Audyssey phase error -- does it matter? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darthray View Post
+1


And when doing so, only look at how the woofer and the radiator react, tweeter are too small to see.
My post on reply #26 , believing the radiator is the culprit, would definably confirm or show if the radiator is the problem.


Ray
So basically I should do the battery test and look for the woofer to act the opposite of the radiator? I guess that could be useful info... would confirm the radiator as possibly being the culprit.

The question I have though is... if it's in fact the radiator being read as out of phase by audyssey, wouldn't it always report it's out of phase?

I reversed the wires, and it passes audyssey now. Yet if the radiator is the issue, wouldn't it still cause audyssey errors? If it's the radiator, I'd assume it'd always report an out of phase error... yet audyssey isn't doing that.

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post #32 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Yeah, but what if the manufacturer purposely did the phase reversal thing? Wouldn't that mean whatever I get with the battery test would be useless?

I mean, if positive comes back negative... maybe that's actually correct for this model if the manufacturer purposely made it that way?

Not for a Tweeter/Woofer design, using a radiator to act like a bigger box, like most design now a day use ports for this.


Do the battery test, and rest easy.
Then re-run Audyssey.
At the beginning of this thread, I thought like some, it was a design option.


But once you mention, it was a speaker using a radiator, but all clear to me that your phase error is from the radiator, due to their design.


Like the Audyssey instructions guide, just click Ignore and carry on with your calibration.
Then Enjoy!


Ray
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post #33 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
So basically I should do the battery test and look for the woofer to act the opposite of the radiator? I guess that could be useful info... would confirm the radiator as possibly being the culprit.

The question I have though is... if it's in fact the radiator being read as out of phase by audyssey, wouldn't it always report it's out of phase?

I reversed the wires, and it passes audyssey now. Yet if the radiator is the issue, wouldn't it still cause audyssey errors? If it's the radiator, I'd assume it'd always report an out of phase error... yet audyssey isn't doing that.

A very good point, and have no answer since reading years back ago.
Some were having problem with a certain model/brand of speaker, and many others owning that same speaker, would have no phase issue with that problem.


Maybe the Gurus for the Audyssey can answer that.
The only think, I can think about, as to with Mic placement, room acoustic, a try-pod or boom Mic is use.
But this a shot in the dark on my part.


Like to pass on, what I know, but when I no clue, not afraid to say-it.


Ray
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post #34 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll do the battery thing tomorrow and play with it some, redo audyssey, see if I figure out anything.

Probably more work than needed for a speaker I may not end up even keeping, but now I'm sort of curious what's going on with it exactly.
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post #35 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
If they designed it that way on purpose, or were aware of audyssey issues due to the radiator, they could have possibly provided that info. But yeah, contacting the company was not of any help to me.
.
There is a different engineering team at Boston now -- not the same as the past. And that speaker was either before Audyssey or Audyssey just getting started around that time. That speaker was not really designed with Audyssey mentality in mind.

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post #36 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 07:53 PM
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If the speaker has been designed to be out of phase with itself, then it can never be in-phase with the rest of the speakers, except in that frequency range that is tested, where the driver that handles that range is in phase.

Who is to say that the in-phase driver (as tested by Audyssey) is the more important driver, sonically? Maybe the overall interaction with the rest of the speakers is negatively effected by forcing it to be in-phase, thus forcing the other drivers out of phase? My point is, your ears should be the arbiter of this issue, not Audyssey.

Does anyone know the frequency range used by Audyssey to test for phase? I know it's not Stereophile's barking dog ...


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post #37 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Dug around here a bit in an old thread, and found these comments:

A: "I have a Boston Acoustics VR10 center channel speaker. Audyssey set the crossover at 90 Hz. It's rated form 65-20,000Hz. Audyssey also complains cause it thinks the polarity is reversed on it. It's not."

B: "I had an untouched VR10 and the polarity was indeed reversed from the factory. The wire connections to the terminal plate were switched. I seem to recall there being some other mention of such wiring mishaps from BA."

A: "Wow. How do I know whether I should switch the polarity?"

A: "Well, I swapped the red and black speaker cables going into the VR10. Before doing so, I ran the pink noise test, and the center definitely sounded differently from my VR30 mains. After swapping, pink noise sounds very uniform with mains. It sure seems like it was wrong inside the speaker.

Still, I am not sure what the ramifications are if this is not the right hookup and my ears are playing tricks on me."
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post #38 of 53 Old 08-23-2017, 10:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zieglj01 View Post
There is a different engineering team at Boston now -- not the same as the past. And that speaker was either before Audyssey or Audyssey just getting started around that time. That speaker was not really designed with Audyssey mentality in mind.
Yeah, I didn't have high hopes Boston would help me, and was very doubtful anyone there still knew much about the VR10. Still... if it was a common issue they may have gotten calls about it in the past, so someone there may have known something ... at least in theory.
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post #39 of 53 Old 08-24-2017, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Yeah, but what if the manufacturer purposely did the phase reversal thing? Wouldn't that mean whatever I get with the battery test would be useless?

I mean, if positive comes back negative... maybe that's actually correct for this model if the manufacturer purposely made it that way?
Whichever produces the most perceived bass is the correct phase to use.

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post #40 of 53 Old 08-24-2017, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Whichever produces the most perceived bass is the correct phase to use.
Did the battery test, and as suspected, polarity is reversed. As for the bass thing, I want to say slightly more bass using the 'incorrect' polarity, but I won't dismiss the placebo effect either.

I didn't exactly do the most strenuous testing, left my fronts all connected, so the left/rights were doing their thing too. At least I turned off the sub... I sometimes forget just how big a difference a sub makes, even my oddball, boomy sub.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all the help here. Going to go with the reverse polarity wiring, figuring they just messed up somewhere. The earlier post someone made about " wiring mishaps from BA" kind of backs up that notion.

Speaker always sounded a bit off to me somewhere anyway. I just figured it was due to the weird radiator thing, but maybe it's because the thing was out of phase.
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post #41 of 53 Old 08-24-2017, 09:46 PM
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I have a VR12 that I used for a few months last year. I seem to remember getting the same phase error. I just ignored it and didn't think much of it. Also, I'm fairly new to this hobby and probably wouldn't notice it either way. Haha.

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post #42 of 53 Old 08-24-2017, 10:01 PM
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You can use an audio track to listen for phase if it is a higher frequency speaker. If testing a center channel I would run the L or R wire to the center to test and switch to stereo. You won't hear the difference if the sound is only playing from the center or it will be harder to hear vs stereo. That would be the litmus test for me. If it is out of phase you will be able to hear it easily using a track like that.

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post #43 of 53 Old 08-24-2017, 11:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
You can use an audio track to listen for phase if it is a higher frequency speaker. If testing a center channel I would run the L or R wire to the center to test and switch to stereo. You won't hear the difference if the sound is only playing from the center or it will be harder to hear vs stereo. That would be the litmus test for me. If it is out of phase you will be able to hear it easily using a track like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-kxtKGR2vY
Okay, that was sort of interesting.

I first checked bass again out of curiosity. This time I really couldn't tell much difference ... I think the radiator is radiating regardless of polarity.

But I did the above test, and also found a different one on youtube, and they showed the same thing:

If using the 'correct' polarity by manufacturer standards --
In phase plays more towards the left driver, out of phase from the mid-range driver.

If using the 'incorrect' polarity by manufacturer standards, (yet correct by audyssey) --
In phase plays more towards the mid-range driver, out of phase from the left.

And if anyone is confused, it's a 3-way, so that's why there is a middle driver. Left woofer, mid-range smaller woofer, and right full-size radiator.

I didn't really check which I preferred best with actual audio (getting late, sleepy, so didn't feel like going crazy with it).

Although I'm curious which is supposedly correct?
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post #44 of 53 Old 08-25-2017, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
Okay, that was sort of interesting.

I first checked bass again out of curiosity. This time I really couldn't tell much difference ... I think the radiator is radiating regardless of polarity.

But I did the above test, and also found a different one on youtube, and they showed the same thing:

If using the 'correct' polarity by manufacturer standards --
In phase plays more towards the left driver, out of phase from the mid-range driver.

If using the 'incorrect' polarity by manufacturer standards, (yet correct by audyssey) --
In phase plays more towards the mid-range driver, out of phase from the left.

And if anyone is confused, it's a 3-way, so that's why there is a middle driver. Left woofer, mid-range smaller woofer, and right full-size radiator.

I didn't really check which I preferred best with actual audio (getting late, sleepy, so didn't feel like going crazy with it).

Although I'm curious which is supposedly correct?
You need to play one of your left or right speakers with it. But you don't want a 3 LRC playing as it will be difficult to tell when having all 3 playing at the same time and you dont want just the center channel playing alone. That is why I said use the left or right speaker wire for the center. So say you use the left speaker connection for the center channel and then use the right speaker to make your "stereo" pair. You need to switch your AVR to STEREO also.

So if you did that and it is still hard to tell it could be because of the 2 very different speaker designs.

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post #45 of 53 Old 08-25-2017, 12:23 AM - Thread Starter
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So if you did that and it is still hard to tell it could be because of the 2 very different speaker designs.
Yeah, I did that. In fact I disabled all speakers except for my front two, hooked up the center to the left channel, and had the right tower still connected.

The test did provide some results... I just am not sure what to make of those results.
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post #46 of 53 Old 08-25-2017, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So if you did that and it is still hard to tell it could be because of the 2 very different speaker designs.
I did one followup test, which I should have thought of previously.

I also tested a regular 2-way center. In-phase the sound is fuller and centered, while out of phase sort of less full and to the left/background.

And that's exactly how the VR10 sounds if I reverse polarity on the wires.

So I'm pretty sure at this point that 'incorrect' wiring is the correct wiring for this thing. It also backs up my previous impression of the center.

Before I used audyssey I tested it with my regular no-EQ AVR. It sounded okay, but something always seemed a bit off to me (assumed it was a size issue or due to the radiator). Basically voices usually came across a bit recessed, not forward at all -- with the rare occasional centered/full voice (which sounded nice). But it seemed a bit wrong, like the main voices were recessed, while some background voices came in full/clearer. The speaker also had less bass than I expected + seemed 'smaller' than it should have in fullness.

The phase thing could explain a lot of that.

On the rare chance anyone else stumbles across this thread and wants to check their VR speakers, I also found this test helpful:

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post #47 of 53 Old 08-25-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I did one followup test, which I should have thought of previously.

I also tested a regular 2-way center. In-phase the sound is fuller and centered, while out of phase sort of less full and to the left/background.

And that's exactly how the VR10 sounds if I reverse polarity on the wires.

So I'm pretty sure at this point that 'incorrect' wiring is the correct wiring for this thing. It also backs up my previous impression of the center.

Before I used audyssey I tested it with my regular no-EQ AVR. It sounded okay, but something always seemed a bit off to me (assumed it was a size issue or due to the radiator). Basically voices usually came across a bit recessed, not forward at all -- with the rare occasional centered/full voice (which sounded nice). But it seemed a bit wrong, like the main voices were recessed, while some background voices came in full/clearer. The speaker also had less bass than I expected + seemed 'smaller' than it should have in fullness.

The phase thing could explain a lot of that.

On the rare chance anyone else stumbles across this thread and wants to check their VR speakers, I also found this test helpful:
Good find! Yeah, that really helps. I just tried it for the heck of it and the video makes it easy to hear/tell when it is out of phase.

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post #48 of 53 Old 08-27-2017, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe Doe View Post
I did one followup test, which I should have thought of previously.

I also tested a regular 2-way center. In-phase the sound is fuller and centered, while out of phase sort of less full and to the left/background.

And that's exactly how the VR10 sounds if I reverse polarity on the wires.

So I'm pretty sure at this point that 'incorrect' wiring is the correct wiring for this thing. It also backs up my previous impression of the center.

Before I used audyssey I tested it with my regular no-EQ AVR. It sounded okay, but something always seemed a bit off to me (assumed it was a size issue or due to the radiator). Basically voices usually came across a bit recessed, not forward at all -- with the rare occasional centered/full voice (which sounded nice). But it seemed a bit wrong, like the main voices were recessed, while some background voices came in full/clearer. The speaker also had less bass than I expected + seemed 'smaller' than it should have in fullness.

The phase thing could explain a lot of that.

On the rare chance anyone else stumbles across this thread and wants to check their VR speakers, I also found this test helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUT6ZhFdLkA
So, bottom line is that this speaker is purposely out of phase with itself AND was wired incorrectly at the +/- terminal?


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Last edited by RayGuy; 08-27-2017 at 09:32 PM.
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post #49 of 53 Old 08-27-2017, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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So, bottom line is that this speaker is purposely out of phase with itself AND was wired incorrectly at the +/- terminal?

Not so sure about the 'purposely' part, but apparently it was wired incorrectly. In an earlier post in the Boston thread here someone commented on wiring mishaps with BA, perhaps that had something to do with it.
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post #50 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 08:30 AM
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Recently acquired a VR10, and also received an Out Of Phase message when using the YPAO feature on my Yamaha receiver. If I intentionally swap + and - connections, the phase error goes away.
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post #51 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 09:52 AM
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Recently acquired a VR10, and also received an Out Of Phase message when using the YPAO feature on my Yamaha receiver. If I intentionally swap + and - connections, the phase error goes away.
If that's the case, you may have inverted them at either the AVR side or speaker side. Make sure both sides are properly connected. NOTE: This is a common error with audyssey so if your sure they're properly wired, ignore and run YPAO.

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post #52 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 10:09 AM
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If that's the case, you may have inverted them at either the AVR side or speaker side. Make sure both sides are properly connected. NOTE: This is a common error with audyssey so if your sure they're properly wired, ignore and run YPAO.

Yes the speaker was wired correctly. First thing I checked. Not sure if you read back through this thread, but the entire discussion is about whether or not Boston Acoustics intentionally wired the VR12 and VR10 out of phase to compensate for either the crossover, or the use of a passive radiator; or that BA made a mistake during production (on a grand scale). Multiple people in this thread have reported the same out of phase error that I experienced. Am simply reporting the same situation on my VR10.



I left my VR10 connected IAW the markings on the speaker, so + to + and - to -, and simply ignore the YPAO out of phase message.
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post #53 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 12:13 PM
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Real phase issues are issues to deal with, but just wanted to throw out that I also got this audyssey error from room reflections in my previous home. Position 1, my mlp, was on a couch backed to the wall and I had the mic, just peaking over the couch. I threw a folded dish towel against the back wall, so absorbing highs just in a very small area of direct reflection and the error cleared. When I first set up in there I ran several times as we were putting the room together and this was 100% repeatable. I think the mic position to back wall was something like 8- 10 inches, so reflection was just enough off of the direct path to confuse the audyssey processor.
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