two subs and bookshelfs or one sub and towers? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I am moving to a new house soon and the width of the dedicated media wall has space for either one sub and towers or two subs and a pair of bookshelfs (that will sit on the corners of a media cabinet).

My last set up was one sub and towers. I have zero experience with two subs.

95% of my time is spent watching movies, sports and TV shows (5-10% music).

For reference, my set up would be either 1 or 2 SVS PB-1000 (already own 1 sub now) and either a pair of Q acoustics or Martin Logan bookshelfs or towers. The subs, whether 1 or two would be placed to the left and right of the TV facing my main listening position.

Room is big open concept room with kitchen behind main listening position and high ceilings

Would you go dual subs and bookshelfs or one sub and towers with the choices I have (SVS, Q Acoustics, Martin Logan)

Thanks

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post #2 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 07:12 AM
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Since you are 95% Home theater, you want to go two subs and bookshelves (but real bookshelves, not satellites).
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post #3 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bargugl View Post
Since you are 95% Home theater, you want to go two subs and bookshelves (but real bookshelves, not satellites).
I agree. I went to large bookshelf speakers and have not looked back. Love it. I have Def Tech Studio monitor bookshelf speakers. They aren't small like a satellite speakers. Sound great though

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post #4 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 07:32 AM
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I would definitely go the 2 sub route. Having both subs up front may not necessarily be the best location. You should do the sub crawl to determine best location. This would maximize your sub's output and avoid any possible nulls.

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post #5 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
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post #6 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
Huh I'm actually surprised SVS gave that advice, really surprises actually.

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post #7 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:20 AM
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I'd concur with the two sub / bookshelf option. Towers are great when you're either financially- or space-limited but won't get you the same experience that a large, powerful subwoofer (let alone 2) can provide. Given your circumstance and open floor plan, the extra dedicated sub would be the way to go.

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post #8 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
Did you talk to a tech or salesman? Salesman in the modern age tend to not always know their product all that well. Due to very long wavelengths of low frequencies, in an open floor plan the subwoofer needs to try to fill the entire space that is open to it, not just the listening area. Further they make-up for the lack of bigger drivers in the LR speakers by taking over the low frequencies for them. Your space would benefit much more from dual subwoofers than tower speakers, especially for HT.
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post #9 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:21 AM
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I would definitely do 1 sub and towers. No reason other than i love the way towers look compared to bookshelf speakers. But i have to agree with others for your space 2 subs will definitely be better than 1. Is there no other place you can put the second sub? You don't have to get it now, but maybe somewhere down the line.

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post #10 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 08:43 AM
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Honestly you'd probably be happy with both options and each setup could be made to sound good but in general I'd say Bookshelves and dual subs have the potential to sound the best. Proper setup is key though and you would need a measurement mic and to become familiar with REW to properly set them up.

I use 3 bookshelves with 5 1/4 drivers as my mains and center and cross them over at 100Hz, at this frequency I find I can't localize the subs, the bookshelves aren't stressing much at all and very few towers are going to match subwoofers from 20-100Hz in output or distortion.
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post #11 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 09:06 AM
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Good question, common dilemma. You indicate you have a large, open floorplan. That in itself presents challenges to achieving acceptable to good low-end performance. Towers would be my choice for full range two channel music listening , but not for a HT surround system. Bookshelf's with appropriate sub or subs would be my preference for the majority of living room scenario HT's....why? Bookshelf's will more than fill the typical 2500 sq ft or less living room space with sound above the normal low frequency cut-off points. Also, at least 70% of the sound in such a system will come from the center channel. Towers are overkill unless you want really good speakers that you will be using a lot without the rest of the surround system for strictly 2 channel music listening. Also, the bigger the speaker, the more room it needs to "breathe" away from boundries. Most towers I see and hear are sonically compromised by poor placement and will never sound as good as they can because people refuse to bring them two or three feet into the room and away from side walls where they sound their best.


Back to the sub(s)...Generally, from my observations once a room size "opens-up" to over more than 2200 cubic feet and isn't a closed room it is very rare to get good bass response throughout the room, even with a "monster sub". The benefits of running two appropriately sized and powered subwoofers in any room is in my opinion is the most "underrated basics" that many folks fail to implement in their initial design and speaker selection. Two subs will almost always, without fail, provide lower frequency response, more headroom, hence more impact, and much smoother response to a much greater area in the room due to fewer dips and peaks and fewer standing waves from one sub. Two SB 1000s might be a stretch depending on the cubic volume of your entire "open" space. It's fairly easy to get great near-field sound above 60-80 hz at your listening positions from most L/C/R speakers, but for good low-end, you have to consider the entire cubic area of space that will have to be pressurized (and many systems fail to do this).


Recommend bookshelf's and two subs.
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post #12 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
I am moving to a new house soon and the width of the dedicated media wall has space for either one sub and towers or two subs and a pair of bookshelfs (that will sit on the corners of a media cabinet).

Would you go dual subs and bookshelfs or one sub and towers with the choices I have (SVS, Q Acoustics, Martin Logan)
Sounds like you are space-challenged, but just along the media wall? Do you HAVE to place both subs on the one wall for aesthetics/power/connection considerations, or could you move a 2nd sub elsewhere withing the space? If you can, you might want to pick up that 2nd sub from SVS since they have a generous trial period, and do some experimenting, see how well you can integrate the 2nd sub in an alternative location. It may or may not work, depending on the freedom you have of placement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
I'll throw our another alternative, and I'm sure it'll get plenty of criticism, but you could consider on-walls - keep the bookshelves off the media cabinet, and you wouldn't have the constraints of towers taking up the space otherwise reserved for your two subs! Juts a thought....

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post #13 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 10:00 AM
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My experience anything with 6.5" woofers (floor standing or not) is essentially a book shelf speaker. I have PSB Alpha T1 for my L&R and have the crossover set at 80Hz, yes they can reach down lower but sacrifice SQ in the vocal range in doing so.


YMMV... you didn't mention which model Martin Logan you are looking at and I have zero experience with Q acoustics.
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post #14 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
Probably a better margin on towers vs subwoofers.
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post #15 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
YIKES.

Put a call through to SVS and Martin Logan today and both said towers and 1 sub instead of dual subs and bookshelfs.

The responses on here are the opposite so far.

I will keep the research and polling going! See how things end up after a few more days of asking around.
They would be absolutely right if the majority of your listening was music but for movies/gaming in a large space they are simply wrong IMHO.

I tested the Q Acoustics Concept 20s vs. my Martin Logan LX16s last year and for Home Theater use the Q Acoustics were every bit as good, maybe better.

The LX16s were slightly better on jazz, classical, acoustic, single vocals heavy music but the Concept 20s were better on Piano.

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Concept 20s for music or HT at a fraction of the price of the Martin Logans.

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post #16 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 12:36 PM
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No matter what you choose for speakers I'd still go with 2 subs

I have large room, somewhat open, the devastation my HSU (dual) subs accomplish at 50% power is testosterone raising.


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post #17 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
95% of my time is spent watching movies, sports and TV shows (5-10% music).

Room is big open concept room with kitchen behind main listening position and high ceilings

Would you go dual subs and bookshelfs or one sub and towers with the choices I have (SVS, Q Acoustics, Martin Logan)
Bookshelves with subs...but not a small TM bookshelf like the Concept 20.

I'd go with MTM bookshelves like the Chane A2.4, Ascend 340SE, or Hsu HC-1. You get the room-filling high sensitivity and dispersion of a tower without the tower price-tag.

A pair of any of those 3 would cost exactly the same as a pair of the C20, and they'd run circles around the C20 for HT use especially in a space like yours. About 12 years ago I lived in a very similar space, with 18 foot cathedral ceilings...my LCR of Ascend 340s easily filled the room with accurate, clean sound even though powered by a cheap $250 AVR.

~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #18 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddvette9 View Post
I am moving to a new house soon and the width of the dedicated media wall has space for either one sub and towers or two subs and a pair of bookshelfs (that will sit on the corners of a media cabinet).

My last set up was one sub and towers. I have zero experience with two subs.

95% of my time is spent watching movies, sports and TV shows (5-10% music).

For reference, my set up would be either 1 or 2 SVS PB-1000 (already own 1 sub now) and either a pair of Q acoustics or Martin Logan bookshelfs or towers. The subs, whether 1 or two would be placed to the left and right of the TV facing my main listening position.

Room is big open concept room with kitchen behind main listening position and high ceilings

Would you go dual subs and bookshelfs or one sub and towers with the choices I have (SVS, Q Acoustics, Martin Logan)

Thanks
Just so you understand, this is actually two separate questions:

Question 1: Bookshelves or Towers?
a) How far away are you sitting from the speakers?
b) How capable of a bookshelf?
In general, as long as the bookshelf can play "cleanly" down to 60hz minimum (this is for the standard 80hz crossover, you don't want the speaker distorting before or at the roll off point) then you need to consider your seating distance. As a "general" point of reference, 11-13' is a good transition point for deciding between Bookshelf or Tower, anything farther than 13' or so, you should probably go Towers. (If you're using less capable bookshelves, figure subtracting 2' from that reference distance)

Question 2: One Sub or Two?
In an enclosed room, this question needs consideration for 3 concerns, how many seats do you care about?, placement options?, building enough pressure.
But, you don't have an enclosed space, and you sound limited in placement options, so most of this is out the window. (plus with your space and PB1000' s, you'd probably need 6 minimum, for any real pressure)
So, if you go with bookshelves, get two, if you need towers, just plan on a second down the road. But if there's any way you could get it or them closer to your seating (maybe flanking the seats as end tables) do so, it may provide some extra tactile sensation, to help with the lack of pressure.

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post #19 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
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Bookshelves with subs...but not a small TM bookshelf like the Concept 20.

I'd go with MTM bookshelves like the Chane A2.4, Ascend 340SE, or Hsu HC-1. You get the room-filling high sensitivity and dispersion of a tower without the tower price-tag.

A pair of any of those 3 would cost exactly the same as a pair of the C20, and they'd run circles around the C20 for HT use especially in a space like yours. About 12 years ago I lived in a very similar space, with 18 foot cathedral ceilings...my LCR of Ascend 340s easily filled the room with accurate, clean sound even though powered by a cheap $250 AVR.
For High SPLs beyond a normal seating position your are surely correct.

$807 for three Chanes with their 5.25" main drivers, $972 for the Ascends and $852 for the HSUs, the latter two brands with 6.5" drivers.

The HSUs would seem to offer the highest bang for buck for HT use.
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post #20 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 02:53 PM
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For High SPLs beyond a normal seating position your are surely correct.

$807 for three Chanes with their 5.25" main drivers, $972 for the Ascends and $852 for the HSUs, the latter two brands with 6.5" drivers.

The HSUs would seem to offer the highest bang for buck for HT use.
Yeah, plus the Concept 20s would saddle him with the Concept center which despite its hefty $310 pricetag is still using little 4" drivers.

The Ascends do have the capability to be made into tower-LOOKING speakers thanks to the OEM stands, which offer the additional benefit of excellent child/pet-proofing if needed since they can be filled with +100lbs of sand/shot.
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~ Are you a "geek hobbyist" obsessed with squeezing out that last 5-10% improvement? The economy will thank you...especially the Chinese one. Or are you more of a get-set-and-forget "casual user" who simply wants to increase your enjoyment of movies, TV and gaming? Relax, HT isn't rocket science, nor does it have to cost an arm and a leg---especially if you ignore the aforementioned vocal minority. And remember to smile...it's just a silly hobby, after all. :)
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post #21 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 03:08 PM
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I too would choose the HSU or Ascend over the Chane, even without the difference in driver size.
But I do also think, if all else being equal, a 6.5" driver has a slight edge liner a 5.25" for HT applications, but that's just a personal choice.

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post #22 of 22 Old 07-24-2017, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
Yeah, plus the Concept 20s would saddle him with the Concept center which despite its hefty $310 pricetag is still using little 4" drivers.

The Ascends do have the capability to be made into tower-LOOKING speakers thanks to the OEM stands, which offer the additional benefit of excellent child/pet-proofing if needed since they can be filled with +100lbs of sand/shot.
It's about time Q Acoustics got a larger center for their concept series and a 6.5" Concept series of bookshelf/tower.

For smaller/medium sized spaces the current lineup is just fine, but for larger you want, well, larger, as you say.

And the Ascends look quite elegant as "towers.'

If purchased at the same time as the 340s those stands are a remarkably reasonable $138/pair.

Geoff A. J., California
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