Upgrade from Pioneer SP-C22 center? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 37Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
TheCarFather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Plattsburgh, NY
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 101
Upgrade from Pioneer SP-C22 center?

I currently run the Pioneer Andrew Jones system in my living room consisting of FS52 towers, C22 center, and BS22 surrounds. I've noticed that the center is a bit "muddy" when it comes to movie dialogue so I've been thinking about replacing it. I know that the front three speakers should be timbre matched, so I wanted to know if there was an option for me that would pair well with my FS52 towers. I'd be working with a limited budget of around $250. Just wanted to see if I had any options you all would suggest, or if I'm stuck with this until I can upgrade my front towers as well to match a new center. Unfortunately that is not in my cards right now.
TheCarFather is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 07:01 AM
Senior Member
 
busybe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 371
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCarFather View Post
I currently run the Pioneer Andrew Jones system in my living room consisting of FS52 towers, C22 center, and BS22 surrounds. I've noticed that the center is a bit "muddy" when it comes to movie dialogue so I've been thinking about replacing it. I know that the front three speakers should be timbre matched, so I wanted to know if there was an option for me that would pair well with my FS52 towers. I'd be working with a limited budget of around $250. Just wanted to see if I had any options you all would suggest, or if I'm stuck with this until I can upgrade my front towers as well to match a new center. Unfortunately that is not in my cards right now.
Try BIC FH6 (cheaper than your budget but a great center speaker) or KEFQ200c
acampero likes this.
busybe is offline  
post #3 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 07:15 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
You're not alone. That center channel has been complained about for many months on this forum, specifically with your concern of poor quality control, clarity, and that sense of "muddiness." The option that will get thrown around often is trying out the BIC FH6 LCR that you can purchase risk free from Walmart. They have a 90 return window. You can ship it to your house and then return to a local store if you'd like.

The FH6 is a horn loaded speaker which is very different from what you're coming from. The AJ speakers are warm, laid back, and very polite. They are a neighbors best friend. What this speaker does give is crisp, clear dialogue without any heaviness or congestion to it. Voices are just very easy to understand and register. I had the same setup as you at one point, but exchanged the towers to the bookshelves to get speakers off the floor. I currently run the BS22s as fronts with the FH6 as my center. I've never encountered any timbre issues at all. Some people MAY notice some panning effect issues, but my guess in a blind test, no one will be able to detect the differences.

The AJ speakers are great for a lot of music, but for HT I'm finding out they just don't have the punch and dynamics that people want from movies. In essence, you have nothing to lose to try out the FH6 and see what that does for your setup. Part of many people's hesitation it seems is their price, which in the audio world these speakers come in pretty cheap. If BIC America spent any money on advertising, my guess is this $100 speaker could double in price. They have a Klipsh like sound but without the shrillness.
butie120 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 08:07 AM
Senior Member
 
crcostel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 278
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Try the Philharmonic upgrade of the SP-C22. Then later if you can upgrade your fronts to match.


http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html#cc
crcostel is offline  
post #5 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 08:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Elihawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Iowa City, Iowa
Posts: 6,087
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1949 Post(s)
Liked: 2103
Quote:
Originally Posted by crcostel View Post
Try the Philharmonic upgrade of the SP-C22. Then later if you can upgrade your fronts to match.


http://philharmonicaudio.com/aa.html#cc
My suggestion as well...won't be an exact timbre match, but Dennis has made this speaker better for not a huge sum of cash. Otherwise, budget to replace te entire front stage...
zieglj01 and mikeTRON250LM like this.

Set up #1: EMP e5Ti, e5Ci, and EMP e5Bi surrounds, Outlaw LFM1 Plus sub, SVS NSD SB12 sub, Marantz Slimeline 1504 AV receiver
Set up #2: Def Tech SM450, CLR2002, SLS Qline surrounds and EMPtek10i10i sub, Denon 1910 AV receiver
Set up #3: Philharmonics- BMR in a 2.0 system, music only, Yamaha RXV-363 AV receiver
Elihawk is offline  
post #6 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 18,957
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3278 Post(s)
Liked: 3174
If you really want to do different -- then look at the JBL Studio 235
https://www.amazon.com/JBL-Studio-23...jbl+studio+235

If you want to stay along the same line -- then the Philharmonic [modded Pioneer] in post #4 -- this will have more clarity, Dennis does good work.
mikeTRON250LM likes this.

----------------
Who AM I
zieglj01 is online now  
post #7 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 10:14 AM
Advanced Member
 
mikeTRON250LM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 862
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked: 345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
My suggestion as well...won't be an exact timbre match, but Dennis has made this speaker better for not a huge sum of cash. Otherwise, budget to replace te entire front stage...
Give this a try and let us know what you think

I ended up replacing my LCR because I wasn't aware of that center.
mikeTRON250LM is offline  
post #8 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 11:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post

The FH6 is a horn loaded speaker which is very different from what you're coming from. The AJ speakers are warm, laid back, and very polite. They are a neighbors best friend. What this speaker does give is crisp, clear dialogue without any heaviness or congestion to it. Voices are just very easy to understand and register. I had the same setup as you at one point, but exchanged the towers to the bookshelves to get speakers off the floor. I currently run the BS22s as fronts with the FH6 as my center. I've never encountered any timbre issues at all. Some people MAY notice some panning effect issues, but my guess in a blind test, no one will be able to detect the differences.

I might lean towards the modded C22 over the Bic, simply because it may be a bit closer in timbre.

That panning effect thing isn't a big deal to me, but I have noticed it on occasion (I'm using a mismatch, but neither the C22 or Bic). The plane/car/voices panning... sometimes it does stand out. It may not bother most people, but I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #9 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 11:53 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I might lean towards the modded C22 over the Bic, simply because it may be a bit closer in timbre.

That panning effect thing isn't a big deal to me, but I have noticed it on occasion (I'm using a mismatch, but neither the C22 or Bic). The plane/car/voices panning... sometimes it does stand out. It may not bother most people, but I wouldn't dismiss it entirely.
Oh I'm sure. I have detected it at moments as well, but not nearly enough times for me to sweat it. As I said in another thread, I'd love to see a comparison between the Fh6 and the modded c22 for overall voice clarity and dynamics for a center channel. If that modded c22 is anything like the Bic, I could maybe live with my BS22s as fronts, but I still feel I might be missing something for dynamics in movies without a more lively speaker. I don't know...
butie120 is offline  
post #10 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 04:38 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Oh I'm sure. I have detected it at moments as well, but not nearly enough times for me to sweat it. As I said in another thread, I'd love to see a comparison between the Fh6 and the modded c22 for overall voice clarity and dynamics for a center channel. If that modded c22 is anything like the Bic, I could maybe live with my BS22s as fronts, but I still feel I might be missing something for dynamics in movies without a more lively speaker. I don't know...
What are you using for fronts now, BS22s?
Easy way to see if you are missing anything (assuming you don't like the Bics as left/rights), is to utilize Best Buy's return policy. Pick out a good pair of something you might one day consider buying, even if too expensive right now.

Test them against the BS22s. If your ears feel like dancing with the new speakers, while the BS22s seem like the speakers are playing while inside a paper bag, you have your answer.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #11 of 126 Old 02-24-2017, 08:53 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,200
Mentioned: 229 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7412 Post(s)
Liked: 5659
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
What are you using for fronts now, BS22s?
Easy way to see if you are missing anything (assuming you don't like the Bics as left/rights), is to utilize Best Buy's return policy. Pick out a good pair of something you might one day consider buying, even if too expensive right now.

Test them against the BS22s. If your ears feel like dancing with the new speakers, while the BS22s seem like the speakers are playing while inside a paper bag, you have your answer.
The Sony Core bookshelf speakers, which BB sometimes puts on sale at $170/pair, would be an interesting test...they are supposedly much better than Sony's usual fare.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #12 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 02:18 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
The Sony Core bookshelf speakers, which BB sometimes puts on sale at $170/pair, would be an interesting test...they are supposedly much better than Sony's usual fare.
They were even cheaper right before the holidays, at $100/pair. Although it'd probably be a long wait before they are that price again.

For HT, I expect the Cores to beat the Pioneers. For music, not sure which would be better ... probably a preference thing.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #13 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 03:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
pase22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Montreal,Canada
Posts: 7,482
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3457 Post(s)
Liked: 2920
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Oh I'm sure. I have detected it at moments as well, but not nearly enough times for me to sweat it. As I said in another thread, I'd love to see a comparison between the Fh6 and the modded c22 for overall voice clarity and dynamics for a center channel. If that modded c22 is anything like the Bic, I could maybe live with my BS22s as fronts, but I still feel I might be missing something for dynamics in movies without a more lively speaker. I don't know...
You could try a pair of RBH R5Bi speakers for $225 a pair or less if they have any "B" stock lying around. They would definitely be an improvement over the BS22's as would the Philharmonic AA's.

Kef LS50,Q200C, Q100, Kef Kube 10B (X2) , Denon AVR-X3400H, NAD 216 THX, Panasonic 50" Plasma, Xbox One.
Bedroom: Kef Q100 ,JBL Loft 20, SVS SB-2000, Denon AVR-S710W, PS3, 32" Insigna LED.
pase22 is offline  
post #14 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 06:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
What are you using for fronts now, BS22s?
Easy way to see if you are missing anything (assuming you don't like the Bics as left/rights), is to utilize Best Buy's return policy. Pick out a good pair of something you might one day consider buying, even if too expensive right now.

Test them against the BS22s. If your ears feel like dancing with the new speakers, while the BS22s seem like the speakers are playing while inside a paper bag, you have your answer.
Yes, I'm using the BS22s as my fronts. I have the RTiA3 coming today and Bic 65B on Monday to try out for my fronts as well. Maybe I will try the Sony cores that people have mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
The Sony Core bookshelf speakers, which BB sometimes puts on sale at $170/pair, would be an interesting test...they are supposedly much better than Sony's usual fare.
Yeah, that's another pair that I have read about and considered. As previously mentioned, I have the RTiA3 and Bic 65B coming today to try out as my fronts. I get the RTiA3 for 60 days, the Bic 65B for 90 days, so will have plenty of time with them. With kids, I could easily go a week without turning the receiver on. Oh how life has changed...

Anyway, I actually setup a full frontal assault of the Bic Fh6-LCR which I've never really spent much time with. I setup Audyssey, toed in slightly with the tweeters about one foot above ear level (I originally mounted my wall brackets for the BS22). For the first time I watched an entire movie with all FH6s as my front sound stage. We watched "The Accountant" last night and call me crazy, but this seemed to be a very different experience with all the Bics up front. There were some scenes that just felt like a different experience, where you "felt there", and sounds feeling more crisp. Maybe it's new speaker trial bias or something, but things sounded so alive and dynamic, nothing felt subdued about the experience compared to at least what I recall when watching "Jason Bourne" with the BS22s. I crossed all fronts at 90hz. I did order the 65B, and actually have read where some say the sealed FH6 will have a tighter midrange compared to the 65B, but who knows if there's any real validity to this. Even the woman at Bic America thought the FH6 as fronts, if you have a sub, will be better than the 65B due to the dual woofers.

Call me crazy Zorba, but it seems the more I spend time with this speaker the more I'm impressed. I have no doubt that for "critical" music listening these would be burned out in the fire pit of people's homes in a heartbeat and would be rougher around the edges, but for HT use they seem to perform quite well. And they aren't bad at all music. Pianos and horn instruments, for example, they sound quite pleasing. It just seems that I shouldn't like them for how much bad rap they get, terrible website, no advertising, sold at Walmart for the love of God, and bottom of the barrel prices.

It will be interesting to use these for a bit, while trying out the RTiA3s and possibly those Sony Cores.

Last edited by butie120; 02-25-2017 at 06:36 AM.
butie120 is offline  
post #15 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 06:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
You could try a pair of RBH R5Bi speakers for $225 a pair or less if they have any "B" stock lying around. They would definitely be an improvement over the BS22's as would the Philharmonic AA's.
Yeah these are also in my radar as well. I've considered their bigger center channel as well. Aesthetically I just can't put a RBH on its side, lol. Just looks so odd to me.
butie120 is offline  
post #16 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 07:25 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zieglj01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 18,957
Mentioned: 82 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3278 Post(s)
Liked: 3174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
For HT, I expect the Cores to beat the Pioneers. For music, not sure which would be better ... probably a preference thing.
For me, the Sony Core is the better all around speaker -- a lot of work went into them.

----------------
Who AM I
zieglj01 is online now  
post #17 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 08:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,200
Mentioned: 229 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7412 Post(s)
Liked: 5659
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I have the RTiA3 and Bic 65B coming today to try out as my fronts. I get the RTiA3 for 60 days, the Bic 65B for 90 days, so will have plenty of time with them. With kids, I could easily go a week without turning the receiver on. Oh how life has changed...

Anyway, I actually setup a full frontal assault of the Bic Fh6-LCR which I've never really spent much time with. I setup Audyssey, toed in slightly with the tweeters about one foot above ear level (I originally mounted my wall brackets for the BS22). For the first time I watched an entire movie with all FH6s as my front sound stage. We watched "The Accountant" last night and call me crazy, but this seemed to be a very different experience with all the Bics up front. There were some scenes that just felt like a different experience, where you "felt there", and sounds feeling more crisp. Maybe it's new speaker trial bias or something, but things sounded so alive and dynamic, nothing felt subdued about the experience compared to at least what I recall when watching "Jason Bourne" with the BS22s. I crossed all fronts at 90hz. I did order the 65B, and actually have read where some say the sealed FH6 will have a tighter midrange compared to the 65B, but who knows if there's any real validity to this. Even the woman at Bic America thought the FH6 as fronts, if you have a sub, will be better than the 65B due to the dual woofers.

Call me crazy Zorba, but it seems the more I spend time with this speaker the more I'm impressed. I have no doubt that for "critical" music listening these would be burned out in the fire pit of people's homes in a heartbeat and would be rougher around the edges, but for HT use they seem to perform quite well. And they aren't bad at all music. Pianos and horn instruments, for example, they sound quite pleasing. It just seems that I shouldn't like them for how much bad rap they get, terrible website, no advertising, sold at Walmart for the love of God, and bottom of the barrel prices.

It will be interesting to use these for a bit, while trying out the RTiA3s and possibly those Sony Cores.
Man, you should really start a separate "FH6 vs FH65B vs RTiA3 vs BS22" shootout thread...in addition, with using the FH6 as a mismatched center with all 3 of those other speakers, you've got like 7 different permutations to compare against each other! In fact it'd be interesting to compare the FH6 vs the F65B vs the RTiA3 as mismatched centers using the BS22 as the control L/R fronts.

I suggest you arm yourself with an SPL meter and a clipboard with lots of paper for jotting down notes.

PS. Your post reminds me to take a photo of the R5Bi lying on its side in the center position...you'd be surprised, it really doesn't look bad at all due to it already having a longish/tallish shape rather than a more boxy-looking Ascend 170 type shape.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #18 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 08:54 AM
Advanced Member
 
djp2k7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 788
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 391 Post(s)
Liked: 315
If you have room for it you could also use another BS22 as a center
djp2k7 is offline  
post #19 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 12:30 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
If you have room for it you could also use another BS22 as a center
The BS22 as a center would be the same or worse than the C22 (I expect even worse). Issue isn't that the C22 is a bad speaker compared to the rest of the Pioneer range... it's just that the entire range isn't great with voice clarity. Back when I had them I tested a BS22 as a center ... not any better than the C22 (at least that I recall).
Doe Doe is online now  
post #20 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 12:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
We watched "The Accountant" last night and call me crazy, but this seemed to be a very different experience with all the Bics up front. There were some scenes that just felt like a different experience, where you "felt there", and sounds feeling more crisp. Maybe it's new speaker trial bias or something, but things sounded so alive and dynamic, nothing felt subdued about the experience compared to at least what I recall when watching "Jason Bourne" with the BS22s.
I'm not sure why you are really surprised by this. The Pioneers are fine for music (mostly) and are okay-ish for HT if on a super budget, but they definitely aren't crisp or great with clarity.

My own past experience was basically like this:
Using 15 year old Sony HTIB setup with rotted woofers, and got a set of BS22s + C22. Hooked them up, all excited, and... hmm... okay, did I hook them up wrong? They sound okay, but sort of muffled, or an octave lower than they should be. No sparkle, no wow factor... movies were okay, but it was sort of 'meh, better than what I had, but not what I expected'. Now certain music sounded really nice with the Pioneers, and for the money they are fine, but don't be surprised if tons of other speakers will seem better to you when watching movies.

Afterwards, my first CL speakers were a set of 25 year old yahamas I got for $10. They were better for HT than the BS22s. They looked god awful aesthetically, had no mids really, but they had tons of sparkle. I might even like cheapo Insignia bookshelves better for HT than the BS22s. Not for music, but for movies... probably. Unless you are choosing something really terrible, like low end polks, I expect most speakers to be better than the BS22s if using them for HT.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #21 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 01:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I'm not sure why you are really surprised by this. The Pioneers are fine for music (mostly) and are okay-ish for HT if on a super budget, but they definitely aren't crisp or great with clarity.

My own past experience was basically like this:
Using 15 year old Sony HTIB setup with rotted woofers, and got a set of BS22s + C22. Hooked them up, all excited, and... hmm... okay, did I hook them up wrong? They sound okay, but sort of muffled, or an octave lower than they should be. No sparkle, no wow factor... movies were okay, but it was sort of 'meh, better than what I had, but not what I expected'. Now certain music sounded really nice with the Pioneers, and for the money they are fine, but don't be surprised if tons of other speakers will seem better to you when watching movies.

Afterwards, my first CL speakers were a set of 25 year old yahamas I got for $10. They were better for HT than the BS22s. They looked god awful aesthetically, had no mids really, but they had tons of sparkle. I might even like cheapo Insignia bookshelves better for HT than the BS22s. Not for music, but for movies... probably. Unless you are choosing something really terrible, like low end polks, I expect most speakers to be better than the BS22s if using them for HT.
I guess I shouldn't have framed it as "being surprised" per se, but more how dramatic of a difference it made, considering so many on forums almost warns you to stay away with them with a 10 foot pole. "You mean you're considering the Bics? Umm, yeah...you can do MUCH better than those." That's probably true, but at what cost and from who's opinion?

It's just really too bad that these Pioneers don't have a more excitable treble, because then they would do a lot of things right for very little money. I will say too that those 6 1/2 inch drivers may be pushing out just overall volume as well compared to the Pioneer 4", but that just might be the sub as well.

I now have the PB 2000 and when Ben Affleck's character in the film shot the sniper rifle for the first time, the couch literally vibrated up a storm with impact. I gave my wife a quick less on frequency response, and she pretended to give a damn for 16 seconds. Anyhow, I turned off the sub, and while the couch no longer had that sensation replaying that same scene, it definitely poured out volume and dynamics that I haven't really experienced much with the Pioneers. I'm really looking forward to testing out the RTiA3 and 65B.

And all this time my SP-C22 is just sitting in the corner, collecting dust, probably reflecting on all the wonderful but lack of sparkle moments it had in his lifetime. On to a new journey my friend...
butie120 is offline  
post #22 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 01:36 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Zorba922's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 13,200
Mentioned: 229 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7412 Post(s)
Liked: 5659
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I guess I shouldn't have framed it as "being surprised" per se, but more how dramatic of a difference it made, considering so many on forums almost warns you to stay away with them with a 10 foot pole. "You mean you're considering the Bics? Umm, yeah...you can do MUCH better than those." That's probably true, but at what cost and from who's opinion?
lol, you have to keep in mind that a LOT of the advice given on forums like this is driven by people's need to validate their own purchases and reassure themselves that they didn't get snookered.

The "you get what you pay for" mantra is usually a dead giveaway of either an incognito sales/industry rep or an insecure owner who probably DID get fleeced and doesn't want to admit it to himself.
noears likes this.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
Zorba922 is offline  
post #23 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 02:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
I guess I shouldn't have framed it as "being surprised" per se, but more how dramatic of a difference it made, considering so many on forums almost warns you to stay away with them with a 10 foot pole. "You mean you're considering the Bics? Umm, yeah...you can do MUCH better than those." That's probably true, but at what cost and from who's opinion?

It's just really too bad that these Pioneers don't have a more excitable treble, because then they would do a lot of things right for very little money. I will say too that those 6 1/2 inch drivers may be pushing out just overall volume as well compared to the Pioneer 4", but that just might be the sub as well.

And all this time my SP-C22 is just sitting in the corner, collecting dust, probably reflecting on all the wonderful but lack of sparkle moments it had in his lifetime. On to a new journey my friend...
I haven't followed BIC threads that closely, but I'm not aware of anyone saying to avoid them exactly. Just that some folks don't like the idea of a mismatched timbre (when using it as a center). In general I'd say they are wrong, unless it's easy to get the proper center for a setup (and it's decent).

Only negatives I've heard about those Bics are that they may not get so deep and male voices may not be as realistic as they should be ... no idea if that is true, since I haven't heard them.

Treble does seem to be the issue with the Pioneers (and/or crossover), which is why I guess philharmonics used to mod them, and still do with the C22. It's a speaker where you sort of go, 'If they just fixed this clarity issue, it'd be great'. Then you try different speaker positions, different avr settings, thinking you can fix it... but not really.

If you want to sell the C22 on CL it shouldn't be that difficult by the way. I sold mine a while ago... popular range of speakers, so it's not like trying to sell an obscure brand.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #24 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 02:34 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
butie120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,818
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1122 Post(s)
Liked: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I haven't followed BIC threads that closely, but I'm not aware of anyone saying to avoid them exactly. Just that some folks don't like the idea of a mismatched timbre (when using it as a center). In general I'd say they are wrong, unless it's easy to get the proper center for a setup (and it's decent).

Only negatives I've heard about those Bics are that they may not get so deep and male voices may not be as realistic as they should be ... no idea if that is true, since I haven't heard them.

Treble does seem to be the issue with the Pioneers (and/or crossover), which is why I guess philharmonics used to mod them, and still do with the C22. It's a speaker where you sort of go, 'If they just fixed this clarity issue, it'd be great'. Then you try different speaker positions, different avr settings, thinking you can fix it... but not really.

If you want to sell the C22 on CL it shouldn't be that difficult by the way. I sold mine a while ago... popular range of speakers, so it's not like trying to sell an obscure brand.
Well for those who own Bics they seem aware of how they offer a lot of quality for a low price. There is quite a following on those forums, but people outside those forums seem highly skeptical. I'm not even talking about just the center channel dilemma, but just using that speaker line in general. Or, how it's the "lower Klipsch" type of horn speaker. People know Klipsch, so when people see you have those in your home, they KNOW you paid a pretty penny for them.

I swear, I think if Bics cleaned up their website, put some money towards advertising, and even increased their prices, they would be looked at differently. I recall when someone first reviewed the Pioneer FS52 and they said they almost wish they were more expensive so people wouldn't just assume they were junk. Or, a higher price could also maybe offer more cabinet colors, different size drivers, etc.

In regards to the male voices, I honestly haven't noticed it much. I think male voices sound just fine, to my ears. They still some "grizzly" to me if that's their vocal quality. I should try a movie with Morgan Freeman to see what he sounds like.
butie120 is offline  
post #25 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
TheCarFather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Plattsburgh, NY
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 101
I have been satisfied overall with my Pioneer set, since I previously had been using a 10yr old Samsung HTIB. The Pioneer AJ's are MILES better than what I had, and for the money I spent on them I'm fairly impressed. I did just raise the crossover on the C22 up to 120hz, and it did help a bit. So now I have the FS52's crossed at 80hz, C22 at 120hz, BS22's at 100hz, and my Polk T15's I'm using as rears at 150hz. I have the LFE crossover set at 80hz on my dual BIC F12's.

For now I'll probably just keep what I've got. Hopefully I'll be upgrading to a single 15" subwoofer soon, either the HSU VTF-3 MK5 or PSA 15V. Once I get that dialed in I figure out what my next option will be. I only have a two seat couch for my MLP, so I'm hoping I can get away with the single 15. If I can, then next up will be some new towers along with a matching center channel.
TheCarFather is offline  
post #26 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 03:32 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by butie120 View Post
Well for those who own Bics they seem aware of how they offer a lot of quality for a low price. There is quite a following on those forums, but people outside those forums seem highly skeptical. I'm not even talking about just the center channel dilemma, but just using that speaker line in general. Or, how it's the "lower Klipsch" type of horn speaker. People know Klipsch, so when people see you have those in your home, they KNOW you paid a pretty penny for them.

I swear, I think if Bics cleaned up their website, put some money towards advertising, and even increased their prices, they would be looked at differently. I recall when someone first reviewed the Pioneer FS52 and they said they almost wish they were more expensive so people wouldn't just assume they were junk. Or, a higher price could also maybe offer more cabinet colors, different size drivers, etc.
Part of it is what Zorba mentioned... people need to justify in their own minds what they spent for a setup. "I spend 1K on similar speakers, so those $100 speakers can't possibly be any good at all." -- that sort of thing.

Some of it is brand recognition. That is why some people ask about getting bose speakers here.

People always equate price with quality, even if unjustified. Just the way it is.

And if male voices sound fine to you (guess try some Darth Vader if you want to be certain), it's probably fine. Someone here (forget who) stated at one time that sometimes male voices aren't quite as deep as normal w/ those. I just know on some speakers that don't go below 90-100ish, I find male voices less manly than usual. But the ones I have tested have also been small speakers too.

Last edited by Doe Doe; 02-25-2017 at 03:45 PM.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #27 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 03:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCarFather View Post
I have been satisfied overall with my Pioneer set, since I previously had been using a 10yr old Samsung HTIB. The Pioneer AJ's are MILES better than what I had, and for the money I spent on them I'm fairly impressed. I did just raise the crossover on the C22 up to 120hz, and it did help a bit. So now I have the FS52's crossed at 80hz, C22 at 120hz, BS22's at 100hz, and my Polk T15's I'm using as rears at 150hz. I have the LFE crossover set at 80hz on my dual BIC F12's.

For now I'll probably just keep what I've got. Hopefully I'll be upgrading to a single 15" subwoofer soon, either the HSU VTF-3 MK5 or PSA 15V. Once I get that dialed in I figure out what my next option will be. I only have a two seat couch for my MLP, so I'm hoping I can get away with the single 15. If I can, then next up will be some new towers along with a matching center channel.
If it was me, I'd upgrade the center before upgrading the sub. Again the Bic or modded C22 should be an improvement for you. And it's not like either is super expensive. If you don't like the Bic you could always just return it to the store, risk free.

And isn't 150 a bit high for those polks? I realize they aren't the best speakers, but they should be able to hit at least 100 I assume?
Zorba922 likes this.
Doe Doe is online now  
post #28 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 03:59 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
TheCarFather's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Plattsburgh, NY
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked: 101
150hz is the recommended crossover for rear speakers in a 7.1 system (7.2 in my case).
TheCarFather is offline  
post #29 of 126 Old 02-25-2017, 04:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 4,923
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2680 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCarFather View Post
150hz is the recommended crossover for rear speakers in a 7.1 system (7.2 in my case).
Ah, didn't know that, since I can't do the 7.1 thing. I wonder what the reasoning is though? Maybe lower freq just sound sort of distracting back there or something?
Doe Doe is online now  
post #30 of 126 Old 03-20-2017, 08:41 PM
Member
 
xpertpredator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked: 13
I am in a similar situation. I am considering either the BIC or going with an svs prime center. My current setup is the pioneer fs52 towers, with the c22 center, and the bs22 bookshelf, with 2 svs pb-1000's, and powered by a denon x4100w. If anyone has some insight on what route I should take, I would be much obliged.
xpertpredator is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off