Tekton Impact and Double Impact - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
You guys are funny...I said I'd stay out of this thread, but...seriously...if you think that this design can outperform something that is just better engineered generally (and, by the looks of it, that wouldn't be hard to do) then you're all crazy. It may sound great to y'all, but I highly doubt it measures well. The fact that you believe any detractors in this thread must just suffer from envy is insane, to me! I could buy these speakers 5x over for what I paid for my pair of fronts. If I wanted them, I could have them tomorrow and not blink. You think that makes me envious? If I thought they had a prayer to stand up to the speakers I own, I'd buy them -- I don't! And I'm sure as heck not going to deal with the inconvenience of sending them back if and when they fail to impress, not without something giving me hope that they'd stay (e.g. a better design or measurements proving that this wacky tweeter arrangement doesn't perform as horribly as it appears it'd measure, especially off-axis).

So, listen, if you like your speakers, GREAT! I'm very happy for you! But, don't get all high-and-mighty thinking that the critics in this thread are somehow scared, worried, or envious of you! Some of these critics design speakers, some have read a thing or two about speaker design, and others just want to see how they perform on paper without before buying. Regardless, I am pretty confident that if they were measured, their off-axis performance would be terrible and, for me, that is an important measurement for excellent performance. If Tekton wants me to consider them, they'd surprise me and measure them to prove otherwise instead of using a silly patent that isn't going to sway me or anyone who has a clue regarding speaker design.

I respect your opinion..gotta say..you prob the first person on planet earth who cares MORE about numbers than the actual sound. I mean...what if we didnt have any measurement equipment?? we would only have our ears to judge. in that case my friend you would be the only person with out a pair of speakers. Enjoy your numbers....I will enjoy my speakers!!!
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post #182 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I respect your opinion..gotta say..you prob the first person on planet earth who cares MORE about numbers than the actual sound...
There are a lot of people that are only interested in the numbers, it's very common. I remember a guy that went down all the specs on his motorcycle regurgitating each one and how it was better than the bike I rode. His mind could not process that he was slower than me. I'm sure he is still convinced on his bike's superiority even after his public flogging. People are wired different, some often ignoring the obvious.

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post #183 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I respect your opinion..gotta say..you prob the first person on planet earth who cares MORE about numbers than the actual sound. I mean...what if we didnt have any measurement equipment?? we would only have our ears to judge. in that case my friend you would be the only person with out a pair of speakers. Enjoy your numbers....I will enjoy my speakers!!!
DWs last speakers he was pretty high on were from a small company called Seaton Sound. I can't seem to find any measurements on them.. Maybe they exist but I can't find em. Not knocking the speakers at all, have heard very good things about them and considered them at one point.
How do you know the DI is not "well engineered", how do you know they would measure bad, how do you know the DIs don't have a prayer of standing up to your 5x the cost speakers? The answer is you don't. Just because someone is doing something differently than everyone else does not mean it's wrong and you can speculate all you want about the sound but the fact is you haven't heard them. Not one person I am aware of that has heard the DI has disliked them and most are floored by them.
At some point I believe that someone will review the DIs with measurements. I bet you they will measure fairly well. At least for frequency linearity when I run pink noise and measure with audio tools they are the flattest I have seen in my imperfect room. I use no EQ and they sound very very balanced.
So don't get "all high and mighty" on your JBL M2s.
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post #184 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 01:55 PM
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DW sounds like it makes you a little angry that people like the DIs?. Rather strange. We are all just crazy a** fools! Haha ?
I am very curious what magical speakers you have?
I'm not angry, methinks you're projecting. I think I said it twice in the post that I'm happy for anyone that has the speakers and enjoys them! But, given what I know about speaker design, and what I see in these speakers, I won't waste my time with them unless I see something (measurements) that proves me wrong.

As for my "magical" speakers, there's nothing "magic" about them. They are designed to have excellent off-axis response and controlled directivity by a company with more R&D money than Tekton will ever have. You can search my posts if you want to find out what they are, it's not really relevant here.
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Since you're rolling in the dough, get the speakers and if they live up to your disappointment level, just have one of your servants send them back for you.
I don't have servants at the moment, but...say I'm looking to hire, what's your hourly rate?
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I respect your opinion..gotta say..you prob the first person on planet earth who cares MORE about numbers than the actual sound. I mean...what if we didnt have any measurement equipment?? we would only have our ears to judge. in that case my friend you would be the only person with out a pair of speakers. Enjoy your numbers....I will enjoy my speakers!!!
I don't necessarily care more about measurements, but for those who know what they mean, they can be a pretty good indicator how a speaker will perform. There are also studies that statistically correlate listener preference to certain measurements.

Moreover, do you think that designing a serious spaces does not require data (measurements) for the speakers? You think when, say, Danley designs sound reinforcement for a venue they just wing it without any data about their speakers (e.g. their coverage patterns and such)? You think when the Erskine group designs a high-end theater they spec speakers from which they have no data? In fact, I believe they highly favor speakers for which they have polar plots so they can position them and put the seating within their sweet spot and design the acoustic treatment around it!

Further, if we didn't have any measurement equipment, then we wouldn't have great speakers because the designers of those speakers use measurement equipment. Maybe you don't...but they sure as heck do! So, that's sort of a non sequitur. A designer that uses only their ears is certainly not someone I want to buy a speaker from! Especially since they are using their ears in their room, not mine. Measurements can tell you how a speaker will fair across different listening environments as well.

Finally, I'm not saying these can't sound good -- I've never heard them and that's such a personal opinion, anyway. However, since it's not like there's a dealer around from whom to buy and no one around me has them to hear, the only thing I will use to determine whether they are worth my time is measurements. This is more important to me for this speaker which, from what I know about speaker design, doesn't look like it'll measure well, unfortunately.

Having said all that -- certainly I didn't buy my current speakers (or any of them, for that matter) based on measurements alone. Listening to them with my own ears was the deciding factor. However, it doesn't surprise me that the pair I've liked the best (my current pair) is the pair that measures the best.
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post #185 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 01:59 PM
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[QUOTE=DreamWarrior;52742337

I don't have servants at the moment, but...say I'm looking to hire, what's your hourly rate?

[/QUOTE]

I'd work for beer.

Has to be the good stuff though.
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post #186 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
There are a lot of people that are only interested in the numbers, it's very common. I remember a guy that went down all the specs on his motorcycle regurgitating each one and how it was better than the bike I rode. His mind could not process that he was slower than me. I'm sure he is still convinced on his bike's superiority even after his public flogging. People are wired different, some often ignoring the obvious.
Ha ha, as a motorcycle rider and being on several forums over the years, (currently only on BARF), motorcyclists are far worse than the AVS crowd.

No moto or speaker is perfect, let alone perfect for everybody and, guess what, some motorcyclists love their bikes despite their flaws/limitations.

Almost 10 years ago I sold a motorcycle I had improved dramatically over the years most significantly how it handled and fueled investing in Ohlins suspension, Power Commander etc to improve its flaws.

It was a great bike, (TL1000S), capable of speeds well over 150 mph with its 130hp and handled very capably.

Thing is I sold it after buying a 35hp DRZ400SM which was simply a better bike for riding conditions here in Sonoma County and the TL simply sat unridden.

Kind of thinking the same thing with my sub.

The one I have now had a $4000+ MSRP when new but the amp is on its second repair after the first one lasted an hour and if the amp fix doesn't stick I'm replacing it with a $1000 Rhythmik as it will actually be a better fit for my requirements.

But yeah, on the moto forums "mine's better than yours" is sometimes a huge issue for riders that can't ride their way out of a paper bag!
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post #187 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 02:17 PM
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DWs last speakers he was pretty high on were from a small company called Seaton Sound. I can't seem to find any measurements on them.. Maybe they exist but I can't find em. Not knocking the speakers at all, have heard very good things about them and considered them at one point.
Indeed, and before that, from Paradigm. You're right, neither of those had measurements to back up their sound. I enjoyed the sound from them both. But, as I posted above, I listened to them both before buying them, and that's not an option (at the moment) with these speakers. I would never buy them without hearing them unless I had measured proof that they were worth my time. Especially not when they don't appear to be designed in a normal fashion.

edit: and, actually, there are measurements for the Catalysts, you can find them here on Seaton's forum; though, polar plots would be useful, too. That said, it'd be disingenuous of me to state that I saw this before I heard and bought them. But, that's not to say I haven't evolved my research and buying habits -- I am allowed to do that, right?
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How do you know the DI is not "well engineered", how do you know they would measure bad, how do you know the DIs don't have a prayer of standing up to your 5x the cost speakers? The answer is you don't. Just because someone is doing something differently than everyone else does not mean it's wrong and you can speculate all you want about the sound but the fact is you haven't heard them.
I suppose I don't know for sure it's not well engineered. However, when a company deviates so seriously from the norms with that suspicious tweeter array and puts out a patent that's absurd to stand their designs against...well...what can I say, it puts me off and makes me ask for proof.

That said, my speculations come with at least a modicum of information about speaker design. You can discount that if you wish, but at least one other forum member (who does design speakers) agrees that there's something not-quite-right about this design.
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Not one person I am aware of that has heard the DI has disliked them and most are floored by them.
At some point I believe that someone will review the DIs with measurements. I bet you they will measure fairly well. At least for frequency linearity when I run pink noise and measure with audio tools they are the flattest I have seen in my imperfect room. I use no EQ and they sound very very balanced.
That great...people like speakers that sound like crap, to me, all the time. For example, I detest B&W's "signature sound", but lots of people love it. Everyone's going to select the proper speaker for their own taste. Fine by me! I've said it several times, if you have these and love them, AWESOME! I'm VERY HAPPY for you. I'm not here to urinate on your parade.

And you can feel free to post those measurements of the speakers in your room if you'd like.
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So don't get "all high and mighty" on your JBL M2s.
I didn't even post the speakers I owned in this thread (not even in the post above when indirectly asked to). You're the first one to mention them. But, since you bring it up, I can absolutely guarantee you that the M2s will thoroughly trounce these things!

But, this thread isn't about the M2s, it's about the DI's. As such, I'm free to point out that their manufacturer uses an absurd patent to stand up a speaker that looks like it would have terrible comb filtering in the high frequency range and, thusly, atrocious off-axis response and possibly even poor on-axis as well. How audible that is to you and how it affects your enjoyment of them is moot if you like them. But, don't expect me not to at least mention that it's a possibility that a buyer should be cautious of. Especially when there are speakers costing just as much (or less) that are not going to suffer from those issues due to their more standard design.
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I'd work for beer.

Has to be the good stuff though.
I have craft beers aplenty, that work? I'll also have some great speakers for you to listen to , unfortunately for this thread, they aren't the DIs.

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post #188 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 02:40 PM
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...I have craft beers aplenty, that work?
Party at DreamWarrior's house, woo hoo!
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post #189 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 06:10 PM
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From D dub Ya.. sorry on the I phone and can't er to work right. Beloooow.
"I didn't even post the speakers I owned in this thread (not even in the post above when indirectly asked to). You're the first one to mention them. But, since you bring it up, I can absolutely guarantee you that the M2s will thoroughly trounce these things!"

Wow what are you five ? Absolutely trounce em........ yeah dude. I've owned 3 speakers in my life..... that's you! U Should maybe listen a little more and post a little less about things you know very little about like speaker design.
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post #190 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 08:24 PM
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[QUOTE=DreamWarrior;52742337]
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Originally Posted by Mofojo View Post
DW sounds like it makes you a little angry that people like the DIs?. Rather strange. We are all just crazy a** fools! Haha ?
I am very curious what magical speakers you have?
I'm not angry, methinks you're projecting. I think I said it twice in the post that I'm happy for anyone that has the speakers and enjoys them! But, given what I know about speaker design, and what I see in these speakers, I won't waste my time with them unless I see something (measurements) that proves me wrong.

As for my "magical" speakers, there's nothing "magic" about them. They are designed to have excellent off-axis response and controlled directivity by a company with more R&D money than Tekton will ever have. You can search my posts if you want to find out what they are, it's not really relevant here.
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Since you're rolling in the dough, get the speakers and if they live up to your disappointment level, just have one of your servants send them back for you.
I don't have servants at the moment, but...say I'm looking to hire, what's your hourly rate?
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I respect your opinion..gotta say..you prob the first person on planet earth who cares MORE about numbers than the actual sound. I mean...what if we didnt have any measurement equipment?? we would only have our ears to judge. in that case my friend you would be the only person with out a pair of speakers. Enjoy your numbers....I will enjoy my speakers!!!
I don't necessarily care more about measurements, but for those who know what they mean, they can be a pretty good indicator how a speaker will perform. There are also studies that statistically correlate listener preference to certain measurements.

Moreover, do you think that designing a serious spaces does not require data (measurements) for the speakers? You think when, say, Danley designs sound reinforcement for a venue they just wing it without any data about their speakers (e.g. their coverage patterns and such)? You think when the Erskine group designs a high-end theater they spec speakers from which they have no data? In fact, I believe they highly favor speakers for which they have polar plots so they can position them and put the seating within their sweet spot and design the acoustic treatment around it!

Further, if we didn't have any measurement equipment, then we wouldn't have great speakers because the designers of those speakers use measurement equipment. Maybe you don't...but they sure as heck do! So, that's sort of a non sequitur. A designer that uses only their ears is certainly not someone I want to buy a speaker from! Especially since they are using their ears in their room, not mine. Measurements can tell you how a speaker will fair across different listening environments as well.

Finally, I'm not saying these can't sound good -- I've never heard them and that's such a personal opinion, anyway. However, since it's not like there's a dealer around from whom to buy and no one around me has them to hear, the only thing I will use to determine whether they are worth my time is measurements. This is more important to me for this speaker which, from what I know about speaker design, doesn't look like it'll measure well, unfortunately.

Having said all that -- certainly I didn't buy my current speakers (or any of them, for that matter) based on measurements alone. Listening to them with my own ears was the deciding factor. However, it doesn't surprise me that the pair I've liked the best (my current pair) is the pair that measures the best.[/QUOTE

For me........ just me......only me.....absolutly me, I dont care about numbers....Im glad the designer used them to build the speakers, if he did. .again...I live in vegas and go to CES high end audio every single year...and heard all kind of speakers..from 2k to almost 1,000,000. And for what I was willing to pay for a pair of speakers ( 15k ) nothing sounded as good as the DI's. Not for under 25k. At this point I think it is abosultly not necesary to spend all that money to get very very minimal improvement in sound. but to each its own. No...the DI are not perfect, they are not the best speaker ever build....But did anyone told they are 3k? yes 3k ...again I repeat 3k. one 3 and three 0. And they give you 8X the performance from anything around their price. Your M2's are good, I heard them once in a cinema set up and the room and set up was complety different than mine. One thing I will tell you..If they are better they are for sure not 17,000 times better. But they do retail 17k more than the DI's with out giving you even 2 times the performance the DI's do. I think I would remember them if they did.
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post #191 of 960 Old 05-04-2017, 11:02 PM
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Wow what are you five ? Absolutely trounce em........ yeah dude. I've owned 3 speakers in my life..... that's you! U Should maybe listen a little more and post a little less about things you know very little about like speaker design.
Guess I'm the richest 5-year old you know, huh? And probably the most informed about speaker design. Regardless, if this is what the conversation is going to devolve into, I'd prefer we just put one another on ignore.

That said, I have listened to a lot more speakers than I've owned. The reason I've owned so few speakers is because I don't upgrade until I feel an absolute need to. I would say each of my upgrades has been considerable. Do I feel each upgrade has increased my performance commensurate the price increase? Probably not, with the largest jump being between my Paradigms and the Seatons. However, I can be pretty confident without ever hearing them that these Tekton's would be a downgrade from where I am now. If you disagree, great, it really doesn't matter to me.

What we cannot disagree on is the facts regarding these speakers. Those are:

1) The patent they are "based on" (or at least is used as marketing to push their sales) is complete and utter rubbish. Anyone who comprehends the physics of sound reproduction in instruments and speakers will attest to it.

2) The tweeter configuration is not going to be simple (or cheap, if you value the time it'll take to tweak a network) to get correct. Further, there are much simpler alignments that are known to perform well and will very likely outperform this arrangement, especially given the previous statement. Tekton even uses these arrangements in some of their other speakers. I'd consider any of them over these due to this fact.

These two facts dissuade me from considering these a serious speaker. Moreover, if you really want to get into Tekton's previous practices, the company as a whole is not someone I'd deal with. They may have become better since their Pendragon days, but I can remember a lot of issues back then. This is not helped by their pushing pseudo-science to sell their wares.

Calling me a five year old doesn't dismiss any of this. And the fact that this is the retort you resort to tells me a lot about you and your ability to have a rational and reasonable conversation like an adult. Despite this, I still hope you enjoy your speakers, .
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For me........ just me......only me.....absolutly me, I dont care about numbers....Im glad the designer used them to build the speakers, if he did. .again...I live in vegas and go to CES high end audio every single year...and heard all kind of speakers..from 2k to almost 1,000,000. And for what I was willing to pay for a pair of speakers ( 15k ) nothing sounded as good as the DI's. Not for under 25k. At this point I think it is abosultly not necesary to spend all that money to get very very minimal improvement in sound. but to each its own. No...the DI are not perfect, they are not the best speaker ever build....But did anyone told they are 3k? yes 3k ...again I repeat 3k. one 3 and three 0. And they give you 8X the performance from anything around their price. Your M2's are good, I heard them once in a cinema set up and the room and set up was complety different than mine. One thing I will tell you..If they are better they are for sure not 17,000 times better. But they do retail 17k more than the DI's with out giving you even 2 times the performance the DI's do. I think I would remember them if they did.
This thread should not be a pissing match between these two speakers. But, I will say the M2s don't have to be 17,000 times better, because they don't cost 17,000x the cost -- that'd make them over $50 million. But, let's not pick on your math, typo, or simple mis-speak, whatever it was.

At the end of the day, I doubt anyone's going to cross-shop these two speakers, so there's little point to this discussion, which is why I didn't bring it up. When @Mofojo did...well, I suppose I should have just left it alone. I have no need to defend my speakers...just as you have no need to defend yours. If they are what floats your boat (how many times do I have to say this) I'm truly happy.

That said, if I had only a $3k budget, I'd look at something from DIYSG using the SEOS horn and pay someone to help me finish the cabinet nicely -- may even save money. If one is looking for value in that budget-space, that's where I'd recommend a person go. Given what I know of DIYSG's offerings, I'd say their designs are better, too.

I hate to keep piling it on these speakers...and I'm sure it's frustrating because I haven't heard them and I'm knocking them, but I think anyone having a modicum of technical background and ability to comprehend the physics of sound reproduction would agree that there is a lot that is possibly (and statistically likely) to be wrong with these. For example, I would want to see some data to prove that the quintessential issues of using a tweeter array as the DI's do were, indeed, acknowledged and mitigated by the designer. A completely inane patent just ain't gonna do it.

Further, if one reads the patent then believes, as I can only assume Tekton wishes them to, that they used tons of tweeters (each having, I suppose different moving masses (though, they don't)) to "literally align the moving mass of speaker cones to the harmonic spectra of the musical instruments being played" then I have a bridge to sell you. And this sort of pseudo-science bull crap isn't going to be left to stand, at least not by me, in a forum whose purpose is to promote the science of audio visual equipment!

To pile on some more -- Can I get the crossover points for their "unique 4-way" design? It intrigues me because there are two sub-drivers, two midranges, and that odd tweeter array. Which of those is crossed the 4-th way?

Hopefully not the two mids, as they are in a d'appolito array (though probably spaced too far apart given the huge pentagon of tweeters in between, but let's ignore that). In that arrangement, the speakers should not be crossed over differently.

Maybe the two-subs? Though, they appear to be the same exact speaker, so...I don't see why they'd bother.

I guess maybe some of the tweeters in that tweeter array could be crossed as super-tweeters...that'd be the least worse offender.

Perhaps maybe it's just a 3-way, but "unique 4-way" sounds better -- I mean, it's unique! Not unique enough to name the x-over points, I guess. At least most other manufacturer's give us that.

Oh, and let's pile it on some more -- if they are only using 4-ways, there is NO WAY each tweeter is producing a different frequency (so that some unnamed person in this thread heard they do means there was, indeed, comb filtering, which is messy and sounds like crap). Plus, there are a whole lot more than 4 notes, and lots more than 4 different moving masses involved in instruments (whose moving mass can even be measured). This is true even if we consider strings on an acoustic guitar; of course we must discount that the strings alone on an acoustic guitar aren't responsible for all its sound, and further ignore that any of its sound coming to you through your speaker was picked up by a microphone, possibly just one of them, with a single moving mass of its own -- but...hey...why should those stupid details matter? But, hey, let's just say that it all matters and some magical crossover could extract out each individual guitar string and send it to a speaker whose moving mass is tweaked just for it, there wouldn't be enough ways in this speaker to do it, because you'd need at least 5 for a guitar, right...right?

Suffice to say, there's a CRAP TON of BS surrounding this speaker, so much so, that I don't really even WANT to listen to it, because even if it's lucky enough to sound good, I still wouldn't support that sort of misleading pseudo-scientific junk.

Was this post honest enough for you? I hope so, because I'm done wasting my time in this thread. And the only reason I bothered to was because I feel it necessary to correct people when they are obviously wrong -- in this case, that's an obviously crazy patent by a misleading designer, putting out a speaker that maybe sounds OK, but certainly should not be held up next to speakers that are designed with real science!
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post #192 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 06:11 AM
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I said nothing about you being rich. Don't know don't care. I don't think there is anything wrong with buying something that costs more. The DI is the cheapest speaker I've owned since my Studio 100 v.2 back in 2000ish. I would buy something more expensive if I liked them better. I looked at the JBL 1400 Array about a year ago. Very nice speaker. Do I like the DI better and think most people would . Yup.
Your the one that provoked saying things like trounce, your all crazy etc. if you used words like "opinion" instead of "guarantee" "trounce" and "crazy". You would sound a little less pompous.
Maybe it's Wierd Science da da da Dada da
No really sure what you agenda is here.
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post #193 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 07:23 AM
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No really sure what you agenda is here.
The intent was clear from his technically detailed response. If someone still doesn't like the content of that message or doesn't have the technical wherewithal to counter the message, it can be more comforting to dismiss it merely as an "agenda", otherwise cognitive dissonance may result.
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post #194 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 10:05 AM
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DW
I said nothing about you being rich. Don't know don't care. I don't think there is anything wrong with buying something that costs more. The DI is the cheapest speaker I've owned since my Studio 100 v.2 back in 2000ish. I would buy something more expensive if I liked them better. I looked at the JBL 1400 Array about a year ago. Very nice speaker. Do I like the DI better and think most people would . Yup.
Your the one that provoked saying things like trounce, your all crazy etc. if you used words like "opinion" instead of "guarantee" "trounce" and "crazy". You would sound a little less pompous.
Maybe it's Wierd Science da da da Dada da
No really sure what you agenda is here.
I'll agree, maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully...but when people say that "us detractors" (me being one of them) are envious or somehow scared our precious high-dollar speakers will be matched by these Tektons and imply that's the reason we're posting in here it hits a nerve. The result is my tone changes, possibly for the worse. But, my "agenda" is simply to inform people. You know, to put a little science in a forum whose main purpose is relaying scientific information.

That said, for the last time, enjoy your speakers.

If anyone else comes here and reads my posts, I hope they can at least utilize the information therein to form an informed opinion regarding whether or not Tekton's DI speakers employ some sort of voodoo magic fairy dust that no other speaker does, as Tekton's marketing splodge would imply. I hope they realize they do not, this despite a patent whose purpose is to con them otherwise.

Moreover, I hope they are compelled to listen first (in their own room if possible) before taking the plunge because there's a very good chance that these speakers do not play well due to their likely poor off-axis response. This will make them very room and position dependent -- I'd get them as far away from any hard surfaces as possible and / or treat their reflection points with absorption to mitigate this design flaw. But, if they listen and like them then more power to them; I hope they order and get their speakers (and grills, lol) in a timely fashion with excellent quality control (two things I hope Tekton has improved on since their early days)!

And now, back to your regularly scheduled program of new users fawning all over these speakers...and, since you've "made me" go there, we can all wonder what their agendas are.
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post #195 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 10:22 AM
 
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No really sure what you agenda is here.
Or yours, since you haven't posted in any threads other than this one.
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post #196 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 10:25 AM
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For anyone interested I just did a semi scientific test of the frequency response of the DI. I've taken 75db pink noise and did an fft measurement at 1/3 octave in between center of the speakers from 10 ft away using no eq. From 30hz to 10khz there is no more than a 5db deviation anywhere. I would say for an average room this is not too shabby. This is the best I have achieved in my room from any speaker including KEF reference, Paradigm Signature, which are some of the best measuring speakers in existence according to Stereophile measurements.
I then took the same measurement 10ft back off about 1ft past the outside of the R and L speaker. The measurement looked basically exactly the same. Would be happy to do it again and take screen shots of measurement if anyone is interested.
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post #197 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 12:33 PM
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Wow what are you five ? Absolutely trounce em........ yeah dude. I've owned 3 speakers in my life..... that's you! U Should maybe listen a little more and post a little less about things you know very little about like speaker design.
Guess I'm the richest 5-year old you know, huh? And probably the most informed about speaker design. Regardless, if this is what the conversation is going to devolve into, I'd prefer we just put one another on ignore.

That said, I have listened to a lot more speakers than I've owned. The reason I've owned so few speakers is because I don't upgrade until I feel an absolute need to. I would say each of my upgrades has been considerable. Do I feel each upgrade has increased my performance commensurate the price increase? Probably not, with the largest jump being between my Paradigms and the Seatons. However, I can be pretty confident without ever hearing them that these Tekton's would be a downgrade from where I am now. If you disagree, great, it really doesn't matter to me.

What we cannot disagree on is the facts regarding these speakers. Those are:

1) The patent they are "based on" (or at least is used as marketing to push their sales) is complete and utter rubbish. Anyone who comprehends the physics of sound reproduction in instruments and speakers will attest to it.

2) The tweeter configuration is not going to be simple (or cheap, if you value the time it'll take to tweak a network) to get correct. Further, there are much simpler alignments that are known to perform well and will very likely outperform this arrangement, especially given the previous statement. Tekton even uses these arrangements in some of their other speakers. I'd consider any of them over these due to this fact.

These two facts dissuade me from considering these a serious speaker. Moreover, if you really want to get into Tekton's previous practices, the company as a whole is not someone I'd deal with. They may have become better since their Pendragon days, but I can remember a lot of issues back then. This is not helped by their pushing pseudo-science to sell their wares.

Calling me a five year old doesn't dismiss any of this. And the fact that this is the retort you resort to tells me a lot about you and your ability to have a rational and reasonable conversation like an adult. Despite this, I still hope you enjoy your speakers, .
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For me........ just me......only me.....absolutly me, I dont care about numbers....Im glad the designer used them to build the speakers, if he did. .again...I live in vegas and go to CES high end audio every single year...and heard all kind of speakers..from 2k to almost 1,000,000. And for what I was willing to pay for a pair of speakers ( 15k ) nothing sounded as good as the DI's. Not for under 25k. At this point I think it is abosultly not necesary to spend all that money to get very very minimal improvement in sound. but to each its own. No...the DI are not perfect, they are not the best speaker ever build....But did anyone told they are 3k? yes 3k ...again I repeat 3k. one 3 and three 0. And they give you 8X the performance from anything around their price. Your M2's are good, I heard them once in a cinema set up and the room and set up was complety different than mine. One thing I will tell you..If they are better they are for sure not 17,000 times better. But they do retail 17k more than the DI's with out giving you even 2 times the performance the DI's do. I think I would remember them if they did.
This thread should not be a pissing match between these two speakers. But, I will say the M2s don't have to be 17,000 times better, because they don't cost 17,000x the cost -- that'd make them over $50 million. But, let's not pick on your math, typo, or simple mis-speak, whatever it was.

At the end of the day, I doubt anyone's going to cross-shop these two speakers, so there's little point to this discussion, which is why I didn't bring it up. When @Mofojo did...well, I suppose I should have just left it alone. I have no need to defend my speakers...just as you have no need to defend yours. If they are what floats your boat (how many times do I have to say this) I'm truly happy.

That said, if I had only a $3k budget, I'd look at something from DIYSG using the SEOS horn and pay someone to help me finish the cabinet nicely -- may even save money. If one is looking for value in that budget-space, that's where I'd recommend a person go. Given what I know of DIYSG's offerings, I'd say their designs are better, too.

I hate to keep piling it on these speakers...and I'm sure it's frustrating because I haven't heard them and I'm knocking them, but I think anyone having a modicum of technical background and ability to comprehend the physics of sound reproduction would agree that there is a lot that is possibly (and statistically likely) to be wrong with these. For example, I would want to see some data to prove that the quintessential issues of using a tweeter array as the DI's do were, indeed, acknowledged and mitigated by the designer. A completely inane patent just ain't gonna do it.

Further, if one reads the patent then believes, as I can only assume Tekton wishes them to, that they used tons of tweeters (each having, I suppose different moving masses (though, they don't)) to "literally align the moving mass of speaker cones to the harmonic spectra of the musical instruments being played" then I have a bridge to sell you. And this sort of pseudo-science bull crap isn't going to be left to stand, at least not by me, in a forum whose purpose is to promote the science of audio visual equipment!

To pile on some more -- Can I get the crossover points for their "unique 4-way" design? It intrigues me because there are two sub-drivers, two midranges, and that odd tweeter array. Which of those is crossed the 4-th way?

Hopefully not the two mids, as they are in a d'appolito array (though probably spaced too far apart given the huge pentagon of tweeters in between, but let's ignore that). In that arrangement, the speakers should not be crossed over differently.

Maybe the two-subs? Though, they appear to be the same exact speaker, so...I don't see why they'd bother.

I guess maybe some of the tweeters in that tweeter array could be crossed as super-tweeters...that'd be the least worse offender.

Perhaps maybe it's just a 3-way, but "unique 4-way" sounds better -- I mean, it's unique! Not unique enough to name the x-over points, I guess. At least most other manufacturer's give us that.

Oh, and let's pile it on some more -- if they are only using 4-ways, there is NO WAY each tweeter is producing a different frequency (so that some unnamed person in this thread heard they do means there was, indeed, comb filtering, which is messy and sounds like crap). Plus, there are a whole lot more than 4 notes, and lots more than 4 different moving masses involved in instruments (whose moving mass can even be measured). This is true even if we consider strings on an acoustic guitar; of course we must discount that the strings alone on an acoustic guitar aren't responsible for all its sound, and further ignore that any of its sound coming to you through your speaker was picked up by a microphone, possibly just one of them, with a single moving mass of its own -- but...hey...why should those stupid details matter? But, hey, let's just say that it all matters and some magical crossover could extract out each individual guitar string and send it to a speaker whose moving mass is tweaked just for it, there wouldn't be enough ways in this speaker to do it, because you'd need at least 5 for a guitar, right...right?

Suffice to say, there's a CRAP TON of BS surrounding this speaker, so much so, that I don't really even WANT to listen to it, because even if it's lucky enough to sound good, I still wouldn't support that sort of misleading pseudo-scientific junk.

Was this post honest enough for you? I hope so, because I'm done wasting my time in this thread. And the only reason I bothered to was because I feel it necessary to correct people when they are obviously wrong -- in this case, that's an obviously crazy patent by a misleading designer, putting out a speaker that maybe sounds OK, but certainly should not be held up next to speakers that are designed with real science!
I wansnt trying to be litteral about the numbers. Was basically referring as performance per dollar. Guess you need exact numbers on examples too?? DW, I do not understand the patent...I dont understand the speaker design......I only understad It sounds amazing. I see you are more into specs rather than performance, thats fine. If you really think about it....the only way we could get better sound than what we already had, is by creating something new...making speakers look amazing and over charging for them was never going to redifine the speaker industry. we needed someone crazy enough to stand up and say "Im going to make somethig different, even if no one understand what the heck Im doing" This industry is a monster.....its mean and its controlled by big spenders and big names brands...Ive seen amazing reviewers quit because they got such a hard time from people ofending them because they said that a 1k amp well build can sound like a 10k one. Its in the human nature that if I spent 20k on my speakers there is not way a 3k pair can do anything similar...or that a 90k benz is a much better build than a 250,000 ferrari. But I am bere to tell you it is.Seen it with my own eyes. FIY...id still choose the ferrari, just looks cooler and
its faster. point is....most of the technology that runs our world we did not understand at first. I just think Eric should have hired a person that could explain his patent and technology better.
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post #198 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 12:42 PM
 
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I just think Eric should have hired a person that could explain his patent and technology better.
The patent is piffle. What it claims is nonsense, because the drivers he uses are off the shelf. What could use explanation is the filtering configuration, if any, used with the only part of the speaker that's the slightest bit out of the ordinary, the tweeter array. That would include polar charts that conclusively prove that it works as advertised.
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post #199 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 01:34 PM
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...I just think Eric should have hired a person that could explain his patent and technology better.
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The patent is piffle. What it claims is nonsense, because the drivers he uses are off the shelf. What could use explanation is the filtering configuration, if any, used with the only part of the speaker that's the slightest bit out of the ordinary, the tweeter array. That would include polar charts that conclusively prove that it works as advertised.
It would be nice but it doesn't change how the speaker sounds, that is the true litmus test and the early reports are very positive.
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post #200 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 06:47 PM
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It would be nice but it doesn't change how the speaker sounds, that is the true litmus test and the early reports are very positive.
Can we get back to actual users who have these speakers and their experiences?

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post #201 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 07:25 PM
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I own the Tekton Double Impacts, but why would I want to post anything about my actual impressions with these speakers, or my impressions in context to, and in comparison of, 20 plus years of using a wide variety of speakers, across a wide price range, in 2 channel and HT settings?

It seems that this thread is a playground for those who:

Question the lack of measurements.

Or,

Question a patent.

Or,

Question the developer's approach to marketing.

Or

Are unable to make a simple point regarding each of the above and move on.



All this, without having actual experience with the Double Impacts or Impact.

If the moderators are willing to clean this thread up, and enforce a focus on actual impressions, and encourage comity, I will be happy to reconsider.

For those AVS members who are actually interested in and are serious about knowing more about these speakers, feel free to PM me.
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post #202 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 08:31 PM
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I have heard these l speakers, and came away impressed, and I'm not easily impressed. They disappear in a room, and seem to check all the right boxes for speaker performance: great high and low end, soundstaging, resolution, dynamic character, high efficiency, and that rare, intangible something that is able to re create a live experience in a room.
I will concede some of the marketing. Is questionable, but that doesn't mean they're not great speakers. Off the shelf parts? I simply don't care: Eric Alexander has put them together in a way that produces undeniably fantastic results, it's really tough to find someone WHO HAS ACTUALLY HEARD THEM and doesn't love them. I tend to lean more to the research, measurable performance side of things, but I have a pair of good ears and I know what good sound is and I heard it with these. Alexander has been designing speakers for 30+ years, he's no hack. Others are certainly free to pursue other speakers, but i think it's bad form to come on a speaker forum and trash the featured speakers without even hearing them.


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post #203 of 960 Old 05-05-2017, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by davidrds View Post
I own the Tekton Double Impacts, but why would I want to post anything about my actual impressions with these speakers, or my impressions in context to, and in comparison of, 20 plus years of using a wide variety of speakers, across a wide price range, in 2 channel and HT settings?

It seems that this thread is a playground for those who:

Question the lack of measurements.

Or,

Question a patent.

Or,

Question the developer's approach to marketing.

Or

Are unable to make a simple point regarding each of the above and move on.



All this, without having actual experience with the Double Impacts or Impact.

If the moderators are willing to clean this thread up, and enforce a focus on actual impressions, and encourage comity, I will be happy to reconsider.

For those AVS members who are actually interested in and are serious about knowing more about these speakers, feel free to PM me.
I own pair number 00037,00038. These are just a steal at this price...and an amazing speaker at any price point. The midbass is the clear improvement over the amazing pendragons, also the highs are a bit more smooth. The bass is a bit heavier over the pendragons...some might like that some may not.I have them in a cinema set up....but do a lot of 2ch music listening also. After I put these in my room I can finally say I can sit back and just enjoy my set up....attached a pic of my set up with the projectlr screen hidden.
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post #204 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 01:14 AM
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I own pair number 00037,00038. These are just a steal at this price...and an amazing speaker at any price point. The midbass is the clear improvement over the amazing pendragons, also the highs are a bit more smooth. The bass is a bit heavier over the pendragons...some might like that some may not.I have them in a cinema set up....but do a lot of 2ch music listening also. After I put these in my room I can finally say I can sit back and just enjoy my set up....attached a pic of my set up with the projectlr screen hidden.
Hi canillo good looking setup! Are your DI's against or near the side walls? How wide is the dispersion or off axis sound and what speakers did you have before? Also what are you using for surrounds?

My home theater is Dolby atmos 7.2.4 with 4 in ceiling speakers. It sounds great when in sweet spot but doesn't have good wide sound stage. I'm looking for better clarity and wider dispersion for my front soundstage.

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post #205 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I own pair number 00037,00038. These are just a steal at this price...and an amazing speaker at any price point. The midbass is the clear improvement over the amazing pendragons, also the highs are a bit more smooth. The bass is a bit heavier over the pendragons...some might like that some may not.I have them in a cinema set up....but do a lot of 2ch music listening also. After I put these in my room I can finally say I can sit back and just enjoy my set up....attached a pic of my set up with the projectlr screen hidden.
Hi canillo good looking setup! Are your DI's against or near the side walls? How wide is the dispersion or off axis sound and what speakers did you have before? Also what are you using for surrounds?

My home theater is Dolby atmos 7.2.4 with 4 in ceiling speakers. It sounds great when in sweet spot but doesn't have good wide sound stage. I'm looking for better clarity and wider dispersion for my front soundstage.

room placement is restricited for me because of my projector screen. So these are 6inch from sides and 1.5 inch from back. Sound stage is HUGE. owned pendragon from same company. amazing speakers for 2k ...now DI , DI center and custom made 10inch surrounds. No atmos yet, Eric takes very long in delivering. so maybe will look at something else for atmos. Because of the driver size is almost certain this will provide huge sound stage anywhere they are placed. if HT duty is your priority then even the pendragon set up would be great...I feel in 2ch listening is where the DI outperform the pendragons. If you have any other qjestion just lwt me know ad I will share my experience with these.
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post #206 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 07:46 AM
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@canillo

That is a sweet looking setup!!!

Any particular reason the center is so low? And have you experimented with moving it up higher to better match the L/R speakers?

Also, your thoughts on going with a vertical-oriented center, vs horizontal?

Thanks.
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post #207 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 08:37 AM
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@canillo ...Any particular reason the center is so low?..
I'm guessing it's because the screen comes down pretty far.

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post #208 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 10:43 AM
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@canillo

That is a sweet looking setup!!!

Any particular reason the center is so low? And have you experimented with moving it up higher to better match the L/R speakers?

Also, your thoughts on going with a vertical-oriented center, vs horizontal?

Thanks.
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Quote:
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@canillo ...Any particular reason the center is so low?..
I'm guessing it's because the screen comes down pretty far.
That is one of the things I originally was worried about, because the DI are so tall I was worried center was going to be too low, the screen comes pretty low and its not AT , so vertical center wasnt an option, The screen still gives some space to put the horizontal center higher but before I did that I tilted the center up to be basically aiming straight at the listening hight and ran the auto set up from my processor. The results where sooo good,I did not even bothered to put it higher. I mean I honestly hear the voices coming directly from the middle of the screen, because the sound of the DI dissapears so well I dont really notice hight difference . Call me crazy but having the DI front set up is like having a front wall full of speakers side to side top to bottom, and separation of surround effects is very very noticible.Eventually when I build a bigher cinema room, I will have AT screen and will see if Eric sells me a single Double Impact Tower to have as center. Also will be able to give these babies thw space they deserve away from walls.
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post #209 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 11:25 AM
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That is one of the things I originally was worried about, because the DI are so tall I was worried center was going to be too low, the screen comes pretty low and its not AT , so vertical center wasnt an option, The screen still gives some space to put the horizontal center higher but before I did that I tilted the center up to be basically aiming straight at the listening hight and ran the auto set up from my processor. The results where sooo good,I did not even bothered to put it higher. I mean I honestly hear the voices coming directly from the middle of the screen, because the sound of the DI dissapears so well I dont really notice hight difference . Call me crazy but having the DI front set up is like having a front wall full of speakers side to side top to bottom, and separation of surround effects is very very noticible.Eventually when I build a bigher cinema room, I will have AT screen and will see if Eric sells me a single Double Impact Tower to have as center. Also will be able to give these babies thw space they deserve away from walls.
@canillo and @Russ69

I prefer leaving my queries open ended..find I get the best response that way. No directional bias. : )

I did assume that the screen was a factor and likely not audio transparent.

The center also did not appear to be tilted upwards, at least to my eyes in the photo you posted, canillo.

Your experience with the center is heartening. I picked up a Standout Designs console just prior to deciding on the Tektons. I purposely went with a very large center cabinet opening, but it turns out it is just shy height-wise for the full 7 tweeter center. The 3 tweeter version will fit. The DIs have been so good that I'm willing to mount a soon to be acquired 70" or 75" panel higher than I would normal consider ideal, to accommodate the 7 tweeter version of the center on the top surface of the console. The fact that you are happy with the center lower to the floor also gives me a second option of putting it on a stand in front of the console (not ideal, but doable).

Normally, I would have the bottom of the panel at 36 inches. If the DI 7-Center, horizontal, is on the console I would have to mount with the bottom at 39 inches. With speaker isolation devices, probably at 40 inches.

Thoughts?

And an additional question for @canillo : did you play with your horizontal center in an upright position, and if so, any advantages/disadvantages? (I cannot remember if Eric's vertical center/surround is configured differently than the center).

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post #210 of 960 Old 05-06-2017, 12:19 PM
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Came across some speakers from Sweden with a similar tweeter array.

http://www.xtzsound.us/shop/us/Speak...m6-left-center

Geoff A. J., California
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