Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 31 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #901 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by duckymomo View Post
Try LOYAL
It was John who posted the discount flyer, and I think it is inappropriate for me to do it. However the Amazon price is only $5 more.

I complained, and am told that some books will soon be on their way to me from the publisher - amazing. Apparently the warehouse has shipped copies to the usual outlets but not to the author. Such disrespect
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post #902 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Gotcha, the Arcam press release said Harman Lifestyle, which apparently is the division in charge of the automotive licensing, but it could have been wrong or the situation could be fluid.

It seems odd for Harman to market receivers or pre/pros under the Arcam brand name though when they already have the well-regarded Harman/Kardon and Lexicon brands for that.
Will know more after CEDIA. I would guess it does not make much sense to revive those names. The AVR / Pre-Pro market has been shrinking for quite a long while now...

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post #903 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
It was John who posted the discount flyer, and I think it is inappropriate for me to do it. However the Amazon price is only $5 more.

I complained, and am told that some books will soon be on their way to me from the publisher - amazing. Apparently the warehouse has shipped copies to the usual outlets but not to the author. Such disrespect
guess you needed to preorder and leave your cc info with publisher low blow I know...

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post #904 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the coupon again.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Sound Reproduction Flyer_USD.compressed.pdf (427.2 KB, 58 views)
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post #905 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Rex Anderson View Post
Hey John, what year did Toole and Olive's work actually affect JBL speaker design? What were the first models that started sounding good and measuring well?

This might explain a lot re: my dislike of older JBL studio monitors I heard in studios when I first started working as a recording engineer.

I know the Revel Ultima Gem came out in 1997.

Thanks for any info you can provide.
Not sure what year precisely, but from my understanding Toole and Olive's work was met with more than a little initial resistance Therefore, it should not be surprising that it took a while for the results of the research to make it's way into JBL products. I know the 6332 series monitors and their siblings are very accurate, as of course are the new M2 and 7 series. Prior to that I have no idea - before my time :/

There are several in this thread who know exactly what it's like to confront someone who has one of their beloved speakers roundly defeated in a blind listening test. Usually the reaction isn't pretty...

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post #906 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Hifisound View Post
@John Schuermann
Do you have spinorama for Studio 2 ?

Looking at stereophile measurements, they seem to be even better measuring than Salon 2 and more sensitive too.
For bass, the price difference will allow 2 or 3 great subs and spare cash
Ask and you shall receive



Bass manage these beauties and I think you'd have a hell of a system!
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post #907 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:47 PM
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here is an honest question...can anechoic measurements be different from one another? meaning since they are so few to begin with, are they all the same acoustically? scientifically so? and then outside of the chamber results, is it all trial and error? or is it still controlled by measurements? just trying to get a feel for ok design is good....but fine tuning is done by ear or microphone or ....

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post #908 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
This may have been mentioned before, but has there been any research quantifying what the goldenears and reviewers hear and their preferences? If so, how does that correlate to the trained monke......I mean listeners (that was for Scott) an Harman labs?
You are gonna love this. More slides from Olive's CEDIA presentation. When I can catch my breath I am going to start a whole thread devoted to this. LOTS of great information that should be helpful for just about anyone in the Speakers Forum. I think you will particularly enjoy the last slide:









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post #909 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:58 PM
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I totally agree about trained listeners and results....but who is your market? If I wanted to sell more speakers, I might want to have my listeners based on who is buying them...thus throw training out the window. As most consumers dont have training. But making money isnt the same thing as making the best product

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post #910 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
here is an honest question...can anechoic measurements be different from one another? meaning since they are so few to begin with, are they all the same acoustically? scientifically so? and then outside of the chamber results, is it all trial and error? or is it still controlled by measurements? just trying to get a feel for ok design is good....but fine tuning is done by ear or microphone or ....
Earlier in one of the forums - not this one I think - I showed measurements on four samples of the Salon2 as published by soundstagenetwork.com (who used my old NRCC anechoic chamber), Stereophile (who did somewhat compromised time windowed measurements - too close and short window), and Sound and Vision. The NRCC chamber measurement was an almost perfect duplicate of the Harman chamber measurement on the engineering prototype. The Sound and Vision back yard 2m measurement was smoothed but pretty close. The Stereophile curve had some minor deviations. All of them superimposed were really usefully close. The figure is in the new book.

So, two things were demonstrated: production quality control, which in this speaker is something you get for the extra money, and confirmation that good anechoic chambers agree.
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post #911 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:00 PM
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honestly for my 20k speakers and up, I wouldnt have any females or men under 40 listen....unless those were the ones buying them.

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post #912 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I totally agree about trained listeners and results....but who is your market? If I wanted to sell more speakers, I might want to have my listeners based on who is buying them...thus throw training out the window. As most consumers dont have training. But making money isnt the same thing as making the best product
If you re-read the slides I posted, you can see that trained listeners and untrained listeners actually came up with the same results. It's just that the trained listeners can make their determinations much more quickly AND describe to you what they heard in more meaningful terms. If you look at the slides, you can see that Harman tested everyone from audio reviewers to college students. The results are consistently the same, it's just a matter of how quickly you get there

Here's the link to the listener training program again, should anyone want to see what it's all about -

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/
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post #913 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
If you re-read the slides I posted, you can see that trained listeners and untrained listeners actually came up with the same results. It's just that the trained listeners can make their determinations much more quickly AND describe to you what they heard in more meaningful terms. If you look at the slides, you can see that Harman tested everyone from audio reviewers to college students. The results are consistently the same, it's just a matter of how quickly you get there

Here's the link to the listener training program again, should anyone want to see what it's all about -

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/
thats pretty cool, gonna try it out tomorrow. thanks.

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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
If you re-read the slides I posted, you can see that trained listeners and untrained listeners actually came up with the same results. It's just that the trained listeners can make their determinations much more quickly AND describe to you what they heard in more meaningful terms. If you look at the slides, you can see that Harman tested everyone from audio reviewers to college students. The results are consistently the same, it's just a matter of how quickly you get there

Here's the link to the listener training program again, should anyone want to see what it's all about -

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com/

"describe to you what they heard in more meaningful terms."

So they read?

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index.html
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post #915 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I totally agree about trained listeners and results....but who is your market? If I wanted to sell more speakers, I might want to have my listeners based on who is buying them...thus throw training out the window. As most consumers dont have training. But making money isnt the same thing as making the best product
You gotta take some time off and read a bit. Over the years it has been shown repeatedly that trained listeners and untrained listeners agree on their preferences. Sean Olive has done it again, and again, most recently with headphones all over the world, and there are no noticeable national, age or cultural biases to what people tell us they like. The results are in AES papers. Good sound is good sound. The advantage of trained listeners is that they arrive at statistically significant ratings quickly and they describe what they hear in terms that are useful for design engineers. If you are in the business of designing loudspeakers time cannot be wasted.

Many reviewers give rave reviews to superb speakers and also to mediocre speakers. Customers in informal sighted listening evaluations are undoubtedly making biased judgments. Nobody can change that. If you come to the conclusion that sound quality does not matter, you could be forgiven. Several brands over the years have done well employing that philosophy.

However, manufacturers have a choice. Why not make neutral loudspeakers? It does not cost any more!!! A decision and competent engineering make the difference. At least those customers who care to listen carefully will be rewarded. All else is a lottery, leading to endless forum discussions.
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post #916 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
It was John who posted the discount flyer, and I think it is inappropriate for me to do it. However the Amazon price is only $5 more.

I complained, and am told that some books will soon be on their way to me from the publisher - amazing. Apparently the warehouse has shipped copies to the usual outlets but not to the author. Such disrespect
That's ok Floyd, that is a good publisher looking out for your best interests. Remember, no money makes it to your accounts through personal orders
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post #917 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 06:59 PM
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I cant come close to debating or nitpicking most in this field. But I do know how to make money honestly. well I guess we all do that also...my point being most agree bose isnt all that, but consumers liked what they got marketed. flat spinorama's could be marketed also, but then whats left of market and pricing scale? kinda why I linked some $20 earbuds that I thought were amazing for price...1 of them beryllium plated or whatever chinese translation is.

if the community comes out and says these spinoramas equals best sound...bet your donuts some hack gonna offer these spinoramas for $100 ea. just being pessimistic. thats why I agree with whoever will agree with me that there is just more to it than a flat graph. otherwise the national known copycat country of the world would of done it already

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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
Thanks a bunch for that. I'll check it out when I get home.


I hope @Gooddoc also posts an mdat if possible
I'd have to try to find it. @notnyt has it too, no problem if you want to post it up.
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Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post
I'd have to try to find it. @notnyt has it too, no problem if you want to post it up.
@1201

mdats from Gooddoc's room for m2 and 708

708
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...TB0ajl2RTFFbEE

M2
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...Wllem4zdjViRk0
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a side but relevant point. are listeners from canada, mexico, russia, japan, norway, africa, greece...all the same? when I lived in japan I didnt know 1 japanese citizen that would own an american stereo product...a car or truck maybe if they were in top 1%...but national pride was very, very strong in electronics. now go to other countries around the world and I bet pricing rules out most of americas best/top products. but for last 10-20 years all american businesses have been trying to get into china money. basically if china isnt buying it, you are going under....but then if they buy it, you gonna get copied....ahhh, enough of my pessimism...good night.

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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Ask and you shall receive



Bass manage these beauties and I think you'd have a hell of a system!

Wow, I'm impressed, I didn't realize the Studio 200 series was that good, how does the Studio 5 compare?

I think the biggest thing that's given me a knee-jerk turn-off about the Studio 2 series is that cheap-looking faux-chrome cage around the tweeter. I'm sure it's important from an audio perspective, I just wish they'd given it a different finish.

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post #922 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Wow, I'm impressed, I didn't realize the Studio 200 series was that good, how does the Studio 5 compare?

I think the biggest thing that's given me a knee-jerk turn-off about the Studio 2 series is that cheap-looking faux-chrome cage around the tweeter. I'm sure it's important from an audio perspective, I just wish they'd given it a different finish.
This is the Revel Studio2 - they list out at $7999 each. It's the step down from the Revel Salon2. Same Beryllium tweeter, smaller form factor.

I don't think there are Spins for the inexpensive Studio series JBLs - I've asked. I think those are holdovers from the Greg Timbers days...
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post #923 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Floyd Toole View Post
You gotta take some time off and read a bit. Over the years it has been shown repeatedly that trained listeners and untrained listeners agree on their preferences. Sean Olive has done it again, and again, most recently with headphones all over the world, and there are no noticeable national, age or cultural biases to what people tell us they like. The results are in AES papers. Good sound is good sound. The advantage of trained listeners is that they arrive at statistically significant ratings quickly and they describe what they hear in terms that are useful for design engineers. If you are in the business of designing loudspeakers time cannot be wasted.

Many reviewers give rave reviews to superb speakers and also to mediocre speakers. Customers in informal sighted listening evaluations are undoubtedly making biased judgments. Nobody can change that. If you come to the conclusion that sound quality does not matter, you could be forgiven. Several brands over the years have done well employing that philosophy.

However, manufacturers have a choice. Why not make neutral loudspeakers? It does not cost any more!!! A decision and competent engineering make the difference. At least those customers who care to listen carefully will be rewarded. All else is a lottery, leading to endless forum discussions.
Thank you for your contributions both to this thread and the industry in general. I have really enjoyed reading your comments.

If you have the time, could you comment on the role listener preference plays in determining the meaning of speaker "accuracy" as Harmon uses the term? I am having a hard time getting my head wrapped around how listener preference is used to determine whether a speaker is faithfully reproducing the sound of the source.

From what I have gleaned from this thread, Harmon tests for listener preference and then designs speakers that objectively measure to meet this preference. And, it appears to me the purpose of the "spins" are to measure whether a speaker meets this tested-for preference. And it also appears that speakers that measure pretty close to flat in a chamber are generally preferred in controlled tests, but not necessarily exactly flat. But this also seems to me different from stating Harmon designs speakers to be what I always thought an "accurate" speaker meant, i.e., that the speaker is faithfully reproducing the source, regardless of preference.

Jumping forward a step, I have also gleaned that it may be impossible for a speaker to, in fact, be meaningfully "accurate" in any given room, because of the impact any given room has on the speaker's response. Further, it may be impossible to even define "accurate" in a meaningful way outside of a chamber because of the interaction between speaker and room.

All this said, is Harmon using listener preference to help define whether a speaker is generally "accurate" for sound reproduction in small rooms through the spins because there is simply no better way to judge speaker accuracy outside a chamber, and, in grey areas, Harmon wants to define accuracy in a way that people generally prefer? Or is there something else going on that I am missing and I have completely missed the boat?

I hope my question is not completely ridiculous to the pros here; I am not a sound professional or scientist, but I love buying gear, watching movies, and continuing to try to improve my listening experience, and I am trying to understand the theory behind Harmon's preference-testing process a little better.
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
This is the Revel Studio2 - they list out at $7999 each. It's the step down from the Revel Salon2. Same Beryllium tweeter, smaller form factor.

I don't think there are Spins for the inexpensive Studio series JBLs - I've asked. I think those are holdovers from the Greg Timbers days...
Oh, gotcha, that makes more sense then. The JBL Studio 5s are on the JBL Synthesis website, are they considered to be a Synthesis product then?

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post #925 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jjackkrash View Post
Thank you for your contributions both to this thread and the industry in general. I have really enjoyed reading your comments.

If you have the time, could you comment on the role listener preference plays in determining the meaning of speaker "accuracy" as Harmon uses the term? I am having a hard time getting my head wrapped around how listener preference is used to determine whether a speaker is faithfully reproducing the sound of the source.

From what I have gleaned from this thread, Harmon tests for listener preference and then designs speakers that objectively measure to meet this preference. And, it appears to me the purpose of the "spins" are to measure whether a speaker meets this tested-for preference. And it also appears that speakers that measure pretty close to flat in a chamber are generally preferred in controlled tests, but not necessarily exactly flat. But this also seems to me different from stating Harmon designs speakers to be what I always thought an "accurate" speaker meant, i.e., that the speaker is faithfully reproducing the source, regardless of preference.

Jumping forward a step, I have also gleaned that it may be impossible for a speaker to, in fact, be meaningfully "accurate" in any given room, because of the impact any given room has on the speaker's response. Further, it may be impossible to even define "accurate" in a meaningful way outside of a chamber because of the interaction between speaker and room.

All this said, is Harmon using listener preference to help define whether a speaker is generally "accurate" for sound reproduction in small rooms through the spins because there is simply no better way to judge speaker accuracy outside a chamber, and, in grey areas, Harmon wants to define accuracy in a way that people generally prefer? Or is there something else going on that I am missing and I have completely missed the boat?

I hope my question is not completely ridiculous to the pros here; I am not a sound professional or scientist, but I love buying gear, watching movies, and continuing to try to improve my listening experience, and I am trying to understand the theory behind Harmon's preference-testing process a little better.
JJackkrash, don't fret about it. All of us started somewhere, with little real knowledge and lots of questions. I trace my own history in the new book (briefly). Harman hired me in 1991 because I had shown, starting in long boring JAES papers in 1985/86 that listeners (none of whom were trained back then) preferred loudspeakers with the flattest and smoothest on-axis frequency response. Those that were most preferred, exhibited relatively good off-axis (reflected sound) responses too. It impressed me immensely that this was so, because back then many loudspeakers were really, really bad. In 1983 I created the precursor to the spinorama, and it became very clear that when the family of curves had a certain, smoothish, flattish appearance on and off axis that that loudspeaker would rate highly in double-blind tests. Since then, we have simply gone on to confirm it countless times, and to get better at creating and interpreting the measurements. Once the answer is known, engineers can design those characteristics into products. It is not magic.

Not everyone does it because there are still "golden ears" in the business. Egos are durable. However, as Torii mentioned, knowing how to design good sound quality predictably takes some of the traditional "fun" out of the loudspeaker business. The information is in the public domain. Anyone who can read can make good, neutral sounding loudspeakers. My original book is available in Chinese; I have been invited several times to lecture in China to university students in acoustics - I have not gone, but they know how to do it, whenever they choose to do it.

Of course the question of preference vs. accuracy comes up - as it should. I discuss this in the new book, and the evidence is that they are synonymous. You can ask listeners: is it real, or do you just like it? I have done so, and the answer is monotonously that they end up being the same thing, and the highest rated loudspeakers on "accuracy" or "preference" are always the ones that have the fewest technical flaws. Humans are remarkable "measuring instruments". Obviously, it cannot be that we are recognizing something closest to the master recording - the art - because we weren't there. But it does seem that we all have an ability to recognize aspects of sound that cannot be real.

You said: "I love buying gear, watching movies, and continuing to try to improve my listening experience". Me too. But, if you choose wisely, you can spend less of your money on buying gear, and more of it on other indulgences :-)
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post #926 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 08:47 PM
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Of course the question of preference vs. accuracy comes up - as it should. I discuss this in the new book, and the evidence is that they are synonymous. You can ask listeners: is it real, or do you just like it? I have done so, and the answer is monotonously that they end up being the same thing, and the highest rated loudspeakers on "accuracy" or "preference" are always the ones that have the fewest technical flaws. Humans are remarkable "measuring instruments". Obviously, it cannot be that we are recognizing something closest to the master recording - the art - because we weren't there. But it does seem that we all have an ability to recognize aspects of sound that cannot be real.
This is fascinating. I am absolutely ordering your new book. Thanks so much for the response.
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here is an honest question...can anechoic measurements be different from one another? meaning since they are so few to begin with, are they all the same acoustically? scientifically so? and then outside of the chamber results, is it all trial and error? or is it still controlled by measurements? just trying to get a feel for ok design is good....but fine tuning is done by ear or microphone or ....
>> can anechoic measurements be different from one another?

Yes but only a bit, depending on mike position(s) and any spatial (temporal) averaging. I measured in detail the horizontal radiation pattern of the Infinity P362, which won Olive blind preference tests. Those measurements appeared in LinearAudio, the BAS Speaker, and in a presentation I gave at an NYC AES convention panel. They corresponded pretty closely, but not perfectly, with the even more detailed ones from Harman, taken under different circumstances and with very different technologies and mikes. Details / graphs available to anyone who really cares about this in detail.
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post #928 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 10:41 PM
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>> can anechoic measurements be different from one another?

Yes but only a bit, depending on mike position(s) and any spatial (temporal) averaging. I measured in detail the horizontal radiation pattern of the Infinity P362, which won Olive blind preference tests. Those measurements appeared in LinearAudio, the BAS Speaker, and in a presentation I gave at an NYC AES convention panel. They corresponded pretty closely, but not perfectly, with the even more detailed ones from Harman, taken under different circumstances and with very different technologies and mikes. Details / graphs available to anyone who really cares about this in detail.

"Infinity P362, which won Olive blind preference tests"


So, the speaker brand owned and manufactured by Harman won Harman's blind test. Simply shocking how that works out.
/sarc
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post #929 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 10:47 PM
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"Infinity P362, which won Olive blind preference tests"


So, the speaker brand owned and manufactured by Harman won Harman's blind test. Simply shocking how that works out.
/sarc
It's surprising since they're dirt cheap.

I spend more on materials just for the cabinets for speakers I build. Those were selling for like $100/pc
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post #930 of 1751 Old 08-22-2017, 11:04 PM
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Dr. Toole,

OT, but I'm curious if you/Harman have done double-blind amp tests and what the results were.

I've proven to my own satisfaction that I can't hear differences between decent amps that aren't overdriven, but that doesn't mean others can't.

Noah
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