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-   -   Why do tower speakers limit their range when subwoofer is connected? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2972870-why-do-tower-speakers-limit-their-range-when-subwoofer-connected.html)

rycliff 04-21-2018 09:31 PM

Why do tower speakers limit their range when subwoofer is connected?
 
I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.

markmanner 04-21-2018 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rycliff (Post 56075222)
I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.

When you say after connecting the subs that the towers range was reduced, do you mean after you ran Audyssey or other room equalization software? I suggest looking at the following threads for more information first:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...eferences.html

rycliff 04-21-2018 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markmanner (Post 56075242)
When you say after connecting the subs that the towers range was reduced, do you mean after you ran Audyssey or other room equalization software? I suggest looking at the following threads for more information first:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...eferences.html

I have not yet run any calibration. But I don't think that has to do with what I am referring to.

Anthem MRX 720, apparently by default, limits the range of sound sent to the floorstanding speakers if it also has a subwoofer connected. Why would it do that?

markmanner 04-21-2018 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rycliff (Post 56075250)
I have not yet run any calibration. But I don't think that has to do with what I am referring to.

Anthem MRX 720, apparently by default, limits the range of sound sent to the floorstanding speakers if it also has a subwoofer connected. Why would it do that?

I would imagine that your AVR, recognizing that a sub is attached, is setting a crossover on your main speakers (perhaps at 80 hz?), and directing the bass content from your towers to your subwoofer. This usually make things sound better, once you figure out the best settings. I would first read those threads, run Audyssey or whatever your Anthem has like it, and then adjust your speaker and sub settings. Take a look at the links and see if that helps, and come back with some more questions.
Best,
Mark

rycliff 04-21-2018 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markmanner (Post 56075260)
I would imagine that your AVR, recognizing that a sub is attached, is setting a crossover on your main speakers (perhaps at 80 hz?), and directing the bass content from your towers to your subwoofer. This usually make things sound better, once you figure out the best settings. I would first read those threads, run Audyssey or whatever your Anthem has like it, and then adjust your speaker and sub settings. Take a look at the links and see if that helps, and come back with some more questions.
Best,
Mark

Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one source: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?

markmanner 04-21-2018 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rycliff (Post 56075266)
Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one course: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?

If you read the threads I referred you to, it will help a lot.

crn3371 04-21-2018 09:49 PM

I suggest you carefully read the manual, as I can’t believe an avr would do that by default. At the very least, you should be able to override the setting.

TuteTibiImperes 04-21-2018 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rycliff (Post 56075266)
Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one source: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?

Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.

gajCA 04-22-2018 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rycliff (Post 56075222)
I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.

The manual is a bit confusing to be honest; you might want to talk to Anthem directly as normally you have to tell a receiver you have a sub if you are doing setup manually and have not run ARC.

But Sound & Vision tested your exact system and you'd want a subwoofer to take over around 50hz based on their measurements but that subwoofer is woefully inadequate as its -3db point is 41 hz while the R900s are 50hz so it doesn't bring much to the party as you can see from the graph.

A true Home Theater sub should have a -3db point close to 20hz.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-labs-measures

https://www.soundandvision.com/image...EF_measure.jpg

trilkb 04-22-2018 01:11 PM

42 Attachment(s)
Go into settings and switch them from small to large, or verify they are set to large/full range.

You're in for more upset when your center arrives.

Big left and right mains has never made any sense to me in a home theater 5.1/7.1 setup. A very high percentage (70-80%), of all dialogue comes from the center channel.

You're better off running 3 center channels for left/center/right in a 5.1/7.1 set up. Cross them all at the same frequency and let the subwoofers cover the rest. Full range towers have no place in a 5.1/7.1 setup anymore if you ask me. If it can dig to 80hz, good enough, I prefer 50-60hz though.

You're full range speakers are good for music stereo listening with no sub. I learned the hard way too with Cerwin Vega ls12s. 12" floor standers, and almost all the stuff that matters in a movie comes from center, surrounds, and subs. I'll never believe left and right mains need to be bigger then the center.

rycliff 05-02-2018 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trilkb (Post 56077662)
Go into settings and switch them from small to large, or verify they are set to large/full range.

You're in for more upset when your center arrives.

Big left and right mains has never made any sense to me in a home theater 5.1/7.1 setup. A very high percentage (70-80%), of all dialogue comes from the center channel.

You're better off running 3 center channels for left/center/right in a 5.1/7.1 set up. Cross them all at the same frequency and let the subwoofers cover the rest. Full range towers have no place in a 5.1/7.1 setup anymore if you ask me. If it can dig to 80hz, good enough, I prefer 50-60hz though.

You're full range speakers are good for music stereo listening with no sub. I learned the hard way too with Cerwin Vega ls12s. 12" floor standers, and almost all the stuff that matters in a movie comes from center, surrounds, and subs. I'll never believe left and right mains need to be bigger then the center.

Thank you for response. Why would I want to "cross"? Why not have all sound come out each speaker to the extent the speaker can produce that range of the sound?

rycliff 05-02-2018 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes (Post 56075390)
Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.

Thanks for the response. I got the subwoofer because it was on sale direct from KEF. Decor was also important and that subwoofer matches the speakers. So I figured, because it was on sale, it was worth getting since it matched.

"you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs."

I think you just answered what I've been trying to figure out: why have crossover? I got these speakers knowing there was overlap because I figured they could just all play whatever range of sound they were capable of reproducing and that was ok. It did not make sense to me to get speakers that could play less range, when I could get other speakers that could play more range.

rycliff 05-02-2018 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes (Post 56075390)
Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.

Thanks for the post. That's very technical, but it sounds like the sub sucks and is near useless when paired with the R900s. Too bad.

torii 05-02-2018 11:25 PM

you can setup your system to play full range fronts and have subs. most dont cause subs usually sound better than floorstanders.


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