Large volume room...struggling with speaker selection. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 39 Old 05-03-2018, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Large volume room...struggling with speaker selection.

I've got $2750 to work with for the entire 5.1 or 5.2 speaker arrangement in this large volume room. The room itself is rectangular, which is nice, but it's very open to the rest of what you see in the sketch below (vaulted ceilings, no doors, wide openings, massive open foyer for split-level landing, etc).

The system will be used primarily for loud HT (action movies), but the owner (my father) will also play a lot of music at low/moderate volumes (primarily classical and classic rock) every day. The entire setup will be powered by a Pioneer Elite SC-LX701.

Here's my current plan, but I'm open to any/all suggestions:

SUBWOOFER: Hsu VTF-15H MK2 ($900)
FRONT L/R: Emotiva Airmotiv T2 Towers ($1000/pr)
CENTER: Emotiva Airmotiv C2 ($370)
REAR SURROUND: Emotiva Airmotiv E2 ($460/pr) (planning to experiment with di/bipole setting to see which works best in the large space)

TOTAL: ~$2730 + shipping

Please note that any alternative solution involving bookshelf speakers will need to include the price for stands/wallmounts in that $2750. Also note that, unfortunately, I can't wait for parts to become available on the used markets, as this entire system needs to be ordered in the next few days.

With all of the awesome new speaker options in this price range from Ascend, Hsu, Elac, etc., I'm really struggling with these sight-unseen selections.

Would I be better off with something like five CCB-8's + VTF-15H sub in this large space?

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Please and thank you!
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Last edited by palehorse; 05-04-2018 at 12:01 AM.
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post #2 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 04:04 AM
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Speakers are fine but I'd go with 2 12" subs over 1 15". Or the 15" now and add another 15" later. You won't be able to pressurize that size of space with one sub. I'd also add an external amp for the fronts and center.
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post #3 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 05:12 AM
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I think either approach will do you well. I have heard the CCB-8's and they are awesome. I can't vouch for the emotives but they get lots of recommendations. the pioneer receiver is a solid choice feature wise. if you could add 1 or 2 outboard zone amps driving ceiling speakers for the kitchen and dining rooms, it could really enhance the whole set up.

good luck and post your results!
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post #4 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 06:31 AM
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Looking at the math,

You need LOUD HT for action movies in a large room and will power it with an AVR--understood. The math indicates that the larger the room, the more SPL required. SPL is a function of speaker efficiency + amplifier power. The Pioneer pushes 135 watts or, to convert to a number that actually means something, you have +21 dB/W or +21dB of gain available.

According to your chart, the chair is over 4 meters away so throw that in the number cruncher. You'll gain a little for sound reflections but at the minimum you'll lose 10dB over the 1 meter SPL calculations. Then calculate for one meter SPL then subtract 10 dB for distance. (roughly)

Now to recalculate efficiency by using the poor sensitivity numbers of the Emotivas. They are rated 91dB at 2.83V but are 4 ohms. That is actually 2 watts of drive so subtract 3dB to get the efficiency at 1 watt which would be 88dB one watt/one meter. The Pioneer might, on a good day with a wind at it's back push 160 watts or so into 4 ohms which is +22 dB/W or +22dB of gain. Add the 22dB to the 88 dB efficiency and you get 110dB at one meter or around 100dB at the chair.

"Reference" level is 105dB peaks at your seated position, so at most you'll get -5dB of reference which is pretty good. The "reference" level for the sub is 115dB peaks which won't happen in a room that size with one of them. The term "loud" is undefined but if he wants it as loud as a THX theater, that won't happen with those speakers/sub combo.

To get more SPL requires more efficient speakers. The idea of throwing more power at them falls apart, if you want reference levels you'll need to throw +27 dB/W or +27 dB of gain which is 500 watts at them. That won't happen so the final answer is to use more efficient speakers.

The Hsu 8's will give you a little more efficiency, or you can look at other brands and designs of speakers to gain efficiency. The good news is you are using subs, you can get very efficient speakers that are smaller than a casket because they have no bass response that would make them huge.

The upside there are companies that make very efficient speakers for HT use, the downside is efficiency = big cabinets, large drivers and so on...not exactly inexpensive. For example, a single "large bookshelf" from Power Sound Audio runs $650 each, is a 10" mid-woofer 2-way and punches 95dB one watt/one meter at 8 ohms. Three of them would get you loud HT but run $2,000 for your LCR.

There are plenty of speakers available that are small-ish , made specifically for theater levels because they are theater speakers. Basically, they are the surrounds used in smaller cinemas and work very well for that. Here is a pair that is rated 97dB one watt/one meter, weighs around 21 pounds and can be mounted on the wall--has a grill as professional surrounds do since the public can see them.

https://www.spectrumaudio.com/jbl-83...-applications/

I don't personally use cinema speakers, I build my own and they look like... cinema speakers My wife is OK with speakers of a certain size but I had to build them myself to get them to fit into furniture (center) and end tables (subwoofers) so I went for high efficiency. Mine belt out 98dB one watt/one meter or higher at 8 ohms so I can use a simple AVR the entire family can use.

The sub question, yeah--good news and bad new on that also. The good news is you can add more subs until you get the SPL requirements met. The more subs you have, the more even the bass is distributed around the room which is also good news. The bad news is you have a huge space with all those additional rooms open to the subs so they have to pressurize those spaces also. A single 15 won't do it, think multiples but you picked a great sub to start.

Surrounds don't need as much SPL as your mains because they are closer to you and have slightly lower peak SPL requirements from those channels. Say you go with the 8350 for LCR, you can get "matching" surrounds that are 8" coaxials (much smaller) they have swivel mounts built in and run about $350 each. They are also paintable to match the wall color and so on.

Another option for surrounds is to build them. The DIY Sound Group Volt series are professional coaxials that you can build the boxes yourself, they can provide flatpacks with the wood pre-cut, they can pre-build the crossovers for you to make it "Assemble yourself" at $150 to $200 each. This is a great idea for surrounds, very simple to build with clamps/glue and if you want to paint match them to the walls, no problem there.

The DIY/AIY option depends on you or your dad, some people like building things while others don't. Just an option I'm throwing out there.

Good luck in your quest and in summation, you need more efficient speakers to fill that space. Have a great weekend!
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post #5 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post
I've got $2750 to work with for the entire 5.1 or 5.2 speaker arrangement in this large volume room. The room itself is rectangular, which is nice, but it's very open to the rest of what you see in the sketch below (vaulted ceilings, no doors, wide openings, massive open foyer for split-level landing, etc).

The system will be used primarily for loud HT (action movies), but the owner (my father) will also play a lot of music at low/moderate volumes (primarily classical and classic rock) every day. The entire setup will be powered by a Pioneer Elite SC-LX701.

SUBWOOFER: Hsu VTF-15H MK2 ($900)
FRONT L/R: Emotiva Airmotiv T2 Towers ($1000/pr)
CENTER: Emotiva Airmotiv C2 ($370)
REAR SURROUND: Emotiva Airmotiv E2 ($460/pr) (planning to experiment with di/bipole setting to see which works best in the large space)

TOTAL: ~$2730 + shipping

Would I be better off with something like five CCB-8's + VTF-15H sub in this large space?
With so much open space, the main challenge will be the subwoofers. I'd ask Hsu about the pros and cons of doing a pair of VTF-2 versus a single VTF-3 or VTF-15 in your case...their customer service is very honest and helpful.

If you need to reduce your speaker budget to pay for the necessary subwooferage, instead of the Emotivas I'd go with Ascend 340SE x 3 up front and 200SE or 170SE for your surrounds which would run you about $1100 shipped. A pair of stands for the 340SE would cost about $100:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24794

The 340SE are 8ohms whereas the T2 are 4ohms, so the 340SE should be an easier load for your receiver than the T2 even though the two have similar sensitivity specs. Sound-wise, I'd expect the Emotivas' AMT tweeter to have an edge in treble extension/detail, but for overall tonal balance and midrange fullness the Ascends should be equal or better.

For your dad's music listening, the Ascends and Emotivas would be a safer bet than the CCB-8 unless you are sure that he likes an aggressive treble presentation.
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post #6 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by djp2k7 View Post
Speakers are fine but I'd go with 2 12" subs over 1 15". Or the 15" now and add another 15" later. You won't be able to pressurize that size of space with one sub. I'd also add an external amp for the fronts and center.
The plan, if the single 15" sub is underwhelming, is to add another 15" once the budget allows for it. The same is true for external amps if the Pioneer isn't doing the trick.

I'm more worried about the selected center and surrounds getting lost in the room. My Dad will definitely get annoyed if he can't pick up on the dialog in his movies, and I can't add additional surrounds for 7.x given the windows and walls situation. Doh!

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post #7 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 08:10 AM
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Well, this is not a designated theater and in that space, wouldn't be very practical to play reference or even close levels. I think the Emotivas will be able to get plenty of loud for clear dialogue and provide plenty of Ummph at the MLP. I agree, however that a single subwoofer will struggle to give great LFE in that space.
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post #8 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 09:25 AM
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palehorse, nice that you are helping your dad. Am sure he appreciates your wading into the weeds, clearing things out, and emerging with some clear and understandable options.

I also am a "dad", though probably a tad older than yours. A few things that may be worthwhile to him/you:
  1. I had a similarly large, open, high ceiling area as your father, and received a lot of good, but often predictable, advice
  2. I was advised to get a separate amp to "power" my fronts (no AVR could do the job properly), and at least 2 15" subs (some preached 4, or even 18" subs) to "pressurize" my room as best as I might

What I discovered:
  • Back then (7 years ago) was 65. Only managed to hear much above 12-13Khz on a good day. Have good hearing, but TIME does its inevitable thing to the ear and higher frequencies
  • Horn tweeters can enhance vocal clarity (Klipsch, BIC, others) over dome tweeters
  • The AVR you have chosen is an EXCELLENT choice for its power, features and capabilities, and value. Further, with DTS, it offers your dad the ability to BOOST ONLY THE DIALOGUE if he wishes. And highly sensitive (horn) speakers reduce the power requirements on your AVR
  • My one 12" Outlaw LFM-1EX sub was AMPLE (would have popped the nails out of my drywall, if I had turned it up even to mid-volume)
  • In all probability, you do not need to concern yourself with the ever-lurking (and ultimately expensive) assumptions about "reference level" listening volumes. I suspect that many, if not most, have NO desire to get there often, outside perhaps of short-term dynamics/HT sounds.

To sum up the above--my experience suggests that your dad may be thrilled with more modest solutions that are coordinated with each other.

P.S. Like the idea of adding additional ceiling speakers if your dad would find much value in the audio in those areas being more direct (requiring less overall volume).
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post #9 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
With so much open space, the main challenge will be the subwoofers. I'd ask Hsu about the pros and cons of doing a pair of VTF-2 versus a single VTF-3 or VTF-15 in your case...their customer service is very honest and helpful.

If you need to reduce your speaker budget to pay for the necessary subwooferage, instead of the Emotivas I'd go with Ascend 340SE x 3 up front and 200SE or 170SE for your surrounds which would run you about $1100 shipped. A pair of stands for the 340SE would cost about $100:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24794

The 340SE are 8ohms whereas the T2 are 4ohms, so the 340SE should be an easier load for your receiver than the T2 even though the two have similar sensitivity specs. Sound-wise, I'd expect the Emotivas' AMT tweeter to have an edge in treble extension/detail, but for overall tonal balance and midrange fullness the Ascends should be equal or better.

For your dad's music listening, the Ascends and Emotivas would be a safer bet than the CCB-8 unless you are sure that he likes an aggressive treble presentation.
I’d agree that the CCB8’s would be great for HT but not everybody will like them for music.

I also agree that the Ascends would be an excellent choice plus with their stands they’re very aesthetically pleasing speakers.

Either way whether the Emotiva, CCB8’s, or Ascends I promise you and your father will be happy.

I wouldn’t worry with dual subs right now if you can’t afford it. Get the one 15” HSU and if your father feels he needs more down the line then add a second. The main thing is you are starting with a good sub to begin with rather than buying multiple subs before you invest in a good sub. That HSU may be all he ever needs/wants.
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post #10 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Looking at the math,

You need LOUD HT for action movies in a large room and will power it with an AVR--understood. The math indicates that the larger the room, the more SPL required. SPL is a function of speaker efficiency + amplifier power. The Pioneer pushes 135 watts or, to convert to a number that actually means something, you have +21 dB/W or +21dB of gain available.

According to your chart, the chair is over 4 meters away so throw that in the number cruncher. You'll gain a little for sound reflections but at the minimum you'll lose 10dB over the 1 meter SPL calculations. Then calculate for one meter SPL then subtract 10 dB for distance. (roughly)

Now to recalculate efficiency by using the poor sensitivity numbers of the Emotivas. They are rated 91dB at 2.83V but are 4 ohms. That is actually 2 watts of drive so subtract 3dB to get the efficiency at 1 watt which would be 88dB one watt/one meter. The Pioneer might, on a good day with a wind at it's back push 160 watts or so into 4 ohms which is +22 dB/W or +22dB of gain. Add the 22dB to the 88 dB efficiency and you get 110dB at one meter or around 100dB at the chair.

"Reference" level is 105dB peaks at your seated position, so at most you'll get -5dB of reference which is pretty good. The "reference" level for the sub is 115dB peaks which won't happen in a room that size with one of them. The term "loud" is undefined but if he wants it as loud as a THX theater, that won't happen with those speakers/sub combo.

To get more SPL requires more efficient speakers. The idea of throwing more power at them falls apart, if you want reference levels you'll need to throw +27 dB/W or +27 dB of gain which is 500 watts at them. That won't happen so the final answer is to use more efficient speakers.

The Hsu 8's will give you a little more efficiency, or you can look at other brands and designs of speakers to gain efficiency. The good news is you are using subs, you can get very efficient speakers that are smaller than a casket because they have no bass response that would make them huge.

The upside there are companies that make very efficient speakers for HT use, the downside is efficiency = big cabinets, large drivers and so on...not exactly inexpensive. For example, a single "large bookshelf" from Power Sound Audio runs $650 each, is a 10" mid-woofer 2-way and punches 95dB one watt/one meter at 8 ohms. Three of them would get you loud HT but run $2,000 for your LCR.

There are plenty of speakers available that are small-ish , made specifically for theater levels because they are theater speakers. Basically, they are the surrounds used in smaller cinemas and work very well for that. Here is a pair that is rated 97dB one watt/one meter, weighs around 21 pounds and can be mounted on the wall--has a grill as professional surrounds do since the public can see them.

https://www.spectrumaudio.com/jbl-83...-applications/

I don't personally use cinema speakers, I build my own and they look like... cinema speakers My wife is OK with speakers of a certain size but I had to build them myself to get them to fit into furniture (center) and end tables (subwoofers) so I went for high efficiency. Mine belt out 98dB one watt/one meter or higher at 8 ohms so I can use a simple AVR the entire family can use.

The sub question, yeah--good news and bad new on that also. The good news is you can add more subs until you get the SPL requirements met. The more subs you have, the more even the bass is distributed around the room which is also good news. The bad news is you have a huge space with all those additional rooms open to the subs so they have to pressurize those spaces also. A single 15 won't do it, think multiples but you picked a great sub to start.

Surrounds don't need as much SPL as your mains because they are closer to you and have slightly lower peak SPL requirements from those channels. Say you go with the 8350 for LCR, you can get "matching" surrounds that are 8" coaxials (much smaller) they have swivel mounts built in and run about $350 each. They are also paintable to match the wall color and so on.

Another option for surrounds is to build them. The DIY Sound Group Volt series are professional coaxials that you can build the boxes yourself, they can provide flatpacks with the wood pre-cut, they can pre-build the crossovers for you to make it "Assemble yourself" at $150 to $200 each. This is a great idea for surrounds, very simple to build with clamps/glue and if you want to paint match them to the walls, no problem there.

The DIY/AIY option depends on you or your dad, some people like building things while others don't. Just an option I'm throwing out there.

Good luck in your quest and in summation, you need more efficient speakers to fill that space. Have a great weekend!
That is some amazing information (and math!) I really appreciate you taking the time to write up such a thorough response, and is given me a lot to think about.

If this system were for me, I'd personally take on those DIY options without thinking twice. Unfortunately, the system is for my Dad, and he basically wants it finished yesterday. That, along with my not living at the same house, has certainly limited my options.

I think I can talk him into a second subwoofer in a few months, so that will help a lot with the bass management. I also think I can talk him into a few extra amps once he decides to go forward with Zones 2 and 3.

Again, though, you've given me a lot to think about, so thank you very much for your advice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorba922 View Post
With so much open space, the main challenge will be the subwoofers. I'd ask Hsu about the pros and cons of doing a pair of VTF-2 versus a single VTF-3 or VTF-15 in your case...their customer service is very honest and helpful.

If you need to reduce your speaker budget to pay for the necessary subwooferage, instead of the Emotivas I'd go with Ascend 340SE x 3 up front and 200SE or 170SE for your surrounds which would run you about $1100 shipped. A pair of stands for the 340SE would cost about $100:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24794

The 340SE are 8ohms whereas the T2 are 4ohms, so the 340SE should be an easier load for your receiver than the T2 even though the two have similar sensitivity specs. Sound-wise, I'd expect the Emotivas' AMT tweeter to have an edge in treble extension/detail, but for overall tonal balance and midrange fullness the Ascends should be equal or better.

For your dad's music listening, the Ascends and Emotivas would be a safer bet than the CCB-8 unless you are sure that he likes an aggressive treble presentation.
The current plan is to add a second VTF-15H once the budget allows for it (maybe 6-12 months from now). I may also try to talk him into a separate amp, or two, if we think the towers are under-performing at that time.

With that plan in place, would you still recommend the Ascends over the currently selected Emotiva's?

Thank you very much for your help with this!
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post #11 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwb0007 View Post
palehorse, nice that you are helping your dad. Am sure he appreciates your wading into the weeds, clearing things out, and emerging with some clear and understandable options.

I also am a "dad", though probably a tad older than yours. A few things that may be worthwhile to him/you:
  1. I had a similarly large, open, high ceiling area as your father, and received a lot of good, but often predictable, advice
  2. I was advised to get a separate amp to "power" my fronts (no AVR could do the job properly), and at least 2 15" subs (some preached 4, or even 18" subs) to "pressurize" my room as best as I might

What I discovered:
  • Back then (7 years ago) was 65. Only managed to hear much above 12-13Khz on a good day. Have good hearing, but TIME does its inevitable thing to the ear and higher frequencies
  • Horn tweeters can enhance vocal clarity (Klipsch, BIC, others) over dome tweeters
  • The AVR you have chosen is an EXCELLENT choice for its power, features and capabilities, and value. Further, with DTS, it offers your dad the ability to BOOST ONLY THE DIALOGUE if he wishes. And highly sensitive (horn) speakers reduce the power requirements on your AVR
  • My one 12" Outlaw LFM-1EX sub was AMPLE (would have popped the nails out of my drywall, if I had turned it up even to mid-volume)
  • In all probability, you do not need to concern yourself with the ever-lurking (and ultimately expensive) assumptions about "reference level" listening volumes. I suspect that many, if not most, have NO desire to get there often, outside perhaps of short-term dynamics/HT sounds.

To sum up the above--my experience suggests that your dad may be thrilled with more modest solutions that are coordinated with each other.

P.S. Like the idea of adding additional ceiling speakers if your dad would find much value in the audio in those areas being more direct (requiring less overall volume).
That is a very excellent point! My Dad is actually your exact age, and he's made it clear to me that he may not notice much difference in one subwoofer vs two -- based simply on the fact that he's never owned a subwoofer in his life. At this point, with his hearing naturally beginning to diminish, I am counting on the fact that ANY semi-decent bass will be enough for his needs.

My primary concern, as you noted in your reply, is the clarity and volume of dialog and vocals -- especially during quiet scenes. I know that I can increase the center channel output on the Pioneer after the initial calibration, but I'm just not entirely sure the Emotiva C2 will produce the necessary clarity/volume for his seating position that is approximately 16 ft from the front stage.

On another note, are ceiling speakers really an option when the ceiling is angled and 20 feet above his head?

Thanks for your great advice, I really appreciate it. It was great to hear from someone who has the same perspective as my own Dad!

(PS: On yet another note, it's always fun to do this kind of designing when it's someone else's money for a change! My Dad is ending up with some of the equipment I've personally been drooling over for years, like that top-of-the-line Hsu sub. I mean, wow!LOL)
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post #12 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 11:07 AM
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Just an observation. You emphasized HT and light music. Center tends to be utilized a lot in HT for dialog and LRs tend to be more utilized in music. You might consider switching your budget allocation and putting more emphasis on your center speaker
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post #13 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by palehorse View Post
The current plan is to add a second VTF-15H once the budget allows for it (maybe 6-12 months from now). I may also try to talk him into a separate amp, or two, if we think the towers are under-performing at that time. With that plan in place, would you still recommend the Ascends over the currently selected Emotiva's?
Well, in that case I would go with the Emotivas. I have owned Ascends before (the 340 and 170), and currently have the Emotiva B1 with C1 center. Have been extremely impressed with the Emotivas, and the T2 looks like it has about 20Hz more mid-bass than the 340s which will be nice if your dad ever listens to music with the subwoofer turned off.

My only quibble with the Emotivas: I'm not crazy about their Batmobile looks. So you might want to make sure that your dad will be ok with the Emotivas' er, "unique" aesthetics compared to the Ascends' more conventional looks.

PS. There is a second but equally significant advantage to doing dual subs aside from greater output: a flatter frequency response. This is where I'd ask Hsu for their input on whether to do two smaller 12" VTF-2 (if you have the space) as opposed to a single VTF-15...and just for a second free opinion, I'd email the same question to SVS, who are also known for dispensing honest advice.
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Large volume room...struggling with speaker selection.

Please delete...

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I would also recommend Klipsch or JBL horn loaded tweeters. They are affordable and do a great job in large spaces. While most would argue, I actually like the way classical music sounds through Klipsch speakers. I would however recommend two subs over a single. The reasoning behind dual subs is to assist in keeping the low frequencies omnidirectional as they are intended. So yes, two 12” subs would be a better option than single 15” sub.


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post #16 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 11:26 AM
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That is a very excellent point! My Dad is actually your exact age, and he's made it clear to me that he may not notice much difference in one subwoofer vs two -- based simply on the fact that he's never owned a subwoofer in his life. At this point, with his hearing naturally beginning to diminish, I am counting on the fact that ANY semi-decent bass will be enough for his needs.

My primary concern, as you noted in your reply, is the clarity and volume of dialog and vocals -- especially during quiet scenes. I know that I can increase the center channel output on the Pioneer after the initial calibration, but I'm just not entirely sure the Emotiva C2 will produce the necessary clarity/volume for his seating position that is approximately 16 ft from the front stage.

On another note, are ceiling speakers really an option when the ceiling is angled and 20 feet above his head?

Thanks for your great advice, I really appreciate it. It was great to hear from someone who has the same perspective as my own Dad!

(PS: On yet another note, it's always fun to do this kind of designing when it's someone else's money for a change! My Dad is ending up with some of the equipment I've personally been drooling over for years, like that top-of-the-line Hsu sub. I mean, wow!LOL)
"(PS: On yet another note, it's always fun to do this kind of designing when it's someone else's money for a change! My Dad is ending up with some of the equipment I've personally been drooling over for years, like that top-of-the-line Hsu sub. I mean, wow!LOL)"

palehorse, you are right. It is great fun--for oneself, and for others!

A few quick responses:
  1. I believe that ceiling speakers can help significantly in the Kit and DR. Esp if you choose ceiling speakers that have AIMABLE tweeters, to compensate for the ceiling slope
  2. My main listening position was 15'-17' away from my center channel, depending on how far back in the recliner I went, ha ha. Ambient music, moderate-to-low volume, reclining chair. How sweet it is!
  3. I agree with you and your dad. "ANY semi-decent bass" will sound absolutely splendid to him. As you can see in my signature, I use 2 Polk PSW505 subs. Bought the 2nd in my large open area almost as much for aesthetic balance and a place to park a settop box as for more bass evenness and uniformity. It/they replaced the large and powerful Outlaw I mentioned.
  4. One other thing: yes, you can increase the volume of the center channel relative to the other speakers in your setup process. Even better, with the AVR you have chosen, utilizing its DTS mode, you can have the AVR isolate and beef up ONLY the dialogue portions, so that the total volume does exceed his desired level.

Have a great time with this, and many hours of contented listening!
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Speakers: BIC America LH6-LCR and FH-65B, Polk RTi6, Infinity Primus P362, Klipsch KSF-C5
Subs: Polk PSW505 x 2, Klipsch Synergy Sub-10

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I would recommend that you take your dad to listen to some speakers. What sounds good to you (or to folks who are recommending solutions here) may not be what he likes or wants. So, load up some of that classical music he likes and get down to your local Magnolia (BB) or any other audio shops in your neighborhood. Be sure he listens to horns, soft dome tweeters, metal dome tweeters, folded ribbons, and planar tweeter types.

Get some feedback about his likes and dislikes before you invest! Flying blind is a recipe for crashing into a mountain!
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It's a VIRTUAL channel unless stated otherwise.
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post #18 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palehorse View Post
That is a very excellent point! My Dad is actually your exact age, and he's made it clear to me that he may not notice much difference in one subwoofer vs two -- based simply on the fact that he's never owned a subwoofer in his life. At this point, with his hearing naturally beginning to diminish, I am counting on the fact that ANY semi-decent bass will be enough for his needs.

My primary concern, as you noted in your reply, is the clarity and volume of dialog and vocals -- especially during quiet scenes. I know that I can increase the center channel output on the Pioneer after the initial calibration, but I'm just not entirely sure the Emotiva C2 will produce the necessary clarity/volume for his seating position that is approximately 16 ft from the front stage.

On another note, are ceiling speakers really an option when the ceiling is angled and 20 feet above his head?

Thanks for your great advice, I really appreciate it. It was great to hear from someone who has the same perspective as my own Dad!

(PS: On yet another note, it's always fun to do this kind of designing when it's someone else's money for a change! My Dad is ending up with some of the equipment I've personally been drooling over for years, like that top-of-the-line Hsu sub. I mean, wow!LOL)
I wouldn’t worry too much about the C2 center. Emotiva’s center(s) both the C1 and C2 are wonderfully praised here at AVS for having plenty of clarity. I don’t know that you’d find a much better option until $500-700 budget option. If your primary focus is volume and detail/clarity is very much recommend the Emotiva setup you were looking at.
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palehorse, one thing to remember about ANY speaker(s) that you get. Their impedance. 8 ohms is much easier for your AVR to drive. 6 is OK. 4 is asking a lot. Especially when combined with moderate to low efficiency. Zorba makes this valid point!
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AVRs: Denon AVR-X4400H, Onkyo TX-NR1030, Denon AVR-X3400H, Onkyo TX-NR646
Speakers: BIC America LH6-LCR and FH-65B, Polk RTi6, Infinity Primus P362, Klipsch KSF-C5
Subs: Polk PSW505 x 2, Klipsch Synergy Sub-10
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A few additional thoughts,

I was goat roped....errr, "volunteered" to help with sound issues with people of a "certain age". The first was a 71 year-old lady that suffered from some hearing loss from the flu at an early age then age related hearing loss. She wore hearing aids but wanted to watch Netflix without them. Didn't need high SPL or anything, but much higher than her TV could provide and she likes classical music, musicals etc.

Realized that the voice processing or "vocal lift" as some companies call it would work well for her so spec'd a Yamaha sound projector soundbar with "vocal lift" and various EQ settings if she needed more clarity. Just because, I pointed out the Yammie allowed a subwoofer to be connected if she desired more bass. She ordered it, I set it up, she learned about adjusting just the spoken word, EQ and so on--she was thrilled! That honeymoon didn't make it a day so I went back and she wanted more bass. Since it was a soundbar, high SPL was not required but she would like that it played all the "88 Keys" accurately--told her to get the Yamaha 10" sub since it does go down to 27Hz.

It came in, I did the setup and she threw in Bob Marley, some classical and bass heavy dance music. Her 18 year old niece stops by and she remarked her great Aunt had more slamming bass than her dad did. I also helped a friend in his late 60's to set up his HT system--he wanted to watch concert DVDs and such. His AVR sits at around 100 WPC but his mains are fully horned loaded and hit 103dB at one watt! Figured it best to get him a sub that could have a chance against the mains so he built a sub called "VBSS" which is based on an 18 inch PA woofer tuned to 20Hz with heavy DSP to protect it down low while hammering out serious output from 400 watts.

He really liked the sub... guess what? He wants more! The solution is a second VBSS and it was bizarre being in his house and watching the limiters light up on a PA amp driving an 18...

Grandma likes Daft Punk and Grandpa turned into a bass head with his first subwoofer. The interesting thing about both of them is dialogue clarity, if that did not work then it was an instant fail. The amount of EQ for the guy to be happy was rather extreme--but I suspected that so his center has a horn on it to handle any wild EQ boosting. It sounds very treble heavy with a rising response and will clear the ear wax out of your skull...but it is just him and that is what he wanted.

With HT for folks that required the utmost speech intelligability--the center is the center of the universe. As one guy here on AVS put it "The center is the main speaker with the others just being fluffers". Very true, the L/R just widen or shift the spoken word with the center doing 90% of all the work.

The other factor, you state he is 16 feet away from the center. At that distance, most music or consumer speakers will be such wide dispersion you'll be hearing all sorts of reflections which blur the spoken word. What type of floor covering if any? If he is running bare floors, you will have a ton of floor reflections and if he has plenty of glass windows etc--you might be approaching an echo chamber.

Just because of the distance, I'd look at waveguide or horn speakers--ribbons/AMT/planars can do the same thing. The point is to keep the sound off the floor so a narrow vertical dispersion is key there. At a distance like that, you could use actual cinema main speakers like the JBL 4722N used in small to medium theaters. Way over the top but the massive horn on that thing crosses at 680Hz so a "mid/tweeter" in actual operation and the massive horn controls the dispersion.

The last factor is the worst one--it is your dad, you can't get rid of him, he will be very honest with you and you have one shot at this! Personally, I'd use waveguide/horn speakers since they have extraordinary amount of durability, power handling and efficiency that heavy EQ on the high end won't cause them to compress, distort or blow up. If he puts a +6dB boost say at 4 to 8 KHz, that is 4 times the amount of power which tweeters might give up the magic smoke. For that reason, when dealing with people that require more EQ for the mids/highs than typical--I go for a very heavy duty driver that can withstand heavy boost without complaint.

My inlaws are 70 with hearing problems, they love my HT and always remark how clear the voices are even with the hearing aids out. Yeah, I do a rising response EQ with vocal processing to raise that up also. It is basically at the limit that I can stand but there is no distortion. The center uses a massive waveguide crossing at 950Hz with a monster compression driver that can take over 100 watts by itself without flinching. My mother-in-law remarks how it is the best sound clarity she has ever heard--makes sense, how many theaters or speaker systems are set up for people with hearing problems?

The very large waveguide/horn, a giant compression driver taking care of the upper mids and treble, little floor/ceiling bounce because of limited vertical coverage, carpeting on the floor with vocal processing/EQ worked perfectly for them. When they leave, I reset the processors/EQ and return it back to more accurate settings of course.

If it was me, I would get just a center channel by itself. Run it in mono with the spoken word, say TV news or something. Throw on his favorite programs and so on... in mono. One channel, the most important one that will deliver the thing he demands the most--worth isolating just it. Be very critical when listening, listen or measure for echo, reflections and the like--make absolutely sure that is exactly what he wants speech to sound like--make sure it has the SPL he wants. Then, get the left/right and surrounds to match or close enough to match.

Back in my PA days, I would bring a recording of men and women speaking--just talking. I'd test the various PA speakers for speech clarity first. I'd check the dispersion on an off axis to determine how well they did in the critical midrange. I have "trained/golden" ears with the spoken word, I have listened to it my entire life! Since people use just microphones for some PA gigs, the spoken word is a true pass/fail test so I use that concept when testing center channels. No music, no boom and sizzle... does the person talking sound accurate and how wide of a sound field will it keep that accuracy?

Explain to your dad first why you are just ordering center channel speakers--he wants it yesterday but doing things the right way take time (my dad told me that!) Once he gets the proper center to suit his needs and after you apply EQ to suit his demands--you are done with the hard part. Bass is rather simple, keep throwing more deep tuned subs at it to taste. Nailing ultra-clear speech from a center channel at 16 feet of distance for "loud HT action movies?"... that is not so easy. Enter the human element and that throws all the math into the blender.

Good luck and I hope your dad still likes you after the project is complete.
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post #21 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 06:10 PM
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My space is similarly sized. I have a SVS pc13 ultra and a pc13 dual sub setup. I feel like I want another sub at least.

If you like movies, my focus would be on the best subs you can afford and then the center channel.
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Quote:
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Looking at the math,

You need LOUD HT for action movies in a large room and will power it with an AVR--understood. The math indicates that the larger the room, the more SPL required. SPL is a function of speaker efficiency + amplifier power. The Pioneer pushes 135 watts or, to convert to a number that actually means something, you have +21 dB/W or +21dB of gain available.

According to your chart, the chair is over 4 meters away so throw that in the number cruncher. You'll gain a little for sound reflections but at the minimum you'll lose 10dB over the 1 meter SPL calculations. Then calculate for one meter SPL then subtract 10 dB for distance. (roughly)

Now to recalculate efficiency by using the poor sensitivity numbers of the Emotivas. They are rated 91dB at 2.83V but are 4 ohms. That is actually 2 watts of drive so subtract 3dB to get the efficiency at 1 watt which would be 88dB one watt/one meter. The Pioneer might, on a good day with a wind at it's back push 160 watts or so into 4 ohms which is +22 dB/W or +22dB of gain. Add the 22dB to the 88 dB efficiency and you get 110dB at one meter or around 100dB at the chair.

"Reference" level is 105dB peaks at your seated position, so at most you'll get -5dB of reference which is pretty good. The "reference" level for the sub is 115dB peaks which won't happen in a room that size with one of them. The term "loud" is undefined but if he wants it as loud as a THX theater, that won't happen with those speakers/sub combo.

To get more SPL requires more efficient speakers. The idea of throwing more power at them falls apart, if you want reference levels you'll need to throw +27 dB/W or +27 dB of gain which is 500 watts at them. That won't happen so the final answer is to use more efficient speakers.

The Hsu 8's will give you a little more efficiency, or you can look at other brands and designs of speakers to gain efficiency. The good news is you are using subs, you can get very efficient speakers that are smaller than a casket because they have no bass response that would make them huge.

The upside there are companies that make very efficient speakers for HT use, the downside is efficiency = big cabinets, large drivers and so on...not exactly inexpensive. For example, a single "large bookshelf" from Power Sound Audio runs $650 each, is a 10" mid-woofer 2-way and punches 95dB one watt/one meter at 8 ohms. Three of them would get you loud HT but run $2,000 for your LCR.

There are plenty of speakers available that are small-ish , made specifically for theater levels because they are theater speakers. Basically, they are the surrounds used in smaller cinemas and work very well for that. Here is a pair that is rated 97dB one watt/one meter, weighs around 21 pounds and can be mounted on the wall--has a grill as professional surrounds do since the public can see them.

https://www.spectrumaudio.com/jbl-83...-applications/

I don't personally use cinema speakers, I build my own and they look like... cinema speakers My wife is OK with speakers of a certain size but I had to build them myself to get them to fit into furniture (center) and end tables (subwoofers) so I went for high efficiency. Mine belt out 98dB one watt/one meter or higher at 8 ohms so I can use a simple AVR the entire family can use.

The sub question, yeah--good news and bad new on that also. The good news is you can add more subs until you get the SPL requirements met. The more subs you have, the more even the bass is distributed around the room which is also good news. The bad news is you have a huge space with all those additional rooms open to the subs so they have to pressurize those spaces also. A single 15 won't do it, think multiples but you picked a great sub to start.

Surrounds don't need as much SPL as your mains because they are closer to you and have slightly lower peak SPL requirements from those channels. Say you go with the 8350 for LCR, you can get "matching" surrounds that are 8" coaxials (much smaller) they have swivel mounts built in and run about $350 each. They are also paintable to match the wall color and so on.

Another option for surrounds is to build them. The DIY Sound Group Volt series are professional coaxials that you can build the boxes yourself, they can provide flatpacks with the wood pre-cut, they can pre-build the crossovers for you to make it "Assemble yourself" at $150 to $200 each. This is a great idea for surrounds, very simple to build with clamps/glue and if you want to paint match them to the walls, no problem there.

The DIY/AIY option depends on you or your dad, some people like building things while others don't. Just an option I'm throwing out there.

Good luck in your quest and in summation, you need more efficient speakers to fill that space. Have a great weekend!
awesome post. it should be a pin
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post #23 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
A few additional thoughts,

I was goat roped....errr, "volunteered" to help with sound issues with people of a "certain age". The first was a 71 year-old lady that suffered from some hearing loss from the flu at an early age then age related hearing loss. She wore hearing aids but wanted to watch Netflix without them. Didn't need high SPL or anything, but much higher than her TV could provide and she likes classical music, musicals etc.

Realized that the voice processing or "vocal lift" as some companies call it would work well for her so spec'd a Yamaha sound projector soundbar with "vocal lift" and various EQ settings if she needed more clarity. Just because, I pointed out the Yammie allowed a subwoofer to be connected if she desired more bass. She ordered it, I set it up, she learned about adjusting just the spoken word, EQ and so on--she was thrilled! That honeymoon didn't make it a day so I went back and she wanted more bass. Since it was a soundbar, high SPL was not required but she would like that it played all the "88 Keys" accurately--told her to get the Yamaha 10" sub since it does go down to 27Hz.

It came in, I did the setup and she threw in Bob Marley, some classical and bass heavy dance music. Her 18 year old niece stops by and she remarked her great Aunt had more slamming bass than her dad did. I also helped a friend in his late 60's to set up his HT system--he wanted to watch concert DVDs and such. His AVR sits at around 100 WPC but his mains are fully horned loaded and hit 103dB at one watt! Figured it best to get him a sub that could have a chance against the mains so he built a sub called "VBSS" which is based on an 18 inch PA woofer tuned to 20Hz with heavy DSP to protect it down low while hammering out serious output from 400 watts.

He really liked the sub... guess what? He wants more! The solution is a second VBSS and it was bizarre being in his house and watching the limiters light up on a PA amp driving an 18...

Grandma likes Daft Punk and Grandpa turned into a bass head with his first subwoofer. The interesting thing about both of them is dialogue clarity, if that did not work then it was an instant fail. The amount of EQ for the guy to be happy was rather extreme--but I suspected that so his center has a horn on it to handle any wild EQ boosting. It sounds very treble heavy with a rising response and will clear the ear wax out of your skull...but it is just him and that is what he wanted.

With HT for folks that required the utmost speech intelligability--the center is the center of the universe. As one guy here on AVS put it "The center is the main speaker with the others just being fluffers". Very true, the L/R just widen or shift the spoken word with the center doing 90% of all the work.

The other factor, you state he is 16 feet away from the center. At that distance, most music or consumer speakers will be such wide dispersion you'll be hearing all sorts of reflections which blur the spoken word. What type of floor covering if any? If he is running bare floors, you will have a ton of floor reflections and if he has plenty of glass windows etc--you might be approaching an echo chamber.

Just because of the distance, I'd look at waveguide or horn speakers--ribbons/AMT/planars can do the same thing. The point is to keep the sound off the floor so a narrow vertical dispersion is key there. At a distance like that, you could use actual cinema main speakers like the JBL 4722N used in small to medium theaters. Way over the top but the massive horn on that thing crosses at 680Hz so a "mid/tweeter" in actual operation and the massive horn controls the dispersion.

The last factor is the worst one--it is your dad, you can't get rid of him, he will be very honest with you and you have one shot at this! Personally, I'd use waveguide/horn speakers since they have extraordinary amount of durability, power handling and efficiency that heavy EQ on the high end won't cause them to compress, distort or blow up. If he puts a +6dB boost say at 4 to 8 KHz, that is 4 times the amount of power which tweeters might give up the magic smoke. For that reason, when dealing with people that require more EQ for the mids/highs than typical--I go for a very heavy duty driver that can withstand heavy boost without complaint.

My inlaws are 70 with hearing problems, they love my HT and always remark how clear the voices are even with the hearing aids out. Yeah, I do a rising response EQ with vocal processing to raise that up also. It is basically at the limit that I can stand but there is no distortion. The center uses a massive waveguide crossing at 950Hz with a monster compression driver that can take over 100 watts by itself without flinching. My mother-in-law remarks how it is the best sound clarity she has ever heard--makes sense, how many theaters or speaker systems are set up for people with hearing problems?

The very large waveguide/horn, a giant compression driver taking care of the upper mids and treble, little floor/ceiling bounce because of limited vertical coverage, carpeting on the floor with vocal processing/EQ worked perfectly for them. When they leave, I reset the processors/EQ and return it back to more accurate settings of course.

If it was me, I would get just a center channel by itself. Run it in mono with the spoken word, say TV news or something. Throw on his favorite programs and so on... in mono. One channel, the most important one that will deliver the thing he demands the most--worth isolating just it. Be very critical when listening, listen or measure for echo, reflections and the like--make absolutely sure that is exactly what he wants speech to sound like--make sure it has the SPL he wants. Then, get the left/right and surrounds to match or close enough to match.

Back in my PA days, I would bring a recording of men and women speaking--just talking. I'd test the various PA speakers for speech clarity first. I'd check the dispersion on an off axis to determine how well they did in the critical midrange. I have "trained/golden" ears with the spoken word, I have listened to it my entire life! Since people use just microphones for some PA gigs, the spoken word is a true pass/fail test so I use that concept when testing center channels. No music, no boom and sizzle... does the person talking sound accurate and how wide of a sound field will it keep that accuracy?

Explain to your dad first why you are just ordering center channel speakers--he wants it yesterday but doing things the right way take time (my dad told me that!) Once he gets the proper center to suit his needs and after you apply EQ to suit his demands--you are done with the hard part. Bass is rather simple, keep throwing more deep tuned subs at it to taste. Nailing ultra-clear speech from a center channel at 16 feet of distance for "loud HT action movies?"... that is not so easy. Enter the human element and that throws all the math into the blender.

Good luck and I hope your dad still likes you after the project is complete.
another outstanding post
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post #24 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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awesome post. it should be a pin
Both of his posts here have been pretty damn excellent. At this point, I have so much to think about that my brain physically hurts! lol

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post #25 of 39 Old 05-04-2018, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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A few additional thoughts,

I was goat roped....errr, "volunteered" to help with sound issues with people of a "certain age". The first was a 71 year-old lady that suffered from some hearing loss from the flu at an early age then age related hearing loss. She wore hearing aids but wanted to watch Netflix without them. Didn't need high SPL or anything, but much higher than her TV could provide and she likes classical music, musicals etc.

Realized that the voice processing or "vocal lift" as some companies call it would work well for her so spec'd a Yamaha sound projector soundbar with "vocal lift" and various EQ settings if she needed more clarity. Just because, I pointed out the Yammie allowed a subwoofer to be connected if she desired more bass. She ordered it, I set it up, she learned about adjusting just the spoken word, EQ and so on--she was thrilled! That honeymoon didn't make it a day so I went back and she wanted more bass. Since it was a soundbar, high SPL was not required but she would like that it played all the "88 Keys" accurately--told her to get the Yamaha 10" sub since it does go down to 27Hz.

It came in, I did the setup and she threw in Bob Marley, some classical and bass heavy dance music. Her 18 year old niece stops by and she remarked her great Aunt had more slamming bass than her dad did. I also helped a friend in his late 60's to set up his HT system--he wanted to watch concert DVDs and such. His AVR sits at around 100 WPC but his mains are fully horned loaded and hit 103dB at one watt! Figured it best to get him a sub that could have a chance against the mains so he built a sub called "VBSS" which is based on an 18 inch PA woofer tuned to 20Hz with heavy DSP to protect it down low while hammering out serious output from 400 watts.

He really liked the sub... guess what? He wants more! The solution is a second VBSS and it was bizarre being in his house and watching the limiters light up on a PA amp driving an 18...

Grandma likes Daft Punk and Grandpa turned into a bass head with his first subwoofer. The interesting thing about both of them is dialogue clarity, if that did not work then it was an instant fail. The amount of EQ for the guy to be happy was rather extreme--but I suspected that so his center has a horn on it to handle any wild EQ boosting. It sounds very treble heavy with a rising response and will clear the ear wax out of your skull...but it is just him and that is what he wanted.

With HT for folks that required the utmost speech intelligability--the center is the center of the universe. As one guy here on AVS put it "The center is the main speaker with the others just being fluffers". Very true, the L/R just widen or shift the spoken word with the center doing 90% of all the work.

The other factor, you state he is 16 feet away from the center. At that distance, most music or consumer speakers will be such wide dispersion you'll be hearing all sorts of reflections which blur the spoken word. What type of floor covering if any? If he is running bare floors, you will have a ton of floor reflections and if he has plenty of glass windows etc--you might be approaching an echo chamber.

Just because of the distance, I'd look at waveguide or horn speakers--ribbons/AMT/planars can do the same thing. The point is to keep the sound off the floor so a narrow vertical dispersion is key there. At a distance like that, you could use actual cinema main speakers like the JBL 4722N used in small to medium theaters. Way over the top but the massive horn on that thing crosses at 680Hz so a "mid/tweeter" in actual operation and the massive horn controls the dispersion.

The last factor is the worst one--it is your dad, you can't get rid of him, he will be very honest with you and you have one shot at this! Personally, I'd use waveguide/horn speakers since they have extraordinary amount of durability, power handling and efficiency that heavy EQ on the high end won't cause them to compress, distort or blow up. If he puts a +6dB boost say at 4 to 8 KHz, that is 4 times the amount of power which tweeters might give up the magic smoke. For that reason, when dealing with people that require more EQ for the mids/highs than typical--I go for a very heavy duty driver that can withstand heavy boost without complaint.

My inlaws are 70 with hearing problems, they love my HT and always remark how clear the voices are even with the hearing aids out. Yeah, I do a rising response EQ with vocal processing to raise that up also. It is basically at the limit that I can stand but there is no distortion. The center uses a massive waveguide crossing at 950Hz with a monster compression driver that can take over 100 watts by itself without flinching. My mother-in-law remarks how it is the best sound clarity she has ever heard--makes sense, how many theaters or speaker systems are set up for people with hearing problems?

The very large waveguide/horn, a giant compression driver taking care of the upper mids and treble, little floor/ceiling bounce because of limited vertical coverage, carpeting on the floor with vocal processing/EQ worked perfectly for them. When they leave, I reset the processors/EQ and return it back to more accurate settings of course.

If it was me, I would get just a center channel by itself. Run it in mono with the spoken word, say TV news or something. Throw on his favorite programs and so on... in mono. One channel, the most important one that will deliver the thing he demands the most--worth isolating just it. Be very critical when listening, listen or measure for echo, reflections and the like--make absolutely sure that is exactly what he wants speech to sound like--make sure it has the SPL he wants. Then, get the left/right and surrounds to match or close enough to match.

Back in my PA days, I would bring a recording of men and women speaking--just talking. I'd test the various PA speakers for speech clarity first. I'd check the dispersion on an off axis to determine how well they did in the critical midrange. I have "trained/golden" ears with the spoken word, I have listened to it my entire life! Since people use just microphones for some PA gigs, the spoken word is a true pass/fail test so I use that concept when testing center channels. No music, no boom and sizzle... does the person talking sound accurate and how wide of a sound field will it keep that accuracy?

Explain to your dad first why you are just ordering center channel speakers--he wants it yesterday but doing things the right way take time (my dad told me that!) Once he gets the proper center to suit his needs and after you apply EQ to suit his demands--you are done with the hard part. Bass is rather simple, keep throwing more deep tuned subs at it to taste. Nailing ultra-clear speech from a center channel at 16 feet of distance for "loud HT action movies?"... that is not so easy. Enter the human element and that throws all the math into the blender.

Good luck and I hope your dad still likes you after the project is complete.
I'll need some more time to digest everything you wrote -- I'll re-read it a dozen moor times -- but, seriously, thank you so much for the extensive info and advice. Your passion for this subject and interest in helping others, like myself, is truly appreciated.
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post #26 of 39 Old 05-06-2018, 04:14 PM
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My father has been into audio and home theatre for most of his life (first purchase ever financed was speakers, not a car!) and while he was visiting this weekend he kept commenting on my Dali Zensor Vokal center. He’s been a strict Paradigm owner since early ‘80s. Just wanted to throw in another name, since Dali is a lot less common here.

I do have the E2s and am happy with their output for surround duty — nice full sound, deeper low end than I was expecting, but I’m an avid Emotiva fan. Good choice on sub. I went sealed as I tend to mix in more 2.1 music (and not low volume) but HSU is great.

Good luck with the setup. I bet your dad will be thrilled with whatever you decide.
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post #27 of 39 Old 05-08-2018, 03:44 PM
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I've got $2750 to work with for the entire 5.1 or 5.2 speaker arrangement in this large volume room. The room itself is rectangular, which is nice, but it's very open to the rest of what you see in the sketch below (vaulted ceilings, no doors, wide openings, massive open foyer for split-level landing, etc).

The system will be used primarily for loud HT (action movies), but the owner (my father) will also play a lot of music at low/moderate volumes (primarily classical and classic rock) every day. The entire setup will be powered by a Pioneer Elite SC-LX701.

Here's my current plan, but I'm open to any/all suggestions:

SUBWOOFER: Hsu VTF-15H MK2 ($900)
FRONT L/R: Emotiva Airmotiv T2 Towers ($1000/pr)
CENTER: Emotiva Airmotiv C2 ($370)
REAR SURROUND: Emotiva Airmotiv E2 ($460/pr) (planning to experiment with di/bipole setting to see which works best in the large space)

TOTAL: ~$2730 + shipping

Please note that any alternative solution involving bookshelf speakers will need to include the price for stands/wallmounts in that $2750. Also note that, unfortunately, I can't wait for parts to become available on the used markets, as this entire system needs to be ordered in the next few days.
Gt from here
With all of the awesome new speaker options in this price range from Ascend, Hsu, Elac, etc., I'm really struggling with these sight-unseen selections.

Would I be better off with something like five CCB-8's + VTF-15H sub in this large space?

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Please and thank you!
I’d start with some JBL 3677 (L,R,C) - or new version C211’s, and some crown amplification. You’ll end up spending more money later anyway, so I’d start from here. The hifi gear mentioned will be crap by comparison the the JBL’s.

Bests

jR
x
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post #28 of 39 Old 05-08-2018, 04:40 PM
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I Feel Your Pain

I too am blessed/cursed with a large volume great room. Mine is somewhere around 6000 cubic feet due to sloped 20+ foot ceilings and it opens to pretty much the rest of the home. I currently run 3 hsu ccb8 up front C/L/R, two mirage towers I got off Craigslist for 50$, a hsu vtf15 mk3, a behringer eurolive 1200d, and my weak link a denon avrx13000(I need to upgrade this to a 4300 asap). Honestly even with the lame output of my receiver this theatre thumps. Does it “pressurize” the ridiculous space it’s in? Nope. That’d be asking too much honestly. But will it shake the walls and your seat? Hell yeah. I suggest you look into near field placement of your sub, it will make a difference from the main seating position. And I also suggest looking into if a mid bass sub is for you. My behringer really brought this theatre to venoms like levels, it sits right behind the main couch, and the tactile response is so theatre like. Since you have the pioneer receiver already you could do this well within budget, 1100$ for ccb8, 900$ for vtf15, 300$ for behringer sub and go craigslist/offer up for surrounds. Some might say it’s crazy I have the towers as rears in my setup but they’re perfect there, 4 inch drivers(smallish), not particularly efficient, tweeter are mounted on the top at just the right height for my seating so they just fit in perfect as rears.
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post #29 of 39 Old 05-08-2018, 05:08 PM
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I too am blessed/cursed with a large volume great room. Mine is somewhere around 6000 cubic feet due to sloped 20+ foot ceilings and it opens to pretty much the rest of the home. I currently run 3 hsu ccb8 up front C/L/R, two mirage towers I got off Craigslist for 50$, a hsu vtf15 mk3, a behringer eurolive 1200d, and my weak link a denon avrx13000(I need to upgrade this to a 4300 asap). Honestly even with the lame output of my receiver this theatre thumps. Does it “pressurize” the ridiculous space it’s in? Nope. That’d be asking too much honestly. But will it shake the walls and your seat? Hell yeah. I suggest you look into near field placement of your sub, it will make a difference from the main seating position. And I also suggest looking into if a mid bass sub is for you. My behringer really brought this theatre to venoms like levels, it sits right behind the main couch, and the tactile response is so theatre like. Since you have the pioneer receiver already you could do this well within budget, 1100$ for ccb8, 900$ for vtf15, 300$ for behringer sub and go craigslist/offer up for surrounds. Some might say it’s crazy I have the towers as rears in my setup but they’re perfect there, 4 inch drivers(smallish), not particularly efficient, tweeter are mounted on the top at just the right height for my seating so they just fit in perfect as rears.
I too have 3x CCB8’s across the front. Honestly I don’t foresee upgrading anytime in the future. I’m completely content w/ these speakers. Up until I got them especially while reading on here I always wondered “what would ‘X’ souls like?” But, now I don’t even contemplate that anymore.
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post #30 of 39 Old 05-08-2018, 05:13 PM
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You need LOUD HT for action movies in a large room and will power it with an AVR--understood. The math indicates that the larger the room, the more SPL required. SPL is a function of speaker efficiency + amplifier power.
IMHO another thing to factor in with room size as far as base outside the subwoofer which still is effected. Is woofer size vs room size. The bigger the room the larger the woofer needs to be along with larger subs and running multiple subs. Speakers are one of the most important parts of any system and if you can you might want to try and budget more for your speakers. The right speakers and the power to achieve the sound level you want in the room you have.

HT System: Marantz SR-8012 11.2 (7.2.4) Receiver, Sony XBR55A9F 55"OLED 4K HDR/Dolby Vision/IMAX Enhanced TV, Panasonic DP-UB9000 4K UHD Blu-ray Player, Toshiba HD-XA2 HD-DVD player,4K Apple TV 64GB, Speakers: Altec Lancing A-7's (L&R), Bowers & Wilkins HTM61 S2 center channel, Klipsch RP-600M Surround Speakers, Advent Marbles (Height Speakers), HSU VTF-3 MK5HP Subwoofer. AudioQuest Cables, Pangea Audio speaker stands.
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