Dayton Audio Shows Epique CBT24K Full-Range Line Array at AXPONA 2017 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 90 Old 09-04-2017, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Craig View Post
Hi I just read your posts in the Anthem thread. You'll need to be able to apply EQ above 8K in order for the treble balance to be correct. You also may need more equalization than the Anthem can provide in the bass, depending on where you want to cross to your subwoofers. Audyssey might be able to do that depending on the amount of EQ available.
I am in the process of building the kit. I have the cabinets all finished, just flat black. Just a little hint, that may or may not be correct. The instructions state to install the terminal cup FIRST, I have done this and it seems like it will be very hard to attach the leads. I would guess attaching it later, after you have done the wire harness, but before you install the drivers, making it easier to attach the wiring harness, and then screwing the terminal cup in.

Hopefully get them completed today.
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post #62 of 90 Old 09-05-2017, 04:12 AM
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I finished building the kit yesterday and had a couple of hours to listen to them.

I just painted the outside with satin black interior paint, good enough. Be sure to get the front baffle painted completely as there will be some of it showing after the speakers are mounted.

Don't follow the instructions, mount the terminal cup last. I am going to get some better quality binding posts, and solder that one connection from the speaker terminals to the wire harness.

It's a lot of screwing! But I wouldn't use a drill, it is easy to over tighten the screws and strip the MDF. Also need to be a bit careful with the slip on terminals, you can bend them easily.

Set them up using Audessey. No problems. It set the crossover at 150 hz, not unexpected. I have stereo subs.Haven't messed with placement much.

Sound at first was just a touch hard, I have read that these take a little break in, not much, it seemed to improve over the hour.

First up was Santana Caravanserai. I am hearing things I haven't heard before, trite but true. Lots of dynamics, high end is extended, soundstage is wide and VERY deep. The reviews are correct regarding floor bounce, Stand up acoustic bass had a different, more defined, and dynamic sound.

They play plenty loud for me, using and Odyssey Kismet power amp. Sensitivity seemed higher than I expected. I now will spend some time just listening to them, and then play with amps and preamps. I have an AVA U70 tube amp to try, and also my HK990 which should EQ them better than the Marantz AV pre-amp I have, we will see.

I like them.
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post #63 of 90 Old 09-07-2017, 07:09 AM
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Any tips for placement? Toe in or no? I have them toed in a little bit, and spaced wider than I had my previous speakers, seems to be good.
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post #64 of 90 Old 09-10-2017, 10:52 PM
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Do a search for omholt and CBT. He has done a lot of playing with CBT speakers. Rick Craig also has some great info on CBTs.


I talked to PE at Cedia. They mentioned that they are going to have a center and IIRC some surrounds to go along with these speakers. I think the ETA is second quarter next year. Unfortunately I didn't get to listen to them as they were dummies at the show.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #65 of 90 Old 09-11-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon wagstaff2 View Post
Any tips for placement? Toe in or no? I have them toed in a little bit, and spaced wider than I had my previous speakers, seems to be good.
It depends on personal preference but the drivers will start to beam in the top octaves. If you change the angle I would also adjust the EQ. Below the high frequencies the horizontal coverage will be wide with good fill in the center.

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post #66 of 90 Old 10-09-2017, 07:20 AM
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How to improve the kit?

I'm seriously considering getting the kit. I understand there are concerns about the enclosure. How would you go about improving it?

Thicken the sides with a sharp roundoff or even a bevel where they join the front baffle? (On the basis of shallow knowledge, I'm assuming the front baffle width is not really to be messed with.)

Reinforce the back with some glued on laminations or ribs?

Thanks, all.
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post #67 of 90 Old 10-09-2017, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemke View Post
I'm seriously considering getting the kit. I understand there are concerns about the enclosure. How would you go about improving it?

Thicken the sides with a sharp roundoff or even a bevel where they join the front baffle? (On the basis of shallow knowledge, I'm assuming the front baffle width is not really to be messed with.)

Reinforce the back with some glued on laminations or ribs?

Thanks, all.
You could possibly add some bracing and / or damping material. Adding thickness to the sides is probably not a good idea in terms of stability. Reducing the inside volume also may require a change in the EQ.

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post #68 of 90 Old 10-10-2017, 02:17 PM
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You could possibly add some bracing and / or damping material. Adding thickness to the sides is probably not a good idea in terms of stability. Reducing the inside volume also may require a change in the EQ.
Thanks, Rick.

Am I correct in thinking, then, that adding bracing and thereby reducing the interior volume would mean it'd be best to do EQ with something like Audyssey or Dirac rather than purchase the miniDSP?

I'm thinking I could do bracing with a handful of dowels running both front to back and side to side, with holes drilled for them to be pushed through and glued securely.
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post #69 of 90 Old 10-10-2017, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlemke View Post
Thanks, Rick.

Am I correct in thinking, then, that adding bracing and thereby reducing the interior volume would mean it'd be best to do EQ with something like Audyssey or Dirac rather than purchase the miniDSP?

I'm thinking I could do bracing with a handful of dowels running both front to back and side to side, with holes drilled for them to be pushed through and glued securely.
The MiniDSP unit is fine and can easily compensate for your cabinet changes. Dowels should work well.

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post #70 of 90 Old 11-03-2017, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
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The MiniDSP unit is fine and can easily compensate for your cabinet changes. Dowels should work well.
I put two tubes of silicone sealant into each cabinet, on the side walls, as damping material. Probably futile, but cheap. There is also sound deadening paint you can buy from Parts Express.

I would like to see what difference might be made by redoing the wiring harness with better wire, and higher quality resistors, but that would be a task to put them together.

One thing I did that DID make a difference was to get some better speaker binding posts. I bought some rhodium plated ones from E-bay from a supplier in China, for 40 bucks. The ones that come with the kit are very cheap. I was surprised at the slight, but significant difference in detail and dynamics.

These things sound great!
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post #71 of 90 Old 11-07-2017, 04:48 AM
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I put two tubes of silicone sealant into each cabinet, on the side walls, as damping material. Probably futile, but cheap. There is also sound deadening paint you can buy from Parts Express.

I would like to see what difference might be made by redoing the wiring harness with better wire, and higher quality resistors, but that would be a task to put them together.

One thing I did that DID make a difference was to get some better speaker binding posts. I bought some rhodium plated ones from E-bay from a supplier in China, for 40 bucks. The ones that come with the kit are very cheap. I was surprised at the slight, but significant difference in detail and dynamics.

These things sound great!
One other modification I did the other day was to get some foam weatherstripping, and run it along all the edges, and small pieces in between each driver.

This seems to have improved the focus a little bit.

It was cheap, less than 10 bucks, and easily removable. The glue isn't the greatest on that stuff, likely a good thing.
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post #72 of 90 Old 11-22-2017, 06:54 AM
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Dead thread, unfortunate. I am loving these speakers! I just replaced the Morrow SP5 with Morrow SP6 speaker cable, and they sound even better! Now I need to try to swing some MA6 to go between the pre-amp and amp.
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post #73 of 90 Old 11-29-2017, 02:43 PM
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I haven't thought about these in months, as I have taken a sabbatical from A/V. I enjoy hearing about these speakers.

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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post #74 of 90 Old 12-06-2017, 05:46 AM
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Well then..

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I haven't thought about these in months, as I have taken a sabbatical from A/V. I enjoy hearing about these speakers.
I am disappointed this thread is so dead, and that these speakers are getting so little attention.

I am enjoying these more than any other speaker I have owned. Paragon Volent VL2, Gallo Ref 3.5 and Raidho C1.2.

Really.

I love the presentation, the dynamics, detail and soundstage. Really fun to listen to.
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post #75 of 90 Old 12-06-2017, 06:04 AM
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Good to hear. Do you have any desire to upgrade to the more expensive model?

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post #76 of 90 Old 12-07-2017, 06:56 PM
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I am noodling around with the idea of using these for my next home theater build. Good idea? The dynamic nature of the Epique seem really suitable for that.

Floor space will be at a bit of a premium. Room is about 15x17.

In my HT fantasy, I'd partner these up with SVS-PC2000 (well, in the fantasy, 4000s, but y'know).
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post #77 of 90 Old 12-09-2017, 06:39 AM
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You mean the CBT 36?

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Good to hear. Do you have any desire to upgrade to the more expensive model?
The two way, with the digital crossover?

Not at all, though I haven't heard them. I really like the idea of having no crossover. I think that is part of where the dynamics come from. I don't like the idea of re-digitizing for the crossover, not that it would be audible, most likely. The kits are on sale right now for $1999.00.

I am very happy with the high end, but I am an old geezer now, so my hearing is not what it used to be. I didn't really appreciate the ribbon in the Raidhos. The soundstage is most enjoyable.

The biggest improvement came from the speaker binding posts, and when I switched from Morrow SP5 to SP6. That was a major improvement. I am still waiting to upgrade from MA4 to MA6.

One comment I want to make about the high end is that I find it helps a bit to set Audessy at "flat" rather than reference. Reference will roll off the top end a little bit.

The Odyssey kismet amp is a great match for these, I think.

For home theater keep in mind the crossover to the subs will be pretty high, I run mine at 150 hz, and I have a stereo pair of VMPS subs.

Last edited by simon wagstaff2; 12-09-2017 at 07:10 AM. Reason: add a comment
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post #78 of 90 Old 12-09-2017, 08:51 AM
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Yes, I was referring to the CBT36.

I concur with your desire to go full range instead of a crossover. It seems that the sound does change slightly when moving around the 2 way off axis. I would imagine that the full range would be more consistent off axis. I have a certain level of audio quality that I desire and don't necessarily need to go above that. I have listened to extremely expensive audio systems and hear the difference, but I am not sure I would care in normal situations.

Interestingly at Cedia, I found the Revel booth one of the best in shows even though they were using their lower end bookshelf models. They spent the time to make sure the audio was calibrated to sound good. Even though the JBL M2s are fantastic, I would be satisfied with the Revel system. I can't tell you how many demos I have heard from high end manufacturers that sounded like crap. I think this is why I would be happy with the Epique. They look like they would be pretty easy to integrate into any room and have good enough sound.

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post #79 of 90 Old 12-09-2017, 02:35 PM
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I have had a few speakers in my time, and I am enjoying these Epique more than any other speakers I have owned.
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post #80 of 90 Old 12-27-2017, 07:50 PM
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Any version of these with ribbon tweeters?
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post #81 of 90 Old 12-31-2017, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
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Any version of these with ribbon tweeters?
One of the appeals of this design is that they don't have a crossover, and use a single driver, albeit 24 of them per side.

That is the reason for the EQ requirement.
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post #82 of 90 Old 12-31-2017, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
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One of the appeals of this design is that they don't have a crossover, and use a single driver, albeit 24 of them per side.

That is the reason for the EQ requirement.
Sure. Not understanding why this is a response to a question about ribbon tweeters?
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post #83 of 90 Old 12-31-2017, 02:46 PM
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Ribbon tweeters will require a crossover. This design can be implemented with z crossover but it comes more complex. There's lots of information on the Parts Express website about the principles of the design. A good place to start.

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post #84 of 90 Old 12-31-2017, 09:44 PM
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Ribbon tweeters will require a crossover. This design can be implemented with z crossover but it comes more complex. There's lots of information on the Parts Express website about the principles of the design. A good place to start.
Thanks. Most of the design stuff goes over my head so I really appreciate it when someone can give that little bit of extra info.
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post #85 of 90 Old 01-02-2018, 03:09 PM
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Any version of these with ribbon tweeters?
I have used ribbons in CBT designs. They work well but depending on the parts used it can be expensive.

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post #86 of 90 Old 01-07-2018, 08:19 AM
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I have used ribbons in CBT designs. They work well but depending on the parts used it can be expensive.
Just going to mention that I have upgraded cabling to good effect. These speakers are fully able to resolve differences and improvements in cables.

Went from Morrow SP5 to Morrow SP6 speaker cable. I found a pair used for a good price so they were already broken in. This was pretty much a "wow" experience. Soundstage opened way up, inner detail increased. I was surprised at the difference, didn't expect that much at all.

Still just a touch of hardness, high end seemed a little limited, I figured due to the design of the speaker.

Just got a pair of MA6 to replace the MA4 that ran from my Marantz AV7702 MkII processor to my Odyssey Kismet amp.

These cables still need to be broken in, but I immediately noticed that inner detail was improved, soundstage expanded more, and for sure the high end has no hardness, and is much more extended, and transparent. Not quite the "wow" moment of the cables, but I know they will improve as they break in.

Can't comment on the bass, since I use two subs, crossed over at 150 hz.

Just wanted to mention the resolving power of these speakers. My cables now cost more than the speakers.
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post #87 of 90 Old 12-23-2018, 10:52 AM
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I built a pair of these earlier in the year though I just recently started to spend some time listening to them as main stereo speakers. I am quite impressed with the overall sound.


To me, the imaging, midrange clarity and detail, and dynamics are what they excel at. They also provide impressive soundstage characteristics and sound good all through the room. For not having tweeters, the highs sound fine to me and I owned speakers with Raal and scanspeak tweeters. Though those speakers had better highs, it’s not something that is very important to me anymore

I’m using a pair of Dayton Audio Ultimax subwoofers. I bought and built these a couple years ago. I think they work nicely with CBT24k speakers and the total cost for the setup is not that expensive compared to some other speakers I own or owned.

I like them better than the Tekton Impact Monitors I tried and sent back. Also I’ve owned some other good and more expensive speakers. Vapor Audio Cirrus, Odyssey Audio Lorelei, NHT 2.9 and still own Emerald Physics EP4.7 open baffle speakers.

I haven’t spent much time measuring and tweaking the sound other than the subwoofers. These can be tweaked to your tastes using the minidsp HD unit. For now I’m using the recommended settings from parts express.
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post #88 of 90 Old 12-23-2018, 06:10 PM
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Do you have Audyssey on your preamp/receiver? IIRC the S&V reviewer said it worked better than the minidsp.

PE had these at their Cedia booth. I spent about ten or so minutes listening to them with Arrow. We were impressed by their capabilities. I would love to hear the Gandalf CBTs that a DIYer did with Rick Craig's help. IIRC they used a tweeter with a 5" midrange.

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post #89 of 90 Old 12-23-2018, 11:11 PM
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I don’t have a receiver, I will check the response with REW and possibly tweak the EQ settings. You can store four different settings in the minidsp HD, plus real time adjustments make changes much easier to compare.

The CBT design is a very good approach, I think with a money no object approach using top quality drivers, crossover design and cabinet construction you would have something very special and impressive to say the least.

The CBT24K Kit is an inexpensive way to experience a line array design. Line arrays are expensive by design do to the multiple drvers needed. These were fun and easy to build plus they are lightweight which is also a plus in my book.
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post #90 of 90 Old 03-02-2019, 07:32 AM
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Bump - there are MiniDSP-HD files available on the PE and Dayton website. Anyone care to decipher them so I would be able to use these with one of the DSP devices I have available (among others: a 'non HD' MiniDSP)? Thanks!
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