Official JBL Synthesis / Pro / Revel Home Theater Thread - Page 91 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2701 of 3420 Old 11-15-2017, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Pretty much everyone who has followed this thread from the beginning knows I am a fan of the LSR708i We've done lots of listening tests here, between the 708s, M2s, Revel F208s, Revel Salon2s, Revel Concerta2s, etc.

My thoughts overall: Revels are silkier and smoother sounding, the JBLs have greater dynamics but can sound a bit "harsh" with music to some people. Both have an amazingly similar tonal balance. For orchestra and most music, I really really like my Revel Salon2s.

So much I could say but I'd write a novel, lol.

I used the 708is as LCRs for about a year and blew away many people during demos. Eventually I moved the 708is to surround positions and put M2s in the front for LCR. After our Salon2 vs. M2 shootout, I put the Salon2s up front with a Voice2 as center.

Now I will be installing SCL2s as LCRs behind the screen and will keep the Salon2s and Voice2 out in the room. Now I can demo the JBL sound AND the Revel sound

So @GeekWave , for that size room, I think you would do just fine with the 708Ps. You might also consider the Revel F206 or Revel M106 at similar price points.
Hello John,
I'm still tripping over this "harsh" description, the people who find it "a bit harsh" with music, is it due to poor recordings, do they also notice harshness on good recordings? I know you really like the Revels for music, regarding the F208/F228BE and the 708P would you still prefer the Revels over the 708P if you used them 95% for movies?

Is there a Maximum Continuous SPL at 1 meter specification for the Revels as there is for the 708P(108dB)?

Curious how you picked the Stewart Micro-Perf over the other screens you were testing, I too have an ST130 Micro-Perf and love it.
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post #2702 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Speaking of the SCL2, here is some cool info about it
John, can I ask a couple of question about the SCL-2?

1. I assume the the drivers above and below the D2 are playing the same frequencies (i.e. in an MTM style configuration), and the lowest driver is just getting lower frequencies with a lower cross-over than the other two (hence the 2 1/2 way design mentioned in the specs). Does this mean that the speaker can be mounted upside down - i.e. with two of the 8" drivers at the top - without any change in performance?

I've only skim read the manual, and I see it does suggest inverted mounting if the centre is length-ways below the screen - but just wondered if you could ask your engineering contact if there is any audible or measurable difference from an inverted mounting?

I'm hoping not, as this would would suit my own behind screen placement much better, putting the D2 much closer to seated ear level, whilst also having none of the driver obscured by the lower bar of the screen frame.

2. I've lost track a little, do you still have the M2's? If so, is there any audible difference in performance between them and the SCL-2? i.e. do you think you could identify any difference blind?

3. You mention your engineer contact said that the SCL2:
Quote:
. . . seems to be happy just mounted in its backbox and stand-mounted as well as it is in the wall. . .
. Do JBL feel then that this would be a valid alternative installation method then, without any significant detriment to performance? (to be honest I thought my SCL-4's sounded better in free space on a stand than they did once properly mounted on the wall - though that could have just been down to room position also).

EDIT: I had mistakenly thought thay shared the identical D2 driver, but I've just noticed that the M2 and SCL-2 appear to use different D2 drivers:

M2 - D2430K 3inch Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver - crossover @ 800Hz
SCL-2 - D2415K, 1.5inch Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver - crossover @ 1.3Khz

I guess that might lead to them not sounding identical.

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post #2703 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post
Hello John,
I'm still tripping over this "harsh" description, the people who find it "a bit harsh" with music, is it due to poor recordings, do they also notice harshness on good recordings?
I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure it indeed has a lot to do with the recordings. Lots of rock and metal can sound harsh, while a lot of other music may not.

I've had the 705Ps for a while now, and I feel no need to reduce their highs. Contrary, I find myself having less problems turning them up because they sound so good either way compared most other speakers I've heard.

I just need to constrain myself a bit so I don't listen too loud. Rarely a problem, given the lack of sound-isolation where I use them, though.

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post #2704 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 06:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brad/Viper-Fan View Post
Hello John,
I'm still tripping over this "harsh" description, the people who find it "a bit harsh" with music, is it due to poor recordings, do they also notice harshness on good recordings? I know you really like the Revels for music, regarding the F208/F228BE and the 708P would you still prefer the Revels over the 708P if you used them 95% for movies?

Is there a Maximum Continuous SPL at 1 meter specification for the Revels as there is for the 708P(108dB)?

Curious how you picked the Stewart Micro-Perf over the other screens you were testing, I too have an ST130 Micro-Perf and love it.


Just keep in mind that I'm comparing to the silkiness of the Salon2 (and F208, to a degree), and particularly with violins and string sections. I listen to a lot of orchestral music, and the strings sound more natural to me on the Revels. That's pretty much regardless of recording.

However, with close mic'd brass instruments the 708s / M2s / SCLs really excel - it's like the horn player is right in the room with you.

Based on our discussions at CEDIA after listening to the Synthesis demo, I don't think this is something that should worry you

When I'm watching a movie I'm probably not like most people - I'm listening intensely to the music. Most others let the music wash over them and pay more attention to the crash / bang of the sound effects. It is true that the SCL2s I've been playing with lately have more impact with intense sound effects than the Salon2s out in the room. With this new system, I can switch back and forth at will depending on my mood
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post #2705 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
John, can I ask a couple of question about the SCL-2?

1. I assume the the drivers above and below the D2 are playing the same frequencies (i.e. in an MTM style configuration), and the lowest driver is just getting lower frequencies with a lower cross-over than the other two (hence the 2 1/2 way design mentioned in the specs). Does this mean that the speaker can be mounted upside down - i.e. with two of the 8" drivers at the top - without any change in performance?

I've only skim read the manual, and I see it does suggest inverted mounting if the centre is length-ways below the screen - but just wondered if you could ask your engineering contact if there is any audible or measurable difference from an inverted mounting?

I'm hoping not, as this would would suit my own behind screen placement much better, putting the D2 much closer to seated ear level, whilst also having none of the driver obscured by the lower bar of the screen frame.

2. I've lost track a little, do you still have the M2's? If so, is there any audible difference in performance between them and the SCL-2? i.e. do you think you could identify any difference blind?

3. You mention your engineer contact said that the SCL2: . Do JBL feel then that this would be a valid alternative installation method then, without any significant detriment to performance? (to be honest I thought my SCL-4's sounded better in free space on a stand than they did once properly mounted on the wall - though that could have just been down to room position also).

EDIT: I had mistakenly thought thay shared the identical D2 driver, but I've just noticed that the M2 and SCL-2 appear to use different D2 drivers:

M2 - D2430K 3inch Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver - crossover @ 800Hz
SCL-2 - D2415K, 1.5inch Dual Diaphragm Dual Voice Coil Compression Driver - crossover @ 1.3Khz

I guess that might lead to them not sounding identical.
Yes, the speaker doesn't care whether you mount it "upside down" or "rightside up." The goal is simply to get the tweeter at ear level. Here is a response I got about this:

The SCL-2 radiation pattern is symmetrical in the vertical plane, so yes they can be inverted. Just get the compression driver closer to the most common ear height.

I don't have the M2s anymore, so all I can say is that they sound very similar to my memory of the M2s. Certainly they have the same "signature" but - from memory - the SCL2s seem to have a bit more air and spaciousness on the top end. I think that might be a giveaway, blind.

JBL is not recommending them for in-room use, but my understanding is that they measure really well out in the room as well as mounted in a wall. So far, my only listening has been out in the room, and they sounded pretty darn good to me.

I thought the SCL3s and SCL4s we've installed sounded better in-wall than in room, especially in the midrange / upper bass. But they were in wildly different rooms...

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post #2706 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 08:20 PM
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However, with close mic'd brass instruments the 708s / M2s / SCLs really excel - it's like the horn player is right in the room with you.

Well, in my case...
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post #2707 of 3420 Old 11-16-2017, 08:55 PM
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Thanks @John Schuermann and @COACH2369 for your feedback, much appreciated. I have requested some demo units from our JBL pro distributor... so will let you know my thoughts (for what they're worth). Unfortunately I don't have or know how to access to Harmon consumer products (eg Revel) here in NZ... I'll do some asking around.

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post #2708 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 02:23 AM
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Talking about speaker comparisons, I can't see any involving the new 4367 that -if I'm not mistaken- carries the same drivers as flagship M2.
John Schuermann is lucky to own both SCL-2 and Salon speakers in order to choose one or other depending his tastes (film or music), but would we considering the 4367 as "best of two worlds" (one for all speaker), like a mix between M2/ SCL-2 and the Salons?

Thanks
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post #2709 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GeekWave View Post
I have requested some demo units from our JBL pro distributor... so will let you know my thoughts (for what they're worth).
It will be interesting to see your thoughts on the 708P in comparison to the 590.
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post #2710 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 09:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Talking about speaker comparisons, I can't see any involving the new 4367 that -if I'm not mistaken- carries the same drivers as flagship M2.
John Schuermann is lucky to own both SCL-2 and Salon speakers in order to choose one or other depending his tastes (film or music), but would we considering the 4367 as "best of two worlds" (one for all speaker), like a mix between M2/ SCL-2 and the Salons?

Thanks
The 4367 sounds a lot like the M2, only with more limited vertical dispersion.

I wouldn't go so far to say that the Salon2s are good for music and the M2s good for movies. Both are good for both (if that makes any sense). I for the most part prefer the Salon2s for orchestral music, and there is a lot of orchestral music in movies

And the M2s / 4367s really shine with percussion and close mic'd music.

One of my worries was that the Salon2 / M2 speaker shootout would cause people to come to hard and fast conclusions about either speaker. Both sound great with movies and music, the Salon2s "sweeter" but the M2s more dynamic.

You are good either way, IMO

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post #2711 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by OsoSolitario View Post
Talking about speaker comparisons, I can't see any involving the new 4367 that -if I'm not mistaken- carries the same drivers as flagship M2.
John Schuermann is lucky to own both SCL-2 and Salon speakers in order to choose one or other depending his tastes (film or music), but would we considering the 4367 as "best of two worlds" (one for all speaker), like a mix between M2/ SCL-2 and the Salons?

Thanks
Having heard the m2's twice, and owning the 4367's, I have to say I am at a loss for an explanation as to why they aren't considered more often, and rarely get pursed into the discussions. I'm pretty stinkin happy to say the least.

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post #2712 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Having heard the m2's twice, and owning the 4367's, I have to say I am at a loss for an explanation as to why they aren't considered more often, and rarely get pursed into the discussions. I'm pretty stinkin happy to say the least.
I totally agree! And you don't have to go through all the hassle of the amps. processing, etc.

The only problem with the 4367 is that you need to raise it about 6" off the floor.
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post #2713 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 04:26 PM
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I totally agree! And you don't have to go through all the hassle of the amps. processing, etc.

The only problem with the 4367 is that you need to raise it about 6" off the floor.
Pretty easy to do that, I had stands built and stained in one evening to accommodate! However, raising them even a little more than that, at least in my room, 10" was a bit better measuring. I don't like the middle of the horn too far above ear height, so 6-8" is really optimal for a regular seated position. I may end up raising them all more to help with overall response across the front (MLP) and rear rows to meet in the middle at 10-12" platform.

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post #2714 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 05:57 PM
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Having heard the m2's twice, and owning the 4367's, I have to say I am at a loss for an explanation as to why they aren't considered more often, and rarely get pursed into the discussions. I'm pretty stinkin happy to say the least.
The 4367's sound great! I first heard them with John at Dallas Cedia and again at San Diego Cedia (JBL Theater Demo) if I had a bigger room I'd have them now! This is why I'm looking at the 708P, thinking it might be a miniature 4367 to better fit my room, but I haven't heard them. Anyone who is able to go to CEDIA, do not miss the JBL Synthesis Demo it is clearly best of show!
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post #2715 of 3420 Old 11-17-2017, 06:07 PM
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I totally agree! And you don't have to go through all the hassle of the amps. processing, etc.

The only problem with the 4367 is that you need to raise it about 6" off the floor.
Just want to add, if somebody that is considering the M2's is deterred by the "hassle" of the amps and processing etc, don't be. It's actually quite simple and anybody that's into this hobby enough to be willing to drop that kind of coin on a set of speakers will likely know enough about audio gear to breeze through the set up easily. That and once everything is set up, that's it. Just enjoy
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post #2716 of 3420 Old 11-18-2017, 09:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Just want to add, if somebody that is considering the M2's is deterred by the "hassle" of the amps and processing etc, don't be. It's actually quite simple and anybody that's into this hobby enough to be willing to drop that kind of coin on a set of speakers will likely know enough about audio gear to breeze through the set up easily. That and once everything is set up, that's it. Just enjoy
I would agree with you for the type of person who posts in this thread, but for the average or even somewhat a/v savvy Joe they can be a bit of a challenge. There have been numerous occasions where I've spent almost an entire day on the phone helping people walk through M2 / 708 setup. One needs to have at least a passing familiarity with networking, understand how to run the Audio Architect software (which looks more like pro audio mixing software than anything a home theater enthusiast is familiar with), and understand the underlying concepts about why all this needs to be done in the first place.

So, I would agree with you regarding the high level folks who post here, but the lurkers (those who read but don't post) are a whole different story. Those are the ones who usually reach out, and they often find this stuff challenging.

That said, the primary objection I run into from a sales perspective is the noise of the amps. I would say about 80% of the time that's a deal killer, as most people want the amps displayed in the room. My amps are in my adjoining office / mix studio, so not really a problem for me (unless I wanted to mix a movie and watch a movie at the same time, lol). With the 4367s all these challenges disappear.

None of this should be construed as me trying to talk people out of M2s, though

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post #2717 of 3420 Old 11-18-2017, 10:20 AM
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And there is the option of using the BSS Soundweb London processor and any (quiet) amps you want.
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post #2718 of 3420 Old 11-18-2017, 10:59 AM - Thread Starter
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While we are at it, let's not forget you can also just load the tunings into the SDP75 and use whatever amps you want, too (assuming they have enough power!)

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post #2719 of 3420 Old 11-18-2017, 12:54 PM
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While we are at it, let's not forget you can also just load the tunings into the SDP75 and use whatever amps you want, too (assuming they have enough power!)

Well not yet...maybe soon though...but we have not heard for sure on that front and until the functionality is delivered you should probably caveat the statement.


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post #2720 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 11:17 AM
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I can't believe I'm going to ask but here it goes. Long story short, the M2's in my formal family room don't work at all, aside from aesthetics the room just isn't set up for what I'm trying to accomplish. So, I'm entertaining a very modest HT in the basement and I don't have any clear direction yet. Lots of possibilities but the main two choices are try and use the 2 M2's that I have for L&R and build around that or sell the M2's and start over. It has to be on the cheap so buying a 3rd M2 isn't an option. If I sell and start all over I see myself doing JTR due to output and $.

Doubt I can do a full atoms setup again. I'm thinking more of a 5.1 setup, or even phantom center for a while, drop the sub and start with 2 M2's for L&R and then incorporate side/rear speakers.

Any thoughts? I know, this is insane. I can't keep track of all the different speakers and setups I've had over the years.
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post #2721 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 11:55 AM
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I can't believe I'm going to ask but here it goes. Long story short, the M2's in my formal family room don't work at all, aside from aesthetics the room just isn't set up for what I'm trying to accomplish. So, I'm entertaining a very modest HT in the basement and I don't have any clear direction yet. Lots of possibilities but the main two choices are try and use the 2 M2's that I have for L&R and build around that or sell the M2's and start over. It has to be on the cheap so buying a 3rd M2 isn't an option. If I sell and start all over I see myself doing JTR due to output and $.

Doubt I can do a full atmos setup again. I'm thinking more of a 5.1 setup, or even phantom center for a while, drop the sub and start with 2 M2's for L&R and then incorporate side/rear speakers.

Any thoughts? I know, this is insane. I can't keep track of all the different speakers and setups I've had over the years.
Wow, very sorry to hear things are not working out for you. Maybe you need to enlist the help of a professional to get it right. Choosing the right size and aesthetic of your speakers is a big part of the initial design stage. It would be a shame to sell the M2's, especially if you will lose money and get lesser speakers as a result.

I think you can get by with 5.0 in a small room (I have before) especially with full range mains like the M2's. I also think you could use a JBL LSR 708 (i or P) for a center channel. Much smaller footprint, well matched with the M2's. For HT, I think a center channel is necessary. Phantom center for dialog isn't great. What are you using for power amps and crossover/processor?

You should post a drawing of your room layout with dimensions so you can get real input on what will or won't work.
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post #2722 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Wow, very sorry to hear things are not working out for you. Maybe you need to enlist the help of a professional to get it right. Choosing the right size and aesthetic of your speakers is a big part of the initial design stage. It would be a shame to sell the M2's, especially if you will lose money and get lesser speakers as a result.

I think you can get by with 5.0 in a small room (I have before) especially with full range mains like the M2's. I also think you could use a JBL LSR 708 (i or P) for a center channel. Much smaller footprint, well matched with the M2's. For HT, I think a center channel is necessary. Phantom center for dialog isn't great. What are you using for power amps and crossover/processor?

You should post a drawing of your room layout with dimensions so you can get real input on what will or won't work.
I was wondering if the 708 series would be a good compliment for the M2s. That way the M2's could stay as L&R and I could improvise the rest of the system.

I have the Crown tech 5000hd amps driving the M2s so there is plenty of power there. Marantz 7702 MK 2 for processor and Oppo BR player. 95% of the HT use will be for concert DVD's.

Here is a thread I started a few days ago searching for room layout ideas.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...-out-room.html

Last edited by SeaNile; 11-19-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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post #2723 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
I was wondering if the 708 series would be a good compliment for the M2s. That way the M2's could stay as L&R and I could improvise the rest of the system.

I have the Crown tech 5000hd amps driving the M2s so there is plenty of power there. Marantz 7702 MK 2 for processor and Oppo BR player. 95% of the HT use will be for concert DVD's.
You could use LSR 705P's for surround and have an awesome system.

Your room dimension and rectangular shape are pretty good. I think you will do well. I hope you mean concert Blu-Ray's! DVD's aren't going to look or sound very good.

Get some help doing it right the first time. There are a lot of details and you don't want to waste money having to do stuff over. Prewire for as much as you think you will ever want (at least for 2 subs), maybe 7.2 and 2-4 Atmos channels if you can.

You need a place to locate the Crown amps to keep the noise down. Maybe you can vent the closet?
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post #2724 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 04:50 PM
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I’d be looking at purchasing a center and side/rear speakers. Do I even want to know what the JBL 708 go for?


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post #2725 of 3420 Old 11-19-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post
I’d be looking at purchasing a center and side/rear speakers. Do I even want to know what the JBL 708 go for?


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If interested I’m selling a pair of SCL-4’s (upgraded my mains to SCL-2’s), which are like a pair of inwall LSR708i’s but have a true crossover so they work with any amp. I use 4 of these for surrounds and they’re fantastic.

Feel free to PM if interested.
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post #2726 of 3420 Old 11-20-2017, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nyal Mellor View Post
Well not yet...maybe soon though...but we have not heard for sure on that front and until the functionality is delivered you should probably caveat the statement.
My understanding is that the anechoic data is being loaded into each 75 prior to each specific installation.

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post #2727 of 3420 Old 11-20-2017, 08:32 AM
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My understanding is that the anechoic data is being loaded into each 75 prior to each specific installation.
Is this not to be user selectable then?
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post #2728 of 3420 Old 11-20-2017, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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@SeaNile , you might seriously take Snowmanick up on his offer - the SCL3 and 4 are designed to blend / match the M2, 4367, etc. Same is true of the 708 and 705.

Only MSRP / MAP pricing is allowed on the Forum, so here is pricing on the 708:

708i (needs anechoic data and amps): $1499 each

708P (self-powered): List $2499, MAP $1999 each

Or you could do the Revel / JBL mismash system I have going in my room They all play quite nicely together.

FWIW, the SCL4 is essentially an inwall 708 that does not require anechoic data and will work with just about any amp.

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Last edited by John Schuermann; 11-20-2017 at 08:43 AM.
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post #2729 of 3420 Old 11-20-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
@SeaNile , you might seriously take Snowmanick up on his offer - the SCL3 and 4 are designed to blend / match the M2, 4367, etc. Same is true of the 708 and 705.

Only MSRP / MAP pricing is allowed on the Forum, so here is pricing on the 708:

708i (needs anechoic data and amps): $1499 each

708P (self-powered): List $2499, MAP $1999 each

Or you could do the Revel / JBL mismash system I have going in my room They all play quite nicely together.
I doubt in wall speakers are an option. I'm going to look at screen and speaker placement options later today and see what options I can come up with.

I can't swing 708p @ $2k x a minimum of 3 speakers and maybe even 5. That's not even a possibility with my budget this time around....

Last edited by SeaNile; 11-20-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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post #2730 of 3420 Old 11-20-2017, 08:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Is this not to be user selectable then?
It will be. This is just how it's being done right now until units are fully pre-loaded. My understanding is that user drop downs are imminent.

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