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post #271 of 534 Old 06-12-2017, 09:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
I think what some are hitting at is that you have to have a AV rec with preouts for that Amp to work....
Just found out that is the case. Another blunder on my part during this process. I had thought this model is a new model would have preouts....what a dam joke by Denon
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post #272 of 534 Old 06-12-2017, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
Your amp have plenty of power


I do understand as a purist? that you do not want to use a sub, and listen to music into Pure Direct
I use to do the same (now listen to music with the subs on).
The specs say down to 35Hz, but how many down is hard to tell from one manufacture to another, some play with numbers and others don't


A well integrated sub can do wonder, if not well integrated it will lesser the nirvana of the experience.
The only suggestion that I can offer, is since you have such a nice amp, keep-it since your speakers on the low end of been efficient.
Other than that, if you have a sub available, maybe play with the placement.


Sorry, no real help on my part.


Ray
Yes, I have a PB13 Ultra and a True Sub Junior but there is something about listening to a good bookshelf/monitor without a sub like the OP is achieving in this thread. It all comes at a cost and there are tradeoffs everywhere. Paradigm is now high on my evaluation list. Thanks!

Outbackwack
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post #273 of 534 Old 06-12-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Just found out that is the case. Another blunder on my part during this process. I had thought this model is a new model would have preouts....what a dam joke by Denon

Oh well, two mistakes, not bad at all. I also came very close to making that first one when I was going to buy stand mount MLs for another room after first purchasing the electrostats. I'd been away from the hobby for while and was really befuddled as to why speakers would be priced per each instead of a pair as it had always been. Incensed at ML for their sneaky approach to pricing, that's how I ended up buying the B&Ws so another mistake.
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post #274 of 534 Old 06-12-2017, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by outbackwack View Post
Yes, I have a PB13 Ultra and a True Sub Junior but there is something about listening to a good bookshelf/monitor without a sub like the OP is achieving in this thread. It all comes at a cost and there are tradeoffs everywhere. Paradigm is now high on my evaluation list. Thanks!

Outbackwack

I did not look into "True Sub Junior" yet, running out of time
For the PB13, I got two of them, and could be bias when I say they are "a Very fine Sub".


But also cannot argue about pure listening stereo is a Blass


Enjoy the journey for the perfect sound, and the best of luck!




Ray
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post #275 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Now I have a decision to make


1. Upgrade receiver that has preamp outs 100%

I've now looked more carefully haven't found any Denon's between $400-600 at BH photo where I bought my X2300W that have AVRs with amp outs.??

2. Bite the bullet send back Outlaw 5000 lose $140 in round trip shipping


I still have time to send back receiver and upgrade to AVR that has amp outs but just can't find any
Saw one Denon on BH for $999
Not spending that type of cash
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post #276 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 06:35 AM
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No question, some speakers, not all...will sound better with more power. However, I am a firm believer that a speaker must sound good at low to moderate power, or it doesn't stay in my house. Or to put another way, I rarely play music or movies at reference or above, so I don't worry what my speakers will sound like at a volume that i normal don't listen to.

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post #277 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
No question, some speakers, not all...will sound better with more power. However, I am a firm believer that a speaker must sound good at low to moderate power, or it doesn't stay in my house. Or to put another way, I rarely play music or movies at reference or above, so I don't worry what my speakers will sound like at a volume that i normal don't listen to.
Good point EliHawk
I'm probably once again overthinking...won't be many times that I have my volume over 75 on remote for TV and/or music
But if the AVR starts doing funky things, turning off, overheat etc..
That could be trouble without amp and/or need new receiver anyhow
Shortly down road. Hate to limit myself just because I know I can't go higher....
It's one thing to not want to go louder it's another knowing you can't go louder...
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post #278 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Elihawk View Post
No question, some speakers, not all...will sound better with more power. However, I am a firm believer that a speaker must sound good at low to moderate power, or it doesn't stay in my house. Or to put another way, I rarely play music or movies at reference or above, so I don't worry what my speakers will sound like at a volume that i normal don't listen to.

Or more precisely, a speaker(s) in my room must sound good and full at low levels. I mean at levels of 50 - 70db.
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post #279 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 07:57 AM
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I am about overall quality -- a good speaker will have good resolution at all levels -- it must sound good to my ears. I do not need the approval of an spl meter to justify what I am hearing.

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post #280 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
I am about overall quality -- a good speaker will have good resolution at all levels -- it must sound good to my ears. I do not need the approval of an spl meter to justify what I am hearing.
How often do you do the LOUD stage? Just hoping to get idea for my own sake
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post #281 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Now I have a decision to make


1. Upgrade receiver that has preamp outs 100%

I've now looked more carefully haven't found any Denon's between $400-600 at BH photo where I bought my X2300W that have AVRs with amp outs.??

2. Bite the bullet send back Outlaw 5000 lose $140 in round trip shipping


I still have time to send back receiver and upgrade to AVR that has amp outs but just can't find any
Saw one Denon on BH for $999
Not spending that type of cash
If you absolutely need that outlaw, you could return your AVR and get this AVR with pre-out and audyssey Xt32 for a good bit less.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html
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post #282 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
How often do you do the LOUD stage? Just hoping to get idea for my own sake
Everyone has their own preference -- the key for me is to not distort at my comfort zone and to be able to handle short term loud dynamic peaks. A lot of speakers can handle short term loud dynamic peaks. Most people do not listen at reference levels -- As also stated, sometimes it is the receiver that is causing the problem. Also at extreme certain levels, the room modes and reflections are getting in the way and effect (rob, cancel) the sound.
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post #283 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you absolutely need that outlaw, you could return your AVR and get this AVR with pre-out and audyssey Xt32 for a good bit less.
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html
Great find thank you.

That's the million dollar question : do I need the amp?
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post #284 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Great find thank you.

That's the million dollar question : do I need the amp?
Maybe settle on which speakers you are going to keep and then decide on amp or not -- as you know, the forum can be good at spending your money!

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post #285 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Great find thank you.

That's the million dollar question : do I need the amp?
If you're using hi-end tower speakers and running them full range in a dedicated 2.0 setup, the amp makes sense. You're going with Bookshelf speakers and 2 great subs, don't listen at reference level and will be doing TV and HT mostly, you don't really need it IMO. That being said, if returning the amp cost more than levelling up the AVR, might as well keep it.
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post #286 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 08:54 AM
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Live Updates- 7 speaker brand challenge

Yes, Many forum members love spending other folks $$

I for one from a new separate Emotiva 2 channel XPA Amp to drive my front Revels in 5.1.4 set-up. I have Yamaha A2050 and it's almost as good 90-95% of the time. It's just when I occasionally crank it I wanted the extra headroom.

I'm in upstairs semi-open 25x17 carpeted bonus room across back of house. I typically listen in low to mid-80s db from 12 ft away and push into mid-high 90s at times
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post #287 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, Many forum members love spending other folks $$

I for one from a new separate Emotiva 2 channel XPA Amp to drive my front Revels in 5.1.4 set-up. I have Yamaha A2050 and it's almost as good 90-95% of the time. It's just when I occasionally crank it I wanted the extra headroom.

I'm in upstairs semi-open 25x17 carpeted bonus room across back of house. I typically listen in low to mid-80s db from 12 ft away and push into mid-high 90s at times
So do you disconnect everything from AVR then run ething into amp every time for loud sessions?
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post #288 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you're using hi-end tower speakers and running them full range in a dedicated 2.0 setup, the amp makes sense. You're going with Bookshelf speakers and 2 great subs, don't listen at reference level and will be doing TV and HT mostly, you don't really need it IMO. That being said, if returning the amp cost more than levelling up the AVR, might as well keep it.
Problem is, looking at the manual it looks like the Denon X2300W doesn't have Pre-amp outputs. IF that's true the Amp is useless, or am I missing something
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post #289 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pase22 View Post
If you're using hi-end tower speakers and running them full range in a dedicated 2.0 setup, the amp makes sense. You're going with Bookshelf speakers and 2 great subs, don't listen at reference level and will be doing TV and HT mostly, you don't really need it IMO. That being said, if returning the amp cost more than levelling up the AVR, might as well keep it.
Returning the amp = -$140 for round trip ship $70 each way

Denon X3000W on BH photo site is only with amp outs for $999
That's $500 more than the X2300W I paid.

Looks like returning the Outlaw 5000 is only economical option
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post #290 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Problem is, looking at the manual it looks like the Denon X2300W doesn't have Pre-amp outputs. IF that's true the Amp is useless, or am I missing something
No you'Re right
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post #291 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 09:30 AM
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Live Updates- 7 speaker brand challenge

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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
So do you disconnect everything from AVR then run ething into amp every time for loud sessions?


Amp drives the fronts all the time now. For music or movies. For music I simply put the AVR in 2 channel stereo mode or on "straight" mode to detect SACDs some of which are 5.1

Sorry to hear about Amp situation and possibly eating $140 in shipping

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post #292 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Returning the amp = -$140 for round trip ship $70 each way

Denon X3000W on BH photo site is only with amp outs for $999
That's $500 more than the X2300W I paid.

Looks like returning the Outlaw 5000 is only economical option
You can get the Denon X3300 for much less as mentioned a few posts back. Would still be a little more than return shipping though. Your call.

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post #293 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 10:21 AM
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Oh boy cant waiittt
I'm in Florida and Chane's in Florida but I think they sent A2.4s by Turtle Express...taking one week to get to me when I could've drove 4 hours to get them lol
That's only complaint with Chane's. Customer Service is #1 out of the brands I've tested. Jon Lane tries to make everybody happy and be informative, a true speaker guru
I know I'm way behind on this thread, but the A2.4 speakers ship from Utah. lol. I'm not sure what stock Jon keeps on hand in FL.
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post #294 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 10:28 AM
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Another Ultra owner here.

I also use the Outlaw 5000 (good budget amp that puts out an honest 135wpc, all channels driven. [ref. http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier.../measurements])

At ridiculous volumes I have never heard a hint of clarity loss, or audible distortion of any kind. Either through the Outlaw 5000 or my integrated NAD C372. So IMO something is very wrong with your setup if you're hearing distortion at 80dB.

While I don't think the Ultra Bookshelf is the best sounding speaker out there (echo the clinical comments), it is very neutral, well rounded and full sounding. A/B with the ML Motion 15, I ultimately chose the Ultra for the all rounded nature. The ML sound good, superior in some ways but lacking in others. In any case, I haven't heard any one speaker pair that does it all right to my ears. Maybe the B&W Matrix 801, back in the day. But I had different ears then

Thanks for taking the time to give your impressions of these various speakers, I love this stuff.

My Ultra bookshelf speakers are in the office now, and they are overkill. Mostly vinyl in here, for nostalgia sake. A warmer speaker would likely be a better choice. That said they perform admirably and would be hard to replace.
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post #295 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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You can get the Denon X3300 for much less as mentioned a few posts back. Would still be a little more than return shipping though. Your call.
Well at that point, wouldn't it make sense just to keep Outlaw and run my fronts and keep AVR run everything else?

I can get the 3300 for $700 after tax free ship

I'll try to figure best route. Maybe getting $500+ back on return best bet....will try to digest all of this next few days while I'm away in P.Rico for work
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post #296 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Another Ultra owner here.

I also use the Outlaw 5000 (good budget amp that puts out an honest 135wpc, all channels driven. [ref. http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier.../measurements])

At ridiculous volumes I have never heard a hint of clarity loss, or audible distortion of any kind. Either through the Outlaw 5000 or my integrated NAD C372. So IMO something is very wrong with your setup if you're hearing distortion at 80dB.

While I don't think the Ultra Bookshelf is the best sounding speaker out there (echo the clinical comments), it is very neutral, well rounded and full sounding. A/B with the ML Motion 15, I ultimately chose the Ultra for the all rounded nature. The ML sound good, superior in some ways but lacking in others. In any case, I haven't heard any one speaker pair that does it all right to my ears. Maybe the B&W Matrix 801, back in the day. But I had different ears then

Thanks for taking the time to give your impressions of these various speakers, I love this stuff.

My Ultra bookshelf speakers are in the office now, and they are overkill. Mostly vinyl in here, for nostalgia sake. A warmer speaker would likely be a better choice. That said they perform admirably and would be hard to replace.
Therein lies the problem possibly i.e. Many suggested AVR running low on juice and suggested amp. With you running amp that could be the answer to what I'm hearing and others from AVR
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post #297 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 11:06 AM
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Well at that point, wouldn't it make sense just to keep Outlaw and run my fronts and keep AVR run everything else?

I can get the 3300 for $700 after tax free ship

I'll try to figure best route. Maybe getting $500+ back on return best bet....will try to digest all of this next few days while I'm away in P.Rico for work
If you're keep the X2300, probably better to send it back. I agree with a previous poster that something is off if your AVR is running out of gas at 80db. Try turning up your source level in the AVR menu.

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post #298 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 11:32 AM
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Therein lies the problem possibly i.e. Many suggested AVR running low on juice and suggested amp. With you running amp that could be the answer to what I'm hearing and others from AVR
Probably. As was mentioned the Ultras are closer to a 4ohm measurement which may not play well with your receiver.
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post #299 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 11:36 AM
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How often do you do the LOUD stage? Just hoping to get idea for my own sake
Too often for me... I [have to] run near 0 when watching movies or I can't hear soft talking. Running Yamaha 3060, Parasound A21 and Amphion speakers rated only 85 sensitivity in a wide open room plan. YPAO run several times with same results. 10 feet away.
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post #300 of 534 Old 06-13-2017, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mpk1970 View Post
Now I have a decision to make


1. Upgrade receiver that has preamp outs 100%

I've now looked more carefully haven't found any Denon's between $400-600 at BH photo where I bought my X2300W that have AVRs with amp outs.??

2. Bite the bullet send back Outlaw 5000 lose $140 in round trip shipping


I still have time to send back receiver and upgrade to AVR that has amp outs but just can't find any
Saw one Denon on BH for $999
Not spending that type of cash
Keep the Outlaw and get this (not released yet, which may be a problem)

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/mc-700
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