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post #1 of 9 Old 12-29-2017, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Question 5.1.2 Atmos w/ low ceiling and open concept

I'm finishing my basement which will be mostly dedicated to HT use with 5.1.2 atmos, but decided to open it up to have room for a bar and exercise equipment. I've attached the plans, and am open to making some small tweaks, but am sticking with the open concept (per wife). Since there's no rear wall, I'm struggling to figure out the optimal rear speaker situation.

Ive already purchased the following:
- 2x Klipsch RF-82 II towers for fronts
- Klipsch RC-62 II center
- SVS PB12-NSD sub

1. Where should I place the rear speakers? My local HT store insists ceiling rears would be best for ideal placement, but everything I read says this is a horrible idea with Atmos. I've labeled two spots A and B which I think might work well and not be too intrusive. I'm concerned A might be closer to side speakers then rear. I also have a 1' steel beam hanging down from the ceiling going over the bar and to the stairwell which speakers could be mounted to, but it seems that will be way too high per dolby spec. I'm planning on 3'-3'6" rear speaker height, and will either wall mount or use stands depending on speaker size.

2. Would in wall speakers in the side wall (with tweeters aimed toward listening position) be possible for rears here? Any major cons? I was eyeing HTD speakers, but I know Klipsch makes some also.

3. What about dipoles / bipoles? Would they be a better choice if I go with position A? I noticed the "matching" Klipsch's are all bipoles, but read that its non-ideal for atmos.

4. The ceiling in this room is only 6'8". Is there any feature I should look for in ceiling speakers to help make up for the low height? I'm thinking aimable tweeters might help. I've been eyeing the HTDs or RSLs.

5. Any other specific speakers recommendations? I'm aiming to spend ~$500 for rears / atmos, but am flexible. How important is it going to be match the fronts?

Thanks for the help!
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post #2 of 9 Old 12-29-2017, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor15 View Post
I'm finishing my basement which will be mostly dedicated to HT use with 5.1.2 atmos, but decided to open it up to have room for a bar and exercise equipment. I've attached the plans, and am open to making some small tweaks, but am sticking with the open concept (per wife). Since there's no rear wall, I'm struggling to figure out the optimal rear speaker situation.

Ive already purchased the following:
- 2x Klipsch RF-82 II towers for fronts
- Klipsch RC-62 II center
- SVS PB12-NSD sub

1. Where should I place the rear speakers? My local HT store insists ceiling rears would be best for ideal placement, but everything I read says this is a horrible idea with Atmos. I've labeled two spots A and B which I think might work well and not be too intrusive. I'm concerned A might be closer to side speakers then rear. I also have a 1' steel beam hanging down from the ceiling going over the bar and to the stairwell which speakers could be mounted to, but it seems that will be way too high per dolby spec. I'm planning on 3'-3'6" rear speaker height, and will either wall mount or use stands depending on speaker size.

2. Would in wall speakers in the side wall (with tweeters aimed toward listening position) be possible for rears here? Any major cons? I was eyeing HTD speakers, but I know Klipsch makes some also.

3. What about dipoles / bipoles? Would they be a better choice if I go with position A? I noticed the "matching" Klipsch's are all bipoles, but read that its non-ideal for atmos.

4. The ceiling in this room is only 6'8". Is there any feature I should look for in ceiling speakers to help make up for the low height? I'm thinking aimable tweeters might help. I've been eyeing the HTDs or RSLs.

5. Any other specific speakers recommendations? I'm aiming to spend ~$500 for rears / atmos, but am flexible. How important is it going to be match the fronts?

Thanks for the help!
Your placement options aren't bad, while you could do in-walls, having the adjustability of a bookshelf on a stand might be a good thing here. If you did decide on in-walls, use position B
For bookshelves, position B for mono-poles, A for bi-poles.
As far as bi-poles and Atmos, while they aren't officially recommended, this recommendation has to do mostly with the object based sounds, but since most of the sound in your ear level 5 are still channel based, it's really not a big compromise. (I use all bi-poles in my ear level, with no noticeable accuracy issues at all)

I wouldn't worry about aimable tweeters for the in-ceilings, just place them properly. Surrounds in position B use the middle of the TM angle guideline, Surrounds in position A, use the forward angles for TM from the guidelines, basically just giving you a little more division from the surrounds.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
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Last edited by ALtlOff; 12-29-2017 at 03:11 PM.
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post #3 of 9 Old 12-29-2017, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALtlOff View Post
For bookshelves, position B for mono-poles, A for bi-poles.
Cool. I'm leaning towards position A with bi-poles, mainly because I think that would be a much unobtrusive location, as long as it doesn't sacrifice too much with sound. I realized I could probably push the couch forward a few feet also since my current TV is only 55". Dumb question but I assume the bipoles should mount flat on the wall and not be angled (like bookshelves would in position B)?

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Surrounds in position B use the middle of the TM angle guideline, Surrounds in position A, use the forward angles for TM from the guidelines, basically just giving you a little more division from the surrounds.
Interesting, I hadn't thought about the angle. I was planning on wiring for 7.2.4 in case I upgrade my AVR down the line. It looks like the max x.x.4 angle is 55 degrees and min x.x.2 angle is 65 degrees. Perhaps I'll move the couch a bit forward and aim for the lower angles, then in the future if I add a PJ and 5.2.4 I can push the couch back?

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post #4 of 9 Old 12-29-2017, 05:21 PM
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Interesting, I hadn't thought about the angle. I was planning on wiring for 7.2.4 in case I upgrade my AVR down the line. It looks like the max x.x.4 angle is 55 degrees and min x.x.2 angle is 65 degrees. Perhaps I'll move the couch a bit forward and aim for the lower angles, then in the future if I add a PJ and 5.2.4 I can push the couch back?
5.2.4 or 7.2.4 won't matter for the .4, that's all based off your seating, so once that's set, you'll be fine.
Just get them somewhere in the TF/TR angles.

*Warning* None of my suggestions, ideas or even thoughts have any WAF, in any way!
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post #5 of 9 Old 12-30-2017, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm thinking of going with going with

Rears: HTD L2 Surrounds (switchable bi/dipole)
Heights: HD R65 in ceiling

They seem to be a good bang for the buck, and the amount of use the Heights will get, I'm wondering I'll really notice the difference versus the RSLs.

Any other speakers I should check out?
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post #6 of 9 Old 12-30-2017, 10:29 PM
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Definitely wire for 7.1.4, and definitely use at least four heights, regardless. I just built up a 5.1.2 system, was not so impressed with the 3D sound imaging, and ending up upgrading the amp and going to 7.1.4.

100% worth the update. I was finding that 3D audio "image" placement cues were missing consistently with 5.1.2, but are far more cohesive with 7.1.4. The gaps I could hear on 5.1.2 make for a less than ideal ATMOS experience as your ears/brain may not like having to connect the dots between what you're seeing and hearing. Basically it went from "meh", to amazing with those four extra channels...
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post #7 of 9 Old 12-31-2017, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctor15 View Post
I'm leaning towards position A with bi-poles, mainly because I think that would be a much unobtrusive location, as long as it doesn't sacrifice too much with sound.
Wall mounted bi-pole speakers spray sound evenly in a wide 180-degree dispersion pattern. Would make sense to use them IF you were mounting those speakers between two rows of listeners. But you'll be wasting all that energy in the kitchenette and exercise area. Instead, I would put monopoles in position A and aim all the energy from the speakers towards the seating area. You don't need coverage anywhere else in the room.

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post #8 of 9 Old 01-03-2018, 05:05 AM
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I’ve been experimenting with dipoles vs monopoles in my surround wide position (your A), and I prefer the monopoles. All of the other 9 channels are monopoles. I tried the dipoles (Paradigm monitors) to see if the would fill out the sound field field a bit, which they do, but at the cost of the 3d audio object precision during fore/aft sweeps.

Keep all your surrounds around 40-42” from the floor. Installing rear surrounds in your ceiling will make correct 3d object rendering with ATMOS objects impossible, particularly with your low ceiling.

My ceiling is like yours, around 80”. The ceiling ATMOS (after many hours of testing different configurations) Sound best with 4 speakers, where the fronts are about 65 and rears closer to 125. Definitely follow this diagram for your wiring:



How important is it to match the fronts for the ceiling? Not very much IMHO if you’re using Audyssey to set up. I have two Paradigm H65R speakers for ceiling ATMOS fronts, and am using two Cinesats (Sound Dynamics) firing downwards for the rear ceiling ATMOS. As long as crossovers are set correctly in your Audyssey calibration, you’re good. That said, aiming for 6.5” to 8” drivers for your ceiling ( and setting crossovers at 60-90 Hz depending) will fill out ATMOS effects more naturally. The Paradigm H65Rs in their dampened/sealed backer boxes work very well...not as thrilled with the Cinesats with their 4” drivers.

One thing I did find with the 5.2.2 setup which used five matched Paradigm Millenia 30s, and two H65R ceiling (in sealed 32 litre volume backer boxes) was that multichannel stereo sounded about perfect for music. Now with a 7.2.4 setup, multichannel stereo for music tends to shift the sound field rearward due likely to the eight speakers biased to the rear of the room. Something to think about if your interest is more in the music area.

Last edited by dennwood; 01-03-2018 at 05:41 AM.
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post #9 of 9 Old 01-09-2018, 12:51 PM
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A few pics showing how I dealt with the sides, top middle ceiling (color matched grills) and rear heights. My ceiling is only 80 inches or so. I had Paradigm dipoles for side surrounds, and returned them. The Polk RC65i (in-wall) has an aimable tweeter, (white grills for now until I spray them) so although the wides are forward of where they should be, it sounds great. The ceiling speakers should have been installed a few feet forward for 7.2.4, however i had started with 5.1.2. Lesson learned. As it is, the rear heights and top middle provide excellent sound imaging at the MLP.

This speaker box hangs off one of the absorber panels, and replicates the 10 degree angle I have on the opposite wall over the fireplace..the tweeters are aimed at MLP. These wides are mounted a bit high, but the fireplace on the right was mounted a bit high by design..so forced the elevation on the wide speakers.


The wide surround in-wall speaker "hiding" above the fireplace. It will be painted grey to match the wall colour.



The mass of ugly you see here will all be hidden shortly. Stopping to listen/test/tweak and add channels was the right plan now, vs later as I've drilled holes, beat up walls etc. changing things up. Needless to say, the 3D sound imaging is outstanding at this point. My cat had to leave today during a few intense ATMOS demo clips as she was going nuts trying to localise the sounds moving around the room.




Last edited by dennwood; 01-09-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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