LS50 vs Q150 audition - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 87 Old 06-29-2018, 06:47 PM
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My LS50 desktop speakers are pointed almost straight ahead, and that's after much experimenting with different toe-in angles. It such a slight angle it's undetectable to most anyone but an engineer.

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post #32 of 87 Old 07-04-2018, 05:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Alrighty I changed the thread title since the Q100 are now in the mix, no real surprises with them, like many have said they are a bit on the bright side and I agree, the measurements also show the same. The easiest way to describe the differences would be that the Q100 emphasize the highs and are definitely the brightest of the 3. The Q150 and LS50 sound very similar with the LS50 having more detail from about 2-5K but the Q150 have a very similar midrange sound compared to the LS50. The Q100 also have the least bass response in my room, probably because of the front port. The Q150 and LS50 driver also look identical, I'm just speculating but I would bet that they are pretty much the same driver, the crossover is probably the main difference.

So in conclusion, I'd say the Q100 are good speakers, I'd mainly use them for surrounds since vocals sound a little unnatural due to the brightness. The Q150 sound more neutral and are very smooth through the midrange, they also have the best bass response of all 3 speakers. The LS50 are definitely the best of the bunch, slightly smoother than the Q150 through the midrange, just the right amount of detail over the Q150 and a much better cabinet and build quality over the other 2.

Just some notes on the measurements, these are all taken with a 100Hz 2nd order high pass so the bass is a bit rolled off but the relative differences won't change. I measured each speaker (left and right separately) in 3 different positions around my main listening position so each graph is the average of 6 measurements.
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post #33 of 87 Old 07-04-2018, 05:12 PM
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Why don't you get R300 ? It will be replaced and it's on sale, I think you can get around $1000 USD if you negotiate with the sales person.

They told me R300 uses the same tweeter/mid as blade speakers, LS50 tweeter/mids are lower grade, but LS50s have the better cabinets according to salesperson.

So I guess in the end because LS50s have the better cabinets it closes the gap, you really have to listen and pick what you like.

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post #34 of 87 Old 07-04-2018, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by canadian411 View Post
Why don't you get R300 ? It will be replaced and it's on sale, I think you can get around $1000 USD if you negotiate with the sales person.

They told me R300 uses the same tweeter/mid as blade speakers, LS50 tweeter/mids are lower grade, but LS50s have the better cabinets according to salesperson.

So I guess in the end because LS50s have the better cabinets it closes the gap, you really have to listen and pick what you like.
In that case why not just get the Blades or the Reference lol? It's just money right? Actually, the R300 are very intriguing to me but I really don't like the finishes on the R series for one, also I like 3 identical front speakers so I would more than likely grab 3 R200c if I went with the R series.
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post #35 of 87 Old 07-04-2018, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by canadian411 View Post
Why don't you get R300 ? It will be replaced and it's on sale, I think you can get around $1000 USD if you negotiate with the sales person.

They told me R300 uses the same tweeter/mid as blade speakers, LS50 tweeter/mids are lower grade, but LS50s have the better cabinets according to salesperson.

So I guess in the end because LS50s have the better cabinets it closes the gap, you really have to listen and pick what you like.
Who is the "they" who told you the LS50 uses a lower grade Uni-Q driver? It was Johan Coorg of KEF who had said the LS50 and R500 have the same Uni-Q driver, though crossovers are different because the R500 is a 3-way with twin LF drivers. I would be assuming, but the Uni-Q driver of the R300 should also be the same one used in the LS50. I'm fairly certain the Blade and Blade 2 get MUCH higher quality Uni-Q drivers. They don't even look the same as R series.

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post #36 of 87 Old 07-04-2018, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Who is the "they" who told you the LS50 uses a lower grade Uni-Q driver? It was Johan Coorg of KEF who had said the LS50 and R500 have the same Uni-Q driver, though crossovers are different because the R500 is a 3-way with twin LF drivers. I would be assuming, but the Uni-Q driver of the R300 should also be the same one used in the LS50. I'm fairly certain the Blade and Blade 2 get MUCH higher quality Uni-Q drivers. They don't even look the same as R series.
Hey Ken, not to derail my own thread lol, but I see you have R500 as well, how do you compare them with the LS50 for music in stereo? Do you think a 3 way gives up some of the magic of having all of the sound coming from a single point source or do you not notice a difference in that area?
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post #37 of 87 Old 07-05-2018, 03:24 AM
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Hey Ken, not to derail my own thread lol, but I see you have R500 as well, how do you compare them with the LS50 for music in stereo? Do you think a 3 way gives up some of the magic of having all of the sound coming from a single point source or do you not notice a difference in that area?
Here's the deal: I listen to the LS50's as near-field monitors, desktop. In this situation they're at their best, IMO. Soundstage is far more compact of course, though the definition seems better.

My R500's are in my living room as part of a 5.1 (soon 5.1.2) system. Being closer to each other and the R200c than they really should be, it's a very smooth front end for movies. When I listen to 2.1 music from the same listening position, it's just not as good as my desktop system.

When I take the time to move to a spot 5 or 6 feet from them, and centered, that's a game changer. In that situation, the R500 can be used as 2.0 for best effect, and then they absolutely smash the LS50's. Suddenly the soundstage is shifted to have extreme depth and breadth. It extends from being well behind to out in front of the actual speakers and though centered, also seemingly out far beyond their boundaries left and right.

Sitting in the right place and with the R500's face at 29" (0.8m) from the rear wall, these speakers can give quite a chill. This is really how they should be used, it's just not practical for me. There is absolutely no penalty in them being a 3-way, and in this listening position they're definitely better than the LS50's to my ears.
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post #38 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 04:38 AM
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Who is the "they" who told you the LS50 uses a lower grade Uni-Q driver? It was Johan Coorg of KEF who had said the LS50 and R500 have the same Uni-Q driver, though crossovers are different because the R500 is a 3-way with twin LF drivers. I would be assuming, but the Uni-Q driver of the R300 should also be the same one used in the LS50. I'm fairly certain the Blade and Blade 2 get MUCH higher quality Uni-Q drivers. They don't even look the same as R series.
Is that right ? so I am not informed properly, "they" as saleperson. He said KEF Blade 2 UniQ Driver is the exact same driver as R300. That's why I was leaning towards R300 than LS50s.

I never heard R300 but based on KEF Blade 2 listening I was sold on R300 mids/trebles. If LS50 has better mids/trebles than R300 then I have to look something other than KEFs as I was not impressed with LS50s.

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post #39 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 06:04 AM
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The Uni-Q driver in the Reference series and Blade/Blade 2 are the same.

In the current R series, I do think the mids and treble is a bit more laid-back than the LS50. The most direct comparison to me would be the LS50 to R100, as both are a single driver and it's the same one in both. The main differences then become the cabinet and the crossover. Look at the differences in the two plots and perhaps you can see how the LS50's deeper cabinet, improved port configuration, but primarily curved front baffle improves off-axis performance of the tweeter and affords deeper bass. The LS50 is a speaker which many people prefer to listen to slightly off-axis, and I am one. On axis, it can be a little "too truthful" for some ears.

Using the same Uni-Q driver in the R300 means it would be crossed over to the woofer sooner. The larger cabinet with the Uni-Q driver higher should mean a little more laid-back performance of the tweeter, and more pronounced mid-range into mid-bass from the large woofer. This is similar to what I find with my R500 speakers. I can be directly on-axis and not feel the same about them as the LS50. I think you'd really like the R300 for this reason.
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post #40 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes that makes sense, the Blade/R300 midrange unit doesn't need to be as stiff since it's not producing any deep bass which probably aids in it's midrange performance. I was surprised you prefer the R500 so easily over the LS50 since the highs are so different, the 2-5k region is slightly elevated in the LS50 and slightly recessed in the R500 so they will be a bit laid back in comparison. I am definitely one that gets fatigued by bright speakers but the LS50 seem to have an almost perfect amount of highs without being fatiguing to my ears.
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post #41 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 08:09 AM
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Is that right ? so I am not informed properly, "they" as saleperson. He said KEF Blade 2 UniQ Driver is the exact same driver as R300. That's why I was leaning towards R300 than LS50s.

I never heard R300 but based on KEF Blade 2 listening I was sold on R300 mids/trebles. If LS50 has better mids/trebles than R300 then I have to look something other than KEFs as I was not impressed with LS50s.
i would like to interject :always take sales rap from a sales rep with a BIG grain of salt.. you are likely to be more informed if you spend any time researching the product on AVS..... best of luck...
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post #42 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 08:46 AM
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i would like to interject :always take sales rap from a sales rep with a BIG grain of salt.. you are likely to be more informed if you spend any time researching the product on AVS..... best of luck...
LOL SalesRap, ! indeed !
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Is that right ? so I am not informed properly, "they" as saleperson. He said KEF Blade 2 UniQ Driver is the exact same driver as R300. That's why I was leaning towards R300 than LS50s.

I never heard R300 but based on KEF Blade 2 listening I was sold on R300 mids/trebles. If LS50 has better mids/trebles than R300 then I have to look something other than KEFs as I was not impressed with LS50s.
I was not impressed with ls50 eaither when compared with R300. But when a sub was added, ls50 beat R300 with or without sub handidly. It is in a different class but itself, more like reference speaker except with less bass that can be provided by a sub.

But if after adding a sub, you still don't like ls50, then definitely move on.

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post #44 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 10:57 AM
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Is that right ? so I am not informed properly, "they" as saleperson. He said KEF Blade 2 UniQ Driver is the exact same driver as R300. That's why I was leaning towards R300 than LS50s.

I never heard R300 but based on KEF Blade 2 listening I was sold on R300 mids/trebles. If LS50 has better mids/trebles than R300 then I have to look something other than KEFs as I was not impressed with LS50s.
I talked with head of r&d at Kef. Ls50, r300 and blade all speakers are different. Ls50 is similar to blade but not the same. So don't listen to sales rep.

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post #45 of 87 Old 07-06-2018, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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I was not impressed with ls50 eaither when compared with R300. But when a sub was added, ls50 beat R300 with or without sub handidly. It is in a different class but itself, more like reference speaker except with less bass that can be provided by a sub.

But if after adding a sub, you still don't like ls50, then definitely move on.

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This is why I always try to negate the bass advantages between speakers that I'm auditioning by using a crossover without the subs on, most people end up preferring a speaker that sounds more "full" or has more bass in other words. Also, with the Kef 2 ways, it's very important to keep the cone excursion down since it's acting as a waveguide for the tweeter and is very susceptible to intermodulation distortion. I find 100Hz to be perfect in my smallish room, in cases like Ken's nearfield setup I'm sure 80Hz would be fine.
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post #46 of 87 Old 07-07-2018, 11:59 AM
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Looks like LS50 and Q150 use the famous BBC Dip whereas Q100s doesn't and are much flatter!

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Looks like LS50 and Q150 use the famous BBC Dip whereas Q100s doesn't and are much flatter!
Heh, that would explain why I preferred the LS50 over the Q100. (Haven't heard the Q150.)
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This is why I always try to negate the bass advantages between speakers that I'm auditioning by using a crossover without the subs on, most people end up preferring a speaker that sounds more "full" or has more bass in other words. Also, with the Kef 2 ways, it's very important to keep the cone excursion down since it's acting as a waveguide for the tweeter and is very susceptible to intermodulation distortion. I find 100Hz to be perfect in my smallish room, in cases like Ken's nearfield setup I'm sure 80Hz would be fine.
Great. That should work, just watch out for cross over freq. slope. Because with that R300 or ls50 may still get frequencies below cross over point Did you say that you liked R300 in this set up?

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post #49 of 87 Old 07-07-2018, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks like LS50 and Q150 use the famous BBC Dip whereas Q100s doesn't and are much flatter!
That's just going off of a steady state in room curve, which should only be used to make conclusions relative to each other. If you check the Anechoic response of the LS50, there is no BBC dip. In actual listening sessions I think most people would say the LS50 is best followed by Q150 then Q100 as it really should be.
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post #50 of 87 Old 07-07-2018, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Great. That should work, just watch out for cross over freq. slope. Because with that R300 or ls50 may still get frequencies below cross over point Did you say that you liked R300 in this set up?

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Yup I can do 2nd or 4th order slopes but I use a 2nd order high pass at 100Hz. I have the LS50, I haven't heard the R300, only the R500 but with dual subs I'm not giving up any bass over one of the bigger models.
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Yup I can do 2nd or 4th order slopes but I use a 2nd order high pass at 100Hz. I have the LS50, I haven't heard the R300, only the R500 but with dual subs I'm not giving up any bass over one of the bigger models.
Here is another thought that I shared with canadian411:

You may feel differently if a sub is included. I did.

Even though I felt ls50 had enough bass for me, it did not impress me when compared with several other speakers. But once a sub is engaged with all tested speakers, LS50 just jumped out as the best speaker. Cleaner, most natural with incredible transparency. So may be audition it again, but this time with a sub (unless you do not want to use a sub at home)

I think absence of bass did play a trick on my sound quality percention. I am not sure but the reason could be that our brains want to see balanced out put. Spekers that are lacking in deep bass will start to sound too bright but will sound natural when sufficient deep bass is present . So without sufficient bass, we tend to prefer speakers with limited treble extension. Just a guess...

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post #53 of 87 Old 07-08-2018, 08:32 AM
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I think absence of bass did play a trick on my sound quality percention. I am not sure but the reason could be that our brains want to see balanced out put. Spekers that are lacking in deep bass will start to sound too bright but will sound natural when sufficient deep bass is present . So without sufficient bass, we tend to prefer speakers with limited treble extension. Just a guess...
Agree completely.

Speakers with little bass to my ears tend to sound "thin" rather than "bright" but with a sub, they immediately spring to life. Ascend 170, RBH R5Bi and Sony Core bookshelves all come to mind.

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Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post

I think absence of bass did play a trick on my sound quality percention. I am not sure but the reason could be that our brains want to see balanced out put. Spekers that are lacking in deep bass will start to sound too bright but will sound natural when sufficient deep bass is present . So without sufficient bass, we tend to prefer speakers with limited treble extension. Just a guess...

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Absence of bass definitely plays a role in speaker preference, which is why I like to negate any advantages between the two. Harmans formula for speaker preference has the bass performance at about 33% of the overall preference, which is huge.
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post #55 of 87 Old 07-08-2018, 09:30 AM
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I saw a video where KEF's Jack Oclee-Brown talks about the different drivers and variations of the drivers.

LS50 is trickled down from Blade (also the cabinet as well) and is a better driver than R series. Blade > Reference > LS50 > R Series > Q Series

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post #56 of 87 Old 07-08-2018, 01:01 PM
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Absence of bass definitely plays a role in speaker preference, which is why I like to negate any advantages between the two. Harmans formula for speaker preference has the bass performance at about 33% of the overall preference, which is huge.
I see what you are saying and it makes sense.

What I was pointing out was that you may make a different selection for a speaker when you test them with a sub compared to without a sub.

But test for yourself by auditioning the same two speakers with a sub and see if you prefer a different speaker.

Do let us know if what you find.

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post #57 of 87 Old 07-08-2018, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
I see what you are saying and it makes sense.

What I was pointing out was that you may make a different selection for a speaker when you test them with a sub compared to without a sub.

But test for yourself by auditioning the same two speakers with a sub and see if you prefer a different speaker.

Do let us know if what you find.

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I know what you meant and I've done that. With the three Kefs I used the sub with them because their bass performance was similar enough that all blended with the subs just fine but in cases where the bass is a lot different I use a crossover without the subs on to try and reduce any bass advantage since that will sway my opinion. Some people don't agree with listening that way but I've got my subs flat to +/- about 1.5 decibels from 20-100Hz so I'm really not worried about bass performance of any speakers I audition.
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post #58 of 87 Old 07-08-2018, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post
I know what you meant and I've done that. With the three Kefs I used the sub with them because their bass performance was similar enough that all blended with the subs just fine but in cases where the bass is a lot different I use a crossover without the subs on to try and reduce any bass advantage since that will sway my opinion. Some people don't agree with listening that way but I've got my subs flat to +/- about 1.5 decibels from 20-100Hz so I'm really not worried about bass performance of any speakers I audition.
How did you rate the performance of three KEFs when you tested them with a sub. What you liked in which speaker?

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post #59 of 87 Old 07-09-2018, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V View Post
I saw a video where KEF's Jack Oclee-Brown talks about the different drivers and variations of the drivers.

LS50 is trickled down from Blade (also the cabinet as well) and is a better driver than R series. Blade > Reference > LS50 > R Series > Q Series
Do you have the link ?

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post #60 of 87 Old 07-09-2018, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernCA View Post
How did you rate the performance of three KEFs when you tested them with a sub. What you liked in which speaker?

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Sorry I should have been more clear in my post, since they were all similar in bass I did use a sub with them crossed over at 100Hz, so the main differences I was comparing with my post above is 100Hz and up performance of each model. I measured them without the sub just to show relative differences in the bass but I did use a sub when listening.
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