Speaker Shootout - two of the most accurate and well reviewed speakers ever made - Page 57 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1681 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I would be in but I'm 6700 miles from CA



I think John is in CO so I don't know if that shortens or lengthens your upcoming journey
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post #1682 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Agree, of course. Other than the lack of SFM and anechoic data (because it's not yet loaded into the SDP75), the system you describe above is exactly what we were listening to Friday night plus Saturday and Sunday morning before the double blinds. With the SDP75 tying everything together, it was just an incredible immersive experience - 3 M2s across the front, 4 LSR708s for side and rear surrounds, 4 Revel C763Ls in the ceiling, and a pair of S2S-EX subs in front and two HTPS400 subs in the rear.

Had two people comment that they had no idea that sound like that was even possible Of course, once SFM and the anechoic data are added, it will only get better.
Big fan of multiple subs, but are there disadvantages mixing ported with sealed subs?
Quid level matching? I have myself 2 pairs: 2 ported and 2 with passive membrane. I wonder if i could smooth out bass response further by adding more than 4 subs.

This thread is a goldmine and thanks for sharing so much added value. Sorry for slightly off-topic questions
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post #1683 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 07:09 AM
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Have not been on this site in weeks due to purchasing new house and moving, but has anyone posted yet on the M2!5 being offered by PBN?
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post #1684 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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It's like watching the Super Bowl with no Budweiser commercial.
Thanks, Mike Good to meet you at CEDIA!
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post #1685 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:20 AM
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Sure, shootout out the 15As and / or 20.7s against the Revel Salon2s? We've been considering doing a "bring your own speakers" shootout for a while now. I would have no problem setting up the Salon2s in stereo (M2s are sold and gone). We have the equipment here to do level matching and the custom built wall and slider for the speakers. And you would be free to position your own speakers. The same group of listeners would probably be thrilled to come back and participate.

I don't see any point in bringing in Everests - they were never part of the discussion. And I already have the Salon2s here, plus they "won" the shootout.

How to get your speakers out here and how to move each pair in under 5 seconds is the challenge. If we could figure out a way to do it, it would be fun
That will be most interesting. Thanks guys for your efforts.

I think there may not be any need for moving speakers. Both speakers will be positioned to where they sound the best. Just turn them on and off. Sure it can be done in less than 1 sec.

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post #1686 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Local dealer who has the ML 11As so we have some parity in prices? Salon 2s are around $10k correct? Maggies doesn't have anything around the same price point. 3.7i are cheaper and 20.7 are more

These are not hugely heavy so they theoretically could be moved that quickly. You have an MBL dealer in your area? That would make real interesting given the vastly different speaker types: unipole vs dipole vs omni
Try not to make things more complicated that they have to be. Otherwise this will never be done. The original experiment suggested would be sufficient.

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post #1687 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I would be in but I'm 6700 miles from CA
6700 miles? I always thought you were in the US

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post #1688 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
Big fan of multiple subs, but are there disadvantages mixing ported with sealed subs?
Quid level matching? I have myself 2 pairs: 2 ported and 2 with passive membrane. I wonder if i could smooth out bass response further by adding more than 4 subs.

This thread is a goldmine and thanks for sharing so much added value. Sorry for slightly off-topic questions
I talked to Todd Welti (who did all the research on multiple subs and their ability to even out bass response in a room) about this at CEDIA. He said using non-identical subs voids the predictions and there is no guarantee of the result. So, if you just want to put four subs in a rectangular room and hope for evenness in response, you want to use four identical subs.

However, if you use Harman's SFM processing (part of JBL Synthesis calibration), you can mix and match subs to your hearts content.

You can also experiment. I have two JBL S2S-EX subs (ported) and two HTPS400 (sealed) subs in my room. When I did my calibration and measurements, I simply tweaked the subs individually until I got the flattest response at the prime listening position (adjusting phase, delay, level, etc). While I don't have the same seat to seat consistency I would get with SFM, I do have extremely flat response at the front row, however, and plenty of bass energy to boot

If you really want to learn about this, the link to Todd Welti's paper is right here:

https://www.harman.com/sites/default...multsubs_0.pdf
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post #1689 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
That will be most interesting. Thanks guys for your efforts.

I think there may not be any need for moving speakers. Both speakers will be positioned to where they sound the best. Just turn them on and off. Sure it can be done in less than 1 sec.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
True, but this kind of voids the whole idea of a true scientifically controlled test where all variables are taken out of the equation.

And what if both speakers sound best in the same location?
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post #1690 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
True, but this kind of voids the whole idea of a true scientifically controlled test where all variables are taken out of the equation.
Having a visually solid wall and level matching doesn't really qualify for "all variables are taken out of the equation". People still see the room which has a (large?) impact on what is heard.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #1691 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Try not to make things more complicated that they have to be. Otherwise this will never be done. The original experiment suggested would be sufficient.
Exactly - thanks for pointing this out.

Now we are getting requests for specific "audiophile" electronics (despite double blind scientific studies showing extremely little to no audible differences in sound between well performing amps or electronics), requests to involve other dealers (any idea of the logistics involved here?), and other suggestions that would mean I would spend literally a month of dedicated time just setting up the event - and would most likely void the whole point of scientifically controlling for variables.

I think those that were here for the initial shootout saw exactly how difficult it was just to control for two mono speakers. Not only that, but there are the logistics involved in entertaining 22 people in my home for two days, supplying food and drink, tweaking the electronics for level matching, preparing recordings, promoting the event, getting Dr. Toole's input, building the test screen and slide mechanism, creating and printing out playlists and scoring sheets, etc. And then of course I was paying my employees to help set everything up and be there to help move speakers for two days. Now add to that the time and effort to involve other dealers that most likely have agendas and want to specify the particulars of the test? Again, stuff like what cables to use, what amps to use, etc - which puts us right back in the place that invalidates most other supposed "blind" listening tests.

I've run into this before, where someone will claim a test invalid because "these speakers only sound good if you use freeze-dried Quatloo brand speaker cables and Aludium K9 power cables and conditioners, and since you didn't use these, of COURSE the Revels won." Everything becomes up for debate and argument and nothing gets done. The point of this thread and the test was to demonstrate how to take all of those kinds of variables out of the equation. Controlling for variables is critical when doing true scientific testing.

All of that said, I am still wide open to the "bring your own speakers" idea, but it needs to be controlled in the manner that's been described by myself, Dr. Toole and others during this thread - same electronics, same positioning, double blind protocols. No problem accommodating stereo requests when "do-able," but that could also mean having to build a whole new transport system (it's also critical that speakers be moved in less than 5 seconds, since our audio memories are so short).
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post #1692 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Having a visually solid wall and level matching doesn't really qualify for "all variables are taken out of the equation". People still see the room which has a (large?) impact on what is heard.
I understand a room affects the sound as it will interact with the soundwaves, but how does being able to visually see the room have any affect on what is heard? Can't that easily be remediated by turning off the lights or closing your eyes?
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post #1693 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Having a visually solid wall and level matching doesn't really qualify for "all variables are taken out of the equation". People still see the room which has a (large?) impact on what is heard.
The room will have an impact on the sound but primarily below transition frequency (as mentioned by Toole numerous times in this thread), but I am open to suggestions on how we can take the room out of the equation

Perhaps it would have been better to say "as many variables as possible."
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post #1694 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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All I see is that you have zero understanding of the how and why of blind --- what it means.

Compare all you want with your range of product. Don't go impugning Olive / Harman integrity and honesty!
Thanks for this! And thanks to @DonH50 for making so many great points last night and this morning.
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post #1695 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:31 AM
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Exactly - thanks for pointing this out.

I think those that were here for the initial shootout saw exactly how difficult it was just to control for two mono speakers. Not only that, but there are the logistics involved in entertaining 22 people in my home for two days, supplying food and drink, tweaking the electronics for level matching, preparing recordings, promoting the event, getting Dr. Toole's input, building the test screen and slide mechanism, creating and printing out playlists and scoring sheets, etc. And then of course I was paying my employees to help set everything up and be there to help move speakers for two days. Now add to that the time and effort to involve other dealers that most likely have agendas and want to specify the particulars of the test? Again, stuff like what cables to use, what amps to use, etc - which puts us right back in the place that invalidates most other supposed "blind" listening tests.
Exactly. My solution is to drag highly touted speakers to Haman specifically to get the spins done. Then I will participate in the blind listening tests. That's how I will be picking my next speaker. Even that is a PITA, but in the blind listening is the only way I can actually give quality advice and I know that I won't be guessing. I'll be there in a few weeks and Harman engineering is stoked to have access to speakers that cannot afford/budget to buy for eval. It's a win-win.

Steve (Owner) Sound Video
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post #1696 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by John Schuermann View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
That will be most interesting. Thanks guys for your efforts.

I think there may not be any need for moving speakers. Both speakers will be positioned to where they sound the best. Just turn them on and off. Sure it can be done in less than 1 sec.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
True, but this kind of voids the whole idea of a true scientifically controlled test where all variables are taken out of the equation.

And what if both speakers sound best in the same location?
Dipoles such as the Maggies and MLs might well like the same location, but almost certainly would be different than it would be for the Revels. The big panel speakers could become passive radiators if left in the room.

All of this gets real out of control real fast. This is probably not workable or even close. I've been down this road comparing my ML Statements versus the big Sound labs and it was a hell of a lot of work. That's why i never did it a second time.

Fun to dream and discuss but just too much work.
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post #1697 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan3 View Post
Big fan of multiple subs, but are there disadvantages mixing ported with sealed subs?
Quid level matching? I have myself 2 pairs: 2 ported and 2 with passive membrane. I wonder if i could smooth out bass response further by adding more than 4 subs.

This thread is a goldmine and thanks for sharing so much added value. Sorry for slightly off-topic questions
Mixing sealed and ported is a challenge because the response (amplitude and phase) is so different around and below the port tuning frequency. If you can cal them individually, or at least as two pairs (sealed and ported), then you can probably dial them in, depending upon how powerful your (or you SW's) ability to correct the phase is over frequency. When mixing like that just getting the phase right at the crossover frequency is not quite good enough since the ported and sealed subs will roll off in amplitude and their phase response is pretty different.

The good news for you: A passive radiator acts somewhat like a port and will probably make the job easier.

Personally, unless you have a very large room and/or placement problems with the four you have, I'd think as far as room response goes you are at the point of diminishing return. You'll get more output but may not see a significant improvement in FR.
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post #1698 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Dipoles such as the Maggies and MLs might well like the same location, but almost certainly would be different than it would be for the Revels. The big panel speakers could become passive radiators if left in the room.

All of this gets real out of control real fast. This is probably not workable or even close. I've been down this road comparing my ML Statements versus the big Sound labs and it was a hell of a lot of work. That's why i never did it a second time.

Fun to dream and discuss but just too much work.
We are in agreement, finally Thanks for acknowledging all the work involved. Given unlimited time and funds, I would be happy to try this. However, supplies of both are always limited. However, am still open to the "bring your own speaker" idea.

I think the most fun speaker to test against would be the Revel F208 - an extremely popular model.
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post #1699 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 12:02 PM
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I understand a room affects the sound as it will interact with the soundwaves, but how does being able to visually see the room have any affect on what is heard? Can't that easily be remediated by turning off the lights or closing your eyes?
Our brain is constantly fed with visual and auditory "data". There's a close relationship between what we see and hear. Visual cues take precedence over auditory cues.
An example would be the Smyth Realiser: When you remain in the room where speakers were captured, there's virtually no difference between headphone and speaker playback. Once you listen to that captured aural space in a different room, the visual and aural dissonance is so strong, the aural illusion often completely breaks down.

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The room will have an impact on the sound but primarily below transition frequency (as mentioned by Toole numerous times in this thread),
False conclusion. The room very much changes the perception of spaciousness depending on level, angle, delay and spectrum of first reflections. But, I was talking about how visual cues can take precedence over what we hear.

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but I am open to suggestions on how we can take the room out of the equation
Guess people would need to be blindfolded. Even then they would derive room information from sounds they hear (noise, people talking, etc.)

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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>> acts somewhat like a port

can probably delete 'somewhat', since the slug of air in the vent is a mass quite the same as the mass of the PR
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I judge my speakers on the basis of how my pet hippopotamus (who is not an audiophile) responds to them.
Is it cosmic? Does it fly?
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post #1703 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Our brain is constantly fed with visual and auditory "data". There's a close relationship between what we see and hear. Visual cues take precedence over auditory cues.
An example would be the Smyth Realiser: When you remain in the room where speakers were captured, there's virtually no difference between headphone and speaker playback. Once you listen to that captured aural space in a different room, the visual and aural dissonance is so strong, the aural illusion often completely breaks down.
Wouldn't these visual cues affect both speakers equally since they're in the same room so therefore not really a variable in how we rate the speakers against each other?
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post #1704 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 01:24 PM
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>> acts somewhat like a port

can probably delete 'somewhat', since the slug of air in the vent is a mass quite the same as the mass of the PR
Well, yeah, probably, you're as bad as I am for avoiding absolutes.

My basis is my long-ago grad acoustics class where we actually waded through all the math. (I refuse to do that again, call me lazy, old, stupid, whatever. I thought it'd be fun, then we start by solving differential/integral wave equations in several dimensions, blah.) IIRC the suspension (flexibility, extension, excursion, etc.) of the passive radiator impacts the acoustical impedance and as a result it is not quite the same as an open port. Small impact (negligible) when in the linear region, bigger if you overdrive the radiator and the box starts acting in a quasi-sealed fashion. But for all practical purposes, yah, the same; just Don being anal, sorry.
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Is it cosmic? Does it fly?
Silly boy, hippopotami don't fly, pigs fly. I have pictures as proof, on the cover of Animals by Pink Floyd. So there!

Man, talk about derailing a thread...
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so from all the trained listening sessions at harman...what are the top 3 characteristics of the winning/favored speakers?

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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Dipoles such as the Maggies and MLs might well like the same location, but almost certainly would be different than it would be for the Revels. The big panel speakers could become passive radiators if left in the room.

All of this gets real out of control real fast. This is probably not workable or even close. I've been down this road comparing my ML Statements versus the big Sound labs and it was a hell of a lot of work. That's why i never did it a second time.

Fun to dream and discuss but just too much work.
I predict that blindly comparing dipoles to direct radiating speakers would be rather obvious which is which...but who knows. It would certainly be an interesting exercise. Electrostats especially usually throw such a deep but narrow soundstage. I personally haven't heard a direct radiating cone & dome speaker that has that same quality (my ears usually say shallower, but off axis highs still comparatively in-tact), though a few of them that cost major bucks can get close in depth if the room is right.

I have to admit that I am a fan of ML stats, but practical reasons keep me with cones & domes. I have three kids, and stats are just too enticing to climb on, poke things at, etc. Traditional tower speakers though are big black nothings, drawing no juvenile attention whatsoever. Other than the occasional smudge on the grills from some sticky fingered careening toddler, they get left alone.

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post #1708 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 01:34 PM
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Wouldn't these visual cues affect both speakers equally since they're in the same room so therefore not really a variable in how we rate the speakers against each other?
Yes, but once we test different types of otherwise constant directivity patterns the room is probably no longer a minor matter.

Markus

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post #1709 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
False conclusion. The room very much changes the perception of spaciousness depending on level, angle, delay and spectrum of first reflections. But, I was talking about how visual cues can take precedence over what we hear.
Understood, but keep in mind that in our test the speakers were moved into identical positions, so that factor was equalized. My room is neither dead nor live. First reflection points were treated with a mixture of absorption and diffusion.

So, while of course we can't account for every room situation, there is nothing unusual about my room compared to most home theater rooms I see.

As duc135 pointed out, there was no variability in the room, lighting, or speaker placement during each of the listening trials. And I was referring to Dr. Toole's statement that preference rankings did not change during his much more exhaustive tests, no matter where the speaker was placed in a room. The overall scores would go up or down based on room position, but the preference ratings stayed the same.

For example:

Speaker A Location One: Rating 7 out of 10
Speaker A Location Two: Rating 5 out of 10

Speaker B Location One: 5 out of 10
Speaker B Location Two: 3 out of 10

I'd find the relevant post, but as others have mentioned, this thread is getting really long and it's getting hard to find specific comments anymore
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post #1710 of 1751 Old 10-20-2017, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
so from all the trained listening sessions at harman...what are the top 3 characteristics of the winning/favored speakers?
Simple:

Neutrality (flat frequency response both on and off axis, as in no obvious colorations to the sound)
Wide dispersion (provided the off axis response is congruent with on axis response)
Freedom from audible resonances

Really, none of that should come as a surprise
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