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post #271 of 284 Old 11-30-2019, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I don't know why that would be, the bass shouldn't affect detail at all but either way if you don't want to run a high pass on them then towers may be the way to go for you. Just know that you'll be spending a lot more money doing so considering the Reference ones properly integrated with subs at 80Hz will likely outperform any towers you buy.
Charles Hanson cautioned against inserting anything between the KX-5 Twenty preamp and VX-5 Twenty amp, probably because of the zero feedback design. I learned his admonition was well founded. The Ayre stuff just sounds better with balanced connections straight form preamp to amp, and that sound is damn good. He had no qualms about low-passing the full range signal from the preamp through the bass manger to the subs, and that's what I do. The bass manager permits manipulation of a number of parameters, including crossover, slope, Q, and levels within frequency bands while viewing the acoustic effects of those manipulations on a video display.

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post #272 of 284 Old 11-30-2019, 06:41 PM
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Just curious if you've been able to spend much time with Reference 1's. I have, and know that they are unlike any other stand mount speakers made by KEF in how they can deal with a full range signal.

I'll accept the way @dbphd runs his because he's had them for a while now and knows well to get the best out of them with his equipment. I'd probably melt listening to music in his room.
I haven't unfortunately but I'm fairly confident in saying that a 15" woofer is going to play bass better than a 6.5" woofer any day of the week lol.
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post #273 of 284 Old 11-30-2019, 07:02 PM
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I haven't unfortunately but I'm fairly confident in saying that a 15" woofer is going to play bass better than a 6.5" woofer any day of the week lol.
You need to. Of course a well-engineered subwoofer with a 15" driver and a powerful amp can output good bass from probably 100hz to below 20hz. Then there's the music one chooses to listen to, which often has little or nothing below 30hz and that's where the Reference 1 with a well-engineered woofer and a powerful amp driving it can actually act with faster attack and decay, behaving more like the original instruments in the recording do.

Get in front of a well setup pair of Reference 1's for a couple of hours as I have and you might be more accepting of the way @dbphd runs his.
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post #274 of 284 Old 12-01-2019, 08:14 AM
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Sorry to step in too, but for music usage (stereo) i think a great pair of speakers being able to do full range on their own can give more "realistic" results than a setup with one (or more) subs. It's only my opinion too from my own experience.
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post #275 of 284 Old 12-01-2019, 12:08 PM
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Sorry to step in too, but for music usage (stereo) i think a great pair of speakers being able to do full range on their own can give more "realistic" results than a setup with one (or more) subs. It's only my opinion too from my own experience.
Do you have a hypothesis about why this might be so? Might cognitive dissonance play a role?
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post #276 of 284 Old 12-01-2019, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
Charles Hanson cautioned against inserting anything between the KX-5 Twenty preamp and VX-5 Twenty amp, probably because of the zero feedback design. I learned his admonition was well founded. The Ayre stuff just sounds better with balanced connections straight form preamp to amp, and that sound is damn good. He had no qualms about low-passing the full range signal from the preamp through the bass manger to the subs, and that's what I do. The bass manager permits manipulation of a number of parameters, including crossover, slope, Q, and levels within frequency bands while viewing the acoustic effects of those manipulations on a video display.

db
One other thing you could try if you don't want to high pass your mains is plugging the ports and then letting the subs fill in what's missing. This would allow them to play up a bit higher as well. On the other hand if you don't listen that loud, running them full range is no problem, I was just answering your original question about wanting more impact from them, I think the main way to achieve that is to get the subs playing a bit higher.
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post #277 of 284 Old 12-01-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post

Do you have a hypothesis about why this might be so? Might cognitive dissonance play a role?
I won't be as technical as you guys and more, English is not my native language, but I guess it's related to physics.
Partly becaus, music and particularly the ones with instruments has to be played with directivity (and all frequencies from a same speaker) unlike what outputs a subwoofer to get a similar natural precision / feeling.

Edit : I just realized that my post may mean the very same thing you said

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post #278 of 284 Old 12-02-2019, 09:53 AM
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To you who have heard both, how similar are the highs and mids between the LS50 and Reference 1s?

If there is a difference, how would you describe it?

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post #279 of 284 Old 12-02-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by AVTimme View Post
To you who have heard both, how similar are the highs and mids between the LS50 and Reference 1s?

If there is a difference, how would you describe it?
I use a pair of Reference 1s in one stereo setup, a pair of LS50s in another, and six LS50s in a mch setup. The LS50s sound very similar to the Reference 1s. The mids seem more fully realized with the Reference 1s and they are better as full range speakers with more low-frequency extension. The Reference 1s don't really need to be supplemented by subs, the LS50s do for large orchestrations. The LS50s are amazing speakers at their price; the Reference 1s are beautiful, superior speakers at a much higher price. It's a cost/benefit decision -- I bought the LS50s new, the Reference 1s used.
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post #280 of 284 Old 12-02-2019, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
I use a pair of Reference 1s in one stereo setup, a pair of LS50s in another, and six LS50s in a mch setup. The LS50s sound very similar to the Reference 1s. The mids seem more fully realized with the Reference 1s and they are better as full range speakers with more low-frequency extension. The Reference 1s don't really need to be supplemented by subs, the LS50s do for large orchestrations. The LS50s are amazing speakers at their price; the Reference 1s are beautiful, superior speakers at a much higher price. It's a cost/benefit decision -- I bought the LS50s new, the Reference 1s used.
Great! It would be nice to hear a pair of reference 1s but great to hear that they sound so similar

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post #281 of 284 Old 12-02-2019, 07:22 PM
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Still enjoying my Ref 205/2s (in Walnut Gloss). Heard some Blade2s recently and they sounded fantastic. SJ
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post #282 of 284 Old 12-02-2019, 07:31 PM
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Still enjoying my Ref 205/2s (in Walnut Gloss). Heard some Blade2s recently and they sounded fantastic. SJ
I've never had the opportunity to hear 205/2's, though thinking about taking the 4hr drive out to visit a friend who has them.

The Blade 2's, I've heard several times now with a variety of amps. Stunning, just too far out of reach for me now. Somewhere, there's a pair of lightly used grey ones in original boxes for sale for $14k. Killer deal that a member of my FB group mentioned.

He must have meant THESE.

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post #283 of 284 Old 12-06-2019, 02:51 PM
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Get in front of a well setup pair of Reference 1's for a couple of hours as I have and you might be more accepting of the way @dbphd runs his.
Ask and you shall receive lol, I finally drove up to hear the Reference 1 and was blown away. First I heard the new Revel M126be, a $4k bookshelf with the Beryllium tweeter and they were good but they didn't move me the way my LS50's do. The Reference 1 were a different story, the transparency and openness reminded me of the LS50's but just better from top to bottom in every way. The cabinet is also the first cabinet I've ever knocked on that felt as solid as the LS50, which is really impressive considering how much larger the Reference 1 is. And yes the bass was incredible for a 6.5" woofer, we played the Live Hotel California from Hell Freezes over and I couldn't believe how much bass they were putting out in a large room. They weren't straining at our listening levels but I would still rather have them crossed over to subs and with subs I would put them up against any speaker at any price.

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I use a pair of Reference 1s in one stereo setup, a pair of LS50s in another, and six LS50s in a mch setup. The LS50s sound very similar to the Reference 1s. The mids seem more fully realized with the Reference 1s and they are better as full range speakers with more low-frequency extension. The Reference 1s don't really need to be supplemented by subs, the LS50s do for large orchestrations. The LS50s are amazing speakers at their price; the Reference 1s are beautiful, superior speakers at a much higher price. It's a cost/benefit decision -- I bought the LS50s new, the Reference 1s used.
After finally hearing the Reference 1, this is a great comparison of them, the LS50 really are the little brother to the Reference 1. I was hoping the R3 would come close but they're quite different and not really anything like the Reference, I actually preferred my LS50 to them. The Reference 1 reminded me of the LS50 just a bit better in every way, from top to bottom. Now at home crossed over at 100Hz with a 4th order high pass and a few PEQ filters to smooth out the highs of the LS50, I feel like I am very close to the Reference 1 sound(but still not quite) but it takes a lot of work to get there. The Reference 1 sound amazing by themselves without help from subs or EQ and are a complete speaker, I will have 3 as my LCR someday.
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post #284 of 284 Old 12-06-2019, 05:12 PM
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Ask and you shall receive lol, I finally drove up to hear the Reference 1 and was blown away. First I heard the new Revel M126be, a $4k bookshelf with the Beryllium tweeter and they were good but they didn't move me the way my LS50's do. The Reference 1 were a different story, the transparency and openness reminded me of the LS50's but just better from top to bottom in every way. The cabinet is also the first cabinet I've ever knocked on that felt as solid as the LS50, which is really impressive considering how much larger the Reference 1 is. And yes the bass was incredible for a 6.5" woofer, we played the Live Hotel California from Hell Freezes over and I couldn't believe how much bass they were putting out in a large room. They weren't straining at our listening levels but I would still rather have them crossed over to subs and with subs I would put them up against any speaker at any price.



After finally hearing the Reference 1, this is a great comparison of them, the LS50 really are the little brother to the Reference 1. I was hoping the R3 would come close but they're quite different and not really anything like the Reference, I actually preferred my LS50 to them. The Reference 1 reminded me of the LS50 just a bit better in every way, from top to bottom. Now at home crossed over at 100Hz with a 4th order high pass and a few PEQ filters to smooth out the highs of the LS50, I feel like I am very close to the Reference 1 sound(but still not quite) but it takes a lot of work to get there. The Reference 1 sound amazing by themselves without help from subs or EQ and are a complete speaker, I will have 3 as my LCR someday.
I'm so glad for you that you were able to audition the Reference 1's! I think for most everyone, it's not until you see and hear them in person can one truly appreciate what they are. Will the sound, looks, and hand-crafted quality be worth the expense for everyone? Of course not, but it will be for me when I can find the means to get a pair of Reference 3's. Those are my target for retirement, in the living room where they'll have enough space to sing their full glory.
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