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post #2671 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
MSO does assume a lot of knowledge on the part of the user. The DDRC-88A is unnecessary for using MSO, and doesn't make using MSO any easier than other miniDSP devices that can import biquad text files. The main purpose of the DDRC-88A is to implement Dirac room correction in a multi-channel setup. I'm not sure why miniDSP made that app note specific to the DDRC-88A.
that was indeed confusing, because mentions MSO when talking about the DDRC-88BM bass management plugin, and that made me doubt regarding the other miniDSP's. Anyway good news!
Having 6 subs soon, will it be possible with a 2x4 and a 2x4HD? I would split the RCA cable towards the 2 miniDSP's. Or is it necessary to buy a 2x8?
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post #2672 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 07:35 AM
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Having 6 subs soon, will it be possible with a 2x4 and a 2x4HD? I would split the RCA cable towards the 2 miniDSP's. Or is it necessary to buy a 2x8?
That should work, provided your non-HD 2x4 has enough output voltage to drive your amps to full power and enough delay range. Some people are using MSO with no miniDSP at all, with Behringer iNuke DSP amps for the subs.

Edit: There aren't specific menus that allow choices of specific DSP hardware. Instead, you work with gain, delay and PEQ blocks, and set the parameter limits of the blocks to correspond to your hardware capability (such as 7.5 msec max delay for the non-HD 2x4).

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post #2673 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 07:58 AM
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From what I've read, when implementing MSO you only need to DSP the signals for the subs and the analog outputs from my preamp can go straight to the power amps that drive my main speakers. Is that correct?
Two-channel can be somewhat confusing in this regard. It might happen that for best integration of main speakers and subs that the main speakers may need to be delayed more than some of the subs. This of course can't be accomplished by running the two-channel outputs of the preamp straight into the power amp. One could envision this happening if the main speakers were a few feet out in the room for best imaging, with the subs behind them against the wall.
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post #2674 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 08:22 AM
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Two-channel can be somewhat confusing in this regard. It might happen that for best integration of main speakers and subs that the main speakers may need to be delayed more than some of the subs. This of course can't be accomplished by running the two-channel outputs of the preamp straight into the power amp. One could envision this happening if the main speakers were a few feet out in the room for best imaging, with the subs behind them against the wall.
Understood, thanks. If at all possible I'd like to avoid DSPing the mains, so that would be down to where I put the subs. I'm currently reading Toole's book so I'll get to the chapter on sub positioning in due course.
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post #2675 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Some very helpful replies re multi subs, thanks guys.

So now I'm wondering, would a pair of Gem2s + properly set up multi subs get close to the sound quality of the Salon 2s? I'm essentially asking if the treble and mid range and upper bass of the Gem 2s is on a par with the Salons. Opinions invited from anyone who is familiar with both speakers
The Salon2, Studio2 and Gem2 all have extremely similar sonic signatures. The difference is going to be how much bass they will have and how loud they will play, in descending order.

The whole Revel design philosophy is that a flat and accurate speaker is a flat and accurate speaker. This is why you can even mix and match from across the various Revel lines - Ultima2, Performa3, and Concerta2.

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post #2676 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Understood, thanks. If at all possible I'd like to avoid DSPing the mains, so that would be down to where I put the subs. I'm currently reading Toole's book so I'll get to the chapter on sub positioning in due course.
So glad you are reading the textbook on all this!

EQing up to around 250 hz, even 500 hz, is usually a good idea (wherever the transition frequency is for your room). You usually don't want to go above that for two channel listening.

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post #2677 of 3420 Old 11-07-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
The Salon2, Studio2 and Gem2 all have extremely similar sonic signatures. The difference is going to be how much bass they will have and how loud they will play, in descending order.

The whole Revel design philosophy is that a flat and accurate speaker is a flat and accurate speaker. This is why you can even mix and match from across the various Revel lines - Ultima2, Performa3, and Concerta2.
Thanks John. That's food for thought given that I'm more and more attracted to the multi sub approach, irrespective of how low my mains will go. I think I'm going to make some Rythmik Direct Servo subs.
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post #2678 of 3420 Old 11-09-2017, 03:58 AM
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^ One thing to keep in mind with the Gem2's is that unless you're going to wall mount them, you need to buy the Revel stands as they aren't freestanding and won't work on other stands. So factor the cost of the stands into your cost considerations. IIRC, the cost of Gem2's plus stands isn't much less than a pair of Studio2's and the footprint of the Gem2 stands is similar to the footprint of Studio2's or Salon2's. If you buy used Gem2's, make sure all the wall mounting parts are included; those parts may be available from Revel, but are definitely needed to mount the speakers either to walls or the stands.

One other thing: hooking speaker wires up to the Gem2's is a bit of an adventure because you can't do it while they're mounted to the wall or stands. The best option is to recruit a helper to hold the speaker while you connect the wires. Other options that don't include a helper are far less fun.
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post #2679 of 3420 Old 11-09-2017, 12:46 PM
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^ One thing to keep in mind with the Gem2's is that unless you're going to wall mount them, you need to buy the Revel stands as they aren't freestanding and won't work on other stands. So factor the cost of the stands into your cost considerations. IIRC, the cost of Gem2's plus stands isn't much less than a pair of Studio2's and the footprint of the Gem2 stands is similar to the footprint of Studio2's or Salon2's. If you buy used Gem2's, make sure all the wall mounting parts are included; those parts may be available from Revel, but are definitely needed to mount the speakers either to walls or the stands.

One other thing: hooking speaker wires up to the Gem2's is a bit of an adventure because you can't do it while they're mounted to the wall or stands. The best option is to recruit a helper to hold the speaker while you connect the wires. Other options that don't include a helper are far less fun.
Thanks for that, well worth knowing !
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post #2680 of 3420 Old 11-10-2017, 07:54 AM
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FWIWFM I was planning on Gem2's for surrounds and rears but went with F206's instead. Similar, probably a bit smaller, footprint, similar sound, much cheaper, equivalent sonic bliss at the end of the day.
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post #2681 of 3420 Old 11-10-2017, 08:24 AM
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FWIWFM I was planning on Gem2's for surrounds and rears but went with F206's instead. Similar, probably a bit smaller, footprint, similar sound, much cheaper, equivalent sonic bliss at the end of the day.
Yes I've thought about the F208. Probably a good deal to be had once the F228 becomes available . . .
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post #2682 of 3420 Old 11-10-2017, 08:55 AM
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FWIWFM I was planning on Gem2's for surrounds and rears but went with F206's instead. Similar, probably a bit smaller, footprint, similar sound, much cheaper, equivalent sonic bliss at the end of the day.
I have said in other Revel related threads I think the Performa3 series offers exceptional value and sound quality. Ultima2 series is for audio professionals or folks who want the absolute best and are willing to pay the premium.

If you do serious listening for extended periods of time (like mixing and mastering engineers), you want the best. If you are more of a casual listener but want great audio quality, the Performa3 series is as good as it gets IMO.

F206's would make great surround speakers. Wish I had the right room for that setup.
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post #2683 of 3420 Old 11-13-2017, 03:03 PM
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Hi All, Just wondering if the JBL 708P monitors would be suitable for a dedicated 'man cave' application, with 'critical' music listening being the primary goal?

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post #2684 of 3420 Old 11-13-2017, 03:48 PM
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^^^

Wait for it...

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post #2685 of 3420 Old 11-13-2017, 04:06 PM
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Hi All, Just wondering if the JBL 708P monitors would be suitable for a dedicated 'man cave' application, with 'critical' music listening being the primary goal?
Most likely. Can you share your rooms size, preferred listening levels, seating distance and other equipment such as sub(s) so others can give you a more informed opinion?

While I haven’t heard the powered models I have heard the 708i’s and own similar SCL series speakers and have been impressed with their capabilities for movies and music.
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post #2686 of 3420 Old 11-13-2017, 05:38 PM
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Most likely. Can you share your rooms size, preferred listening levels, seating distance and other equipment such as sub(s) so others can give you a more informed opinion?

While I haven’t heard the powered models I have heard the 708i’s and own similar SCL series speakers and have been impressed with their capabilities for movies and music.
Hi, room size is small-ish, 4 x 4.5 meters (about 13 x 15 feet). Preferred listening levels vary, but I do like to go 'chest-thumping' loud. My subs are dual SVS PB-2000's as per my signature.

I'd also consider the 708i's, as I'm unlikely to need any of the DSP, I just like the idea of active amplification for accurate impedance matching...

cheers

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post #2687 of 3420 Old 11-13-2017, 07:28 PM
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Hi, room size is small-ish, 4 x 4.5 meters (about 13 x 15 feet). Preferred listening levels vary, but I do like to go 'chest-thumping' loud. My subs are dual SVS PB-2000's as per my signature.

I'd also consider the 708i's, as I'm unlikely to need any of the DSP, I just like the idea of active amplification for accurate impedance matching...

cheers
@COACH2369 converted from the JBL 4722s to the 708P a couple of months ago and he seems very happy with them. I also think John used the 708I at one point in his room. Hopefully either or both will also chime in.
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post #2688 of 3420 Old 11-14-2017, 09:40 PM
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I have said in other Revel related threads I think the Performa3 series offers exceptional value and sound quality. Ultima2 series is for audio professionals or folks who want the absolute best and are willing to pay the premium.

If you do serious listening for extended periods of time (like mixing and mastering engineers), you want the best. If you are more of a casual listener but want great audio quality, the Performa3 series is as good as it gets IMO.

F206's would make great surround speakers. Wish I had the right room for that setup.
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post #2689 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 12:57 PM
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@COACH2369 converted from the JBL 4722s to the 708P a couple of months ago and he seems very happy with them. I also think John used the 708I at one point in his room. Hopefully either or both will also chime in.
I am EXTREMELY pleased with how well these do in my room. My room is used 100% for HT, but I am starting to notice how great the soundtracks of movies are sounding. Just today, I watched "Atomic Blonde" and the music was fantastic in this one. I found myself letting the credits run due to how much I was enjoying the final song.

My room is around 18 x 16 and I am about 9.5 feet back from the speakers... Very glad I made the change and I am back to enjoying movies again.

I feel like these(708p) are a hidden gem for a LCR speaker. Especially if one doesn't have the space for the bigger 4722's.. Both are excellent speakers for HT but each fit a different scenario, if that makes sense.
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I am EXTREMELY pleased with how well these do in my room. My room is used 100% for HT, but I am starting to notice how great the soundtracks of movies are sounding. Just today, I watched "Atomic Blonde" and the music was fantastic in this one. I found myself letting the credits run due to how much I was enjoying the final song.

My room is around 18 x 16 and I am about 9.5 feet back from the speakers... Very glad I made the change and I am back to enjoying movies again.

I feel like these(708p) are a hidden gem for a LCR speaker. Especially if one doesn't have the space for the bigger 4722's.. Both are excellent speakers for HT but each fit a different scenario, if that makes sense.
Out of curiosity, how would you describe the audible differences between the 4722 and 708's?

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post #2691 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:00 PM
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I’ve got my new mains in my home theater set up and to no ones surprise, the SCL-2s do sound good.

I have 4” studs and a total of 5” of depth in my walls so I ended up doing a frame with a tapered edge and a custom box to get them to fit into my stud bay (they are narrower than a standard bay with 16” on-center studs). The frame is painted to match the wall and is just a 1”x2” and 3/4” quarter round. Pretty easy to put together.

The trickier part for me was rerouting some electrical and plumbing in the garage all that wasn’t an issue with the SCL-4s. This required a fair amount of “open-wall surgery,” and then new drywall, texture and paint.

All-in-all it took me about a week of evenings to get them in. If not for the plumbing & electrical (and me being super slow as I await my shoulder reconstruction surgery), this would have been a one day job.

The SCL-2s play great with my SCL-4s. They provide a bigger soundstage and more dynamics, helping to “fill” the space between the mains and surrounds better, almost as if I had wides. That said, they sound very similar to the SCL-4s, just more capable.

I’m using an ATI AT542NC to power the SCL-2s and Emotiva XPA Gen 3 for the SCL-4s if anyone is curious. The ATI is awesome with these. Silent and super powerful.

Thanks @John Schuermann for getting me these so fast and looking forward to see how your theater turns out. Whenever you stop being such a slacker that is. 😉
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post #2692 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:33 PM
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@Snowmanick -- any pics of this frame? I believe I'll have to do similar for my SCL-3s I'm using as surrounds/rears, along with my M2 fronts, and would welcome any ideas / hints for build-out.

Until I can mount them in-wall, though, I'll be putting them on speaker stands, so...I guess I have time.
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post #2693 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:36 PM
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I don’t have a photo hosting site anymore. I sent a pic to John who can post it if he wants or if you PM me an email I can shoot one to you.

Like I said I just used 1”x2” and 3/4” quarter round. I used a miter box to cut the wood at 45 degree angles and put it together with a staple gun and liquid nails. Once the liquid nails cured I filled with wood filler and sanded smooth, then primed and painted. Pretty easy.

That said, I’m a lawyer who also studied economics and business, my carpentry skills aren’t nearly what a lot of people on this site show off. So please be gentle. 😐

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post #2694 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Pretty much everyone who has followed this thread from the beginning knows I am a fan of the LSR708i We've done lots of listening tests here, between the 708s, M2s, Revel F208s, Revel Salon2s, Revel Concerta2s, etc.

My thoughts overall: Revels are silkier and smoother sounding, the JBLs have greater dynamics but can sound a bit "harsh" with music to some people. Both have an amazingly similar tonal balance. For orchestra and most music, I really really like my Revel Salon2s.

So much I could say but I'd write a novel, lol.

I used the 708is as LCRs for about a year and blew away many people during demos. Eventually I moved the 708is to surround positions and put M2s in the front for LCR. After our Salon2 vs. M2 shootout, I put the Salon2s up front with a Voice2 as center.

Now I will be installing SCL2s as LCRs behind the screen and will keep the Salon2s and Voice2 out in the room. Now I can demo the JBL sound AND the Revel sound

So @GeekWave , for that size room, I think you would do just fine with the 708Ps. You might also consider the Revel F206 or Revel M106 at similar price points.
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post #2695 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Iv got my new mains in my home theater set up and to no ones surprise, the SCL-2s do sound good.

I have 4” studs and a total of 5” of depth in my walls so I ended up doing a frame with a tapered edge and a custom box to get them to fit into my stud bay (they are narrower than a standard bay with 16” on-center studs). The frame is painted to match the wall and is just a 1”x2” and 3/4” quarter round. Pretty easy to put together.

The trickier part for me was rerouting some electrical and plumbing in the garage all that wasn’t an issue with the SCL-4s. This required a fair amount of “open-wall surgery,” and then new drywall, texture and paint.

All-in-all it took me about a week of evenings to get them in. If not for the plumbing & electrical (and me being super slow as I await my shoulder reconstruction surgery), this would have been a one day job.

The SCL-2s play great with my SCL-4s. They provide a bigger soundstage and more dynamics, helping to “fill” the space between the mains and surrounds better, almost as if I had wides. That said, they sound very similar to the SCL-4s, just more capable.

I’m using an ATI AT542NC to power the SCL-2s and Emotiva XPA Gen 3 for the SCL-4s if anyone is curious. The ATI is awesome with these. Silent and super powerful.

Thanks @John Schuermann for getting me these so fast and looking forward to see how your theater turns out. Whenever you stop being such a slacker that is. 😉
Yes, I AM a slacker!



Just waiting for my Stewart Microperf to get here - just swapping out the material with the frame / masking system I already have.
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post #2696 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I don’t have a photo hosting site anymore. I sent a pic to John who can post it if he wants or if you PM me an email I can shoot one to you.

Lik I said I just used 1”x2” and 3/4” quarter round. I used a miter box to cut the wood at 45 degree angles and put it together with a staple gun and liquid nails. Once the liquid nails cured I filled with wood filler and sanded smooth, then primed and painted. Pretty easy.
Here's the pic:

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post #2697 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 03:49 PM
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Here's the pic:

Thanks John.
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post #2698 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Another pic - from Nick!

He asks me to remind you that he is a lawyer, NOT a carpenter:


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post #2699 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 04:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Speaking of the SCL2, here is some cool info about it - this comes from Chris in Harman engineering - finally got permission to post this (it's from an email conversation discussing my options about installing them in our demo theater):

The SCL-2 is a serious +/-2 or 2.5 dB speaker that seems to be happy just mounted in its backbox and stand-mounted as well as it is in the wall. And 51 watts takes her to about 107 dB. CEA tone burst measurement gives a broadband peak at 117 dB.

I have to get to the back of our 23 ft deep soundroom when I play the one with an SDA-7200’s single channel…………yeah, kinda like lighting a stick of dynamite and running away. And the SCL-2 handles 445W with full-range signal (bypassed at 80 Hz TBD soon).

Bottom line is that you’re in for a treat.

From my demos that the SCL-2 can play extremely loud (and, of course, the CEA2034 test backs that up)

Having all that headroom DOES sound good, especially with a good-sounding speaker like the SCL-2. When you get your hand on the volume control, you’ll be shocked to hear how loud they can play. In the most recent Academy, I had to pull off one of the wall absorbers to prove that it was only one SCL-2. The guy who asked me about it just started laughing (silently because the SCL-2 was so loud).

And so unusual that they can play so loud, but sound good while doing it.


My SCL2s are just sitting here right now until I can get my front wall re-framed (I'm putting them behind an acoustically transparent screen and need to reframe the wall to a 6" depth).

Going crazy waiting to get these things installed!

We did test them out by setting them on a pair of cinder blocks out in the room, about 2 ft. from the back wall. They certainly had that M2 / 7 series signature sound, but again with the kind of spaciousness we heard with the SCL3 and 4. Did the Open Range and Unbroken tests and the dynamics were shocking. Same was true of some of the music tracks we played through them - Pink Floyd's "The Wall" sounded particularly dynamic.

We only had them up a short time - just waiting on my new screen!

Snowmanick likes this.

John Schuermann
The Screening Room Home Theater Sales and Design
JS Music and Sound Film Scoring and Sound Design

Last edited by John Schuermann; 11-15-2017 at 05:18 PM.
John Schuermann is offline  
post #2700 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Another pic - from Nick!

He asks me to remind you that he is a lawyer, NOT a carpenter:

Looks great for a lawyer (or a carpenter).

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