement!
and the roof.
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post #1336 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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and the roof.
True, and that's mentioned, but most of the time in movies they put us in rainstorms outside

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post #1337 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 12:13 PM
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How about the rain in the forest and in the jungle hitting the tree tops?

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post #1338 of 3431 Old 02-02-2017, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, you win

You can hear Tim tackle the subject at 29:45.

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post #1339 of 3431 Old 02-03-2017, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
A response:

Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car" is good.

Any material with vocals over a strong deep bass line. Female vocals tend to highlight IMD because we usually expect females to sound smooth. Bonnie Rait, Norah Jones and Lourde all have suitable material.

Any coax speaker will exhibit IMD, but especially 2-way speakers. This is not meant to pick on KEF, specifically. The worst offenders are full range speakers, especially small ones like small Bluetooth speakers.
It is funny that you picked that track. I really don't much care for that song, but when I visited Dr. Geddes's home many years back, we had a good discussion about a lot of things. He said that was one of his reference tracks. There is something about her voice that he explained that I don't remember the exact explanation, but something about the overtones and the range that we are very acutely attuned to. His wife is an audiologist iirc, so there might be some science behind that.

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post #1340 of 3431 Old 02-03-2017, 07:14 AM
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I am about to completely join the party.

I have just purchased two JBL G-734s and I have a third one on it's way. These speakers will be my LCR. I am upgrading from the Berries B212XL.

I am running JBL 8330A's for surrounds and a JBL LSR2310SP for my subwoofer all powered by a Pioneer Elite SC-37. I'll do a review of the G-734s soon once I get a chance to compare them to the better B215XLs.

The G-734's use the same CD as the JBL 3677, everything else is slightly different but they likely are closest to the JBL 3677.
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post #1341 of 3431 Old 02-03-2017, 08:09 AM
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RE: Tracy Chapman's "Fast Car".

Many years ago, that track was suggested as a good reference at an Audio Engineering Society Convention. Not sure exactly what year, but I was there. Whoever suggested it said it was good because of the simplicity and purity of the parts (i.e. the arrangement), the mix balance and quality of the recorded tracks.

I have used it off on on over the years and when it was brought up here recently, I gave it a good listen on my Revel F208's and in my car.

It is indeed very well done and a good reference CD, especially for female vocal and acoustic guitar.

For bass guitar and drums, I keep coming back to Donald Fagen's "Morph the Cat". I'm so tired of hearing that track because I need to keep using it to balance the subs with the mains on the PA system at a church where I do live sound mixing. The other guy who mixes when I'm not there (we trade off every other week) likes to boost the feed to the subs (level control on back of the console via the mono out), so before I can start sound check, I have to dial the subs in. I play the opening bars a few times and adjust the level as I turn the subs off and on. I can get them back to a good balance very quickly because the bass and kick drum are so well recorded and mixed.

Now if I could only get the band to play that well....
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post #1342 of 3431 Old 02-03-2017, 05:28 PM
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^^^

We had a button to "engage" bass boost on the board. Basically it kicked in an eq band. The youngsters love that bass. The BUTTON was never pushed on my Sundays...

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post #1343 of 3431 Old 02-03-2017, 05:50 PM
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It is funny that you picked that track. I really don't much care for that song, but when I visited Dr. Geddes's home many years back, we had a good discussion about a lot of things. He said that was one of his reference tracks. There is something about her voice that he explained that I don't remember the exact explanation, but something about the overtones and the range that we are very acutely attuned to. His wife is an audiologist iirc, so there might be some science behind that.
Did you get to hear his speakers?
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post #1344 of 3431 Old 02-04-2017, 06:11 AM
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Yeah, that is why I visited his place.

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post #1345 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 06:25 PM
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ICYMI... JBL SCL-2.
(pics from the JBL Synthesis FB page)
TWICE article
Quote:
The SCL-2 is designed with a 2.5-way, triple 8-inch (200mm) driver configuration for low-frequency extension with high output capability and powerful dynamics. A D2415K dual voice coil, dual 1.5-inch (38mm) annular ring diaphragm Teonex® compression driver with advanced HDI geometry horn works in conjunction with powerful cast-frame, 8-inch (200mm) Advanced Aluminum Matrix cone woofers with low distortion motor structures.
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post #1346 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 06:36 PM
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ICYMI... JBL SCL-2.
(pics from the JBL Synthesis FB page)
TWICE article
Now that is getting interesting!

The other scl's were like toys.

The pricing on them is a bit nutty, but they look nice. Energy transfer to the walls may be a bit of a concern.
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post #1347 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 06:51 PM
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And they sound great, heard them several months ago. Another game changer...
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post #1348 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 06:54 PM
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Pricing does seem a bit wacky.
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UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
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post #1349 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 07:02 PM
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ICYMI... JBL SCL-2.
(pics from the JBL Synthesis FB page)
TWICE article
Now these look like they can keep up with the M2's!
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post #1350 of 3431 Old 02-08-2017, 07:27 PM
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I can absolutely attest to the fact they will, spent some quality eval time with them in their "proto" stage.
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