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post #2371 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 07:57 AM
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@John Schuermann @Nyal Mellor

Thanks for the response guys. Interesting read on toe-in. Some of it I had read before, but a lot was new. I hadn't seen Duke LeJeune's name in years.

Nyal, I'm afraid you're right. With my current room configuration, I have somewhat designed myself into a corner, both figuratively and literally. I purposely picked the widest screen possible for my 13.5' wide room while leaving just enough space for a Danley SM60F on either side. The screen is a non-AT Stewart ST130, so no CC for now. As you probably know, Tom Danley recommends placing his Synergy horns with one side of the trapezoidal cabinet flat against the side walls (which creates toe-in as well). My Anthem AVR does a great job of EQing the low frequency SBIR caused by this placement. At higher frequencies the very tight dispersion control of the Danleys seem to do a great job of limiting early reflections from the adjacent side wall (I currently have no early reflection treatments on my side walls). The sound seems very spacious and detailed, so I believe Tom is right on re placing his horns for HTs. My problem with the Danleys is their FR has a lot of bumps and dips compared to the JBL Synthesis line which is what has me considering something different.

If the SCL in-walls won't work in my tight corners, I guess my other option is to convert to an AT screen, but that creates other compromises (audio, video, and cost). I already have a 6" space behind my current screen for front wall treatments, so the SCLs shouldn't require pulling the screen any further into the room than it already is. I'm also looking at the LSR708s, but they would require creating some more space behind the screen.

Thanks for your help,
Darrell
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post #2372 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
@John Schuermann @Nyal Mellor

Thanks for the response guys. Interesting read on toe-in. Some of it I had read before, but a lot was new. I hadn't seen Duke LeJeune's name in years.

Nyal, I'm afraid you're right. With my current room configuration, I have somewhat designed myself into a corner, both figuratively and literally. I purposely picked the widest screen possible for my 13.5' wide room while leaving just enough space for a Danley SM60F on either side. The screen is a non-AT Stewart ST130, so no CC for now. As you probably know, Tom Danley recommends placing his Synergy horns with one side of the trapezoidal cabinet flat against the side walls (which creates toe-in as well). My Anthem AVR does a great job of EQing the low frequency SBIR caused by this placement. At higher frequencies the very tight dispersion control of the Danleys seem to do a great job of limiting early reflections from the adjacent side wall (I currently have no early reflection treatments on my side walls). The sound seems very spacious and detailed, so I believe Tom is right on re placing his horns for HTs. My problem with the Danleys is their FR has a lot of bumps and dips compared to the JBL Synthesis line which is what has me considering something different.

If the SCL in-walls won't work in my tight corners, I guess my other option is to convert to an AT screen, but that creates other compromises (audio, video, and cost). I already have a 6" space behind my current screen for front wall treatments, so the SCLs shouldn't require pulling the screen any further into the room than it already is. I'm also looking at the LSR708s, but they would require creating some more space behind the screen.

Thanks for your help,
Darrell
The SM60F is a 60 degree dispersion speaker, the SCL-2 is likely 120...quite a difference there!

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post #2373 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
The SM60F is a 60 degree dispersion speaker, the SCL-2 is likely 120...quite a difference there!
Yes, I realize the SCL's dispersion is quite different from what I have now. From JBL's SCL spec sheets, I believe the SCL-4 is 120x120, but the SCL-2 is closer to 100x100 since it has a deeper waveguide. Still a big difference though from what I have now.

After reading thru the M2 vs Salon2 shootout thread, I'm wondering if the Danleys have too narrow of a dispersion pattern (at least horizontally). From what I've read generally, narrow dispersion is better for the front LCR for multi-channel music or movies, but wider dispersion and maybe increased room interaction (properly controlled for early reflections) is better for 2-channel listening. Like I said in the last post, I'm pretty happy with how my current SM60Fs sound spatially on 2-channel music, at least based on other speakers I've owned. I think it's the FR anomalies that are bugging me.

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #2374 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Got this from Synthesis tech support - good general info here, plus their answer to your question:

Toe in is not necessary with the SCL’s, as they have very wide dispersion.

18” from the side walls is ideal. If you are crossing over at 80Hz, you will have almost no boundary effect, so this is not may not be a concern. Just keep in mind, if you are mounting the LR speakers outside of the projection screen you want to avoid having them too wide resulting in an exaggerated front stage.

Using a compression driver and acoustically transparent screen, you can get as close to the screen as possible without physically touching it.
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post #2375 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
As you probably know, Tom Danley recommends placing his Synergy horns with one side of the trapezoidal cabinet flat against the side walls (which creates toe-in as well). My Anthem AVR does a great job of EQing the low frequency SBIR caused by this placement. At higher frequencies the very tight dispersion control of the Danleys seem to do a great job of limiting early reflections from the adjacent side wall (I currently have no early reflection treatments on my side walls). The sound seems very spacious and detailed, so I believe Tom is right on re placing his horns for HTs. My problem with the Danleys is their FR has a lot of bumps and dips compared to the JBL Synthesis line which is what has me considering something different.
If the Anthem room correction is not correcting the bumps/dips sufficiently (assumng they are below the 5 kHz ARC cutoff), it might not think they originate in the speaker, but from the environment -- the former being correctable but the latter maybe not. If that's the case, that would suggest adding some absobers in the side walls, right up to the speaker, might help. Then try another run of ARC.

If indeed it is the proximity to the wall causing the issue, a different speaker may not do any better. Got some absorbers? Pillows?
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post #2376 of 4204 Old 08-22-2017, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If the Anthem room correction is not correcting the bumps/dips sufficiently (assumng they are below the 5 kHz ARC cutoff), it might not think they originate in the speaker, but from the environment -- the former being correctable but the latter maybe not. If that's the case, that would suggest adding some absobers in the side walls, right up to the speaker, might help. Then try another run of ARC.

If indeed it is the proximity to the wall causing the issue, a different speaker may not do any better. Got some absorbers? Pillows?
Thanks for responding Roger. I have experimented with different ARC cutoffs, and it seems around a 1.2 kHz cutoff sounds best given my current room setup. Ideally, I would like to get the ARC cutoff down to around 400-500 Hz and just have ARC fix the response below Schroeder. I'll try adding some side wall absorption like you said next to the speakers, but unfortunately on one side of the room, there is only about 14" between the speaker and a recessed window opening on that side.

The other option I'm considering is getting a miniDSP to fix the speakers' wide-band anechoic FR and see how well that works with a lower ARC cutoff. At the very least I need to do some anechoic measurements to determine which FR response problems are coming from the room vs the speakers.
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post #2377 of 4204 Old 08-23-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Got this from Synthesis tech support - good general info here, plus their answer to your question:


Using a compression driver and acoustically transparent screen, you can get as close to the screen as possible without physically touching it.
This goes for both weave and perforated? I thought 8-12" was required behind perforated screen.
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post #2378 of 4204 Old 08-23-2017, 09:09 AM
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Thanks for responding Roger. I have experimented with different ARC cutoffs, and it seems around a 1.2 kHz cutoff sounds best given my current room setup. Ideally, I would like to get the ARC cutoff down to around 400-500 Hz and just have ARC fix the response below Schroeder. I'll try adding some side wall absorption like you said next to the speakers, but unfortunately on one side of the room, there is only about 14" between the speaker and a recessed window opening on that side.

The other option I'm considering is getting a miniDSP to fix the speakers' wide-band anechoic FR and see how well that works with a lower ARC cutoff. At the very least I need to do some anechoic measurements to determine which FR response problems are coming from the room vs the speakers.
Having had the sm60f and then the SH50's for several years, Some ipsilateral treatments aren't going to yield you much benefit with them, with that tight 60 degree pattern, but you will definitely want to tackle the contralateral reflections. I actually ended up finding in both cases that I liked a little less toe in than doing exactly what Tom was suggesting and what you've followed. I pulled both about 2 feet (to horn center) off the wall and angled them ever so slightly back from having the side of the enclosure being parallel with the side wall. It opened up the soundstage a good bit and actually ended up providing a better native response at the MLP.

Not saying you haven't tried this already but it's definitely worth a shot. Looking at the anechoic data on danley's site again and there is nothing a little PEQ can't handle if you do decide to go that route.
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post #2379 of 4204 Old 08-24-2017, 08:05 PM
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SDEC-1000a

I recently acquired a JBL Synthesis One System that included (2) SDEC-1000a's. Just a quick question are you, the owner, able to adjust those without having JBL do a house call? Or are they pretty much paper weights now without a tech.
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post #2380 of 4204 Old 08-24-2017, 09:21 PM
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Having had the sm60f and then the SH50's for several years, Some ipsilateral treatments aren't going to yield you much benefit with them, with that tight 60 degree pattern, but you will definitely want to tackle the contralateral reflections. I actually ended up finding in both cases that I liked a little less toe in than doing exactly what Tom was suggesting and what you've followed. I pulled both about 2 feet (to horn center) off the wall and angled them ever so slightly back from having the side of the enclosure being parallel with the side wall. It opened up the soundstage a good bit and actually ended up providing a better native response at the MLP.

Not saying you haven't tried this already but it's definitely worth a shot. Looking at the anechoic data on danley's site again and there is nothing a little PEQ can't handle if you do decide to go that route.
Thanks beast, but I don't have room to do what you're describing without the SM60Fs blocking part of the screen. I will be adding my own HT build thread to the Dedicated Theater Design and Construction forum (hopefully by this weekend). It will have room diagrams and pictures that will better illustrate my placement constraints. In the meantime, I think I've already stunk up this JBL thread enough with my Danley issues.
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post #2381 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 01:52 AM
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I recently acquired a JBL Synthesis One System that included (2) SDEC-1000a's. Just a quick question are you, the owner, able to adjust those without having JBL do a house call? Or are they pretty much paper weights now without a tech.

similar question...I'd like to buy 2nd hand a 4500P, do I need a JBL technician in home or may I have the possibility to interact with it via ethernet and a browser or an available software in order to set it up for my configuration?
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post #2382 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 06:36 AM
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Thanks beast, but I don't have room to do what you're describing without the SM60Fs blocking part of the screen. I will be adding my own HT build thread to the Dedicated Theater Design and Construction forum (hopefully by this weekend). It will have room diagrams and pictures that will better illustrate my placement constraints. In the meantime, I think I've already stunk up this JBL thread enough with my Danley issues.
Shoot me a link when you get it up. I'd love to follow your progress. And, FWIW, half the guys in this thread have either owned, or heard more than once danley speakers so i feel your posts are more than appropriate. They are some incredible speakers no doubt.

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post #2383 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I recently acquired a JBL Synthesis One System that included (2) SDEC-1000a's. Just a quick question are you, the owner, able to adjust those without having JBL do a house call? Or are they pretty much paper weights now without a tech.
I hate to say it, but I don't think the SDEC1000 is even supported anymore (it's way, way before my time). I do know someone who might be able to calibrate it - they are independent from JBL but still authorized. You can PM me for their contact info if you like.

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post #2384 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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similar question...I'd like to buy 2nd hand a 4500P, do I need a JBL technician in home or may I have the possibility to interact with it via ethernet and a browser or an available software in order to set it up for my configuration?
You need the ARCOS software and the eight microphone kit to even do a calibration. Only a JBL Synthesis calibrator has access to those, sorry to say.

The SDP75 is the only piece of Synthesis hardware that allows for user calibrations, I'm afraid.

More on that later...

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post #2385 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 01:11 PM
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You need the ARCOS software and the eight microphone kit to even do a calibration. Only a JBL Synthesis calibrator has access to those, sorry to say.

The SDP75 is the only piece of Synthesis hardware that allows for user calibrations, I'm afraid.

More on that later...
I was hoping it was old enough that there was some kind of work around, oh well! Active 2 way crossovers it is for the 3 S1M's, then let Audyssey do the calibration.
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post #2386 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I was hoping it was old enough that there was some kind of work around, oh well! Active 2 way crossovers it is for the 3 S1M's, then let Audyssey do the calibration.
Good luck, and have fun!

One thing to consider, if you don't want to seek out Synthesis calibration. You might look at an Anthem pre-pro / receiver when you do your next upgrade - their ARC room correction is considerably better than Audyssey (it's been discussed here in this thread pretty extensively, if you want to go looking - also in the JBL M2 thread).

Either way, welcome to the world of Synthesis!

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post #2387 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 02:21 PM
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Good luck, and have fun!

One thing to consider, if you don't want to seek out Synthesis calibration. You might look at an Anthem pre-pro / receiver when you do your next upgrade - their ARC room correction is considerably better than Audyssey (it's been discussed here in this thread pretty extensively, if you want to go looking - also in the JBL M2 thread).

Either way, welcome to the world of Synthesis!
Thank you. I'll look into it.
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post #2388 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 04:08 PM
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You need the ARCOS software and the eight microphone kit to even do a calibration. Only a JBL Synthesis calibrator has access to those, sorry to say.

The SDP75 is the only piece of Synthesis hardware that allows for user calibrations, I'm afraid.

More on that later...
Ok, in an SDP75 can I perform a calibration like in a normal processor? Mic + cable + analysis in different location, all automated? with M2 as LCR too? Or do I have to enter specific and, to me unknown, data for X-Over, roll-off....
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post #2389 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, in an SDP75 can I perform a calibration like in a normal processor? Mic + cable + analysis in different location, all automated? with M2 as LCR too? Or do I have to enter specific and, to me unknown, data for X-Over, roll-off....
Not everything is automated. Curt Hoyt from Trinnov and I fine tuned the crossovers per speaker, and blend with subwoofers per speaker. Not too hard to do once you understand how it works, but not anything like Audyssey or ARC either. However, the flexibility of this thing is off the charts.

For example:

I was able to set crossovers at 50 hz for the L&R M2s (based on the measurements), 80 hz for the center M2 (again, based on measurements), then blend those with front and rear subs. I set the LSR708i rear and side surrounds to 80 hz, then the ceiling Revel C763Ls to 140 hz. Here's where it gets cool: since setting a crossover at 140 hz means that the bass sent to the subwoofer could possibly be localized to the subs. So here is what we did - we sent everything below 140 hz for the front height speakers to the front subs, and everything below 140 hz for the rear heights to the rear subs. That way the directionality of the height information is maintained

You can also weigh the various measurements in the room and save presets that favor particular seating positions. For example, you can set a preset that favors the main listening position, or just the front row, or the rear row, or both - you get the idea. You can also examine each measurement and eliminate those that could possibly throw the averaqing way off. With 29 presets, you can cover just about every scenario you can imagine.

But the rest of it - mic, cable, analysis in multiple locations - yes, it's pretty much like other processors out there. It sets delays, distances, etc all automatically. And the EQ itself is all automated, except for the crossover settings I mentioned. You also need to "draw" your room in the initial setup, but that's easy to do and fun

I just posted this about it in my speaker shootout thread:

As Dr. Toole says, it's not nearly as simple as running something like ARC or Audyssey - you really have to know what you're doing.

On the positive side, it's really encouraging to me that the SDP75 mic WILL be available for those who DO know what they are doing to perform their own calibrations. That said, while the SDP75 is a tweaker's dream, it's certainly not plug and play if you want to get the most out of it. When I did my setup, I was able to call on Curt Hoyt of Trinnov to help walk me through the various options over the phone. The best part about it was that he could log in to my SDP75 from off site and "drive" whenever he needed to, and I could watch his moves in real time. Curt was patient, thorough, and really helped me understand everything that was going on.

I'm going to write much more about the SDP75 here soon, probably in the Synthesis thread (I will post a link here). Let me just get this out of the way - for anyone considering getting one of these and attempting their own calibration, the $150 per hour Curt charges for off-site calibration help is absolutely worth it.

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post #2390 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 04:58 PM
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@John Schuermann

Eh, how many hours?
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post #2391 of 4204 Old 08-25-2017, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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@John Schuermann

Eh, how many hours?
How many hours did I spend on the phone with Curt? I would say three during initial setup, then I had a couple of follow up calls that took about 10 - 15 minutes each. All in all, probably 4 hours cumulatively.

Curt is a joy to work with - at first I was afraid the remote session would blaze by so fast that there would be no way I could keep up with him, or go so slow where I was way ahead. Instead, the pace was just perfect for me. I make it a practice to repeat back everything I am told to make sure I understand correctly, and Curt was extremely patient with that. This came in handy when he was making live changes as I watched, and I was checking my understanding of each step he took.

So, if you are considering a $23K plus processor, spending about $500 - $600 on some hand-holding is definitely worth it. Curt also does on-site consulting as well, at $200 per hour.
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post #2392 of 4204 Old 08-26-2017, 02:00 AM
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sorry, a typo on the previous message, so I trashed it.

With Trinnov/SDP75 can you draw rectangular only rooms or irrugular ones, too? Mine is L-shape and front subs will be on the front-left of the room, where the short segment of the L-shaped room ends. I also could put them behind the screen but they would stay only 2 inches away. maybe too close for 2 S2S-EX. The rear subs will have no problem, they'll seat laterally on the 2nr-row floor level. (old room has been trashed and the new one is in developing, The end of November will probably be the D-Day I can't wait)

Thank you very much John for your exhaustive answer.
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post #2393 of 4204 Old 08-26-2017, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stefanop View Post
sorry, a typo on the previous message, so I trashed it.

With Trinnov/SDP75 can you draw rectangular only rooms or irrugular ones, too? Mine is L-shape and front subs will be on the front-left of the room, where the short segment of the L-shaped room ends. I also could put them behind the screen but they would stay only 2 inches away. maybe too close for 2 S2S-EX. The rear subs will have no problem, they'll seat laterally on the 2nr-row floor level. (old room has been trashed and the new one is in developing, The end of November will probably be the D-Day I can't wait)

Thank you very much John for your exhaustive answer.
No problem

Probably made it sound sexier than it is - you just choose your room configuration in terms of number of speakers and their locations. You can also dial in basic dimensions of your room. Below is a screen grab:

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post #2394 of 4204 Old 08-26-2017, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
How many hours did I spend on the phone with Curt? I would say three during initial setup, then I had a couple of follow up calls that took about 10 - 15 minutes each. All in all, probably 4 hours cumulatively.

Curt is a joy to work with - at first I was afraid the remote session would blaze by so fast that there would be no way I could keep up with him, or go so slow where I was way ahead. Instead, the pace was just perfect for me. I make it a practice to repeat back everything I am told to make sure I understand correctly, and Curt was extremely patient with that. This came in handy when he was making live changes as I watched, and I was checking my understanding of each step he took.

So, if you are considering a $23K plus processor, spending about $500 - $600 on some hand-holding is definitely worth it. Curt also does on-site consulting as well, at $200 per hour.
Indeed! Just spent several days with Curt. He's a good man who really knows what he's doing. This is a complicated box with endless possibilities. Having access to him is a very big blessing.
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post #2395 of 4204 Old 08-26-2017, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
No problem

Probably made it sound sexier than it is - you just choose your room configuration in terms of number of speakers and their locations. You can also dial in basic dimensions of your room. Below is a screen grab:

Sorry but from your screenshot I can't understand if I can draw an L-Shaped room. Or should I necessarily draw a parallelepipedal room and position the speakers as they would be in my L-shaped room?
and so one more question, may I draw each speakers in any desired point?(X,Y,Z)

thanks in advance John.
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post #2396 of 4204 Old 08-26-2017, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by stefanop View Post
Sorry but from your screenshot I can't understand if I can draw an L-Shaped room. Or should I necessarily draw a parallelepipedal room and position the speakers as they would be in my L-shaped room?
and so one more question, may I draw each speakers in any desired point?(X,Y,Z)

thanks in advance John.

It's likely that the GUI assumes you have a Rectangular room and you only put in length/width/height. My assumption based on the input parameters and John's response.
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post #2397 of 4204 Old 08-27-2017, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stefanop View Post
Sorry but from your screenshot I can't understand if I can draw an L-Shaped room. Or should I necessarily draw a parallelepipedal room and position the speakers as they would be in my L-shaped room?
and so one more question, may I draw each speakers in any desired point?(X,Y,Z)

thanks in advance John.
Jsin_N is correct - sorry my explanation was not more concise. The drawing of the room is limited to rectangular, but you can rotate it in 3D space

Even though you can't "draw" the room more precisely, the 3D microphone used to measure the room enables the software to figure out all of the positions and elevations out for you, then draws the placements on a series of graphs.

More later - headed to an appt -

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post #2398 of 4204 Old 08-27-2017, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick note -

Now that my basic parameters have been put in and I know what I'm doing, I just went back and re-measured / calibrated my room now that the Salon2s are the main L&R speakers. Measuring 7 positions took about 25 minutes. The process is quicker than Audyssey, about the same time as ARC.
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post #2399 of 4204 Old 08-27-2017, 12:47 PM
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Thank you Dr. Toole. You probably have already mentioned it here. But could you give me a reference again for the article that shows correlation between spinorama smoothness and user preference. Was that experiment done double blind? In that experts analyzing the spinoramas did not know which speakers they belong to?

I see that NRCC has many speakers evaluated. I was wondering if that measurement would be enough for experts to predict use preference and if that correlation would also be close to 80%

Thanks in advance.

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post #2400 of 4204 Old 08-27-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
Thank you Dr. Toole. You probably have already mentioned it here. But could you give me a reference again for the article that shows correlation between spinorama smoothness and user preference. Was that experiment done double blind? In that experts analyzing the spinoramas did not know which speakers they belong to?

I see that NRCC has many speakers evaluated. I was wondering if that measurement would be enough for experts to predict use preference and if that correlation would also be close to 80%

Thanks in advance.

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You have asked a question for which there is no short answer. It is in my book, and the original references are:
Olive, S.E. (2004a). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 1 – listening test results”, 116th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6113.
Olive, S.E. (2004b). “A multiple regression model for predicting loudspeaker preference using objective measurements: part 2 – development of the model”, 117th Convention, Audio Eng. Soc., Preprint 6190.
All subjective evaluations were double blind. It was a computer that "analyzed" the spinoramas - it didn't care what speakers they belonged to

The NRCC data are very good indicators of performance but they are not in spinorama format.
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