Why do tower speakers limit their range when subwoofer is connected? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 2Likes
  • 2 Post By markmanner
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Why do tower speakers limit their range when subwoofer is connected?

I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.
rycliff is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
markmanner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by rycliff View Post
I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.
When you say after connecting the subs that the towers range was reduced, do you mean after you ran Audyssey or other room equalization software? I suggest looking at the following threads for more information first:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...eferences.html

System
Spoiler!
markmanner is offline  
post #3 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
When you say after connecting the subs that the towers range was reduced, do you mean after you ran Audyssey or other room equalization software? I suggest looking at the following threads for more information first:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...d-part-ii.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...eferences.html
I have not yet run any calibration. But I don't think that has to do with what I am referring to.

Anthem MRX 720, apparently by default, limits the range of sound sent to the floorstanding speakers if it also has a subwoofer connected. Why would it do that?

Last edited by rycliff; 04-21-2018 at 08:43 PM.
rycliff is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
markmanner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by rycliff View Post
I have not yet run any calibration. But I don't think that has to do with what I am referring to.

Anthem MRX 720, apparently by default, limits the range of sound sent to the floorstanding speakers if it also has a subwoofer connected. Why would it do that?
I would imagine that your AVR, recognizing that a sub is attached, is setting a crossover on your main speakers (perhaps at 80 hz?), and directing the bass content from your towers to your subwoofer. This usually make things sound better, once you figure out the best settings. I would first read those threads, run Audyssey or whatever your Anthem has like it, and then adjust your speaker and sub settings. Take a look at the links and see if that helps, and come back with some more questions.
Best,
Mark

System
Spoiler!
markmanner is offline  
post #5 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:47 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmanner View Post
I would imagine that your AVR, recognizing that a sub is attached, is setting a crossover on your main speakers (perhaps at 80 hz?), and directing the bass content from your towers to your subwoofer. This usually make things sound better, once you figure out the best settings. I would first read those threads, run Audyssey or whatever your Anthem has like it, and then adjust your speaker and sub settings. Take a look at the links and see if that helps, and come back with some more questions.
Best,
Mark
Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one source: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?
rycliff is offline  
post #6 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
markmanner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 544
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 346 Post(s)
Liked: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by rycliff View Post
Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one course: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?
If you read the threads I referred you to, it will help a lot.
palehorse and gordojones88 like this.

System
Spoiler!
markmanner is offline  
post #7 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 08:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
crn3371's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,465
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 307 Post(s)
Liked: 266
I suggest you carefully read the manual, as I can’t believe an avr would do that by default. At the very least, you should be able to override the setting.
crn3371 is online now  
post #8 of 14 Old 04-21-2018, 09:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 2,792
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1785 Post(s)
Liked: 1482
Quote:
Originally Posted by rycliff View Post
Why would you want crossover?

Wouldn't you want all the range of sound that a speaker can cover be played on the speaker? Why cut off a range of sound beyond a certain point if the speaker can handle that range?

I rather have deep bass coming both from my subwoofer and from my floorstanding R900s. Not just from one source: the subwoofer. Am I wrong? Why?
Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.

HT: Sony 940C, Oppo 203, Harman/Kardon DPR1001, Infinity Interlude IL40 x2, Infinity Interlude IL36C, Infinity MS-1 ii x2, Infinity MSW-1
Computer: Elac Uni-Fi UB5 x2, Elac Element EA101EQ integrated amp, SVS SB-12NSD
Dedicated 2-channel: Infinity Intermezzo 4.1t towers, Bluesound Node 2, Emotiva PT-100, Crown XLS 1502, Furman PL-8C
TuteTibiImperes is offline  
post #9 of 14 Old 04-22-2018, 11:38 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
gajCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 19,396
Mentioned: 224 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9090 Post(s)
Liked: 6235
Quote:
Originally Posted by rycliff View Post
I have two separate systems of the following:

2 x KEF R900 Floorstanding Loudspeakers
1 x KEF R600c Center Channel Speaker
1 x KEF R400b Subwoofer
1 x Anthem MRX 720 A/V Receiver

The center channel speakers have not yet arrived. Before I connected the subwoofers, the R900s had wide range of sound including deep bass. After I installed the subwoofers, the range of sound from the R900s was reduced (the bass was removed).

Why?

I was aware, when I bought these setups, that there would be overlap in the range of sound between the R900s and the subwoofers. I was ok with that. What I was not expecting or planning for was having the sound's range literally limited in the R900s when the subwoofer was added on.

Why does this happen? Why is this desirable? How do I get the full range of sound from all my speakers regardless of what other speakers are connected to my system?

Thanks for your help.
The manual is a bit confusing to be honest; you might want to talk to Anthem directly as normally you have to tell a receiver you have a sub if you are doing setup manually and have not run ARC.

But Sound & Vision tested your exact system and you'd want a subwoofer to take over around 50hz based on their measurements but that subwoofer is woefully inadequate as its -3db point is 41 hz while the R900s are 50hz so it doesn't bring much to the party as you can see from the graph.

A true Home Theater sub should have a -3db point close to 20hz.

https://www.soundandvision.com/conte...-labs-measures


Geoff A. J., California
gajCA is offline  
post #10 of 14 Old 04-22-2018, 12:11 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
trilkb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Cincinnati, Oh
Posts: 1,212
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 658 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Go into settings and switch them from small to large, or verify they are set to large/full range.

You're in for more upset when your center arrives.

Big left and right mains has never made any sense to me in a home theater 5.1/7.1 setup. A very high percentage (70-80%), of all dialogue comes from the center channel.

You're better off running 3 center channels for left/center/right in a 5.1/7.1 set up. Cross them all at the same frequency and let the subwoofers cover the rest. Full range towers have no place in a 5.1/7.1 setup anymore if you ask me. If it can dig to 80hz, good enough, I prefer 50-60hz though.

You're full range speakers are good for music stereo listening with no sub. I learned the hard way too with Cerwin Vega ls12s. 12" floor standers, and almost all the stuff that matters in a movie comes from center, surrounds, and subs. I'll never believe left and right mains need to be bigger then the center.

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
trilkb is offline  
post #11 of 14 Old 05-02-2018, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Go into settings and switch them from small to large, or verify they are set to large/full range.

You're in for more upset when your center arrives.

Big left and right mains has never made any sense to me in a home theater 5.1/7.1 setup. A very high percentage (70-80%), of all dialogue comes from the center channel.

You're better off running 3 center channels for left/center/right in a 5.1/7.1 set up. Cross them all at the same frequency and let the subwoofers cover the rest. Full range towers have no place in a 5.1/7.1 setup anymore if you ask me. If it can dig to 80hz, good enough, I prefer 50-60hz though.

You're full range speakers are good for music stereo listening with no sub. I learned the hard way too with Cerwin Vega ls12s. 12" floor standers, and almost all the stuff that matters in a movie comes from center, surrounds, and subs. I'll never believe left and right mains need to be bigger then the center.
Thank you for response. Why would I want to "cross"? Why not have all sound come out each speaker to the extent the speaker can produce that range of the sound?
rycliff is offline  
post #12 of 14 Old 05-02-2018, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.
Thanks for the response. I got the subwoofer because it was on sale direct from KEF. Decor was also important and that subwoofer matches the speakers. So I figured, because it was on sale, it was worth getting since it matched.

"you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs."

I think you just answered what I've been trying to figure out: why have crossover? I got these speakers knowing there was overlap because I figured they could just all play whatever range of sound they were capable of reproducing and that was ok. It did not make sense to me to get speakers that could play less range, when I could get other speakers that could play more range.

Last edited by rycliff; 05-02-2018 at 10:24 PM.
rycliff is offline  
post #13 of 14 Old 05-02-2018, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
rycliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 30
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuteTibiImperes View Post
Your receiver may have automatically set your speakers to 'small' when it noticed the subwoofer was connected. Usually that's a good thing, subwoofers are far more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies than towers are, so you usually want to roll your towers off and let the subwoofer take over down low. That allows you to position the subwoofer for optimal bass reproduction in your room, eases the load for the amplifier on your main speakers since bass frequencies are the most demanding of power to reproduce, and can usually clean up the midrange and mid-bass on your speakers since the drivers aren't being asked to reproduce frequencies that require extremely large excursion.

Another reason you'd want that is because if your mains and subwoofer are completely overlapping in the bass without a crossover to roll one off while the other ramps up, you're going to duplicate certain frequencies in the bass region which will cause more emphasis than there should be in the bass, or could cause cancellation because of phase or positioning issues which would cause nulls or suck-outs.

If you go into your receivers settings and set the R900s to 'large' they'll receive a full range signal, but they may not be as capable as a good subwoofer of reproducing those bass frequencies.

I mention 'good subwoofer' because the R400b isn't necessarily one, at least for HT use. With two small drivers (only 9") and a modestly powered amp, it's not going to reproduce bass as well as a larger subwoofer with a more powerful amp, especially compared to other subwoofers in the price range of what KEF charges for it.
Thanks for the post. That's very technical, but it sounds like the sub sucks and is near useless when paired with the R900s. Too bad.
rycliff is offline  
post #14 of 14 Old 05-02-2018, 10:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
torii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 7,242
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3592 Post(s)
Liked: 2027
you can setup your system to play full range fronts and have subs. most dont cause subs usually sound better than floorstanders.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
torii is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Speakers

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off