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Are B&W overrated ? Overpriced?

27K views 94 replies 41 participants last post by  duckymomo 
#1 ·
I see so many other companies on this forum ; wharfdale to emptek- small brands , independent that people RAVE about - but I don't see that same kinda fire over B&W anymore - maybe since they moved production to Asia ?
I see people call them soft, muddy not exciting etc - is there truth here ?
Just wanted opinions


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#2 ·
Overrated, I think no...overpriced? yes, if you pay list price! My Def Tech SM450s IMHO, aren't worth 599/pr.but I got them for 200/pr, so good value.
 
#3 ·
BW have some great sounding speakers...I just liked the focal sound better...but cm10se were excellent.
 
#4 ·
I liked B&W also, but compared vs. Revel speakers and liked them better for almost the same price
 
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#5 ·
If the OP is thinking B&W, then I recommend that he check out some good used deals. Here is a set of the B&W 685 S2's that look to be in pristine condition:



https://www.audiogon.com/listings/m...-s2-2017-05-14-speakers-80526-fort-collins-co


Not a bad deal for ~ $600 shipped! Here is the smaller matching B&W HTM62 center here:


https://www.audiogon.com/listings/m...-s2-2017-05-14-speakers-80526-fort-collins-co


Not bad for $390 shipped! I bet if the OP was to buy both the 685 S2's and the HTM62 he could get an even better deal. BTW, I own a set of the B&W CM1 S1's and love them. However, I actually prefer my Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary speakers better. Both are superb for music listening inmho.



Phil
 
#8 ·
I had considered them over-rated and overpriced just from reading random banter... until I took the time to listen to them. Of the speakers I've spent some serious time listening to I'm not sure if there are any I'd rank above the CM10 S2s for the price, and the 804 D3s are amazing, the best speakers I've ever heard.

Now, there are a lot of speakers I haven't heard, but the B&Ws I've listened to seemed every bit worth the asking price.
 
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#9 ·
B&W lost the plot when Lawrence Dickie left. Their speakers in the Dickie era (e.g. 800 Matrix line) were usually quite good, because his designs did well in the most important aspects of speaker design (flat and smooth on axis response, smooth off axis response). A Matrix 801S3 or 802S3 is still an elite loudspeaker. Maybe not a Vivid (Dickie's current line), TAD, or Revel Ultima, but still quite good.

After Dickie left, B&W entered their "sound power problem" phase. Instead of flat+smooth on axis response and smooth off axis response, they use "minimalist" (an audiophool euphemism for "misengineered") crossovers and too high midrange-tweeter crossover points. The results in both colored response on axis, and off axis response problems.

Now they're in the "sound power problem and ugly" phase, with awkwardly jutting woofers on too-curved cabinets.

It's a pity their system design skills have atrophied so much, because their drive units are still very interesting. Maybe even better than they were in the Dickie era.
 
#44 ·
'98...I bought pair of 804m speakers. They were phasing them out for the new Nautilus line...when paired with a quality sub, this was a world class small floor standing speaker...I still have them to this day.

Obviously not in the realm of a pair of 802m...but actually better than the 803m. Point is, I paid $2800 (retailing for $3500 at the time) for these speakers 19 yrs ago...the 804D3 is $9k now and the 803D3 (which they did finally get right BTW) is $15k.....no!

I'm looking to update my system now and have demoed a lot of speakers...B&W still make good speakers imo, but they are considerably overpriced today. Unless something bowls me over in the next week or so I intend to put in an order on a pair of Salks.
 
#12 ·
It is one of those questions which cannot really be answered? Overrated? strictly opinion...overpriced? again, what everyone is will to pay for quality is different and what "more" people will pay for minimal gains in SQ is also different.
Again, the example I mentioned is how I look at speakers- the Def Tech SM450 listed for 599, until they were discontinued and finally hit the low price of 200/pr, for which i bought them. i also have e5Bi speakers, which listed for 225/pr. Except for in the bass department, which is irrelevant if you are using a subwoofer, the EMP are every bit as good as the Def Tech, and IMHO, better in the mid and high ends. This logic leads me to conclude that the Def Tech SM450s, at 599/pr, were overpriced for the resulting SQ that I hear when listening to both speakers. or, you could say the EMPs were an incredible bargain for the price. Other people will differ from my opinions, however...
 
#21 ·
My point wasn't to bash Def Tech overall, just to say that the SM450 are, IMHO, overpriced for the money. no indictment of Def Tech...
 
#14 ·
In the US there are many ID options for a lot less than a B&W with comparable (not necessarily better) sound quality. Here in Canada, some of those options are available but would end up costing the same as a pair of B&W 600, Kef Q or Paradigm monitor series. I've heard both the 600 and CM series and really enjoyed the sound. Ended up with Kef Q100 because they were $350 CDN which is a steal for us.
Overhyped? no. Over priced?...depends on who you ask.
 
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#15 ·
I see people call them soft, muddy not exciting etc - is there truth here ?
Just wanted opinions
IME, the CM-9s are what you might call "soft" or "laid back." But I don't consider that a fault; rather, their mellow presentation helps to take the edge off a lot of poorly recorded material.
OTOH, are they not "soft" merely by comparison? Many speakers designed for HT are over-etched and boomy to emphasize movie special effects.
 
#16 ·
I see people call them soft, muddy not exciting etc - is there truth here ?
Just wanted opinions


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Is there an existing measurable industry standard that defines those terms? At best those are simply terms open to personal interpretation and subsequent imagination. Does it really matter how others describe them? I buy speakers and other things based on how I like them, not what others think of them.
 
#60 ·
First of all, full disclosure up front - I'm a Harman (Revel / JBL) and Paradigm dealer, so feel free to be skeptical about what I post. However, there is solid science behind what I have to say - research you can easily verify.

Harman has the only double blind speaker testing facility in the world, where each speaker can be matched not only in volume but in physical location as well. Each speaker is put on the pneumatic speaker shuffler, matched precisely in volume to all models utilized in the test, and then hidden behind an acoustically transparent screen so neither the listener or test taker knows what speaker is playing at any given time. Each speaker is moved into the identical positions in under 3 seconds using the shuffler, and then the listener compares and rates each speaker using an iPad to enter the results. Revel's policy is that they won't release a speaker until it can reliably beat the competition in these double blind listening tests. B&W is a speaker very often used in the listening trials, since it often competes directly with Revel in terms of price and prestige.

The results with B&W have been all over the map. Some of their speakers do well, others very poorly. What astounds the engineers at Harman is the inconsistency. B&W has the resources to make a good speaker, yet their designs constantly lose to the Revels during the tests. Of course, Harman has the engineering brain trust and facilities to constantly tweak a design until it beats all competitors. The issue I am speaking to is how poorly certain B&W designs do when compared not only to Revel speakers, but other competitors as well. And the testing reveals exactly the same problems that @DS-21 mentioned in his post:

B&W entered their "sound power problem" phase. Instead of flat+smooth on axis response and smooth off axis response, they use "minimalist" (an audiophool euphemism for "misengineered") crossovers and too high midrange-tweeter crossover points. The results in both colored response on axis, and off axis response problems.




Here you are referring to terms like "soft" and "muddy" in relation to perception of speaker sound. No, there is no "industry standard" that identifies those specific characteristics, but the correlation between measured speaker response and listener preference has actually been documented very well. Harman has published, peer reviewed research that shows that they can predict which speaker will win double blind listening tests with 86% accuracy just by looking at a set of graphs called the "Spinorama." (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/15-minutes-harmans-audio-guru-sean-olive) To me, that clearly demonstrates that speaker preference is not simply a matter of personal preference. In almost all cases, the speaker that wins the blind listening tests is also the most accurate. This makes sense when you think about it - just like we want our video displays to accurately portray colors, we want our speakers to accurately portray the sound of instruments and the human voice. And, as far as an existing measurable industry standard goes, we have exactly that with CEA2034, which proposes that the Spinorama become the standard by which consumers can choose speakers based on a standardized set of graphs:

https://standards.cta.tech/apps/group_public/project/details.php?project_id=165

Right now speaker manufacturers are all over the map when it comes to offering specs for their products; adopting CEA2034 will mean that consumers could actually make meaningful comparisons.

It's no surprise that speakers that measure like this (the B&W CM1, graph from www.soundstage.com):



Don't do nearly as well during comparative listening tests as a speaker that measures like this (the Revel M106, graph also from www.soundstage.com):



(I tried to compare comparably priced bookshelf speakers from either manufacturer, and use a reliable third party source.)

The speakers that win the double blind listening tests not only have smooth on axis response (the sound coming directly from a speaker), but smooth off axis response as well (the sound coming from the sides of a speaker, out to about 60 degrees of axis).
 
#17 ·
All depends on what you want,

I had B&Ws in the 90's for a few years, they fit what I wanted at that time. A buddy of mine got married and I gave him the B&W as a wedding gift and pressed on. My needs were changing so a different design served my needs better. B&W did not make speakers that fit my new requirements so I changed brands again. I find this issue with a lot of brands, they hype up their specific design so much it limits their ability to have several different designs to broaden their appeal. A great example of this is KEF, they used to have several different designs (I liked the 104.2) then came out with the Uni-Q concentric which did not do it for me. Fast forward 25 years later and that is all KEF makes, it makes sense to limit of the cost of R&D with one design, marketing is much easier but they have boxed themselves in as a one trick pony. This is fine if your needs are 100% met with concentrics--but if not you need to find another company. Bose has suffered the same fate, once you become known for a specific design, it might not be a good idea to change it until sales start dropping off. One of those quirks with audio, a technology based hobby but damned by some need for tradition and designs to remain unchanged.

Think of it this way, knowing what you know now...would you buy it again? I've owned 8 brands of speakers (not counting car audio or portable audio) some I would purchase again but around half of them I would not. To prevent that, it is best to educate yourself how the designs work, what they can and cannot do. Always be honest with yourself with what you want, be aware one design or manufacturer can't fill all your needs for the rest of your life. There is not such thing as a "future proof" speaker so try to get the one that fits your needs now, throw in a bit of extra capability as needs seem to always demand more capability. Forget the hype, speaker of the week, style of finish and that sort of thing--performance stays as looks, style and the whims of the public constantly change.

The longest I've ever used a speaker was 17 years--and I would buy it again! Replaced them last year with a new design that works better for my needs and requirements. The new speakers address the flaws in the old pair that showed up when I switched from music only to HT. Amazing what happens to speakers when you hit them with 10dB more dynamic range. :eek:

The best are the ones that fit your needs, your room, your tastes and your quirks. The hard part is being honest with yourself on what your needs are, your wants and your inner weirdness when it applies to purchasing decisions.

On the bright side, when you screw up with audio you learn something! Good luck with the hunt.
 
#18 ·
I see so many blazing reviews on other speakers - Indy brands, other names for far less - I can't justify shelling out for b & w because I love that yellow Kevlar ...
I'm passing and going jbl or klipsch or wharfdale ...
klipsch is in the lead - I like blasting intense music , clean with good bass

The reference premier line seems to fit that bill ...
 
#19 ·
Klipsch RP series is very much improved over lower end models. If you like your speakers bright and loud, they certainly fit the bill. Playing brighter speakers at elevated volume can cause ear fatigue for some listeners. Admittedly, I'm not a Klipsch fan, though the RP are far more enjoyable to listen to.
The Wharfedale's are much more laid back, but you sacrifice a few decibels on the master volume. It would be advisable to listen to all 3 to see which suits your preferences best.
 
#22 ·
B&W makes great speakers but they are not for everybody. I personally have them and am a fan. There are so many companies out there that also make great speakers so it really comes down to what you local boutique sells, you audition and end up buying. KEF, Totem, B&W, Focal and Paradigm all fall into close proximity of each other price point wise and quality wise but sound nothing alike. B&W speakers tend to bright speakers while I found Focal to be a bit more refined and smooth. I had Focal Utopia Be #6 speakers in my car and loved them, the beryllium tweeters were very nice once broken in.
 
#24 ·
Honestly with PEQ most speakers are gonna sound similar unless you have some weird driver configuration that totally changes how sound is reflected.
 
#25 ·
In doing a ton of research many believe the Klipsch RP line is less bright than your B&W 600 line...
People use the 160's near field as computer speakers .. so I've gone ahead and ordered them and I'll go from there.
The 685 will always be there if these are not my thing I'll sell and try B&W but I have a feeling I msy go all in on the RP line just based on hundreds of Stellar feedback...
 
#31 ·
I heard some RP speakers at Best Buy and didn't like them nearly as much as the 685S2's. Also found the RP speakers brighter. I'm not sure where you're located but if it's anywhere near a city it shouldn't be a problem to go hear both, that's the only way to decide.
 
#26 ·
When it comes to expensive designer products, price has no correlation to quality, its just based on what someone's willing to pay.

Are B&W great speakers - who knows. The measurements I've seen in reviews are nothing to write home about. There are tons of brands with equally great reviews but not the brand name and marketing or the iconic look.
 
#28 ·
Pretty tame and respectful responses so far. I thought there would be more haters. ;) Reading reviews isn't going to get you that far. Hopefully you can go out and audition some of the speakers you are considering.
 
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#30 ·
B&W in my opinion is worth every penny. they sound alittle more soft and cold, but with the right amp they sound balanced.
I for an instance have 2x CM9's S2 and use them with a Marantz reciever to get a neutral sound from them. Marantz uses a more warm signature.
And i love their design!
in reality all depends on the setup and mix. All speakers can sound good with the right amp.
 
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