ELAC Announces Debut 2.0 Speakers - Page 50 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1471 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 02:16 PM
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I rather doubt that removing the tweeter grille on the 2.0 will really improve things, but perhaps others have tired it here.

I removed the tweeter grills and heard very little difference. There was just a tad more treble in the voicing, but it was so small I questioned whether or not I even heard a difference. But tweeters shouldn't have additional grills, especially cage grills, IMO. The main grills though are horrible and ultimately a deal breaker for me. They don't need to be high quality or imaginative, but they need to be practical and logical in design and they're not. Having the drivers project through fairly thick plastic webbing is not acceptable. They should only be projecting through the grill cloth itself. And they are ridiculously hard and awkward to get on and off.


The Marimbas have the most unimaginative grills you can design, but they're extremely practical in that not only do they make a tight seal around the chamber between the grill cloth and the speaker/drivers (to keep out dust), the grill only holds from the edges the grill cloth that goes over the whole front of the speakers, so the drivers only project through the grill cloth (even at wide angles).


The Wharfdale Diamond 200 series also has good grills in that the drivers only project through the cloth. They're simple and cheap -- yes, but they serve their function well and are also fairly easy to get on an off.


Elac, if you're reading this, please put more thought into the grills for future lines of speakers or if you do a Debut 3.0 at some point.

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post #1472 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 03:23 PM
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I've pulled the mesh screen off the tweeter on both Debut lines. It comes off really easy and it just slides back in place. It's completely reversible. Not much difference, IMO. AJ himself talks about the differences between grill off and grill on in the Joe 'N Tell video.

FWIW, it made more difference in the older debut than the newer one. However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, I find both speakers LOOK much better with the tweeter grill off. The extra (negligible?) clarity is just a bonus.

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post #1473 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 03:26 PM
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The Wharfdale Diamond 200 series also has good grills in that the drivers only project through the cloth. They're simple and cheap -- yes, but they serve their function well and are also fairly easy to get on an off.
As a counterpoint to this, Stereophile showed the difference between grill on and grill off to be rather dramatic in the 225. As a rule, I always take any grills off and only put them on when I'm out of town or have company over.

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post #1474 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 03:28 PM
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How are the woofers? Springy and punchy?
Probably somewhere in between Elac and Wharfedale as far as punchiness goes. The detail and texture, OTOH, is noticeably better than either (as it should be for the price.)

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post #1475 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 03:52 PM
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I've pulled the mesh screen off the tweeter on both Debut lines. It comes off really easy and it just slides back in place. It's completely reversible. Not much difference, IMO. AJ himself talks about the differences between grill off and grill on in the Joe 'N Tell video.

FWIW, it made more difference in the older debut than the newer one. However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, I find both speakers LOOK much better with the tweeter grill off. The extra (negligible?) clarity is just a bonus.
The originals do indeed show a bit of improvement with the tweeter grill off. But honestly, it's not enough to make me leave them that way. They also have a dead fish eye look to them with it off

We know that AJ likes to use grills though. The BS-21 was the poster child for this. They (Debut) are budget speakers, so I get it. I just think it's funny that we're complaining about $200 speakers intended for rec rooms, dorm rooms and home-theater areas.
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post #1476 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 04:12 PM
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The Uni-fi line comes with a tweeter grille. That's definitely not an "entry level" speaker.


But I don't disagree that the Debut 2.0's were somewhat "simplified" to fit the market they were aiming for. The speakers were made to face 100% forward with no toe-in toward listener, front ported for slamming against the wall (bookshelves), made easier to drive, more pronounced midrange/treble to sound better in a Best Buy, better for home theater, etc.

Not saying these are necessarily bad features, but the speakers definitely were not made for what one might consider an "audiophile".

I rather doubt that removing the tweeter grille on the 2.0 will really improve things, but perhaps others have tired it here.
I stand corrected on the higher end model, and I did take a closer look and surprise surprise... the grille is way less restrictive than on the debut. It is like a wide open spiderweb as opposed to a micro honeycomb on the debut.

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post #1477 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 04:15 PM
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TI just think it's funny that we're complaining about $200 speakers intended for rec rooms, dorm rooms and home-theater areas.
Perfection knows no bounds...

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post #1478 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
I've pulled the mesh screen off the tweeter on both Debut lines. It comes off really easy and it just slides back in place. It's completely reversible. Not much difference, IMO. AJ himself talks about the differences between grill off and grill on in the Joe 'N Tell video.

FWIW, it made more difference in the older debut than the newer one. However, and it's a BIG HOWEVER, I find both speakers LOOK much better with the tweeter grill off. The extra (negligible?) clarity is just a bonus.
The clarity is distinctly evident with vocals.
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post #1479 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 04:32 PM
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The clarity is distinctly evident with vocals.
That's good to know. Once I pulled them off, they stayed that way...

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post #1480 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 06:36 PM
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That's good to know. Once I pulled them off, they stayed that way...
Yea!

Listen to this.

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post #1481 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by l0nestar8 View Post
As a counterpoint to this, Stereophile showed the difference between grill on and grill to be rather dramatic in the 225.

This is surprising to me since the grill cloth is very thin, light and seems like it would be virtually transparent.
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post #1482 of 1589 Old 01-29-2019, 09:54 PM
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This is surprising to me since the grill cloth is very thin, light and seems like it would be virtually transparent.
With grills, it's usually not the cloth itself, but diffraction from the plastic/MDF frame. Also, the Stereophile measurement is a 30 degree average at 1m. So, the top end is only being killed most likely off-axis and up close. From a typical listening distance with all the room refections, it's probably not a big deal overall, especially on-axis.

That said, all grills affect the sound to some degree. Some more than others. In the 225, it's particularly noteworthy.

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post #1483 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 06:08 AM
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Probably somewhere in between Elac and Wharfedale as far as punchiness goes. The detail and texture, OTOH, is noticeably better than either (as it should be for the price.)

Are the Excites worth the money in your view? Also, did you buy them new? I read that Dynaudio says their speakers take like 200 hours or more to fully break-in. Is this really true in your experience? I note that in the elac debut 2.0 manual there is no mention of break-in time.
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post #1484 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 08:39 AM
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Are the Excites worth the money in your view? Also, did you buy them new? I read that Dynaudio says their speakers take like 200 hours or more to fully break-in. Is this really true in your experience? I note that in the elac debut 2.0 manual there is no mention of break-in time.
I bought them new from a local dealer. So the price was well under MSRP. Regarding break-in, it's funny. On the consumer-side, Dynaudio does recommend 200 hours. However, on their pro-side for their studio monitors, they recommend 1-2 hours, LOL. So, my personal belief is that a few hours at a healthy volume are plenty.

As for value, there's a big jump in build and driver quality once you get to ~$800+, IMO. The actual sound signature will always be a personal preference, regardless of price.

Sidenote: For under $200, I still recommend these Elacs Debut 2.0's as the best bang for the buck, at the moment. I enjoyed them overall and is why I still post in this thread. No, I don't have them anymore, but that's only because I spent $350 on the WD 225's and $411 on a pair of RP-600M's to compare. The return window for both is fast approaching and yes, I like them better than the Elacs, but they are considerably more expensive as well. I use these as a secondary system with no sub. My main system is a Hsu/Dyn/Yammy combo.

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This is surprising to me since the grill cloth is very thin, light and seems like it would be virtually transparent.
if you look at the elac, it is a plastic honeycomb behind the cloth. Really mushes the speakers output.
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post #1486 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 09:16 AM
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if you look at the elac, it is a plastic honeycomb behind the cloth. Really mushes the speakers output.

Exactly. It's just awful and totally unacceptable to me.
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post #1487 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 09:30 AM
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I bought them new from a local dealer. So the price was well under MSRP. Regarding break-in, it's funny. On the consumer-side, Dynaudio does recommend 200 hours. However, on their pro-side for their studio monitors, they recommend 1-2 hours, LOL. So, my personal belief is that a few hours at a healthy volume are plenty.

As for value, there's a big jump in build and driver quality once you get to ~$800+, IMO.

But does it really make for a significantly better overall listening experience? I'm tempted to pick up a pair of the X-14s on the used market. Are they really as easy to drive as the specs and measurements suggest?

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Sidenote: For under $200, I still recommend these Elacs Debut 2.0's as the best bang for the buck, at the moment. I enjoyed them overall and is why I still post in this thread.

Oh, I agree completely (well, if you don't plan on using the awful grills), and $150 for the B6.2s was probably one of the best speaker deals I've ever seen. I'm not sure they're worth more than $200 though. The B5.2s at least.


I would like to see Elac aim for about $100 dollars more MSRP on these bookshelves. I think the money could be put into better drivers and overall design and enable them to cross the threshold into entry level hi-end. Maybe it could be done for only $50 more.
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post #1488 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 10:13 AM
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But does it really make for a significantly better overall listening experience? I'm tempted to pick up a pair of the X-14s on the used market. Are they really as easy to drive as the specs and measurements suggest?




Oh, I agree completely (well, if you don't plan on using the awful grills), and $150 for the B6.2s was probably one of the best speaker deals I've ever seen. I'm not sure they're worth more than $200 though. The B5.2s at least.


I would like to see Elac aim for about $100 dollars more MSRP on these bookshelves. I think the money could be put into better drivers and overall design and enable them to cross the threshold into entry level hi-end. Maybe it could be done for only $50 more.
i'm about to find out if that "next step up"is worth it to me .. i am *sure* the dyn's i am planning to demo are "better" .. but, are they "better enough" for my abused old ears to appreciate and to be willing to spend extra $$ to achieve? .. i think it's really more an individual thing .. i'm not sure it's money well spent for me (but it might be ) i am sure it is for others.. so to answer your question.. only your ears know for sure , there are lots of nice speakers at about $300-500 to choose from , that may really do it for you...

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post #1489 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 10:27 AM
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i'm about to find out if that "next step up"is worth it to me .. i am *sure* the dyn's i am planning to demo are "better" .. but, are they "better enough" for my abused old ears to appreciate and to be willing to spend extra $$ to achieve? .. i think it's really more an individual thing .. i'm not sure it's money well spent for me (but it might be ) i am sure it is for others.. so to answer your question.. only your ears know for sure , there are lots of nice speakers at about $300-500 to choose from , that may really do it for you...

Are you going to demo the X-14s? If you do, can you PM me your impressions?
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post #1490 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 11:31 AM
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But does it really make for a significantly better overall listening experience? I'm tempted to pick up a pair of the X-14s on the used market. Are they really as easy to drive as the specs and measurements suggest?
You are asking all the tough questions, haha.

Significantly better? Well, here was my thinking and some background:

I was in the market for a soft-dome tweeter, 6.5-7" woofer, bookshelf, with a robust cabinet that would last at least a decade, with quality parts, engineering, and service. My local dealer was carrying Harbeth, Dynaudio, and some other boutique brands at the time. I went in to audition a pair Harbeths, but was blown away by a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20's. The C20's were out of my price range and the Emit line didn't exist yet. So, he cut me a deal on a pair of X18's. I really liked the guy so I wanted to buy from him anyway. So that's what I picked.

When the Excite line was announced as discontinued, I grabbed a pair X14's for a future surround system. Still deciding on a center. May go with the X28 or a single X18. Anyway, I'm also eyeing an active BM5 mk3 to use on a desk where my X14's currently sit. I have my Klipsch/Wharfedales set up in the "listening room" with the Klipsch winning so far.

So we have all price points from ~$150 to ~$1300 in the house somewhere lol. Quality increases as value drops...Such is the audio hobby...
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post #1491 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 11:35 AM
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Are you going to demo the X-14s? If you do, can you PM me your impressions?
PMs??? @Lp85253 , you better start a thread telling us all about your first venture to a dealer when the time comes!! Impressions and all!!!....
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post #1492 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 01:55 PM
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You are asking all the tough questions, haha.

Significantly better? Well, here was my thinking and some background:

I was in the market for a soft-dome tweeter, 6.5-7" woofer, bookshelf, with a robust cabinet that would last at least a decade, with quality parts, engineering, and service. My local dealer was carrying Harbeth, Dynaudio, and some other boutique brands at the time. I went in to audition a pair Harbeths, but was blown away by a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20's. The C20's were out of my price range and the Emit line didn't exist yet. So, he cut me a deal on a pair of X18's. I really liked the guy so I wanted to buy from him anyway. So that's what I picked.

When the Excite line was announced as discontinued, I grabbed a pair X14's for a future surround system. Still deciding on a center. May go with the X28 or a single X18. Anyway, I'm also eyeing an active BM5 mk3 to use on a desk where my X14's currently sit. I have my Klipsch/Wharfedales set up in the "listening room" with the Klipsch winning so far.

So we have all price points from ~$150 to ~$1300 in the house somewhere lol. Quality increases as value drops...Such is the audio hobby...

Thanks. What about how the X-14s are to drive? The specs and Stereophile's measurements confirm they are truly 8 ohm speakers, which suggests they should be easy to drive, but Stereophile measured the sensitivity of them at 83dB -- not the spec listed 85dB.


Also, what about top end extension? Do you feel like anything is missing there given the tweeter only goes out to 23Khz?
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Are you going to demo the X-14s? If you do, can you PM me your impressions?
i will , although i am not sure they can accommodate me anytime soon.. also , i think i will post a new thread When(if) i get to demo the x14's and m10's.. if you want to try that "next " step up ,the entry to next up level dyns , revels, kef ls50, wharfedale jade are nice starting points .. martin logan entry level as well..... monitor audio silver is another possibility for you...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in

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PMs??? @Lp85253 , you better start a thread telling us all about your first venture to a dealer when the time comes!! Impressions and all!!!....
consider it done .. i am counting the days until i can demo those 2 (x14/ m10) against each other ...

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #1495 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 03:47 PM
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Thanks. What about how the X-14s are to drive? The specs and Stereophile's measurements confirm they are truly 8 ohm speakers, which suggests they should be easy to drive, but Stereophile measured the sensitivity of them at 83dB -- not the spec listed 85dB.
83dB feels about right. I would say you will need an extra 3-4 clicks on the remote to get them to the same volume as more common bookshelves. For sensitivity, they are on par with the old Phil AA, as a reference. I have a true 120W 8-ohm amp, so power has never been an issue.

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Also, what about top end extension? Do you feel like anything is missing there given the tweeter only goes out to 23Khz?
They have the best tweeter extension I've heard from a soft-dome, hands down. They are every bit the equal of some titanium (Klipsch/PSB) and most aluminum tweeters (Kef/Monitor Audio/Energy) I've heard. Maybe only Kef has better extension from what I can remember. Most people can't hear beyond 16-17kHz anyway. In addition, most people have a hard time distinguishing between tones after about 10kHz. Headphones, for instance, only extend to about 10kHz, so it's never really been a priority for me. Low distortion and smoothness are more important to me in a tweeter.

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post #1496 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 03:49 PM
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consider it done .. i am counting the days until i can demo those 2 (x14/ m10) against each other ...
Do they have anything else besides Dynaudio to listen to? Are you gonna bring your B1's along?

Speakers: M040 | M16 | LS50 | Reva-2| BM5 mk3 | X18 | X14
Sub: VTF-2 mk5
Amps: HK 3490 | TSR-7810
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post #1497 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 04:50 PM
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Do they have anything else besides Dynaudio to listen to? Are you gonna bring your B1's along?
they have monitor audio and a couple other brands..i don't think i can lug them b1's very far from the bus stop .. but i fully intend to do some a/b with the b1's and 10.1s vs whatever gets to my door.. i would love to drag the b1's along .. i'm listening to the 10.1s right now , after about an hour with the q100's.. the 10.1s are more fun for me on much of what i listen to.. i'm scouring c-list and offer up for low price gems right now as well..

YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in
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post #1498 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 04:54 PM
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they have monitor audio and a couple other brands..i don't think i can lug them b1's very far from the bus stop .. but i fully intend to do some a/b with the b1's and 10.1s vs whatever gets to my door.. i would love to drag the b1's along .. i'm listening to the 10.1s right now , after about an hour with the q100's.. the 10.1s are more fun for me on much of what i listen to.. i'm scouring c-list and offer up for low price gems right now as well..
Oh nice. I like the plan. MA should be a very nice contrast to Dyn. I'm actually realizing that you currently have 4 very different speakers but they are all very good examples of what they do best. Not much overlap in your collection.
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Speakers: M040 | M16 | LS50 | Reva-2| BM5 mk3 | X18 | X14
Sub: VTF-2 mk5
Amps: HK 3490 | TSR-7810
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post #1499 of 1589 Old 01-30-2019, 05:08 PM
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Oh nice. I like the plan. MA should be a very nice contrast to Dyn. I'm actually realizing that you currently have 4 very different speakers but they are all very good examples of what they do best. Not much overlap in your collection.
yep .. i gotta lot of "different"... i am currently thinking time to do "better".. we shall see.. another option i haven't totally dismissed is the emotiva t1 .. i think my room might be a bit small for them though.. i would rather get books..it wouldn't break my heart if i ended up with another pair of b1's for the other system.. i like em that much..
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YAMAHA TSR 5790.. front l/r emotiva b1's and /or kef q100's ..BIC v1220.....Emotiva basx10.... ascend cbm 170 center.. polk t15 rears..samsung 55" j620d
bedroom .. YAMAHA r-xv 383... front l/r.. wharfedale 10.1s... ascend cbm 170 center ... Emotiva basx8... samsung ku6300 50 in

Last edited by Lp85253; 01-30-2019 at 07:02 PM.
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post #1500 of 1589 Old 02-01-2019, 03:55 AM
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83dB feels about right. I would say you will need an extra 3-4 clicks on the remote to get them to the same volume as more common bookshelves. For sensitivity, they are on par with the old Phil AA, as a reference. I have a true 120W 8-ohm amp, so power has never been an issue.



They have the best tweeter extension I've heard from a soft-dome, hands down. They are every bit the equal of some titanium (Klipsch/PSB) and most aluminum tweeters (Kef/Monitor Audio/Energy) I've heard. Maybe only Kef has better extension from what I can remember. Most people can't hear beyond 16-17kHz anyway. In addition, most people have a hard time distinguishing between tones after about 10kHz. Headphones, for instance, only extend to about 10kHz, so it's never really been a priority for me. Low distortion and smoothness are more important to me in a tweeter.

Thanks. How would you describe their overall sound signature? Warm, neutral, bright? Somewhere in between?
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