Sub crossover for 2.0 demos? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 05:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Sub crossover for 2.0 demos?

If this needs to be placed in the bass section, will the mods please move it?

I am demoing new front bookshelves: Klipsch RP-160M's, JBL 230's, NHT SuperOnes and Chane A 1.4's.
They all play down to about 50 hZ give or take.

My crossover setting to the sub is set at 80hZ through my Yamaha RX-V675 receiver. So my understanding is that these speakers are not playing down to their actual lowest range. I want to test the new speakers and new speakers alone, so I am running in 2 ch stereo with the sub powered off, so it is 2.0. But even with the sub off, are my new speakers only playing down to the crossover setting of 80hZ? If so, in order to get the full range of the fronts should I go into the receiver software settings and remove the subwoofer? Problem with this is that it automatically sets the fronts to large towers with no way of changing it manually in the settings. Should I just set the crossover down to 40hZ for demoing purposes? What other options do I have?

The answers should help me determine how I'll play sports on TV in 5.0 with the fronts playing to full potential, but play music in 5.1 with crossover set to 80hZ. It just seems like I'll constantly be going into the receiver settings unless there is another way or if someone can shed some knowledge saying the crossover setting doesn't come into effect unless the sub is powered on.
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post #2 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 05:36 AM
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If you select Pure Direct mode the speakers play full range and sub shuts off.
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post #3 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 05:58 AM
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You are right in your thinking. Go into speaker settings and change the sub from YES to NO. This will disengage all bass management and change the front speakers from small to large.Now the front speakers will play the whole frequency range and the sub play nothing. You might want to turn off the EQ as well when you are demoing the speakers otherwise you will have to run the EQ set up every time you change the speakers.

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post #4 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 06:04 AM
 
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Unless you don't use subs I wouldn't test mains without them. What they do in the low end that you'll never hear doesn't matter. As for listening to sports in 5.0, I don't see the reason why. I use 5.1 for everything, even the weather.
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post #5 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Unless you don't use subs I wouldn't test mains without them. What they do in the low end that you'll never hear doesn't matter.
Exactly! As a CONSUMER not a professional reviewer or academic, you want to test speakers using whatever conditions or parameters are most consistent with YOUR actual listening/usage habits and preferences as possible.

For example, if you habitually listen in the 60-80db range with a sub, it's completely absurd IMO to base your speaker selection on how they sound at 90-100db without a sub.
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post #6 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Williams2 View Post
If you select Pure Direct mode the speakers play full range and sub shuts off.
Excellent info, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Unless you don't use subs I wouldn't test mains without them. What they do in the low end that you'll never hear doesn't matter. As for listening to sports in 5.0, I don't see the reason why. I use 5.1 for everything, even the weather.
Makes perfect sense, but this is a demo where I want to compare just the mains. A true head to head; no helpers such as the sub.

I listen to sports in 5.0 because the commercials get too boomy, and I have children who are still of napping age whose rooms are on the same side of the house as the family room where my HT is. Unfortunately naps are during football game times. I know it sounds oxymoronic to want my sub off because it's too boomy, but I want my front mains to play to full low end potential.
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post #7 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 07:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by matemike View Post
I listen to sports in 5.0 because the commercials get too boomy
I've never noticed that, but my system is never boomy, whatever the content.
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post #8 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matemike View Post
Excellent info, thanks.



Makes perfect sense, but this is a demo where I want to compare just the mains. A true head to head; no helpers such as the sub.

I listen to sports in 5.0 because the commercials get too boomy, and I have children who are still of napping age whose rooms are on the same side of the house as the family room where my HT is. Unfortunately naps are during football game times. I know it sounds oxymoronic to want my sub off because it's too boomy, but I want my front mains to play to full low end potential.
Your sub should not be boomy. Sub placement, having the gain on the sub to high or running a little hot in your AVR settings will cause boominess. Having dynamic eq on or the Yamaha equivalent will also boost the bass. I went through a lot of trial and error to find that out. Of course a lot of good advice and tips from this forum helped a lot.
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post #9 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matemike View Post
Excellent info, thanks.



Makes perfect sense, but this is a demo where I want to compare just the mains. A true head to head; no helpers such as the sub.

I listen to sports in 5.0 because the commercials get too boomy, and I have children who are still of napping age whose rooms are on the same side of the house as the family room where my HT is. Unfortunately naps are during football game times. I know it sounds oxymoronic to want my sub off because it's too boomy, but I want my front mains to play to full low end potential.
If your actual use is 5.0, then by all means, test in 5.0 as well, if you can. You'll also want to see how well your prospective speakers blend with your existing surrounds and center.
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post #10 of 12 Old 08-11-2017, 08:49 PM
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Use the Pure Direct setting so all the digital trickery is disengaged. Then test all the speakers. If you are going to be running them without the sub, then that is the best approach. Once you have selected the one you like best, then you can add the sub back and play with your crossover setting. Lastly, run the internal processing (YPAO).

That said, if you are going to be running 5.0 without the sub, then you will want to alter the sub (yes/no) setting each time, so the full signal gets to the speakers. If you have a macro-enabled remote, perhaps you can design a macro to make this process a bit more seamless.
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Last edited by RayGuy; 08-11-2017 at 09:12 PM.
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post #11 of 12 Old 08-12-2017, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matemike View Post
Excellent info, thanks.



Makes perfect sense, but this is a demo where I want to compare just the mains. A true head to head; no helpers such as the sub.

I listen to sports in 5.0 because the commercials get too boomy, and I have children who are still of napping age whose rooms are on the same side of the house as the family room where my HT is. Unfortunately naps are during football game times. I know it sounds oxymoronic to want my sub off because it's too boomy, but I want my front mains to play to full low end potential.
I tested speakers in 2.0; they only sound better in 2.1.

You want to try and level match the speaker volumes using an SPL meter or SPL app on your smartphone as, all things being equal, the louder speaker, (ie. more sensitive), will always sound "better" at a given volume setting on your AVR.

What sub are you using that is "boomy" and where is it placed in your room?

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post #12 of 12 Old 08-12-2017, 11:21 AM
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If you will usually be using a subwoofer, then you should demo the mains in conjunction with the sub. I say this because, if you demo the mains and evaluate mid bass frequency responses below your normal crossover frequency, then that mid bass assessment may be nullified once you go into X.1 mode. Since I alway use a sub, I find it more important to evaluate how well the mains work with the sub.

For instance, if brand X gets a slight edge in your audition because it has fuller sounding mid bass in 2.0 at the expense of slightly flat highs, then that mid bass advantage is eliminated one you enter 2.1 mode. You then have no mid bass advantage and slightly flat highs. Otherwise, Brand Y that has clearer mids and more detailed highs may be a preferable choice if the sub is usually doing the heavy lifting for the mid bass and lower ranges.

As an example only (my perceptions ) - For purely 2.0 music, I might prefer my previously owned Wharfedale Diamond 10.1's because they have some additional artificial warmth & punch in the mid bass range that would help compensate for the lack of deep bass from a quality sub. In this instance I would be sacrificing the detailed highs and clearer midrange that are generated from my Emotive Airmotiv B1s. Without a sub, the B1s are accurate, but not necessarily "full" in the mid bass range. To some the B1's accurate 2.0 mid bass performance may sound less full than speakers that are voiced to have additional punch. By combining the B1s with a quality sub, I get deep, punchy bass plus the benefits of more more clarity in the midrange and detail from the highs.

Since the subwoofer crossover is usually set at least 10 to 20 hz or more above the lower +- 3 db point of the mains, 80 hz is probably a fair starting point for auditions. It is more important to set the subwoofer trim to an appropriate level for each speaker tested. Find some jazz or blues tracks with walking basslines that reach fairly low. If the deepest bass notes are thunderous compared to the higher bass notes, then your subwoofer trim is too high. Once you reach a natural trim level for the sub, you can then experiment with crossover points from 50 to 80 hz.
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