Monoprice 15" Passive PA Speaker Review - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nzchurbro View Post
Having a $1000 room correction bit of kit is surely going to help any speaker sound pretty good? Would using a standard AVR's audyssey or ypao room correction give a similar result to what you have used?
Sure, it does help to have a quality room correction system, and Dirac is top-notch. I'll EQ with MCACC, ARC, Audyssey, miniDSP, and Equalizer APO and see how the speakers react to each of those. It's gonna take some time to get through all that, but I am confident the necessary EQ adjustments would be handled well by the other room correction/EQ systems.
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post #32 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 06:45 AM
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That would be a great "shoot-out" in its own right, Mark.
May as well throw the Dirac Live trial software into the mix.
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post #33 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 07:21 AM - Thread Starter
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That would be a great "shoot-out" in its own right, Mark.
May as well throw the Dirac Live trial software into the mix.
Michael
Yes! I suppose something like that could be great. Gotta do it.
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post #34 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Yes! I suppose something like that could be great. Gotta do it.
If youre going to do a test like that,may i suggest throwing a dsp active crossover in the mix.

The better systems adjust magnitude and phase for passive crossover systems but how do they compare to a speaker that has already has no phase issues because its active dsp, and has time aligned drivers?

I say that because since switching to active with linear phase filters and delaying the tweeters, i havent felt the need to do additional room correction

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post #35 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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If youre going to do a test like that,may i suggest throwing a dsp active crossover in the mix.

The better systems adjust magnitude and phase for passive crossover systems but how do they compare to a speaker that has already has no phase issues because its active, and has time aligned drivers?

I say that because since switching to active with linear phase filters and delaying the tweeters, i havent felt the need to do additional room correction
I do plan to do that as well, with my miniDSP 2x4.

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post #36 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I do plan to do that as well, with my miniDSP 2x4.
Sweet.is it an hd? The regular one iirc does not have a way to do linear phase crossovers(but it does allow you to delay the drivers)
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post #37 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 10:47 AM
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Two-way 15" PA speakers are a large bang/buck. The high crossover point, as mentioned in the Behringer thread, compromises their performance in many PA applications where a wide audience reach is important (it is, however, sometimes useful in a stage monitor application to minimize feedback interactions between multiple microphones.) I have found, though, that their limited dispersion in the upper mids is often a plus in a home application. This is likely due to the reduced irradiation of walls which tends to unclarify the sound (a viewpoint that is at odds with some popular marketing assertions).

I would posit that the crossover components may be dedicated to the HF section, with the woofer running barefoot (direct). It is possible to do this around 3 kHz if some care is paid to the design of the woofer to control (or even suppress) its higher-frequency breakup modes. This approach has the benefit of improved sensitivity and HF power handling.

My guess is that the effectiveness of correction systems to "improve" the results is somewhat overrated, and what EQ as may be useful can be accomplished with an experienced listener and the PEQ sections of some AVRs sans autocorrect.

It would be interesting to read what a third-party listener, after living with these for awhile, thinks of the Behringers when introduced to them -- the reverse experience from the reviewer's. This may be difficult as most who might be interested in these are already familiar with the Behringers.
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post #38 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 11:27 AM
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I just ordered a pair of these. If someone wants to send me a couple of 215's, I'll be happy to let you know.

Michael
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post #39 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 11:27 AM
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You'd need a BIG room.

And I don't know happy I'd be sitting underneath four of these overhead.

Michael
You right. Also my neighbors won't be happy.
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post #40 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
Two-way 15" PA speakers are a large bang/buck. The high crossover point, as mentioned in the Behringer thread, compromises their performance in many PA applications where a wide audience reach is important (it is, however, sometimes useful in a stage monitor application to minimize feedback interactions between multiple microphones.) I have found, though, that their limited dispersion in the upper mids is often a plus in a home application. This is likely due to the reduced irradiation of walls which tends to unclarify the sound (a viewpoint that is at odds with some popular marketing assertions).

I would posit that the crossover components may be dedicated to the HF section, with the woofer running barefoot (direct). It is possible to do this around 3 kHz if some care is paid to the design of the woofer to control (or even suppress) its higher-frequency breakup modes. This approach has the benefit of improved sensitivity and HF power handling.

My guess is that the effectiveness of correction systems to "improve" the results is somewhat overrated, and what EQ as may be useful can be accomplished with an experienced listener and the PEQ sections of some AVRs sans autocorrect.

It would be interesting to read what a third-party listener, after living with these for awhile, thinks of the Behringers when introduced to them -- the reverse experience from the reviewer's. This may be difficult as most who might be interested in these are already familiar with the Behringers.

Absolutely, 100%. My suggestion for using auto room correction/EQ is really for people not equipped to do it properly i.e. dial-in PEQ manually (although Dirac Live does produce results that measure great in REW).

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post #41 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post
My guess is that the effectiveness of correction systems to "improve" the results is somewhat overrated, and what EQ as may be useful can be accomplished with an experienced listener and the PEQ sections of some AVRs sans autocorrect.
And the percentage of such people and AVRs outside of this (and similar) forums (fori?) is how many tenths of a percent?
Hence, auto-eq.
Michael

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post #42 of 397 Old 08-22-2016, 11:43 PM
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So if Im reading this right these speakers would be a worthy upgrade from my Infinity P363s for movies & music? Could I run them directly into my Yamaha RX A840? Forgive me for the ignorant question. I just always assumed these would be best suited for live performances or DJing.


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post #43 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 04:39 AM - Thread Starter
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So if Im reading this right these speakers would be a worthy upgrade from my Infinity P363s for movies & music? Could I run them directly into my Yamaha RX A840? Forgive me for the ignorant question. I just always assumed these would be best suited for live performances or DJing.
One area I have slacked is in checking out those speakers, which are surely ranked among the top bargain 3-way towers you can buy. So, I don't really know what the differences might be, there surely are some. 6 dB greater sensitivity (assuming accurate specs for both speakers) should make the Monoprice a lot easier to drive while the Infinitys don't require EQ, have deeper bass as well as higher treble response, and probably exhibit better driver integration when it comes to matching the dispersion patterns.

What the Infinitys will not do is play as loud and clear and with the same dynamic impact as the Monoprice. 6 dB is equal to 4X the wattage, so let's say your AVR puts out 50 watts per channel with all channels driven and is running the Monoprice speakers... you'd need 200 watts/channel to get to the same place with the Infinitys, and you'd be pushing those speakers to their absolute limit while the Monoprice would be taking it easy. In other words, the more you turn it up the greater an advantage the Monoprice speakers are likely to have over a low-cost but well-engineered 3-way tower with dual 6.5" woofers.

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post #44 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
One area I have slacked is in checking out those speakers, which are surely ranked among the top bargain 3-way towers you can buy. So, I don't really know what the differences might be, there surely are some. 6 dB greater sensitivity (assuming accurate specs for both speakers) should make the Monoprice a lot easier to drive while the Infinitys don't require EQ, have deeper bass as well as higher treble response, and probably exhibit better driver integration when it comes to matching the dispersion patterns.

What the Infinitys will not do is play as loud and clear and with the same dynamic impact as the Monoprice. 6 dB is equal to 4X the wattage, so let's say your AVR puts out 50 watts per channel with all channels driven and is running the Monoprice speakers... you'd need 200 watts/channel to get to the same place with the Infinitys, and you'd be pushing those speakers to their absolute limit while the Monoprice would be taking it easy. In other words, the more you turn it up the greater an advantage the Monoprice speakers are likely to have over a low-cost but well-engineered 3-way tower with dual 6.5" woofers.
The Infinitiy's are also 4Ohm speakers, and will be harder to drive than the 8Ohm Monoprice speakers...
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post #45 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 02:11 PM
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And the percentage of such people and AVRs outside of this (and similar) forums (fori?) is how many tenths of a percent?
Hence, auto-eq.
Michael
That's hard to tell. There are more novices on AVS these days than ever. And one of the issues of "automatic" EQ systems is that they rob the user of acquiring familiarity with what the "frequency" in "frequency response" actually represents.

To the extent that AVS is an enthusiast forum (vs. a consumer forum), my guess is that the enthusiasts have little trouble either using or learning to use manual EQ (or even PEQ) effectively. I would expect most of the DIY guys would have little trouble, but they are not likely to show interest in such a consumer-oriented turnkey value product like this. A couple hours with Harman's excellent frequency-identification exercises can do wonders for that skill.

For those who have autocorrection systems and are insistent upon using them, I would recommend limiting their use to outdoor (anechoic) equalization of a fresh unit as a baseline, and then adjust the manual EQ controls to taste -- much like a chef uses salt and pepper on a prime steak.

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Looking at this photo of the crossover board it appears there isn't even a low pass filter for the woofer, rather everything there is just the high pass filter on the compression driver. You can even see where the board has a spot designated for the woofer low pass inductor which is absent and bypassed with a little jumper wire.

This means they just run the woofer full range and cross the compression driver over to it where the woofer begins to naturally roll off.
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post #47 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 05:24 PM
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Looking at this photo of the crossover board it appears there isn't even a low pass filter for the woofer, rather everything there is just the high pass filter on the compression driver. You can even see where the board has a spot designated for the woofer low pass inductor which is absent and bypassed with a little jumper wire.

This means they just run the woofer full range and cross the compression driver over to it where the woofer begins to naturally roll off.
Do you see a problem with that if it is the case? Just curious from a theoretical point of view.
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post #48 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 05:53 PM
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This means they just run the woofer full range and cross the compression driver over to it where the woofer begins to naturally roll off.
I'm ready for your modified xo whenever it's ready.

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post #49 of 397 Old 08-23-2016, 08:43 PM
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Do you see a problem with that if it is the case? Just curious from a theoretical point of view.
It's often not seen as a good thing because there would be no suppression of any cone breakup, these are frequencies where the cone or dust cap begins to self resonate rather then act like a piston driven by the voice coil. At these frequencies the cone will continue to resonate for a short time even after the signal stops (like a tuning fork or bell but dying off much faster) leading to some smearing or added harshness. Also shows up as a sometimes very ragged or spikes in the response though severity depends on the driver. Normally the low pass is chosen at a frequency low enough to suppress any breakup and the related issues.

You can also get unwanted contribution from the woofer above the crossover point. Above and below axis frequency response likely look like a rollercoaster as you move in and out of response lobes where the individual output the two drivers overlap and go from being in phase to out of phase as your relative position from the two driver changes (closer to one further from the other). A lower crossover point will widen the vertical dispersion angle before lobbing occurs. It might be +- 5 degrees for this speaker (or less depending on how high the woofer actually plays), which is not a very wide sweet spot.

Sometimes you will see designs that don't use a low pass but they are often implemented with much smaller woofers, when done with larger woofers it's nearly always a cost saving measure.
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post #50 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 03:01 AM
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It's often not seen as a good thing because there would be no suppression of any cone breakup, these are frequencies where the cone or dust cap begins to self resonate rather then act like a piston driven by the voice coil. At these frequencies the cone will continue to resonate for a short time even after the signal stops (like a tuning fork or bell but dying off much faster) leading to some smearing or added harshness. Also shows up as a sometimes very ragged or spikes in the response though severity depends on the driver. Normally the low pass is chosen at a frequency low enough to suppress any breakup and the related issues.

You can also get unwanted contribution from the woofer above the crossover point. Above and below axis frequency response likely look like a rollercoaster as you move in and out of response lobes where the individual output the two drivers overlap and go from being in phase to out of phase as your relative position from the two driver changes (closer to one further from the other). A lower crossover point will widen the vertical dispersion angle before lobbing occurs. It might be +- 5 degrees for this speaker (or less depending on how high the woofer actually plays), which is not a very wide sweet spot.

Sometimes you will see designs that don't use a low pass but they are often implemented with much smaller woofers, when done with larger woofers it's nearly always a cost saving measure.
Thanks for the explanation and makes sense. I'm wondering if Mark noticed any of these issues during his time testing ... or anyone else that has them now?

Edit** I guess the good news is the x-over is easy enough to get to and modify if necessary. Seems to me that x-over parts a pretty inexpensive so not sure the rational for a company not to have the low pass filter if the above is a known issue? Then again maybe they feel its not an issue for the "intended" application of these speakers

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post #51 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
It's often not seen as a good thing because there would be no suppression of any cone breakup, these are frequencies where the cone or dust cap begins to self resonate rather then act like a piston driven by the voice coil. At these frequencies the cone will continue to resonate for a short time even after the signal stops (like a tuning fork or bell but dying off much faster) leading to some smearing or added harshness. Also shows up as a sometimes very ragged or spikes in the response though severity depends on the driver. Normally the low pass is chosen at a frequency low enough to suppress any breakup and the related issues.

You can also get unwanted contribution from the woofer above the crossover point. Above and below axis frequency response likely look like a rollercoaster as you move in and out of response lobes where the individual output the two drivers overlap and go from being in phase to out of phase as your relative position from the two driver changes (closer to one further from the other). A lower crossover point will widen the vertical dispersion angle before lobbing occurs. It might be +- 5 degrees for this speaker (or less depending on how high the woofer actually plays), which is not a very wide sweet spot.

Sometimes you will see designs that don't use a low pass but they are often implemented with much smaller woofers, when done with larger woofers it's nearly always a cost saving measure.
hi, what problems do you see if you have the opposite situation, ie no high pass on the tweeter but a low pass on the woofer?

thanks

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post #52 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the explanation and makes sense. I'm wondering if Mark noticed any of these issues during his time testing ... or anyone else that has them now?

Edit** I guess the good news is the x-over is easy enough to get to and modify if necessary. Seems to me that x-over parts a pretty inexpensive so not sure the rational for a company not to have the low pass filter if the above is a known issue? Then again maybe they feel its not an issue for the "intended" application of these speakers
You can see the off-axis dispersion issue and the cone breakup issue manifest in my measurements. The dispersion issues did not affect my listening. The cone break up may have led to a slightly grainier presentation than I get from "refined" speakers, but the Monoprice have their own charms that let them hang with much more expensive offerings (once EQ'd).

Like the Behringer thread, I expect some "expert" analysis of why this speaker probably doesn't sound good. Those are my favorite comments because they almost invariably do not involve first-hand experience/listening.

AVS can be like quicksand, where people get stuck on one issue (not just when it comes to speakers). Will this thread wind up hosting a clinic on what the crossover should have been? Possibly.

I certainly don't expect people to go back and read all of the comments, but my plan is to go active with the crossover and lower that crossover point.
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post #53 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 04:09 AM
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You can see the off-axis dispersion issue and the cone breakup issue manifest in my measurements. The dispersion issues did not affect my listening. The cone break up may have led to a slightly grainier presentation than I get from "refined" speakers, but the Monoprice have their own charms that let them hang with much more expensive offerings (once EQ'd).

Like the Behringer thread, I expect some "expert" analysis of why this speaker probably doesn't sound good. Those are my favorite comments because they almost invariably do not involve first-hand experience/listening.

AVS can be like quicksand, where people get stuck on one issue (not just when it comes to speakers). Will this wind up hosting a clinic on what the crossover should have been? Possibly.

I certainly don't expect people to go back and read all of the comments, but my plan is to go active with the crossover and lower that crossover point.
I hear you Mark. I guess the measurements and what you hear can be different. Fom your set-up - was the off axis and cone break-up an issue that you noticed ... or enough to "ruin" the experience. I have to go back and re-read your entire review, but I don't recall either being something that hindered your listening experience.

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post #54 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 04:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I hear you Mark. I guess the measurements and what you hear can be different. Some from your set-up - was the off axis and cone break-up an issue that you noticed ... or enough to "ruin" the experience. I have to go back and re-read your entire review, but I don't recall either being something that hindered your listening experience.
I have them set up right now, sitting right in front of $8000/pair tower speakers (that I have played with already in the same system). Review is over, but I am in no rush to take the Monos away since I am working on other stuff. They offer a great listening experience. You can tell the pricey towers have less distortion but the amount present in the Monoprice won't ruin any listening experiences. It just sounds a touch grainier.
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post #55 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 06:29 AM
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hi, what problems do you see if you have the opposite situation, ie no high pass on the tweeter but a low pass on the woofer?

thanks
I would think the biggest risk would be a short life for the tweeter, but I could be wrong

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post #56 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 08:22 AM
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It just sounds a touch grainier.
Grainier? Okay.
I was thinking they need a name, but, since they offer only one PA speaker, I guess Mono will work.
Mine shipped - CA to NJ - so it's going to take all week.
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post #57 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkfan9 View Post
I would think the biggest risk would be a short life for the tweeter, but I could be wrong
I think you're right - with no low frequency protection on the tweeter/CD, it will fail prematurely. That's why tweeters usually have at least a capacitor inline. Hopefully Mtj will explain it correctly for us shortly

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Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
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post #58 of 397 Old 08-24-2016, 09:40 AM
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Remember, this is designed to be an inexpensive, high-power PA speaker that can project sound hundreds of feet out, not just to your couch. The woofer construction for high-power operation is fairly straightforward. The HF section, however, is likely quite delicate -- probably would not handle more than fifteen watts continuous power before failing. It is therefore necessary to place as much of the HF load as possible on the relatively burly woofer, hence the high crossover point. Again, if the woofer is designed with attention to this, it will not necessarily penalize the frequency response (though, as noted, the transient response may not be optimum).

There is a significant dropoff in HF spectral power density with a 3.5 kHz instead of 2 kHz highpass filter. Few if any natural musical instruments produce fundamental tones above 3.5 kHz, so it is mostly harmonics above there. Harmonics are usually highly damped -- even cymbals, with their high initial peak energy, have modest actual power (energy though time). This dynamic is obvious to anyone with an add-on RTA in their rig, going back to the Winamp days.

If the woofer falloff above 3 kHz is steep, there is no need for any series elements as they will noticeably reduce the sensitivity (i.e., loudness) of the unit. Inductor coils are usually the bigger deal with filters; it makes perfect sense to just use one inductor, with two flanking capacitors, to get a three-pole 18 dB/octave filter slope for the delicate tweeter, which will make that increasing lower octave power easier for the tweeter to digest.

Add in some attenuation, polyswitch protection and the tweeter should be able to withstand the rigors of live use. Which, remember, include occasional live microphone feedback where the amplifier is at full clipping long enough to toast a tweeter -- something that couch potato-ing does not involve. A lower-frequency, complementary-filter crossover could be introduced for non-live use which may improve the transient response and widen the directivity. I would expect the "improvement" to be modest, but there will also be a penalty (2-3 dB or so) in the overall sensitivity that is a major feature of this unit for home use. (Stay away from karaoke, though...)
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post #59 of 397 Old 08-25-2016, 07:58 AM
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20% off Site-Wide: Use code 2CRAZY

Good til midnight PST tonight.

Tempting. Brings the $159 price down to $127.2 but back up to $172.42 with a $45.22 shipping charge.

Interested to know how it stacks up against the Berry's,Mackies or maybe any other PA speaker like Yamaha, QSC, et al?
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post #60 of 397 Old 08-25-2016, 08:25 AM
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