Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 29 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #841 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
so if we all tend to agree on the flat smooth on axis and off frequency responses, why dont more companies make speakers like this? or do they and just not reviewed? and another question, do microphones all record the same that are used by recording studios? is the microphone topic worthy of discussion?
I can talk endlessly about microphones and recording/live sound for classical and pop/rock music. This is probably not the right thread to go that direction.
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post #842 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
so if we all tend to agree on the flat smooth on axis and off frequency responses, why dont more companies make speakers like this? or do they and just not reviewed? and another question, do microphones all record the same that are used by recording studios? is the microphone topic worthy of discussion?
I think there are many good products out there, including speakers that also measure well according to the flat on and off axis idea.

Still, different target goals exist - some claim a flat power response is correct, some claim a tilted is the best.

Then there is preference. Some try to create a speaker that has a specific sound character, perhaps accentuating some sonic parameters, to make it sound more interesting, engaging. Some of these speakers are highly regarded by their owners, they like how they sound.

Depends on what kind of sound you want to present. An omni radiating speaker presents soundstage and instruments very different from a speaker with narrow dispersion.
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post #843 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 05:38 PM
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Then there is preference. Some try to create a speaker that has a specific sound character, perhaps accentuating some sonic parameters, to make it sound more interesting, engaging. Some of these speakers are highly regarded by their owners, they like how they sound.

Depends on what kind of sound you want to present. An omni radiating speaker presents soundstage and instruments very different from a speaker with narrow dispersion.

Its interesting comparing this thread to some of the video display threads/video calibration threads I've read. It seems like even suggesting preference should come into play in a video-display calibration will get you run out of town chased by pitchforks. On the sound side, Harmon conducts double-blind tests to determine what people generally prefer so that it can produce speakers that measure in a way that matches this general preference.
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post #844 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 05:45 PM
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anyone like their music with all dsp/eq off? if you do, when do you ever like to use dsp/eq? everytime the word veil is used in audiophile descriptions I always think of eq/dsp. I think John quoted a few times that if eq is done rightit can work very well...Im wondering how many beginners or consumer avr's use dsp/eq where it works well? I admit Im a novice on this concept and rather just buy gear that sounds great in my space out of the box
My MiniDSP DDRC-22D just arrived two days ago, and I've been playing with it a bit. So far I've done one measurement routine using the 'chair' (single listener) template and created a few frequency curves. Since I have my source connected to the preamp with both analog (uncorrected) and digital (through the MiniDSP unit) I can switch back and forth to compare (though the analog signal chain has about 10-12db more gain than the digital, so I have to play with the volume between them). There are things I like better about each, but I don't want to get too deep into it until I play with it more and try measuring using the 'sofa' setting which a lot of people report as providing a better sound stage. I'll create a thread about it and post plenty of measurements once I've had more of a chance to learn the ins and outs.

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post #845 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Its interesting comparing this thread to some of the video display threads/video calibration threads I've read. It seems like even suggesting preference should come into play in a video-display calibration will get you run out of town chased by pitchforks. On the sound side, Harmon conducts double-blind tests to determine what people generally prefer so that it can produce speakers that measure in a way that matches this general preference.
ok anyone have any sales numbers? does revel top bw in sales? is it marketing problem? design? I know Im not a JBL fan from long ago past experiences. Have nothing against revel. believe whole outfit got sold to samsung? this gonna change anything?

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post #846 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 05:57 PM
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Nope not likely...
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post #847 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Yes, I am familiar with Acourate and Audiolense and would include those products in my criticism of room EQ systems. Even though use of a FDW, which is a step in the right direction, these programs are correcting too deep into the impulse response and do not adequately distinguish direct sound from early reflections the way that our ears and brain are able to. The peaks and dips shown in your first graph arise upon summation of direct sound and reflections that our ears hear and our brains process independently.

The manner in which our hearing system aggregates that information is very different from the way that these features sum to create the frequency response we measure. The tracing of a smooth curve between peaks is a fudge to deal with the fact that the response cannot be inverted as-is. While peaks in frequency response correlate better with perception than dips, this smoothed aggregate is derived from the wrong information in the first place. The "psychoacoustic-smoothing" (to borrow the term used in these programs) approach may be inspired by science, but that doesn't make it correct.

Furthermore, last I checked those programs were designed to operate using data from a single measurement location. At the very least, a room EQ approach needs multiple measurements within a region occupied by the listener's head or else it's merely guessing as to the spatial variation of response. Yet, I find measurements across a much wider region of the room to be more useful even when the goal is to optimize sound in one location. Multiple measurement locations over a wide area may not be strictly necessary, but I find they make the analysis much easier. And of course, for optimization of multi-listener environments, they are essential.
I agree with this post and would like to post ,visually, one reason why. Oftentimes, equalization corrects problems that are not there and creates problems where there were none prior.

As a rule, single point measurements are not that useful as we hear two different points in time and space that will have wildly different responses

It also illustrates why its usually not a good idea to boost dips





above is a single point measurement, and then a moving mic measurement of about an 8" cube that encompasses the location of the initial single point measurement.


this is an unsmoothed measurement of my center speaker at the listening position. It has had the anechoic response of each driver flattened but no eq for the listening position.

the most important thing to note is that most of the dips that are present in the single point measurement are absent in the moving mic measurement, and that supports your points that, oftentimes, dips we see are not audible, or only audible at one point in space and as such people listening with two ears will not hear the dip.

It also shows that the moving mic measurement closely follows the peaks of the single point magnitude response vs an average.
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post #848 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 06:54 PM
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I agree with this post and would like to post ,visually, one reason why. Oftentimes, equalization corrects problems that are not there and creates problems where there were none prior.

As a rule, single point measurements are not that useful as we hear two different points in time and space that will have wildly different responses

It also illustrates why its usually not a good idea to boost dips





above is a single point measurement, and then a moving mic measurement of about an 8" cube that encompasses the location of the initial single point measurement.


this is an unsmoothed measurement of my center speaker at the listening position. It has had the anechoic response of each driver flattened but no eq for the listening position.

the most important thing to note is that most of the dips that are present in the single point measurement are absent in the moving mic measurement, and that supports your points that, oftentimes, dips we see are not audible, or only audible at one point in space and as such people listening with two ears will not hear the dip.

It also shows that the moving mic measurement closely follows the peaks of the single point magnitude response vs an average.
I've adopted the moving mic method outlined here: http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf for measuring and eq'ing subwoofers after they are time aligned and working together constructively through the crossover. I record pink noise with REW's RTA (forever averaging turned on) all around the listening area and eq the result. Sweeps taken later at various points in the listening area closely conform to the RTA average. Of course ensuring proper phase alignment follows through the crossover to my diysoundgroup Fusion8's as a last step.

After having such success with the subs, I have acquired a minidsp nanoavr hd and plan to try this method for my mains.

Great thread!
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post #849 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 06:57 PM
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ok anyone have any sales numbers? does revel top bw in sales? is it marketing problem? design? I know Im not a JBL fan from long ago past experiences. Have nothing against revel. believe whole outfit got sold to samsung? this gonna change anything?
Harman is big in car audio. Word on the street is that is one of the reasons Samsung bought them.

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post #850 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:13 PM
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my wifes lexus has some harmon top tier car audio by mark levinson? jaguar new fpace suv has meridian? whatever secret sauce/tech science/design revel jbl has going for it, hope samsung doesnt cash them out like I linked earlier to a set of berillium earbuds for $20 or that other chinese earbud I linked which really does sound quite fantastic for what it is....close to my dfocal elear headphones at 1k.

anyone compared the new paradigm persona speakers with be midranges and tweets for 35k vs salon2/M2 ? sorry i ask/talk so much...just fun stuff to talk about/learn about when not having a J O B/retired.

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post #851 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Its interesting comparing this thread to some of the video display threads/video calibration threads I've read. It seems like even suggesting preference should come into play in a video-display calibration will get you run out of town chased by pitchforks. On the sound side, Harmon conducts double-blind tests to determine what people generally prefer so that it can produce speakers that measure in a way that matches this general preference.
There is a reason why I said "they". The concept of a colored speaker "improving" the sound does not correlate so well with my own understanding of what is good sound. Just saying that everybody does not agree.

And the omni vs narrow speaker still falls within the requirements for flat on-axis and smooth power response. An omni just need a little different target tilt on the response to create the same frequency response in-room. Same criteria, but still very different presentation of the sound.

This was the short version, I am a guest in this thread, and I want to respect that. Though not implying that others should not ask or comment or criticize.

Perhaps it is better to let Harman comment on this, and Toole has already written several comments we can read again.
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post #852 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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While it seems counter-intuitive that the Salon 2 beat the M2 in this recent one-on-one evaluation, given that the M2 has the better looking spin, when we acknowledge that both speakers have better spins than just about everything else tested, the result is less surprising.
Exactly

Hence the need for a "dog" next time we do this.

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post #853 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
my wifes lexus has some harmon top tier car audio by mark levinson? jaguar new fpace suv has meridian? whatever secret sauce/tech science/design revel jbl has going for it, hope samsung doesnt cash them out like I linked earlier to a set of berillium earbuds for $20 or that other chinese earbud I linked which really does sound quite fantastic for what it is....close to my dfocal elear headphones at 1k.

anyone compared the new paradigm persona speakers with be midranges and tweets for 35k vs salon2/M2 ? sorry i ask/talk so much...just fun stuff to talk about/learn about when not having a J O B/retired.
One strength of having a bunch of brands is that Harman can license exclusive deals with a bunch of automakers - Lexus gets Mark Levinson, Lincoln gets Revel, Hyundai/Kia get Infinity, Toyota gets JBL, Genesis gets Lexicon, etc. The only reason I can fathom for the recent acquisition of Arcam is to add another brand they can license to another automaker.
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post #854 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
There are lots of bad speakers that are 'highly regarded'. If it was good, I'm sure it would still have it
Here is Kevin Voecks on the Salon1 rear tweeter design:

Greenhill: What are the major engineering changes in the Salon2?

Voecks: You recall that the Salon1 required a rear tweeter for it to deliver a uniform power response in the room. We were able to eliminate the rear tweeter in the Salon2 because of the increased power output of the new beryllium front tweeter, coupled with benefits from its new waveguide design and baffle shape, to deliver the same response on axis and 60° off axis. Why is that important? The 60–70° off-axis response constitutes the first reflection from sidewalls, which is demonstrably audible and psychoacoustically important.


Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/intervie...gxyxqPzDMrj.99


At the time the Salon1 was released, it went through extensive double blind tests against competing models and was not released until it could reliably beat them, so at least back in the late 90s it was as good as could be found.

Thought the above might provide some context
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post #855 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:23 PM - Thread Starter
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One strength of having a bunch of brands is that Harman can license exclusive deals with a bunch of automakers - Lexus gets Mark Levinson, Lincoln gets Revel, Hyundai/Kia get Infinity, Toyota gets JBL, Genesis gets Lexicon, etc. The only reason I can fathom for the recent acquisition of Arcam is to add another brand they can license to another automaker.
I believe Arcam is going to be a division of Harman Luxury (like Synthesis and Revel), not their auto division. Will learn more at CEDIA...

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post #856 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
According to Kevin Voecks, the original Salon tweeter did not have the power output that the beryllium tweeter has.

Voecks: You recall that the Salon1 required a rear tweeter for it to deliver a uniform power response in the room. We were able to eliminate the rear tweeter in the Salon2 because of the increased power output of the new beryllium front tweeter, coupled with benefits from its new waveguide design and baffle shape, to deliver the same response on axis and 60° off axis. Why is that important? The 60–70° off-axis response constitutes the first reflection from sidewalls, which is demonstrably audible and psychoacoustically important.

The interview has a lot of information re: the Salon2 design: https://www.stereophile.com/intervie...jyUQbr0lhW8.99
LOL - guess I should have waited until I got further into the thread before posting

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post #857 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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ok anyone have any sales numbers? does revel top bw in sales? is it marketing problem? design? I know Im not a JBL fan from long ago past experiences. Have nothing against revel. believe whole outfit got sold to samsung? this gonna change anything?
Some here may know that Samsung hired away some of Harman's engineering team members a few years back, Allan Devantier among them. From my understanding, Samsung was intent on recreating some of Harman's scientific testing methodologies before this acquisition even went down. So far there have been zero complaints of any kind of "interference" from Samsung on any of the Harman Luxury lines (Revel, JBL Synthesis, Mark Levinson, etc).

RE: JBL. There's JBL pre-Toole and Olive's work, and JBL post-Toole and Olive's work. Two different animals.

I think B&W's sales numbers are higher than Revel's - but Revel is a much newer company.
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post #858 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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RE: Room EQ. My understanding Toole's new book will have a lot to say about the subject. Generally speaking, and again from my understanding, he is not a fan Like so many things, it's not a black and white thing either.

Possibly he will chime in here with some comments.

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post #859 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:43 PM
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so if we all tend to agree on the flat smooth on axis and off frequency responses, why dont more companies make speakers like this? or do they and just not reviewed? and another question, do microphones all record the same that are used by recording studios? is the microphone topic worthy of discussion?
Why don't more companies sell TVs whose default display mode is properly calibrated or at least close to properly calibrated? Why does almost every TV on a sales floor use a display mode with a strong blue push?

The answers may be similar. At least the TV can usually be switched to a better video mode or even calibrated after it's brought home. With speakers? That's a lot harder to do and get right.
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I would guess with tv's it may be to counteract the fluorescent bulbs used in big store warehouses? no idea other than that.

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post #861 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by awediophile View Post
Why don't more companies sell TVs whose default display mode is properly calibrated or at least close to properly calibrated? Why does almost every TV on a sales floor use a display mode with a strong blue push?

The answers may be similar. At least the TV can usually be switched to a better video mode or even calibrated after it's brought home. With speakers? That's a lot harder to do and get right.
I assume you are being facetious

The answer is simple - people get drawn to the brightest displays like moths to a flame. Hence the victory of LCD over plasma.

There's a similar factor with speakers, and why so many speaker listening comparisons are almost completely invalid. The brighter or louder speaker will most often win.

If retail sales floors had at LEAST the ability to equalize volume between loudspeakers, we'd have a MUCH more reliable way of comparing them - IMO. Of all the sales floors I have been on, only one had a speaker level matching volume control. What a huge difference that made...
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post #862 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:52 PM
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Really fun.
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I assume you are being facetious

The answer is simple - people get drawn to the brightest displays like moths to a flame. Hence the victory of LCD over plasma.

There's a similar factor with speakers, and why so many speaker listening comparisons are almost completely invalid. The brighter or louder speaker will most often win.

If retail sales floors had at LEAST the ability to equalize volume between loudspeakers, we'd have a MUCH more reliable way of comparing them - IMO. Of all the sales floors I have been on, only one had a speaker level matching volume control. What a huge difference that made...
I really liked psb speakers when I audition them everytime...but when start comparing them to others...they start to lose interest in many areas. weird how that happens with our brains/ears.

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post #864 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I would guess with tv's it may be to counteract the fluorescent bulbs used in big store warehouses? no idea other than that.
No - seriously. It's exactly what I said above. The TV manufacturer's even admit this - they either have a special "display mode' or a "vivid" setting that emphasizes brightness at the expense of color accuracy, plus usually has the sharpness cranked up all the way as well. They all know it's a crappy picture, but it's eye-catching.

It literally is the TV equivalent of the music "loudness wars."
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post #865 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 08:04 PM
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well if i was a tv manufacturer i like my thought process better
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Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #866 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
Hi, thanks for sharing this. this is a corrected measurement. i was hoping for an uncorrected measurement.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...S13d1dzNFZKNE0

raw measurements of the HF and LF driver at the listening position. I used about 20 measurements from each component to generate the filters for each speaker
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post #867 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 09:19 PM
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@RichB - thank you for sharing your in-room measurements. It would be nice if the vertical scale was 5 dB per div, but I am grateful. Not sure what is happening there at 1 kHz... For sure, Salon2 very nice loudspeaker. Still would love to see some step responses, as it is the timing response where things become real interesting.

@1201 - I have used moving mic measure, beamforming techniques, multi-seat, near field anechoic only, averages at the listening location, etc. I have also tried several DSP packages, both commercial and open source and the ones mentioned in this thread. Not all are created equal.

Just to show that one analysis measurement that is used to generate the eq FIR filter can work across multiple locations:



Here I took 14 measures of both the left and right speakers, across a 6' x 2' grid. Meaning for each location, both the left and right speakers were measured:



My listening room has a couple of acoustic panels, but largely untreated and definitely on the live side. My stereo is offset from center to one side of the room. The DSP helps equalise the balance so that the phantom stereo center is indeed dead center.

As mentioned, not all DSP packages are equal and a lot is left up to the practitioner, where the first mistake made is typically over equalization. Which is one of the reason I wrote a guide in the first place. As with everything audio, there are multiple ways to arrive at similar destinations.

Thanks again @RichB for sharing your measures, as that was my original question.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Filter Design Verification layout.jpg (196.2 KB, 689 views)
File Type: jpg REW LR speakers 14 fr measures across 6ft by 2ft grid at LP.jpg (324.7 KB, 688 views)
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post #868 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
I believe Arcam is going to be a division of Harman Luxury (like Synthesis and Revel), not their auto division. Will learn more at CEDIA...
Gotcha, the Arcam press release said Harman Lifestyle, which apparently is the division in charge of the automotive licensing, but it could have been wrong or the situation could be fluid.

It seems odd for Harman to market receivers or pre/pros under the Arcam brand name though when they already have the well-regarded Harman/Kardon and Lexicon brands for that.

HT: Sony 940C, Oppo 203, Harman/Kardon DPR1001, Infinity Interlude IL40 x2, Infinity Interlude IL36C, Infinity MS-1 ii x2, Infinity MSW-1
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post #869 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...S13d1dzNFZKNE0

raw measurements of the HF and LF driver at the listening position. I used about 20 measurements from each component to generate the filters for each speaker
thanks for sharing. these look a lot more like what im used to seeing in typical rooms.

for some reason i had trouble opening your files. May I ask what version of rew you are using?

thanks

THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
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post #870 of 1751 Old 08-21-2017, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I've adopted the moving mic method outlined here: http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf for measuring and eq'ing subwoofers after they are time aligned and working together constructively through the crossover. I record pink noise with REW's RTA (forever averaging turned on) all around the listening area and eq the result. Sweeps taken later at various points in the listening area closely conform to the RTA average. Of course ensuring proper phase alignment follows through the crossover to my diysoundgroup Fusion8's as a last step.

After having such success with the subs, I have acquired a minidsp nanoavr hd and plan to try this method for my mains.

Great thread!
awesome.

I havent been using listening position or room eq lately but, when I do the moving mic method is my go to method.
IF you are using dsp and want to keep phase intact, another method is to take 16 measurments around the mlp and use the a+b/2 feature of REW several times to get to one final average. it takes a lot longer than the moving mic method though
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THANK YOU!!! for your selfless contribution to the audio world
Anders Torger for Brutefir
Thomas Drugeon for Rephase
John Mulcahy for room eq wizard
Denis Sbragion for DRC room correction
Juha Hartikainen for Winisd
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