Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 1751 Old 08-12-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Lol, I'm not worried either way. Personally, I think the Salon 2 will emerge as the winner. But I have no problem with that. My goal has always been to find the speaker that I can personally find no flaws with, not "the best speaker made".

Besides, I'm a high output horn guy and have traded SQ for those qualities for many years. High output is the first hurdle a speaker has to cross before I'll even consider it. I like horsepower .
Good looks was mine, oh wait....
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post #332 of 1751 Old 08-12-2017, 09:22 PM
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Good looks was mine, oh wait....
Hehe. Yeah, in an Adam's Family way...
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post #333 of 1751 Old 08-12-2017, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Just a quick note -

Thanks to all that attended our casual get together Friday night, which seemed like a full on party complete with loud music and movies Great seeing both new and familiar faces! We had close to a full house - a good time was had by all, I hope!

Special thanks to those that participated in the double blinds today - we had 6 participants, all sworn to secrecy. Six was the perfect amount - everyone got to hear all of the demo tracks and do their trials while seated in the sweet spot (no group listening). And all have graciously agreed to keep their votes completely secret from all of you on the Forum until after the second round tomorrow.

And then we just had fun spending our time primarily listening to the "winner," plus some of the other speakers we have on hand.

More later - I'm wiped out
Congrats, John. I too wish like heck that I could have been there.

But I get the heebie-jeebies seeing that there is a ... "winner". These awesome speakers are each beautiful performers within their own designed niches. Different maybe. Not better. No winner.

MARGARITAS,
they're not just for breakfast anymore.
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post #334 of 1751 Old 08-12-2017, 11:17 PM
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Relax. I'm sure each speaker has its virtues. As for which one I expect will win, I consider it a tossup. My thoughts on respective strengths shown in the measurements:

Salon 2: wider dispersion
M2: smoother, flatter frequency response
Salon 2: cleaner top end response (Be tweeter) with less dispersion narrowing and no on-axis ramping of response

That's, of course, ignoring aesthetics (Salon 2), output capability (M2), and price (M2 even with amps?) Honestly which ever speaker "wins", if someone had to choose between them after blind listening, I reckon there'd be a pretty even split in choice.
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post #335 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Relax. I'm sure each speaker has its virtues. As for which one I expect will win, I consider it a tossup. My thoughts on respective strengths shown in the measurements:

Salon 2: wider dispersion
M2: smoother, flatter frequency response
Salon 2: cleaner top end response (Be tweeter) with less dispersion narrowing and no on-axis ramping of response

That's, of course, ignoring aesthetics (Salon 2), output capability (M2), and price (M2 even with amps?) Honestly which ever speaker "wins", if someone had to choose between them after blind listening, I reckon there'd be a pretty even split in choice.
me personally,

I would put my money on the speaker that has the smoother frequency response. I would further say the speaker thats smoother between 800hz and 7k will be the overall winner.

I hope they post measurements

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post #336 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
me personally,

I would put my money on the speaker that has the smoother frequency response. I would further say the speaker thats smoother between 800hz and 7k will be the overall winner.

I hope they post measurements
Yeah, that is a reasonable thought. The M2 has smoother spins, but not a smoother on-axis response. So what will dominate impressions? I'd say the on axis.
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post #337 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 07:40 AM
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Yeah, that is a reasonable thought. The M2 has smoother spins, but not a smoother on-axis response. So what will dominate impressions? I'd say the on axis.
hmm. They look similar to me from the graphs the op posted. I think the response at the mlp will dominate. will be interesting to see which is smoother at the mlp based on how each one interacts with the room

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post #338 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 07:49 AM
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I'd bet on the M2 because:


  • Horns have a "live" dynamic sound that is very appealing.
  • The M2's are active and equalized, flatter response
  • The amps may not be the best match for the Salon2's. (I recommend bi-amping, but I think that would have been fair since the M2's are active)


In Favor of the Salon2's, is that they are not clean and not fatiguing in any way and at 85 DB average SPL, people are going to get tired.
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post #339 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
hmm. They look similar to me from the graphs the op posted. I think the response at the mlp will dominate. will be interesting to see which is smoother at the mlp based on how each one interacts with the room
Yeah, you're right, I went back and looked. Very similar.
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post #340 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
I'd bet on the M2 because:


  • Horns have a "live" dynamic sound that is very appealing.
  • The M2's are active and equalized, flatter response
  • The amps may not be the best match for the Salon2's. (I recommend bi-amping, but I think that would have been fair since the M2's are active)


In Favor of the Salon2's, is that they are not clean and not fatiguing in any way and at 85 DB average SPL, people are going to get tired.
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No doubt, the M2's are insanely dynamic. But all the subjective reviews I've read seem to think the Salon's are very dynamic as well, at least to the point of ear damaging levels.
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post #341 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I'm curious, was it a unanimous win for the "winner", or was it split in some ratio?
Nope, not going to tell you I just don't want anyone today to have any kind of expectation.

Believe me, I can't wait to discuss what we heard.
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post #342 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post
Congrats, John. I too wish like heck that I could have been there.

But I get the heebie-jeebies seeing that there is a ... "winner". These awesome speakers are each beautiful performers within their own designed niches. Different maybe. Not better. No winner.
Thanks! And I get what you are saying - hence my quotation marks around the word "winner."

Plus I want to keep everyone tuned in and intrigued

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post #343 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:10 AM
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Good morning all. I was at the Friday night GTG and had a great time meeting fellow audio enthusiasts. Sorry it took so long to post. 12 hour work day on Saturday. But looking forward to the event today.


I am some what different than most of the other participates in this event. I am more a 2ch purist but not an elitist. Most others are into multi-channel listening. I had some pre conceived notions going into this event. Obviously thinking that the Solons are going to kill the M2, although not getting a chance to listen to the Solons on Friday night because the M2 were all set up. I can't wait to hear them today.


I have only ever heard lower end JBL's and never liked them. The M2s are a much different breed altogether. I enjoyed them very much. We listen to multiple different DTSx and Dolby Atmos tracks at very loud dbs and they sounded great. The M2s are very clean and neutral sounding. When I say loud I mean loud. Probably high 90s to 100 dbs with peak around 118 dbs. But they never sounded stained in any way. In fact even at those db levels they didn't really sound that loud.


More to follow after todays blind listening session.


Mark

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post #344 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Hey! No spoilers. I won't be sitting and listening until tomorrow.

Edit: I don't think the calibration was "technically" a Synthesis calibration because it wasn't done by JBL's engineers, even if it used the same algorithms, built in to the SDP-75 processor. With no offense meant to John who just got his SDP-75, I imagine that the quality of the result will depend on the experience level of the person running it. I told him they should let him keep the processor for a few months so he can really get good at using it.
It needs to be back in Harman's hands by Sept. 1. Was hoping they'd let me keep it through CEDIA, but I am definitely not going to look this particular gift horse in the mouth.

I will be posting my thoughts on the SDP75 after this event is all over, and I can take a day or two to recover. I've gotten permission to post screen shots of the interface, so that should really help people follow along.

RE: whether or not this is a "legit" Synthesis calibration. Other than the fact that it does not include "SFM" (which is not quite yet available for the SDP75), I would say it definitely is. When I did the cal, Curt Hoyt from Trinnov was co-pilot through the whole thing, and Curt is one of trainers for the JBL crew. The nice thing was that he could log into the interface remotely and help steer. Once the mic captures the measurements, it's pretty easy for him to analyze the data remotely and make suggested tweaks. Considering how dense and tweaky this product is, I am pretty happy that I was able to keep up

See you today!
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post #345 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 08:29 AM
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I too am disappointed I won't be able to attend today. I was hoping to do a fly-in-fly-out from Dallas, but things are just too busy this weekend (including the airlines). Anyway my money is on the M2s...seems they're just what the good doctor ordered.
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post #346 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
Yeah, that is a reasonable thought. The M2 has smoother spins, but not a smoother on-axis response. So what will dominate impressions? I'd say the on axis.
I think this may be somewhat room dependent. In my anecdotal experience and in my room, which has diffusers, listening window is more important than on-axis. Back when I first added the diffusers, I noticed a substantial spatial smoothing of subjective frequency response. In a drier room, the on-axis may be more important, at least for the listener sitting on-axis.
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post #347 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
RE: whether or not this is a "legit" Synthesis calibration. Other than the fact that it does not include "SFM" (which is not quite yet available for the SDP75), I would say it definitely is. When I did the cal, Curt Hoyt from Trinnov was co-pilot through the whole thing, and Curt is one of trainers for the JBL crew. The nice thing was that he could log into the interface remotely and help steer. Once the mic captures the measurements, it's pretty easy for him to analyze the data remotely and make suggested tweaks. Considering how dense and tweaky this product is, I am pretty happy that I was able to keep up
Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that the calibration did use SFM, even though it wasn't done by the "pros".

When you have time, can you comment on the processing on the subs? I gather they had different gains and different delays for front vs. rear, and I think you said that the rear channels were crossed differently? Or maybe that was just an option? Otherwise though, the room EQ was applied to all of them as unit?
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post #348 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 10:41 AM
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Good morning all. I was at the Friday night GTG and had a great time meeting fellow audio enthusiasts. Sorry it took so long to post. 12 hour work day on Saturday. But looking forward to the event today.


I am some what different than most of the other participates in this event. I am more a 2ch purist but not an elitist. Most others are into multi-channel listening. I had some pre conceived notions going into this event. Obviously thinking that the Solons are going to kill the M2, although not getting a chance to listen to the Solons on Friday night because the M2 were all set up. I can't wait to hear them today.


I have only ever heard lower end JBL's and never liked them
. The M2s are a much different breed altogether. I enjoyed them very much. We listen to multiple different DTSx and Dolby Atmos tracks at very loud dbs and they sounded great. The M2s are very clean and neutral sounding. When I say loud I mean loud. Probably high 90s to 100 dbs with peak around 118 dbs. But they never sounded stained in any way. In fact even at those db levels they didn't really sound that loud.


More to follow after todays blind listening session.


Mark

I couldn't make it given the distances involved, but if I was anywhere near, I would have. After all, y'all need at least one heckler in the crowd, right?

"I am more a 2ch purist but not an elitist"

I'm both ..... or at least was an elitist until my spending was impacting what I would do financially if I lived longer than I expected so it was time to 'tone' it down a bit.

"I have only ever heard lower end JBL's and never liked them"

I went through my JBL phase way way back when with L100s, L45s and L300s.

I had what I thought would be garage speakers for detail day(s) with a set of LSR308s a few weeks ago and took those back after two days for most of the same reasons I dislike JBLs as much as I do. I don't like having multiples of the same in here so I was willing to give them a try.

"When I say loud I mean loud."

I wonder what they sound like at 75-80db, which is the level I generally listen.

I also did a little review of the Everests that were in the Harman room at Axpona. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...017-recap.html I don't recall the Revels in the same room this year. Maybe they were at the other end of the room and I didn't notice.

The M2s, I've only heard a few times, but I don't much recall one way or the other what I thought of them. I have heard the Revels, which I thought were pretty decent along with Focal, Dynaudio, Magico and many others I can thinks of.

I'm really not technical so I couldn't care less what measurements show. I wouldn't have been predisposed with a 'confirmation bias' based off of numbers. I only care about the sound field a pair of speakers create ..... not three, certainly not one, but two.

So yeah, it would have been interesting. I'd love to throw a pair of Magico Q7s or Q5s in the mix and see what y'all thought.

But, given what was there, my money would have been on the Revels

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post #349 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 10:56 AM
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Im really interested in the demo tracks as I have found the quality of what gets played in my system(and Im sure all systems) really can make stuff sink or swim so to say. And I hate sinking

So I love listening to high quality stuff to begin with, makes my soul all happy.
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post #350 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"I am more a 2ch purist but not an elitist"

I'm both ..... or at least was an elitist until my spending was impacting what I would do financially if I lived longer than I expected so it was time to 'tone' it down a bit.

I also did a little review of the Everests that were in the Harman room at Axpona. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...017-recap.html I don't recall the Revels in the same room this year. Maybe they were at the other end of the room and I didn't notice.
Out of curiosity, how old are you?

The Everests were played at Cedia. I have never heard a speaker effortlessly play so loud.


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Im really interested in the demo tracks as I have found the quality of what gets played in my system(and Im sure all systems) really can make stuff sink or swim so to say. And I hate sinking

So I love listening to high quality stuff to begin with, makes my soul all happy.
Yes, I would be interested to hear what the play list was along with Floyd's recommendations. I would love to take something to Cedia so I don't have to constantly listen to the same female singer.

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post #351 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 12:14 PM
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Out of curiosity, how old are you?

The Everests were played at Cedia. I have never heard a speaker effortlessly play so loud.


Yes, I would be interested to hear what the play list was along with Floyd's recommendations. I would love to take something to Cedia so I don't have to constantly listen to the same female singer.

My age you ask? I had my first set of ESLs in 1959. Saw my first big band live right around 1947. Does that get you close?

Frankly, I don't give a flying crap about 'loud', and that's why I still have hearing past 13k, and at my elderly, advanced geezerly Buick driving age, that's unusual. But in re the Everests, I sure didn't like the height cues all at knee high. At least this year, the Everests didn't stretch the vocalist's image a couple of feet wide as they did at the 2016 show. Center was sized pretty close, provided that the vocalist was only 2 1/2' tall, but they did have trouble off of center either direction. They also didn't do well with 'scale'. Every musical instruments sounded to be the same size. So nope, not for me. On the plus side, they would go very loud, and were fairly neutral for a JBL, with little in the way of honk honk and not much boom boom either

I did listen to his stuff and then went to several of my favs that I list in this thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/301-av...nd-system.html. I took a 256gb flash drive with a bunch of my stuff on it.

The most startling fail was the Sheffield Harry James, Still Harry After All These Years. Probably the genre and recording I'm most familiar with and listened to the most over the last 40+ years. Big band is (generally) unamplified and if one sits up in the first 10 rows or so, has the widest conceivable sound stage at probably 120 degrees with plenty of depth. This one was recorded direct to disk with one stereo mic (plus two touchup mics for piano and bass). This one, Lab 11, was recorded at Wylie Chapel with the late Doug Sax at the dials and does the best of the three at conveying height. The other two were recorded, I believe, at Hollywood Presbyterian church and although were better performances in ways, but the sound field isn't quite as fleshed out as Lab 11.

If I were to pick one recording out of my list to take with me to evaluate, that's the one. It's the recording that when I'm sick of hearing about 'frequency response' (which is quickly) tells me all I need to know about everything else.
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post #352 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 01:12 PM
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I don't like to listen at ear bleeding levels either. The JBLs were on the show floor, so had plenty of room to breath. That said, I didn't find the speaker to be the best I have heard.

Thanks for the age check.

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post #353 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 01:25 PM
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I don't like to listen at ear bleeding levels either. The JBLs were on the show floor, so had plenty of room to breath. That said, I didn't find the speaker to be the best I have heard.

Thanks for the age check.

74, and if that isn't a geezer, I don't know what is. My grandpa started taking me, the snot faced 3 yr old, to live big band at that age. So I've probably been to hundreds over the years and that's my standard.
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well if you move to okinawa, you might be on a waiting list to the geezer club

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post #355 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 01:32 PM
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well if you move to okinawa, you might be on a waiting list to the geezer club

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post #356 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 01:49 PM
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Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made

May be time soon to buy the 2018 Buick Regal GS, looks like nicest sporty Buick since the mid-80s Gran Sport.

Primary set-up 5.1.4; Yamaha A2050, Paired w/Parasound P5 & ATI 522NC 2 channel amp
Revel F206 fronts & Revel M16 rears; Outlaw X12 Sub & 4 RSL C34e in-ceilings

Secondary 5.1: Denon S900W, Polk LSiM703/704C, Polk RC80i in-ceiling rears, RSL Speedwoofer 10s
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post #357 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Shootout results!!!

OK, here is the short and sweet version. Official tallies to come, but going by a quick perusal of the score sheets and the conversation after the tests:

Saturday: Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 80% - 20% margin.

Sunday - Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 65% to 35% margin.

I will post more of my own thoughts later, but I am in agreement with the consensus. The M2s are great, the Salon2s are glorious

Thanks to all for participating! What a great time, seriously.
RichB, gsr, Brad/Viper-Fan and 9 others like this.

John Schuermann
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post #358 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 05:50 PM
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What in the flying fish market?!

I didn't expect it to be so one sided. I look forward to reading more.

Thank you, John.
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post #359 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, here is the short and sweet version. Official tallies to come, but going by a quick perusal of the score sheets and the conversation after the tests:

Saturday: Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 80% - 20% margin.

Sunday - Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 65% to 35% margin.

I will post more of my own thoughts later, but I am in agreement with the consensus. The M2s are great, the Salon2s are glorious

Thanks to all for participating! What a great time, seriously.

I would have expected more lopsided than that. Were the votes secret until all done so you didn't have the masses influencing the undecided?
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post #360 of 1751 Old 08-13-2017, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
OK, here is the short and sweet version. Official tallies to come, but going by a quick perusal of the score sheets and the conversation after the tests:

Saturday: Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 80% - 20% margin.

Sunday - Revel Salon2s preferred by about an 65% to 35% margin.

I will post more of my own thoughts later, but I am in agreement with the consensus. The M2s are great, the Salon2s are glorious

Thanks to all for participating! What a great time, seriously.
Awesome! This is great you put this together John! Well done.
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